What If The Red Shirts Win?

[Jingthing]

I never said left wing Americans tend to be pro yellow! I said they tend to be anti-red and specifically anti-Thaksin. They are not the same thing, at all. Left wing Americans are very moderate by world standards, but the things Thaksin has stood for are truly disgusting to American left wingers --

-- strong moves to stifle all critical press

-- his BULLY behavior in press conferences, very Mussolini like indeed

-- strong moves to become an anti-democratic strong man dictator

-- mass murders during the drug war

-- anti-intellectual, strong man personality (right or left this disgusts American left wingers)

-- how he has acted after exile, basically criminally (look at Black Songkran and the current nastiness, he made all of that happen, without his money and open and tacit support, it never would have)

It has nothing to do with capitalism. American left wingers are pro capitalist but believe reasonable government restraints of a complete laissez-faire system are needed, the lack of them started by Reagan and finished by the Bushes led to the recent international financial meltdown (which we may now be recovering from).

I don't know what is going to happen if the reds prevail, and neither does anyone else. However, I truly think people who believe this will lead a free democratic nirvana and a wonderful new life for the Thai poor are smoking some strong stuff. I find that outcome given the thuggish violent aspects of how they may win to be be basically IMPOSSIBLE.

[Pakboong]

3. Often times I have seen her loan money to people in villages around her family home. When we returned to visit with her family she had washed the yellow shirts we had worn at the rally a few nights before and hung then to dry. 2 people that both owed her money stopped by, I think to ask for more time, but when they saw the yellow shirts, they starting expressing some very negative words about the PAD. Normally she is a generous person and would have told them OK 2 more years, you work your land, give my 25% and save to pay me back. Well this time she told them "NO....Go ask Thakin to help you", took the land and kicked them off. I tried to talk to her a bit about this, but I have learned I do not get into fights over things that do not directly effect me. He mind was made up.."If these 2 buffalo brains do not love my King, then they should not have land in his Kingdom." Normally she is generous. A few years ago everybody in the village was in trouble about money, so she bought all the silk in the village to help them out. (We still have boxes of material sitting around).

So your wife charges 25% yearly interest to poor peasants (that's just 1800 basis points above average lending rate after all ) and then sends the proceeds to the PAD "to help her King" who btw has an extimated wealth of 36 billion $.

What can I say ... I'm speechless

Sounds like plain old usury to me. One of the alleged crimes of the so called elites. There are few impoverished cultures who could ever look upon usury favorably. The term "off with their heads" comes to mind.

The notion that the elites, through usury, will eventually own all the land is a major bone of contention in the struggle and here is an admission. All money lenders see themselves as generous. If they weren't generous, they wouldn't lend right???

[Pakboong]

I like how the OP tries to compare Zimbabwe to Thailand.

No, Zimbabwe was run by Euro thief outsiders, who had no business in Zimbabwe other than to oppress and steal from the Native African people. When the people finally did rise up on their own, with a leader from within their ranks. Angry white run nations threw tons of trade sanctions on them, which is the real reason why their economy dropped.

In Thailand it's all about the Thais. Their is no colonial structure here holding the Thai people down.

Well Huey,

That is a pretty Pollyanna attitude of yours. I have visited, hunted, and had friends living in Rhodesia, and considered moving there myself, so my observation are just not from some book or obscure article I read, but from real life experiences.

1. The Rhodesian citizens that were born there for numerous generations were were hardly "Euro thief outsiders". The vast majority of what is now Zimbabwe population migrated to this area for the jobs and higher standard of living it afforded them.

2. The sanctions only came when the current government started to seize their property and expelled them from their country..Most held no other passport except for Rhodesian/Zimbabwe. In sort Africans do what they do so well and conducted an "ethnic cleansing", thus bringing sanctions on themselves for conduct that is universally repudiated.

3. Even without the sanctions, those that took possession of vast productive farms, were unable to even feed their family's from what before was feeding the whole country and exporting food to other countries, thus bring prosperity, jobs, and a much higher standard of living nation wide than what you find there today.

Thaskin and his party Thai rak Thai (Thai's love Thai's) was moving in this direction when he was ousted....so I stand by my link between the 2 societies.

If you have any real life experiences to bring to the table to talk about please do. We have all heard the academic crap that is passed around as facts.

Well said.. blacks and Thais have a lot in common always blame foreigners whites for their problems. Yes i generalize but that poster asked for it.

Please, blaming the "white man" for our problems is like blaming a Kleptomaniac for stealing. Yes a Klepto steals but crying about it isn't going to stop him you just have to find a way to tighten your defenses.

Secondly I stand by what I said about Euro Thief outsiders, considering 2% of the population (whites) owned 70% of the airable land. And on top of that they made it illeagle to publicly speak the truth about Great Zimbabwe's national heritage. (Large castles and complex international Trade some 800-500 years ago).

Paul Sinclair, A museum curator during the occupation, recounts

"I was the archaeologist stationed at Great Zimbabwe. I was told by the then-director of the Museums and Monuments organization to be extremely careful about talking to the press about the origins of the [Great] Zimbabwe state. I was told that the museum service was in a difficult situation, that the government was pressurizing them to withhold the correct information. Censorship of guidebooks, museum displays, school textbooks, radio programes, newspapers and films was a daily occurrence. Once a member of the Museum Board of Trustees threatened me with losing my job if I said publicly that blacks had built Zimbabwe. He said it was okay to say the yellow people had built it, but I wasn't allowed to mention radio carbon dates... It was the first time since Germany in the thirties that archaeology has been so directly censored."

It wasn't enough for the scum bags to steal the African's land but for a time they stole something even more valuable, their heritage.

This is why I say there is no parallel between Zimbabwe and Thailand.

Thai's know very well their heritage, and foreign land ownership is minimal. This is a struggle against themselves, not against a occupying force of foreign thieves.

Huey, the chubby Buddha guys will soon own all the land. It might take a few more generations but they are very patient folks.

[chadintheusa]

First you'd have to have a clear definition of what winning is for the reds. I don't think that is clear even to them. There will be new elections, but that isn't winning. I think some of them want immediate elections, which they might get. Some at the core want Thaksin back which would be a disaster. Some want Thaksin's money back, then they can fight over how to split it. It is pretty evident that the PM can't last more than about 6 months without new elections, so to some degree they've already won. But to press for dissolution of the house immediately risks more rioting and the very real possibility of a coup which would end any hope of elections soon. So I think they have won, but further protests could mean that they lose.

[Jingthing]

They definitely do NOT have a clear agenda plan about what they specifically intend to do if they take power that they have publicly communicated. That is a very scary thing, considering the disgusting, corrupt, violent character of most of their leaders. Their propaganda has been about overthrowing the current "elite" and very destructive. Historically, groups like this that do manage to take power create massive misery.

[britmaveric]

embrace your red side Jing and accept your fate. You know not one thing will change in your life apart from posting more - "I hate red shirt topics/posts and/or polls on such matters."

[kraxlhuber]

dont tell people she a capitalist. TO PEOPLE here its like treason!!!!!!!!!!!

ahhh, you answere my question. when was the nexxt reg. election going to be held?

it all makes sense now. the reds have nothing but 500 baht as their guiding principle. i doubt the country is tearing apart because of the reds, they are just a nuisance!

Capitalism is okay, it's the megalomania of one capitalist that makes the current situation dangerous in my view. He has "lost face" and if given the chance at power here again, he will seek severe revenge. I think that in order to rule here, he will say that he is sorry, but the time for democracy is not now, (and many will agree, who are now supposedly fighting for it), and then he will remove it. From there, Thailand will either fall apart and begin to look like any number of failed states in Africa, or it will become a closed, centralized regime like that in Myanmar.

Somehow, this all needs a reset. I spoke to a good friend of mine, (he is Thai), who although he is an intellectual, supports the red shirts. A while ago, he said that he thinks the reset will only come with blood. Well, we've had blood, but the situation seems more dire than before. How much blood? Does Thailand have to become a failed state for twenty years or more before it gets better? (I mean real failed state, unlike those who say that Thailand already is. When roving gangs of armed killers and rapists start disassembling all of the infrastructure here, I'll classify it as failed)

The reds cannot offer any good policy plans other than money appearing by magic to pay the people who came out to protest, and bringing dear leader Thaksin back. How will this make the country better? Abhisit is not perfect by a long shot, (which I blame more on his coalition partners than him), but he created some stability that Thailand could have built on to catch up to its ASEAN partners with. The longer crap like this goes on, (and you must admit that the protesting of some crazed group will continue if there are snap elections. There will be reds or yellows in the streets no matter which side wins), the further Thailand falls behind Vietnam, Indonesia, and Malaysia. Before Thaksin came in, Thailand was set to be the next "Asian Tiger" country. The `97 crisis killed that, but it was populist policies that he brought to Thailand that created the rift that has slowed Thailand's ability to recover like its neighbors have.

The next elections are scheduled for December 2011. The nine month, three month, 15 days garbage is all a struggle for who gets to influence the new leadership of the military. This is one of the things that must change, The military must ONLY support the government that is in power, not some faction in society. Whoever leads it must not have connections with any group, it must be a tool of the government, and nothing more.

To say that the reds on the street have only 500 baht as their guiding principle is just as shallow of a judgment as saying that they have democracy as their guiding principle. The deeper issue of motivation here is much lower on Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Whether these people understand democracy or not is irrelevant, these people are focused on the basic and safety needs of survival and comfort. They want food on the table, and a tv to watch. Right or wrong, Thaksin was smart to manipulate them by using populist policies to give them "democracy they can eat". This has had a lasting effect on their general psyche, and is why everything is focused on him. I don't believe he is the best way forward however, so I hope that something can be done with those earlier plans of bringing the former PMs together to work as mediators and facilitators for something new out of this.

Grrrr,if I again hear "populist policies" I am gonna throw up.

I SAY! taxins populist policies were not an inch apart from Herr'n Adolf Schicklgruber aka Hitler.

he (H..)promised the Volk the blue from the sky,

sure he gave them work and food and shelter,BUT they had to vote for him and listen to his 3-5 hour long sermons,then it was a bit different,80 % of the population was starving because of the seablockade by brittain(not sooo great then).

Now the Thais are blessed with plenty of everything,if they only not had become soo greedy and ask for more and more.

They slaughtered the buffalos and ate steak and barbecue for weeks,that was the golden goose.

Now they have the Iron Buffalo and they cannot eat that one.

We here have (poor farmers) driving pickup trucks to their rice paddys,and chatting with mia noi on the cellphone.

That all costs money,the sly fox in red (I never see Taxin wearing a red garb,maybe he hates the color)

promised all and sundry all the money they need if ONLY they vote for him

[/qoute]

[fullcave]

Are you trolling again?

embrace your red side Jing and accept your fate. You know not one thing will change in your life apart from posting more - "I hate red shirt topics/posts and/or polls on such matters."

[Livinginexile]

One thing's for sure.

If Khun T comes back it's goodbye to all the khe Nok Falangs in Thailand!

I think that's why they hate the red shirts so much

[uptou]

If i were an honest red shirt (eg,not getting paid for my efforts-i'm hoping they exist otherwise what does it say about the soul of thailand),in a quiet moment all to myself the most important question i think i should be asking myself is what are the biggest motives for Thaksin going to political (& possibly terrorist) war with the government & millitary?

The first question would be,''Does he actually give a **** about thailand & the poor,or is he just using us for his own means given that he is obviously a highly driven individual?''

If i was in doubt why should i even bother considering being a red shirt,given the history of self serving politicians in the region (which the locals would be far more aware of than i.It would be imbedded in their psyche).

Maybe the second question to myself would be ''if he cared so much about thailand,why didnt he pay his tax ,& what about all those property deals?'' (something that a 15 year old would grasp in a second,but maybe things get more complicated as one gets older-eg,greed,ego,self delusion,fame)

Why has he become financial adviser to a country that is inherently corrupt (& one in which he has done business)& in the process of a major dispute over land ownership with thailand,& has a long history of feuds with thailand?(they even named a city, Siam Reap-Defeated) .Surely this alone would easily p!ss of the overly proud red shirt thai.

The list goes on.

[chadintheusa]

If the Reds win I guess there will be elections.

Is that so bad?

If the Reds lose there will be elections. Is that so bad?

If the Reds push their luck and the military comes to town there will be no elections. Is that so bad?

[Jingthing]

If the reds thought the last legal election wasn't legit, why did they wait SO LONG to protest the results? It is irrational. Natural protests occur soon after an event. This movement isn't natural. It is engineered. By you know who.

[chadintheusa]

If the reds thought the last legal election wasn't legit, why did they wait SO LONG to protest the results? It is irrational. Natural protests occur soon after an event. This movement isn't natural. It is engineered. By you know who.

They didn't wait, they announced the protests immediately after the seizure of Thaksin's money. Very natural. The PM is willing to hold elections, but the protests go on. When he gives back the money everyone will go home.

[britmaveric]

If the reds thought the last legal election wasn't legit, why did they wait SO LONG to protest the results? It is irrational. Natural protests occur soon after an event. This movement isn't natural. It is engineered. By you know who.

Culmination of injustice!!!!!

[Livinginexile]

If the reds thought the last legal election wasn't legit, why did they wait SO LONG to protest the results? It is irrational. Natural protests occur soon after an event. This movement isn't natural. It is engineered. By you know who.

What legal election???

This government was NEVER legally elected!

It gets up my nose these people that post without any knowledge of what's going on.

Do you even live in Thailand Jingthing?

[britmaveric]

Well it was legal in a sense, but if the powers that be, move all your obstacles out of your way then it makes it easier to win your stated goal.

[Jingthing]

If the reds thought the last legal election wasn't legit, why did they wait SO LONG to protest the results? It is irrational. Natural protests occur soon after an event. This movement isn't natural. It is engineered. By you know who.

What legal election???

This government was NEVER legally elected!

It gets up my nose these people that post without any knowledge of what's going on.

Do you even live in Thailand Jingthing?

Of course I live in Thailand. It is a bald faced lie to say Abhisit is not the legal, legitimate PM of Thailand. (At least for the next few days, anyway ...)

[Ijustwannateach]

This thread was initially a bit different, but now has been bogged down in the same political mire that the news threads are in. Therefore, closed.