Uk Ex-pats Pensions

[doctormann]

Just seen on Sky News that the UK ex-pats pension increase case has been lost. No details but I think that this was the final decision and cannot be appealed.

DM

[ukrules]

This does seem to be the case. A classic example of the government screwing people out of the money they are entitled to.

[brownknees]

This does seem to be the case. A classic example of the government screwing people out of the money they are entitled to.

About what you would expect from a bankrupt government in a bankrupt country.They have to save wherever they can.

[Penkoprod]

This does seem to be the case. A classic example of the government screwing people out of the money they are entitled to.

Your "entitlement" ends the moment you leave UK airspace, and head for \a non EEC country, or a country that doesnt have a recipricol agreement with UK, unfortunatly

Penkoprod

[ukrules]

This does seem to be the case. A classic example of the government screwing people out of the money they are entitled to.

Your "entitlement" ends the moment you leave UK airspace, and head for \a non EEC country, or a country that doesnt have a recipricol agreement with UK, unfortunatly

Penkoprod

That's the current rules, however when all these pensioners were busy working away back in the UK paying their contribution thirty, forty or even fifty years ago there was no such expectation that one day they would be quite deliberately be screwed out of their pension.

[JetsetBkk]

This does seem to be the case. A classic example of the government screwing people out of the money they are entitled to.

Your "entitlement" ends the moment you leave UK airspace, and head for \a non EEC country, or a country that doesnt have a recipricol agreement with UK, unfortunatly

Penkoprod

The "reciprocal agreement" argument has been shown to be false. But the UK govt. doesn't give a toss. No other EU country does it. One of the few times I can say "I wish I'd been born French".

[jesimps]

Exactly what I expected from the European Court, a lefty organization obsessed with giving positive judgements to PC causes.

I was demobed from the army in 1971, but because I only served 11 years I don't get a penny pension from the MOD. If I'd stayed on till after 75 (we didn't know this at the time) then all the time served would have been pensionable. Even people serving half the time I did get a pension if they were demobed after '75. I'm a member of an association of ex-servicemen who took this to the European Court, but of course we lost.

Because the Court is a left wing entity, they naturally hate anything military so we weren't too surprised that our claim was thrown out.

I guess the reason they threw this claim out was because there's no chance of getting votes from us non-EU expats.

[MB1]

This does seem to be the case. A classic example of the government screwing people out of the money they are entitled to.

Your "entitlement" ends the moment you leave UK airspace, and head for \a non EEC country, or a country that doesnt have a recipricol agreement with UK, unfortunatly

Penkoprod

That's the current rules, however when all these pensioners were busy working away back in the UK paying their contribution thirty, forty or even fifty years ago there was no such expectation that one day they would be quite deliberately be screwed out of their pension.

Reading the BBC website, below is copied and pasted from article http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/8568970.stm

I don't see where pensioners have been deliberately screwed out of their pension,

"If pensioners have moved to countries with a reciprocal arrangement - such as in the European Union or the United States - then they receive pension increases.

But if pensioners have emigrated to countries without any such agreement - such as Australia, Canada and South Africa - their pensions have been frozen at the level of when they moved overseas.

The Department for Work and Pensions welcomed the ruling and said the department's first responsibility was to support pensioners in the UK."

I might not be popular but I agree with the decision that their pensions were frozen at the level of when they moved overseas.

[JetsetBkk]

<snip>

I guess the reason they threw this claim out was because there's no chance of getting votes from us non-EU expats.

Exactly - we aren't going to return to the UK to go on a demo, are we? I said on one of the Pension Groups that we need to be more pro-active. Sod the courts, get everyone eligible to vote on to the register and make it public that we would vote for any party that promises to end this discrimination.

But this group is run - as would be expected - by old geezers who can't be bothered with all that radical stuff. They'd much rather waste their time writing to their MPs.

[ukrules]

I might not be popular but I agree with the decision that their pensions were frozen at the level of when they moved overseas.

I don't suppose you would care to explain why ?

Lets imagine a scenario where someone retires in 2002, claims a pension that increases slightly each year until 2008, then he moves to Thailand.

In 2009 and subsequent years it won't increase at all and somehow you agree with this and it seems fair to you ?

The amount of money paid into it over the years is still the same, the residential address of the pensioner shouldn't make the slightest bit of difference.

[Penkoprod]

This does seem to be the case. A classic example of the government screwing people out of the money they are entitled to.

Your "entitlement" ends the moment you leave UK airspace, and head for \a non EEC country, or a country that doesnt have a recipricol agreement with UK, unfortunatly

Penkoprod

That's the current rules, however when all these pensioners were busy working away back in the UK paying their contribution thirty, forty or even fifty years ago there was no such expectation that one day they would be quite deliberately be screwed out of their pension.

How is it that they are being screwed out of their pensions?

If you know the history of the pension system you will find out that your entitlement to a basic state pension is one that is based on your contributions....and ONLY your basic state pension. Any yearly increases are based on residency.....and its been like that for a LONG time. Since just before the introduction of the National Insurance Scheme.

Those are the rules....as unpaletable as they are. And now, at least we know what they are, and can live out lives around them. Cause they sure aint going to change for the better.........THATS fo sure !!!!!!

The biggest mistake was believing all the BS about it "being there for us when it became our turn" when, clearly is wasnt/isnt. And not just in pension increases either !!!!!

Penkoprod

[MB1]

I might not be popular but I agree with the decision that their pensions were frozen at the level of when they moved overseas.

I don't suppose you would care to explain why ?

Lets imagine a scenario where someone retires in 2002, claims a pension that increases slightly each year until 2008, then he moves to Thailand.

In 2009 and subsequent years it won't increase at all and somehow you agree with this and it seems fair to you ?

The amount of money paid into it over the years is still the same, the residential address of the pensioner shouldn't make the slightest bit of difference.

Scenario you give is that the pension increases each year until 2008, and then he moves to Thailand, the way I see it is that the guy in your scenario will be aware of this and knows the rules relating to inflationary increases only being given if moving to a country with a reciprocal agreement, thats how the rules are and the The European Court of Human Rights rejected an appeal from a group of pensioners by an 11 to 6 majority.

Why I agree UKR is that IMO EX Pats dont contribute to the UK economy in the way that pensioners who stay in the UK do and have chosen to live in a country of their choice and are probably aware of what it would mean to their State Pension when moving to a country that has no reciprocal agreement.

[apetley]

Guess that every few years I will go back for an extended visit of 6 months to visit what family I have back in the UK and get an increase to my pension.

[Penkoprod]

Guess that every few years I will go back for an extended visit of 6 months to visit what family I have back in the UK and get an increase to my pension.

Increases are only payable for the duration of your stay in UK. As soon as you leave again, the pension reverts back to what it was before you returned.

And i dont think i could be bothered to go to the trouble and expense of flying back to UK, just to get a measly few pence a week extra.

Whats the price of a flight...even now? 30,000 THB?

Nah.......i wont be bothering, thank you very much

Penkoprod

[thaibeachlovers]

I might not be popular but I agree with the decision that their pensions were frozen at the level of when they moved overseas.

I don't suppose you would care to explain why ?

Lets imagine a scenario where someone retires in 2002, claims a pension that increases slightly each year until 2008, then he moves to Thailand.

In 2009 and subsequent years it won't increase at all and somehow you agree with this and it seems fair to you ?

The amount of money paid into it over the years is still the same, the residential address of the pensioner shouldn't make the slightest bit of difference.

Scenario you give is that the pension increases each year until 2008, and then he moves to Thailand, the way I see it is that the guy in your scenario will be aware of this and knows the rules relating to inflationary increases only being given if moving to a country with a reciprocal agreement, thats how the rules are and the The European Court of Human Rights rejected an appeal from a group of pensioners by an 11 to 6 majority.

Why I agree UKR is that IMO EX Pats dont contribute to the UK economy in the way that pensioners who stay in the UK do and have chosen to live in a country of their choice and are probably aware of what it would mean to their State Pension when moving to a country that has no reciprocal agreement.

While it's true that expats don't spend their pension in the UK, it's also true that they aren't costing the NHS

huge sums to treat them for age related illness. As the vast majority of NHS patients are elderly, and the cost to the NHS considerably outweighs the cost of the pensions, it would actually SAVE the country money if it used any inducement to have pensioners emmigrate to countries where they have to pay their own health care costs, including annual increases. Can you imagine the chaos that would ensue if all the current expats were to return to the UK, demanding council housing and "free" NHS treatment for multiple diseases?

[davee58]

So no point in continuing the voluntary (Class 3) contributions.

[theoldgit]

It's pretty fair that as there is no link between NI contributions and the retirement pension my pension should be frozen at the rate I start to draw it, not quite why they say that I must have so many years of contributions before I can receive a pension in that case?

The court agreed that the expats made no contribution to the UK economy, apart from the tax I pay on my occupational pension, and has been pointed out by other posters us expats are not a drain on other resources such as NHS, heating allowances and the like, all seems a bit one sided to me.

The pensioners alliance think public opinion might be in our favour, I seriously doubt it, I think the majority of Brits don't give a stuff, they think we are all relaxing on the beach sipping cocktails all day.

So whats next, the government has to make some serious savings so maybe they will eventually refuse to pay pensions to anybody not living in the UK.

Edited March 17, 2010 by theoldgit

[theoldgit]

So no point in continuing the voluntary (Class 3) contributions.

Providing you have made the correct number of contributions to receive the basic pension, no.

[Ricardo]

Can you imagine the chaos that would ensue if all the current expats were to return to the UK, demanding council housing and "free" NHS treatment for multiple diseases?

Perhaps they should re-introduce 'work-houses', call them something like 'Care In A Community', and charge the returnees rent ?

[WeeGB]

It's pretty fair that as there is no link between NI contributions and the retirement pension my pension should be frozen at the rate I start to draw it, not quite why they say that I must have so many years of contributions before I can receive a pension in that case?

The court agreed that the expats made no contribution to the UK economy, apart from the £500 a month tax I pay on my occupational pension, and has been pointed out by other posters us expats are not a drain on other resources such as NHS, heating allowances and the like, all seems a bit one sided to me.

The pensioners alliance think public opinion might be in our favour, I seriously doubt it, I think the majority of Brits don't give a stuff, they think we are all relaxing on the beach sipping cocktails all day.

So whats next, the government has to make some serious savings so maybe they will eventually refuse to pay pensions to anybody not living in the UK.

500 a month tax ??

That would break my heart. I've read a few of your posts over the years, and you seem an decent, intelligent fellow, sorry to read you have to pay this much.

[apetley]

Guess that every few years I will go back for an extended visit of 6 months to visit what family I have back in the UK and get an increase to my pension.

Increases are only payable for the duration of your stay in UK. As soon as you leave again, the pension reverts back to what it was before you returned.

And i dont think i could be bothered to go to the trouble and expense of flying back to UK, just to get a measly few pence a week extra.

Whats the price of a flight...even now? 30,000 THB?

Nah.......i wont be bothering, thank you very much

Penkoprod

I was told by Pensions UK that so long as you were in the UK more than 6 months then the increase was fixed but upon return to Thailand frozen again at the uprated amount.

Agree with you that the increase is probably not worth the effort involved.

Just glad that I have alternative sources of income to fund my retirement when it arrives.

[tgeezer]

I was told by Pensions UK that so long as you were in the UK more than 6 months then the increase was fixed but upon return to Thailand frozen again at the uprated amount.

Agree with you that the increase is probably not worth the effort involved.

Just glad that I have alternative sources of income to fund my retirement when it arrives.

I get my state pension next May I come to Bangkok for five months in the winter, but if I were living here why would the government need to know? Is there some benefit to not residing in UK which is not being mentioned? up to now it has all been negative.

If you go to UK and stay six months and get an increase I should just not say anything again about where you are, you will appear to be in the UK.

[Penkoprod]

Can you imagine the chaos that would ensue if all the current expats were to return to the UK, demanding council housing and "free" NHS treatment for multiple diseases?

You would find that those "demands" would be met with the same outcome as the pensions increases.

That of "go forth and multiply"

Councils have no legal obligation to rehouse people who <quote> make themselves intentionally homeless<unquote>

Guess what happens when people sell their homes (or stop paying rent, for that matter) while realising their plans to fly off into the sun, taking their stash with them? They become "intentionally homeless" is what !!!!!!

The best they can hope for, is an LDA unit in some sink estate, full of low lifes, drug addicts, and thieves, or a one room in a large house full of other "one rooms" full of screaming kids, boomboxes blaring away at all hours of the day and night. Where the streets are full of broken glass, burnt out cars and the like. Etc, etc, etc.

Forget about any State Benefits....the visa financial requirement for Thailand is set at a higher level than the cutoff point for any means tested benefits you might "demand"

All the NHS have to do is keep moving you from waiting list to waiting list, but keep you "ticking over" with a few pills and minimal treatment.

Welcome home !!!!! A nice way to spend the autumn of your years huh?

Penkoprod

[StreetCowboy]

This does seem to be the case. A classic example of the government screwing people out of the money they are entitled to.

Your "entitlement" ends the moment you leave UK airspace, and head for \a non EEC country, or a country that doesnt have a recipricol agreement with UK, unfortunatly

Penkoprod

That's the current rules, however when all these pensioners were busy working away back in the UK paying their contribution thirty, forty or even fifty years ago there was no such expectation that one day they would be quite deliberately be screwed out of their pension.

Sadly, government pensions have always been finded as a luxury on the current account, rahter than being invested for as a future necessity. I blame the people who did not insist that the goverment set aside sufficient to cover its future liabilities.

I suppose that is what happens when you place your faith in future politicians who are still in primary school...

SC

[StreetCowboy]

Can you imagine the chaos that would ensue if all the current expats were to return to the UK, demanding council housing and "free" NHS treatment for multiple diseases?

You would find that those "demands" would be met with the same outcome as the pensions increases.

That of "go forth and multiply"

Councils have no legal obligation to rehouse people who <quote> make themselves intentionally homeless<unquote>

Guess what happens when people sell their homes (or stop paying rent, for that matter) while realising their plans to fly off into the sun, taking their stash with them? They become "intentionally homeless" is what !!!!!!

The best they can hope for, is an LDA unit in some sink estate, full of low lifes, drug addicts, and thieves, or a one room in a large house full of other "one rooms" full of screaming kids, boomboxes blaring away at all hours of the day and night. Where the streets are full of broken glass, burnt out cars and the like. Etc, etc, etc.

Forget about any State Benefits....the visa financial requirement for Thailand is set at a higher level than the cutoff point for any means tested benefits you might "demand"

All the NHS have to do is keep moving you from waiting list to waiting list, but keep you "ticking over" with a few pills and minimal treatment.

Welcome home !!!!! A nice way to spend the autumn of your years huh?

Penkoprod

You'll be glad that you set aside enough to look after yourself, then

SC

[Penkoprod]

I get my state pension next May I come to Bangkok for five months in the winter, but if I were living here why would the government need to know? Is there some benefit to not residing in UK which is not being mentioned? up to now it has all been negative.

If you go to UK and stay six months and get an increase I should just not say anything again about where you are, you will appear to be in the UK.

You would probably be OK, as you only spend 5 months out of the country..but only if you spend the other 7 months IN it, i would think

And, to answer you as to how themnot knowing......HERE'S how

Might be low risk at the moment, but, when financial necessity overtake political expedience, then expect these things to come into play, and enforced more and more.

How much is the UK in debt, i wonder????

It could well be that time, soon, methinks

Penkoprod

[Penkoprod]

You'll be glad that you set aside enough to look after yourself, then

SC

Its not a question of being glad i set enough aside.........or sad that i didnt, being the other side of the coin.

But isuppose i was lucky that i got MY kicks in the &lt;deleted&gt; from The State at an earlier age than those that think they will be provided for in their pensionable years.

It made me realise that the only person that i could rely on was looking at me in the mirror...allowing me to make plans around that person

The younger one is when thry realise this, the better it is, IMO

Penkoprod

[tgeezer]

I get my state pension next May I come to Bangkok for five months in the winter, but if I were living here why would the government need to know? Is there some benefit to not residing in UK which is not being mentioned? up to now it has all been negative.

If you go to UK and stay six months and get an increase I should just not say anything again about where you are, you will appear to be in the UK.

You would probably be OK, as you only spend 5 months out of the country..but only if you spend the other 7 months IN it, i would think

And, to answer you as to how themnot knowing......HERE'S how

Might be low risk at the moment, but, when financial necessity overtake political expedience, then expect these things to come into play, and enforced more and more.

How much is the UK in debt, i wonder????

It could well be that time, soon, methinks

Penkoprod

I shouldn't worry about any computer systems the government desires; the UK is being royally ripped-off by clever computer companies. The current projects which either, don't work or are years behind, include Regional Fire and Emegency Centers, NHS Computer, Farm Payments, Pay and Pensions Tax-coding. By the time any new system like this one comes on-line our kids will be dead, and by the time it works, probably grand-children as well.

I wish I could remember the official names for all these cock-ups because it sounds more impressive, also some figures would be nice but one thing I remember is that 100 people working on either, the farm payments or fire service system are getting 100,000 salary a year; I think that the farm payments scheme costs more to run than the farmers are entitled to, and they still haven't got it right. The fines paid to the EEC for non compiance would keep all the pensioners in clover for years.

[Penkoprod]

I shouldn't worry about any computer systems the government desires; the UK is being royally ripped-off by clever computer companies. The current projects which either, don't work or are years behind, include Regional Fire and Emegency Centers, NHS Computer, Farm Payments, Pay and Pensions Tax-coding. By the time any new system like this one comes on-line our kids will be dead, and by the time it works, probably grand-children as well.

I wish I could remember the official names for all these cock-ups because it sounds more impressive, also some figures would be nice but one thing I remember is that 100 people working on either, the farm payments or fire service system are getting 100,000 salary a year; I think that the farm payments scheme costs more to run than the farmers are entitled to, and they still haven't got it right. The fines paid to the EEC for non compiance would keep all the pensioners in clover for years.

You know what? It always amuses me when people dismiss these sorts of articles with the standard "don't worry about it" reply.

The same reply that was given 10 years ago.......... "dont worry about not taxing/insuring your car. You will be unlucky if you get caught"

There must be an AWFUL lot of unlucky people these days then!!!!

Once the DVLA went to a computer based system you can even be fined for having your car off the road and not telling them....such is the system they have in place.

Once they start using anti terrorist laws to fine/prosecute people for having their bin lids open, for lying about their place of residence to get their kids a decent education in a decent school outside their catchment area, or for fining dog owners for not picking up their dog's shit, i think IS the time to worry.....don't you??

Penkoprod

[richardjm65]

This is another fine example of the boys in the European club financially protecting each other. Of course, what it comes down to is prejudice - we will penalise you because you have chosen to spend your retirement in a territory of which we do not approve, despite the fact that you paid the same NI contributions as the other guys in "approved" territories or the UK itself. My perception is that it all has to do with the tax which the chancellor is NOT receiving from those of us living in the "non approved" territories. Think about this, of every 100 pounds that you are paid in state pension in the UK, you are paying tax back (in VAT and various other taxes), a very large percentage of the original 100 quid. Petrol, smokes (if you're still a user), all drinks, road tax and on and on it goes. Can anyone come up with a figure of what the real purchasing power of the pound might be, exclusive of the various attached taxes? My bet is that the true purchasing power of the pound, in the UK, is very small indeed.

And if we care to go further, into the disgraceful withdrawal of the NHS from those of us who have been overseas for more than a few months, I have an old P45 which explains to me that part of my NI contribution is destined for the NHS and the benefits which such contribution entitles me to. Except in an emergency situation, this no longer helps me. Guys, you've been shafted by the professionals. Don't ever believe that your country of birth gives a shit about you or anyone associated with you.

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