Bangkok: 10+ Dead, Hundreds Hurt In Bangkok Clashes

[vicco]

The propaganda war goes on and on. The army has stated over and over that it only fired into the air. Just about 30 mins ago I saw on French TV a video of 2 soldiers in the kneeling position firing directly into the crowd. They fired about 5 or 6 rounds each from what appeared to be standard M16's before they spotted the camera. Then they hi tailed it out of sight. The comment from the French journalist who shot the video was that the army did not seem to be telling the truth about what happened. He also taped injured soldiers including an officer but they had been injured by flying objects thrown by the crowd. Also watched a video on U-tube (shot by a amateur) where the reds are all dancing and playing music..even joking around with the soldiers....suddenly all hel_l breaks loose from the direction of the main body of troops....you could see the muzzle flashes of the rifles and hear the firing...everybody down...firing continues for several minutes...then you see some reds dragging dead or wounded people off to the ambulances or somewhere. Really ugly The truth is elusive it seems.

[deejay01]

People shouldn't underestimate the power of disinformation.

The disinformation which hurt the most the Red Shirt is about the allegations of corruption of Thaksin.

He is labelled as "Corrupted" so instantly relegated as the bad guy.

But as everything else, corruption is quantifiable.

People usually watch the superficial, official story and make up their mind with that. Corrupted=Bad.

The truth is much more subtle and complex than that.

Just like the Temasek-Shin Corp deal. People think Thaksin evaded taxes illegally. It is false. The deal was legal. Where he did wrong was that he used his power and political influence to bend the law to allow a foreign company to own a telecommunication company of Thailand, which was impossible before.

The other corruption accusations.. his wife buying from the IFDF, the appointment of relatives to key positions, etc. Those are relatively bad, but also relatively harmless. Someone overly by the book could argue that no corruption at all should be tolerated in any circumstances, but it wouldn't fit in the real world as corruption is practically everywhere, including in the West. We could argue that the US Republicans were infinitely more corrupted than Thaksin and that caused wars but thats another story.

This story of corruption was tightly knit by his opponents. This is simply politic warfare, nothing less.

The fact is, Thaksin clearly improved the living conditions of the often forgotten people living up-country. That is impossible to refute.

His opponents were mainly middle-class from Bangkok, who felt left-out with "region-oriented" policies of Thaksin.

Let's be frank here, Thaksin was a successful and ambitious man. Like many men in his position, he misused and abused his power.

But he's not worst than the others. He's not worst than the current prime minister, Abhisit Vejajiva who cunningly found his way to the top. Abhisit was also charged for a lot of corruption cases (bribes, inflated prices, conflit of interests and shuch) , with the difference that tribunal ruled against Thaksin and cleared Abhisit. He is still under investigations for other cases of corruption.

Let's not forget that Thaksin got ousted by the military, which is highly undemocratic.

The Commander-in-Chief at the time of the coup d'état was openly opposed to Thaksin (because Thaksin appointed relatives in the Army) and it explain why the coup happened.

Let's also not forget that Abhisit party got less seats than the UDD supported Pheu Thai Party and only got power because of a coalition of 5 parties.

How would you feel if the party who helped you get out of poverty, helped you to get better access to health care won the elections but didn't govern ?

Most likely, if you are politically active, you would be protesting in the street, like the UDD is doing.

Now are they right, are they wrong, that's not for us to judge, but its definitely justified.

[humfurry]

Interesting photo in the SF Chronicle:

What are they trying to hide?

Skytrains' services suspended at all stations

BTS authority has suspended service of all skytrain stations after red shirts leaders called for the protesters to destroy all stations.

Red shirts leaders told the cheering crowds that BTS is servants of Amataya, and urged the protesters to go and destroyed the stations.

Guards of red shirts protesters use black plastic bags to cover security cameras of skytrain stations near Rajprasong rally sites.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/home/2010/...s-30126917.html

Dunno, maybe they didn't want to be observed 24/7?

But well spotted - It is clearly evidence that the reds are against the law. If you want you can put in in your list why yesterdays action was legitimate and justified. Disrespectful to handicap the big brother to take care of them.

I can imagine many different ways to put a security camera out of order. The non-destructive plastic bags option was probably chosen to protect the cameras from fire water that would follow after the reds start to burn down the city as promised. q.e.d.

Naw... those must be fake cams

[ALLSEEINGEYE]

Putting a plastic bag on a street light should definitely give the army the authority to massacre their own civilians, you're absolutely right. Spot on, buddy.

are you really going to use that as your arguement? My God this is beyond ridiculous. For over a month the governemnt showed restraint and let these criminals run through Bkk doing whatever they wanted almost. You can CLEARLY see from the videos as the violence erupts that it was instigated by the reds. The facts are the facts and just because you want to ignore them does not make your propaganda any more legitimate. Stop attacking the military, stop laying seige to Bkk, and there will be no violence. Hard could you not get this ????

[473geo]

The answer is simple.......

The opposition to the reds shirts continually claim they are paid hands....

Ever heard the phrase 'he who pays the piper plays the tune'?

Apparently these people are easily bought (according to their opposition)....so 3k baht each to return home would not even make a dent in the billions confiscated from Thaksin

He pays for the return home of the protestors.....should you believe he was the cause....then quite ironic don't you think.

Look up the word ironic in the dictionary perhaps

Ok Irony "an event or result that is the opposite of what is expected".........obviously so far from what I intended must be very confusing for you.....

[ALLSEEINGEYE]

The answer is simple.......

The opposition to the reds shirts continually claim they are paid hands....

Ever heard the phrase 'he who pays the piper plays the tune'?

Apparently these people are easily bought (according to their opposition)....so 3k baht each to return home would not even make a dent in the billions confiscated from Thaksin

He pays for the return home of the protestors.....should you believe he was the cause....then quite ironic don't you think.

Look up the word ironic in the dictionary perhaps

Ok Irony "an event or result that is the opposite of what is expected".........obviously so far from what I intended must be very confusing for you.....

The only confusing thing is how do you figure that paying these people to do your bidding for you would be the opposite of what could be expected???

[deejay01]

Listen, it's very simple: Abhisit offered to had election in six months instead than next year or so. Why the hel_l the reds didn't accept this and been back their home, waiting peacefully for the new elections?

The reds don't want to wait six months!?! Well, okay, here is the price to pay SIMPLY because they don't want to wait: 19 dead, 807 injured.

If their leaders had accept Abhisit proposal all these people will not be dead or wounded. Abhisit tried everything he could to resolve the crisis peacefully, he could not leave a minority of people destroying the country's economy. He had to defend the law and not let the country going into chaos simply because 50000 people can't wait six months for a new election!!! Is this difficult to understand!?!

You want no more dead people? Accept Abhisit proposal and get the fuc_k out of Bangkok! It's just as simple as that.

With all due respect bagheera65, you would make a very poor political leader. It is not "simple" like you imply. The last legislative were in 2007. All Abhisit is doing is trying to buy time. Don't just think he does that from kindness of heart.

And by the way, the UDD is more than 50,000 persons. Those 50,000 persons are simply the vanguard of over 10,000,000 supporters of the PTP everywhere up-country.

[473geo]

The answer is simple.......

The opposition to the reds shirts continually claim they are paid hands....

Ever heard the phrase 'he who pays the piper plays the tune'?

Apparently these people are easily bought (according to their opposition)....so 3k baht each to return home would not even make a dent in the billions confiscated from Thaksin

He pays for the return home of the protestors.....should you believe he was the cause....then quite ironic don't you think.

Look up the word ironic in the dictionary perhaps

Ok Irony "an event or result that is the opposite of what is expected".........obviously so far from what I intended must be very confusing for you.....

The only confusing thing is how do you figure that paying these people to do your bidding for you would be the opposite of what could be expected???

oh dear you need a break.........paying them to disperse with Thaksins own money was to be expected? I think not.

[deejay01]

Putting a plastic bag on a street light should definitely give the army the authority to massacre their own civilians, you're absolutely right. Spot on, buddy.

are you really going to use that as your arguement? My God this is beyond ridiculous. For over a month the governemnt showed restraint and let these criminals run through Bkk doing whatever they wanted almost. You can CLEARLY see from the videos as the violence erupts that it was instigated by the reds. The facts are the facts and just because you want to ignore them does not make your propaganda any more legitimate. Stop attacking the military, stop laying seige to Bkk, and there will be no violence. Hard could you not get this ????

Your opinion is clearly biased against the red.

Calling them criminals disqualify your whole argumentation.

And the facts are that the military advanced toward the UDD to disperse them. In that way we could say that its the military who started it.

Another point of view is "disolve the government, and there will be no violence"

Try to check both side of the medals. You cannot pretend to be objective when you clearly take side, even if you find it astonishing that people don't share the same point of view as you.

Edited April 11, 2010 by deejay01

[ALLSEEINGEYE]

oh dear you need a break.........paying them to disperse with Thaksins own money was to be expected? I think not.

In Taksin's ranting speech a couple weeks ago when he referred to Abhisit as Hitler, and was surrounded by gays. Taksin also accussed Abhisit of paying the reds to leave Bkk, so not too unexpected. Considering these people have a long history of being able to be bought just doesn't seem too ironic but i do see your point. I guess we are just splitting hairs here. Peace

[changnaam]

Putting a plastic bag on a street light should definitely give the army the authority to massacre their own civilians, you're absolutely right. Spot on, buddy.

are you really going to use that as your arguement? My God this is beyond ridiculous. For over a month the governemnt showed restraint and let these criminals run through Bkk doing whatever they wanted almost. You can CLEARLY see from the videos as the violence erupts that it was instigated by the reds. The facts are the facts and just because you want to ignore them does not make your propaganda any more legitimate. Stop attacking the military, stop laying seige to Bkk, and there will be no violence. Hard could you not get this ????

Your opinion is clearly biased against the red.

Calling them criminals disqualify your whole argumentation.

And the facts are that the military advanced toward the UDD to disperse them. In that way we could say that its the military who started it.

Another point of view is "disolve the government, and there will be no violence"

Try to check both side of the medals. You cannot pretend to be objective when you clearly take side, even if you find it astonishing that people don't share the same point of view as you.

Why did the military advance?

were the "reds" going about their daily business, working, trying to better themselves and provide for their familes?

Oh............. no it seems they were holding the capital city to ransom. Closing major business, shopping and tourist centres. for the past 4 weeks we have seen this crap go on and on and get more boring every day. Where did you think it was going to end?

but go ahead, blame the military..... maybe it was my fault as well !!!

[tominbkk]

Yet another scenario might be.......oh wait....hmmm. maybe he got shot by a soldier firing live ammunition?

Would that shatter your reality if that was the most probable scenario?

If it was the most likely scenario, maybe, yes. Unfortunately it is as likely a soldier's bullet hit him as it is a red's bullet hit him.

[KhaoNiaw]

The truth is elusive it seems.

There is no such thing as 'The Truth' in a situation like this. There are many truths and many perspectives.

Did soldiers fire at demonstrators? Seems pretty clear that they did. Were there people amongst the demonstrators firing at soldiers? There looks to be fairly clear evidence clear on that too.

Who fired the first live rounds? Were the armed Reds 'fake Reds'? Was there a mysterious 3rd hand?

Who's going to answer those questions? Everybody probably. All with a different story to tell.

If you watch this clip from about 3.40 minutes, Redshirt demonstrators aren't sure who the shooters were:

Edited April 11, 2010 by KhaoNiaw

[tominbkk]

from the video clips bangkok looks like a war zone now dirty and filty!

Just one part of one street in Bangkok. Once the reds are gone, after a few days, the trash and the stench will go with them. Anyway, my part of Bangkok is clean and green. Everyone enjoying an evening swim....very refreshing!

[ALLSEEINGEYE]

Putting a plastic bag on a street light should definitely give the army the authority to massacre their own civilians, you're absolutely right. Spot on, buddy.

are you really going to use that as your arguement? My God this is beyond ridiculous. For over a month the governemnt showed restraint and let these criminals run through Bkk doing whatever they wanted almost. You can CLEARLY see from the videos as the violence erupts that it was instigated by the reds. The facts are the facts and just because you want to ignore them does not make your propaganda any more legitimate. Stop attacking the military, stop laying seige to Bkk, and there will be no violence. Hard could you not get this ????

Your opinion is clearly biased against the red.

Calling them criminals disqualify your whole argumentation.

And the facts are that the military advanced toward the UDD to disperse them. In that way we could say that its the military who started it.

Another point of view is "disolve the government, and there will be no violence"

Try to check both side of the medals. You cannot pretend to be objective when you clearly take side, even if you find it astonishing that people don't share the same point of view as you.

Criminals are those that break laws and the reds are clearly doing just that. The army did advance but PLEASE view the videos to see who really instigated the violence. There are several good clips showing the front line.

I in no way wanted to see violence or see anyone get killed or wounded. The videos show the reds going full out on the military before the military even got to the barracades.

I do however welcome other points of view but not when they are cheap propaganda without base in fact. If i would have seen in those videos that the army just went and started shooting at peaceful people doing a sit in, then whether you believe it or not I would be fully supporting your arguements along with you.

The facts as I have viewed them do not spport your claims so I therefore do not either. If the facts change so will my support.

[tominbkk]

Is it safe to assume that there is nobody at the steering wheel in Thailand at the moment? Abhisit is unable to enforce the arrest warrants he issued and he's unable to keep peace.

So hypocritical....when he shows tolerance to the country bumpkins, you state he is not in control. When he cracks down a little, you state he is a dictator. Believe me, his knowledge of running a country flies circles around your knowledge, many times over!

[angiud]

And by the way, the UDD is more than 50,000 persons. Those 50,000 persons are simply the vanguard of over 10,000,000 supporters of the PTP everywhere up-country.

In your wettest dream only.

C'mon. Wake up.

[humfurry]

Yet another scenario might be.......oh wait....hmmm. maybe he got shot by a soldier firing live ammunition?

Would that shatter your reality if that was the most probable scenario?

If it was the most likely scenario, maybe, yes. Unfortunately it is as likely a soldier's bullet hit him as it is a red's bullet hit him.

Well there were what looked like AK 47s in the Red cam from what I saw on the news clips. One particularly silly looking fellow was wearing all black and letting the muzzle of his rifle drag against the street.

Another silly thing is how did the reds get those bodies back? Shouldn't their be autopsies? Maybe they were afraid that the rounds recovered wouldn't be military issue?

Edited April 11, 2010 by humfurry

[tominbkk]

The propaganda war goes on and on. The army has stated over and over that it only fired into the air. Just about 30 mins ago I saw on French TV a video of 2 soldiers in the kneeling position firing directly into the crowd. They fired about 5 or 6 rounds each from what appeared to be standard M16's before they spotted the camera. Then they hi tailed it out of sight. The comment from the French journalist who shot the video was that the army did not seem to be telling the truth about what happened. He also taped injured soldiers including an officer but they had been injured by flying objects thrown by the crowd. Also watched a video on U-tube (shot by a amateur) where the reds are all dancing and playing music..even joking around with the soldiers....suddenly all hel_l breaks loose from the direction of the main body of troops....you could see the muzzle flashes of the rifles and hear the firing...everybody down...firing continues for several minutes...then you see some reds dragging dead or wounded people off to the ambulances or somewhere. Really ugly The truth is elusive it seems.

How conveniently you leave out the multiple molotov cocktails hurled into the crowd of soldiers, which is what started them firing in the first place. do that to almost any battalion of soldiers anywhere in the world and see what happens to your sorry a$$!

[britmaveric]

There is more to this than the obvious - paid protesters do not die for smth they do not believe in. They die for a cause. There is blood on everyone's hands - govt/red shirts/military. Let's hope common sense on all sides will come into play and thailand can be a peaceful place again.

[sjaak327]

Putting a plastic bag on a street light should definitely give the army the authority to massacre their own civilians, you're absolutely right. Spot on, buddy.

are you really going to use that as your arguement? My God this is beyond ridiculous. For over a month the governemnt showed restraint and let these criminals run through Bkk doing whatever they wanted almost. You can CLEARLY see from the videos as the violence erupts that it was instigated by the reds. The facts are the facts and just because you want to ignore them does not make your propaganda any more legitimate. Stop attacking the military, stop laying seige to Bkk, and there will be no violence. Hard could you not get this ????

Your opinion is clearly biased against the red.

Calling them criminals disqualify your whole argumentation.

And the facts are that the military advanced toward the UDD to disperse them. In that way we could say that its the military who started it.

Another point of view is "disolve the government, and there will be no violence"

Try to check both side of the medals. You cannot pretend to be objective when you clearly take side, even if you find it astonishing that people don't share the same point of view as you.

Why did the military advance?

were the "reds" going about their daily business, working, trying to better themselves and provide for their familes?

Oh............. no it seems they were holding the capital city to ransom. Closing major business, shopping and tourist centres. for the past 4 weeks we have seen this crap go on and on and get more boring every day. Where did you think it was going to end?

but go ahead, blame the military..... maybe it was my fault as well !!!

I seem to remember some other people doing exactly what you described, although they were at it a lot longer then one month, and they caused a lot more damage as well. Strange that one group of people all of sudden receive a whole lot of different treatment, but I guess that this is exactly what the conflict is really about.

[tominbkk]

Your opinion is clearly biased against the red.

Calling them criminals disqualify your whole argumentation.

They tried to raid an army headquarters to kill soldiers.

They threatened to derail the BTS while people were commuting.

They threw molotov cocktails into troops.

You wouldn't call these criminal actions?

I would list another hundred things they did but those three are pretty good qualifications for me, especially when a SOE is in place.

The country bumpkins were lucky they just didn't mow them all down.

[britmaveric]

^most of the army is country bumpkins so I doubt they will mow their own people down.

[mrtoad]

There is more to this than the obvious - paid protesters do not die for smth they do not believe in. They die for a cause. There is blood on everyone's hands - govt/red shirts/military. Let's hope common sense on all sides will come into play and thailand can be a peaceful place again.

Hopefully out of this tragedy, some real democratic champions will appear - and consign the likes of Jatuporn, Arisman, Thaksin , military, yellow shirts and those that are "invisible" to the dustbin. The sad thing is, that probably the majority of people in this country support neither red or yellow - but would certainly support an inclusive political party that has no ties to all the old established corrupt, power hungry political cliques.

[sjaak327]

Your opinion is clearly biased against the red.

Calling them criminals disqualify your whole argumentation.

They tried to raid an army headquarters to kill soldiers.

They threatened to derail the BTS while people were commuting.

They threw molotov cocktails into troops.

You wouldn't call these criminal actions?

I would list another hundred things they did but those three are pretty good qualifications for me, especially when a SOE is in place.

The country bumpkins were lucky they just didn't mow them all down.

Shameless post.

[deejay01]

Why did the military advance?

were the "reds" going about their daily business, working, trying to better themselves and provide for their familes?

Oh............. no it seems they were holding the capital city to ransom. Closing major business, shopping and tourist centres. for the past 4 weeks we have seen this crap go on and on and get more boring every day. Where did you think it was going to end?

but go ahead, blame the military..... maybe it was my fault as well !!!

Let's not try to point fingers at one or another, we both know that this is a manifestation, not something we see everyday.

In the first weeks it was a very simple peaceful manifestation. Of course like in every large crowd, there is extremists people who do bad things, but we cannot blame the whole group for this. It's a democratic right to manifest. It's not so different than worker unions going on strike and perturbating the traffic. The situation clearly deteriorated in the last few days when the state of emergency was declared.

Those red shirts, fundamentally, are fighting for an improvement in their lifestyle. But individually, some are there just to be a part of it and are totally ignorant of what they really fighting for. They say "WE FIGHT FOR DEMOCRACY". Many of them are uneducated morons.

The leaders have political motivations and try to pressure the government to lean on their way. They won't back down so easily, until they see no hope.

The soldiers, individually, are simply doing their job and trying to bring back peace in the city. It's 100% honorable. What I question is the competence of the government in trying to solve that thing. What the use to advance on them to disperse them ? They definitely had very bad intel and underestimated the capacity of resistance of the Red to order such a thing. They wanted to recover the commercial zone for economics reasons. They failed to do that. So that clash was absolutly useless and just make things heat up even more.

What does each side do now ? They just build-up more firepower I guess (its pretty irrelevant for the army as they are already well geared but they definitely consider using a new scale of retaliation)

When a government is a coalition against the biggest party out there, don't they expect uprising ? Especially in Thailand ?

The government is a weak one who can break any moment. The red gonna keep on pressuring until they got what they want or that they lose their morale.

Edited April 11, 2010 by deejay01

[britmaveric]

There is more to this than the obvious - paid protesters do not die for smth they do not believe in. They die for a cause. There is blood on everyone's hands - govt/red shirts/military. Let's hope common sense on all sides will come into play and thailand can be a peaceful place again.

Hopefully out of this tragedy, some real democratic champions will appear - and consign the likes of Jatuporn, Arisman, Thaksin , military, yellow shirts and those that are "invisible" to the dustbin. The sad thing is, that probably the majority of people in this country support neither red or yellow - but would certainly support an inclusive political party that has no ties to all the old established corrupt, power hungry political cliques.

I agree Khun Toad - lock the red leaders, abhisit/cohorts and the military leaders w/Khun T all in the monkey house. They all are to blame for this BS.

[tominbkk]

Your opinion is clearly biased against the red.

Calling them criminals disqualify your whole argumentation.

They tried to raid an army headquarters to kill soldiers.

They threatened to derail the BTS while people were commuting.

They threw molotov cocktails into troops.

You wouldn't call these criminal actions?

I would list another hundred things they did but those three are pretty good qualifications for me, especially when a SOE is in place.

The country bumpkins were lucky they just didn't mow them all down.

[humfurry]

Your opinion is clearly biased against the red.

Calling them criminals disqualify your whole argumentation.

They tried to raid an army headquarters to kill soldiers.

They threatened to derail the BTS while people were commuting.

They threw molotov cocktails into troops.

You wouldn't call these criminal actions?

I would list another hundred things they did but those three are pretty good qualifications for me, especially when a SOE is in place.

The country bumpkins were lucky they just didn't mow them all down.

You could add... putting gasoline bombs on a propane truck in Din Daeng Flats and sending burning buses at the army at Victory Monument... but that would have been a year ago... I just don't know where these bleeding hearts get their Machiavellian attitude? That's usually the exclusive domain of conservative bastards.

[FarangCravings]

The answer is simple.......

The opposition to the reds shirts continually claim they are paid hands....

Ever heard the phrase 'he who pays the piper plays the tune'?

Apparently these people are easily bought (according to their opposition)....so 3k baht each to return home would not even make a dent in the billions confiscated from Thaksin

He pays for the return home of the protestors.....should you believe he was the cause....then quite ironic don't you think.

Look up the word ironic in the dictionary perhaps

Ok Irony "an event or result that is the opposite of what is expected".........obviously so far from what I intended must be very confusing for you.....

The irony is for Toxin: Sending home his protesters with his funds?

I have a better idea that would really piss him off. Use those confiscated funds to but a HUGE monument to honor the coup that overthrew him!

Yeah but we know where his money is really going and thats into the Yellows pockets and make the elitists even richer than they already are. funny how since they care so much for the poor thay have not said we will use the money and make the poors life a little better.

Nope I think a new Merc sounds much better