Thai Red Shirts Declare 'Class War'

[Samuian]

..............

Seems to me the rest of the nation pays to support the millers and middlemen,

and the farmers get the shaft either way. Pretty much disgusting.

...

It's the way it always has, been, the reds trying to exploit

this, as Mr.Thaksin has used the same people to lift him on

top of the pyramid scheme!

Unless there are proper reforms in place, no election,

no nothing will ever change this pyramid scheme, set

to support those who placed themselves successful

at the receiving end and let the others work for threepences...

some rice and more promises!

While sipping a Melon Shake at the Emporium or Paragon for a

days income of their supporters...who build their mansions,

the roads for the Cayennes, the rails of BTS, the tunnels for the Metro...

and supplying the Melons for their ice-cold Shakes.... for pennies!

and promises.... things need change... and as the looks of it, they will,

but this will take time, no blood, no grenades, no uprising will do and

certainly no snap-elections nor sweeping amnesties... this will only catapult

the country back to square one!

[Thai at Heart]

We also have the pricing problem of the stored and closer to rotting HUGE "Rice Pledging Stocks",

a hold over from Thaksin era rice scams that benefited the millers and brokers MUCH more than

the average Somchai selling his paddy. While there was 'some' intentional visible up tick to farmer profits,

because of this incomprehensible GOVERNMENT SUBSIDIZATION... now the inevitable quid pro quo,

of the plans instabilities has come home with the chickens to roost, and the held back over-stocked,

over-priced rice delivers a serious loss for 'the country as a whole' and now is threatening the market price....

Not to mention mixing in much cheaper 'neighbors stock' and 'substandard stock' with 'name brand' stocks.

So who is it that really MUST pay to keep the rice farmers in the black financially?

The millers and middle mend making obscene profits regardless of market,

or the vast majority of people running profitable business and paying taxes across the country?

Seems to me the rest of the nation pays to support the millers and middlemen,

and the farmers get the shaft either way. Pretty much disgusting.

I can't help but believe you are right. The millers and the middlemen take all of the profit and none of the risk.

I have to admit that I am not completely aufait with all of the policies that have been implemented in the Thai rice market over the years, but there is a large stock of product sitting that was subsidised by the previous government. What is for sure, is that you never here about the millers getting squeezed in the middle by the farmers and the market.

It is either the government or the farmer that gets it. The old EU system was a mess, but it meant that farmers had some kind of safety net for disaster, but could profit from demand in the market. It appears that the signals from the export markets have been completely removed from pricing purchasing in the Thai market. Then add in the surpluses that have been absorbed and there is a double whammy coming.

What is the price of Thai White Jasmine to the farmer this year? Export is about 1000 USD. I am sure there is plenty of fat on that bone to be played with.

[Sao Jiang Mai]

Talk about class war, did any of you see that fabulous Antoinette moment last week - Wednesday or Thursday - when Thaksin was giving his speech and told his followers that all TV channels, 3,7, 5, etc., were biased. And that if they didn't have the people's red TV they should, "stream it onto their blackberrys"! Classic. I don't remember exactly which day it was but had to wonder at his total doolaley comment.

Why is that a strange comment? He needs to point out alternatives in getting the news, when the commonly available sources are either biased or banned. Facebook and Twitter would also be excellent sources.

Or so you perhaps also buy into the mindset that only barefoot rice farmers support him who barely have electricity in their bamboo shacks, much less blackberries?

And how many poorer people do you know who have blackberries? (Since it is Thaksin's self-proclaimed class war, his audience, by his admission, is poor.) What a ridiculous statement by both you and Thaksin! The humour is not in the biased media, but in the fact that he thinks his audience own blackberries. Of course they have electricity, I am sure they also have mobile phones, but you honestly think out there in Isaan, or up here in the north they have access to good enough internet to stream into their blackberries? If so you are dreaming.

[animatic]

Buffaloe who no have hand computer, no care about truth!

Only care if owner feed buffaloe and shovel poop away.

Winnie that was as much an Antoinette answer as Thaksins original out of touch comment.

Since an Blackberry costs as much or more than many HOMES in the north east,

that really was a blindingly myopic pair of comments.

Edited March 23, 2010 by animatic

[hammered]

We also have the pricing problem of the stored and closer to rotting HUGE "Rice Pledging Stocks",

a hold over from Thaksin era rice scams that benefited the millers and brokers MUCH more than

the average Somchai selling his paddy. While there was 'some' intentional visible up tick to farmer profits,

because of this incomprehensible GOVERNMENT SUBSIDIZATION... now the inevitable quid pro quo,

of the plans instabilities has come home with the chickens to roost, and the held back over-stocked,

over-priced rice delivers a serious loss for 'the country as a whole' and now is threatening the market price....

Not to mention mixing in much cheaper 'neighbors stock' and 'substandard stock' with 'name brand' stocks.

So who is it that really MUST pay to keep the rice farmers in the black financially?

The millers and middle mend making obscene profits regardless of market,

or the vast majority of people running profitable business and paying taxes across the country?

Seems to me the rest of the nation pays to support the millers and middlemen,

and the farmers get the shaft either way. Pretty much disgusting.

I can't help but believe you are right. The millers and the middlemen take all of the profit and none of the risk.

I have to admit that I am not completely aufait with all of the policies that have been implemented in the Thai rice market over the years, but there is a large stock of product sitting that was subsidised by the previous government. What is for sure, is that you never here about the millers getting squeezed in the middle by the farmers and the market.

It is either the government or the farmer that gets it. The old EU system was a mess, but it meant that farmers had some kind of safety net for disaster, but could profit from demand in the market. It appears that the signals from the export markets have been completely removed from pricing purchasing in the Thai market. Then add in the surpluses that have been absorbed and there is a double whammy coming.

What is the price of Thai White Jasmine to the farmer this year? Export is about 1000 USD. I am sure there is plenty of fat on that bone to be played with.

The intersting thing is that the millers and middlemen (and moneylenders) are a big backbone of PTP. The interesting question is why do the rural poor side with these people against Bangkok based interests which are actually less exploitative than the local powers? If the rural poor broke the local exploiters they would be a lot mor liberated than if they manage to get a few more baht out of Bangkok while seeing even more go their local exploiters and remain exploited by now even more powerful people locally. It is an interesting study in how power really works.

[Thai at Heart]

The intersting thing is that the millers and middlemen (and moneylenders) are a big backbone of PTP. The interesting question is why do the rural poor side with these people against Bangkok based interests which are actually less exploitative than the local powers? If the rural poor broke the local exploiters they would be a lot mor liberated than if they manage to get a few more baht out of Bangkok while seeing even more go their local exploiters and remain exploited by now even more powerful people locally. It is an interesting study in how power really works.

I am not sure if they are exclusively PTP. They went with PTP, but the situation was the same before Thaksin even entered politics.

These so called "middle men" have been around for ever and have worked with whoever has been around at the time, and believe me they aren't averse to feathering the right pocket on a national level whenever it is needed to make sure they get what they need. I know a lot about one particular commodity market in Thailand, but little about the intricacies of the rice market.

I can see if well financed international companies were allowed in, they could take as much out of the market as they wanted just by financing the farmers fairly and they could still make a grand profit at export.

There must be a way to avoid the situation where cash flow on the farm dries up so the farmer must sell at a poor price to the middle man.

[Jerrytheyoung]

I come back on the Thai Constitution, unfortunately our comments have to be limited on this issue:

Taking into accounts the previous remarks, the PM is a Party leader and as such is engaged in one side against the other. How can you request Unity from him? It is a permanent organised conflictual situation.

[Thai at Heart]

I come back on the Thai Constitution, unfortunately our comments have to be limited on this issue:

Taking into accounts the previous remarks, the PM is a Party leader and as such is engaged in one side against the other. How can you request Unity from him? It is a permanent organised conflictual situation.

He is not bound by party lines as a party leader from discussing or uniting with anyone. It might lose him support, but the conflict is only in the context of party political lines. Why he want to reach out to the other side is for him to decide and if I was him, I wouldn't bother.

[anotherpeter]

I come back on the Thai Constitution, unfortunately our comments have to be limited on this issue:

Taking into accounts the previous remarks, the PM is a Party leader and as such is engaged in one side against the other. How can you request Unity from him? It is a permanent organised conflictual situation.

Theoretically, the PM (and the government as a whole) will do what they think the majority of the electorate want. That way the electorate will vote them into government the next time around. Sometimes they don't do what the majority want, but what is good for the country. Then they need to explain and cajole the electorate why it was needed, so when the election comes around they will still get voted back in.

You can never(?) get 100% agreement on anything while in government. That's why majority rules. And in some cases deemed important enough, only a "super majority" (eg >75%) rules.

[yoshiwara]

We also have the pricing problem of the stored and closer to rotting HUGE "Rice Pledging Stocks",

a hold over from Thaksin era rice scams that benefited the millers and brokers MUCH more than

the average Somchai selling his paddy. While there was 'some' intentional visible up tick to farmer profits,

because of this incomprehensible GOVERNMENT SUBSIDIZATION... now the inevitable quid pro quo,

of the plans instabilities has come home with the chickens to roost, and the held back over-stocked,

over-priced rice delivers a serious loss for 'the country as a whole' and now is threatening the market price....

Not to mention mixing in much cheaper 'neighbors stock' and 'substandard stock' with 'name brand' stocks.

So who is it that really MUST pay to keep the rice farmers in the black financially?

The millers and middle mend making obscene profits regardless of market,

or the vast majority of people running profitable business and paying taxes across the country?

Seems to me the rest of the nation pays to support the millers and middlemen,

and the farmers get the shaft either way. Pretty much disgusting.

I can't help but believe you are right. The millers and the middlemen take all of the profit and none of the risk.

I have to admit that I am not completely aufait with all of the policies that have been implemented in the Thai rice market over the years, but there is a large stock of product sitting that was subsidised by the previous government. What is for sure, is that you never here about the millers getting squeezed in the middle by the farmers and the market.

It is either the government or the farmer that gets it. The old EU system was a mess, but it meant that farmers had some kind of safety net for disaster, but could profit from demand in the market. It appears that the signals from the export markets have been completely removed from pricing purchasing in the Thai market. Then add in the surpluses that have been absorbed and there is a double whammy coming.

What is the price of Thai White Jasmine to the farmer this year? Export is about 1000 USD. I am sure there is plenty of fat on that bone to be played with.

The intersting thing is that the millers and middlemen (and moneylenders) are a big backbone of PTP. The interesting question is why do the rural poor side with these people against Bangkok based interests which are actually less exploitative than the local powers? If the rural poor broke the local exploiters they would be a lot mor liberated than if they manage to get a few more baht out of Bangkok while seeing even more go their local exploiters and remain exploited by now even more powerful people locally. It is an interesting study in how power really works.

hammered's analysis is important to any understanding of class interests.

It puts paid to red apologist claims that they are waging some form of proletarian class war against the bourgeoisie.

In short, the so-called poor are lined up behind rural capital in a fight against urban capital.

The ideological language used is one of a mixture of out and out populism mixed with ersatz Marxism.

The red apologists with their lower second sociology degrees might learn something for a change.

[Jerrytheyoung]

Cannot comment anymore.... Obliged to truncate....

[animatic]

hammered takes my argument to it's next logical point of analysis.

How can you rationalize the disconnect between the true local oppressors

and the actual oppressed and their affinity to fight WITH THEM ,

against an amorphous allegedly bigger entity, one that they can't connect with

to find a dissenting message? If you never meet these people,

then you can't find out truth about them. So an easy target.

It has to come down to a long term propaganda effort, sustained and pernicious.

[Jerrytheyoung]

hammered takes my argument to it's next logical point of analysis.

How can you rationalize the disconnect between the true local oppressors

and the actual oppressed and their affinity to fight WITH THEM ,

against an amorphous allegedly bigger entity, one that they can't connect with

to find a dissenting message? If you never meet these people,

then you can't find out truth about them. So an easy target.

It has to come down to a long term propaganda effort, sustained and pernicious.

one explanation can be find in the Maslow theory which explains that human needs are satisfied in order of importance. Once a need is satisfied, humans behave to satisfy the next level of need.

By circumstances or timing, 2 categories being at two different levels of needs, may have a concomitant research and an objective alliance.

Example: the Issaner peasantry is at the level of the physiological needs (food,shelter, sleep sex,) and at second level Safety and Security in the Maslow theory.

The Middlemen (Millers, traders) are in their search at the 3rd and 4th levels (Belongingness and Self Esteem)

Together they can fight the Bangkokian Elite in order to satisfy their needs if it is demonstrated that it is the resistance to their satisfaction.

It explains also why most of upraisings comprises Lower Class and part of a Middle class.

Edited March 23, 2010 by Jerrytheyoung

[way2muchcoffee]

one explanation can be find in the Maslow theory which explains that human needs are satisfied in order of importance. Once a need is satisfied, humans behave to satisfy the next level of need.

By circumstances or timing, 2 categories being at two different levels of needs, may have a concomitant research and an objective alliance.

Example: the Issaner peasantry is at the level of the physiological needs (food,shelter, sleep sex,) and at second level Safety and Security in the Maslow theory.

The Middlemen (Millers, traders) are in their search at the 3rd and 4th levels (Belongingness and Self Esteem)

Together they can fight the Bangkokian Elite in order to satisfy their needs if it is demonstrated that it is the resistance to their satisfaction.

It explains also why most of upraisings comprises Lower Class and part of a Middle class.

Are you applying Maslow to Thai politics?

[Jerrytheyoung]

one explanation can be find in the Maslow theory which explains that human needs are satisfied in order of importance. Once a need is satisfied, humans behave to satisfy the next level of need.

By circumstances or timing, 2 categories being at two different levels of needs, may have a concomitant research and an objective alliance.

Example: the Issaner peasantry is at the level of the physiological needs (food,shelter, sleep sex,) and at second level Safety and Security in the Maslow theory.

The Middlemen (Millers, traders) are in their search at the 3rd and 4th levels (Belongingness and Self Esteem)

Together they can fight the Bangkokian Elite in order to satisfy their needs if it is demonstrated that it is the resistance to their satisfaction.

It explains also why most of upraisings comprises Lower Class and part of a Middle class.

Are you applying Maslow to Thai politics?

Maslow theory is not limited to Education: it is general . To the Question Why 2 classes - with different interests abnd apparent struggle are joining against a third party... Maslow theory may give an explanation. Have you better answer to the question?

[yoshiwara]

hammered takes my argument to it's next logical point of analysis.

How can you rationalize the disconnect between the true local oppressors

and the actual oppressed and their affinity to fight WITH THEM ,

against an amorphous allegedly bigger entity, one that they can't connect with

to find a dissenting message? If you never meet these people,

then you can't find out truth about them. So an easy target.

It has to come down to a long term propaganda effort, sustained and pernicious.

one explanation can be find in the Maslow theory which explains that human needs are satisfied in order of importance. Once a need is satisfied, humans behave to satisfy the next level of need.

By circumstances or timing, 2 categories being at two different levels of needs, may have a concomitant research and an objective alliance.

Example: the Issaner peasantry is at the level of the physiological needs (food,shelter, sleep sex,) and at second level Safety and Security in the Maslow theory.

The Middlemen (Millers, traders) are in their search at the 3rd and 4th levels (Belongingness and Self Esteem)

Together they can fight the Bangkokian Elite in order to satisfy their needs if it is demonstrated that it is the resistance to their satisfaction.

It explains also why most of upraisings comprises Lower Class and part of a Middle class.

You really have no class analysis whatsoever do you?

You seem to have jumbled up your old sociology notes.

Useless then. Useless now.

Time to tie another piece of string on your wrist.

That will do the trick.

[way2muchcoffee]

Maslow theory is not limited to Education: it is general . To the Question Why 2 classes - with different interests abnd apparent struggle are joining against a third party... Maslow theory may give an explanation. Have you better answer to the question?

Yes. The millers and middlemen are making a healthy profit off of the farmers. Their lives are better than that of the farmers and they appreciate this. They realize that over the long term the Dems might actually disrupt the status quo and make things more fair for the farmers and this cannot be tolerated. Therefore they will work together with the already convinced farmers to support the parties they have always supported. They will do this because it is guaranteed that the traditional alliances and political parties in the N and NE will not upset the apple cart.

Edited March 23, 2010 by way2muchcoffee

[Jerrytheyoung]

hammered takes my argument to it's next logical point of analysis.

How can you rationalize the disconnect between the true local oppressors

and the actual oppressed and their affinity to fight WITH THEM ,

against an amorphous allegedly bigger entity, one that they can't connect with

to find a dissenting message? If you never meet these people,

then you can't find out truth about them. So an easy target.

It has to come down to a long term propaganda effort, sustained and pernicious.

one explanation can be find in the Maslow theory which explains that human needs are satisfied in order of importance. Once a need is satisfied, humans behave to satisfy the next level of need.

By circumstances or timing, 2 categories being at two different levels of needs, may have a concomitant research and an objective alliance.

Example: the Issaner peasantry is at the level of the physiological needs (food,shelter, sleep sex,) and at second level Safety and Security in the Maslow theory.

The Middlemen (Millers, traders) are in their search at the 3rd and 4th levels (Belongingness and Self Esteem)

Together they can fight the Bangkokian Elite in order to satisfy their needs if it is demonstrated that it is the resistance to their satisfaction.

It explains also why most of upraisings comprises Lower Class and part of a Middle class.

You really have no class analysis whatsoever do you?

You seem to have jumbled up your old sociology notes.

Useless then. Useless now.

Time to tie another piece of string on your wrist.

That will do the trick.

Obvoiusly we are not in the same class....

[animatic]

one explanation can be find in the Maslow theory which explains that human needs are satisfied in order of importance. Once a need is satisfied, humans behave to satisfy the next level of need.

By circumstances or timing, 2 categories being at two different levels of needs, may have a concomitant research and an objective alliance.

Example: the Issaner peasantry is at the level of the physiological needs (food,shelter, sleep sex,) and at second level Safety and Security in the Maslow theory.

The Middlemen (Millers, traders) are in their search at the 3rd and 4th levels (Belongingness and Self Esteem)

Together they can fight the Bangkokian Elite in order to satisfy their needs if it is demonstrated that it is the resistance to their satisfaction.

It explains also why most of upraisings comprises Lower Class and part of a Middle class.

Are you applying Maslow to Thai politics?

Maslow theory is not limited to Education: it is general . To the Question Why 2 classes - with different interests abnd apparent struggle are joining against a third party... Maslow theory may give an explanation. Have you better answer to the question?

I can see how Maslow would apply.

But it doesn't explain the disconnect for the lower of scale not seeing

that the middle scale are causing them more pressing and worse issues than

those that might align BOTH lower scale groups.

One wonders why they don't see the middle men stepping on their hands

as they grasp for increased self esteem and financially driven status

within the kow tow system.

2 classes against one, nah, 67 million classes against each other,every day in every wai.

And this might explain why those all in lower scales relative to 'elites'

might feel closer to those in their regeon, even knowing that

they profit on them so egregiously.

Well they may be torturing devils, but they are OUR devils.

Us against them,

just your not as high on the scale as I am.

So get your wai up higher...

[ballpoint]

Us against them,

just your not as high on the scale as I am.

So get your wai up higher...

Which is why I found it particularly ironic that one of the ways Thaksin chose to attack Abhisit was to accuse him of not wai-ing properly. The self proclaimed leader of the class war accusing his opponent of not treating his betters with the deference they deserve.

[animatic]

Us against them,

just your not as high on the scale as I am.

So get your wai up higher...

Which is why I found it particularly ironic that one of the ways Thaksin chose to attack Abhisit was to accuse him of not wai-ing properly. The self proclaimed leader of the class war accusing his opponent of not treating his betters with the deference they deserve.

And where IS that picture of Prem trying to

Not be forced to publicly wai Thaksin at Anupongs mothers funeral.

Great set of pictures. Thaksin has returned from his extened stay off shore.

and thinks bridges might still be mended, but picks the worst POSSIBLE location

to force a meeting with Prem and Anupong.

Thaksin is just trying to may Abhisit look like

an inexperience Thai person,

a farang with Thai face,

and disrespectful youngster all at once.

BOSH!

Didn't work except for the pre-convinced segment.

[yoshiwara]

There is one strange or rather not so strange feature of the reds declaration of class war.

There are no 'class' demands.

None.

Not one economic demand which represents a class position.

Now why is that?

I think we all know why.

Any class demand would cut across Thaksin's cobbled together alliance of corruption.

Not only that, if a class demand were presented then it would have an existence independent of Thaksin's situation.

Can't have that.

So there we have it.

A bogus declaration of class war and political demands solely focussed on getting Thaksin back (and his money back)

In addition...

the Thaksin apologists are left giving us 100% BS about the 'dispossesed', the 'ignored', the 'poor' and so on....

all of it bogus, none of it linked to any economic demands whatsoever and liberally sprinkled with second rank sociological nostrums.

Pathetic.

[quiksilva]

There is one strange or rather not so strange feature of the reds declaration of class war.

There are no 'class' demands.

None.

Not one economic demand which represents a class position.

Now why is that?

I think we all know why.

Any class demand would cut across Thaksin's cobbled together alliance of corruption.

Not only that, if a class demand were presented then it would have an existence independent of Thaksin's situation.

Can't have that.

So there we have it.

A bogus declaration of class war and political demands solely focussed on getting Thaksin back (and his money back)

In addition...

the Thaksin apologists are left giving us 100% BS about the 'dispossesed', the 'ignored', the 'poor' and so on....

all of it bogus, none of it linked to any economic demands whatsoever and liberally sprinkled with second rank sociological nostrums.

Pathetic.

Succinct and to the point, sticky this post!

[animatic]

How can a grouping of totally mixed classes and incomes,

all group together and declare a class war...

on whom?

There are so few that are above, in any possible sense,

the upper reaches of this reddened, arbitrarily constructed

group think of crocodile tears dissent.

Most at the top are parallel, at least in a nouveau-riche sense,

but may have been 'slighted' for being well heeled, but utterly crass in countenance,

and so now they wish, in the classic kow tow sense, to raise themselves

by lowing those who who found THEM wanting in several senses.

And since the sense that one can be raised by lowering another,

is a universal theme of those striving to be upwardly mobile,

it is no surprise that this faux construct of dissent can't find a coherent voice,

that doesn't cut as a double edged sword, their own wobbly pins

from under themselves as it hopefully does their enemies.

And then they have a uber-hiso speaker, apparently fallen from favor, who declares essentially;

The accusations against me MUST be false because I am richer than Thaksin,

so don't believe them, I am really with all you really poor people in your class war.

So group tattoo targets on your feet and render those wonderful machines nul and useless,

in an effort to step over those that would not see you with favor.

Edited March 25, 2010 by animatic

[Nuchanart]

The class war should not be in Bangkok. It should be held at the airport.

[Jerrytheyoung]

This is a fundamental turning point. I will agree with Animatic and Yoshiwara on the fact that if the Reds are unable to propose a clear platform of demands in linkages of the real issue of the northern people and lower income Thais, then the dimension of the Class War was only illusion and will fireback.

Red Shirts have to show what they have in their bags if not it will fireback.

Wait and see if Saturday bring an answer.

[scorecard]

This is a fundamental turning point. I will agree with Animatic and Yoshiwara on the fact that if the Reds are unable to propose a clear platform of demands in linkages of the real issue of the northern people and lower income Thais, then the dimension of the Class War was only illusion and will fireback.

Red Shirts have to show what they have in their bags if not it will fireback.

Wait and see if Saturday bring an answer.

I definitely agree with your comments about "....unable to propose a clear platform...".

You say 'illusion' and I respect you choice of word.

I say 'clever smokescreen' attempting to cover their real purpose: a pardon for thaksin and reversal of the numerous charges against him for massive corruption and masssive abuse of power and massive abuse of human rights, and a return to the 2006 constitution under which vote buying is easy and punishment is close to non existant.

Beware the clever smokescreen!

Edited March 25, 2010 by scorecard

[yoshiwara]

This is a fundamental turning point. I will agree with Animatic and Yoshiwara on the fact that if the Reds are unable to propose a clear platform of demands in linkages of the real issue of the northern people and lower income Thais, then the dimension of the Class War was only illusion and will fireback.

Red Shirts have to show what they have in their bags if not it will fireback.

Wait and see if Saturday bring an answer.

I definitely agree with your comments about "....unable to propose a clear platform...".

You say 'illusion' and I respect you choice of word.

I say 'clever smokescreen' attempting to cover their real purpose: a pardon for thaksin and reversal of the numerous charges against him for massive corruption and masssive abuse of power and massive abuse of human rights, and a return to the 2006 constitution under which vote buying is easy and punishment is close to non existant.

Beware the clever smokescreen!

These are the only objectives of the Thaksin reds in the current negotiations.

There is no independent class platform.

None whatsoever.

[lannarebirth]

Moved post to other thread.

Edited March 28, 2010 by lannarebirth