Red Shirt Leaders Flee As Thai Forces Surround Hotel

[Neurath]

Yep, I hope the Genie cannot be put back in the bottle. I find the Red Shirt Manifesto eminently sensible and, quite frankly, somewhat arousing - in the political sense of course (edit: turned emoticon off)

All politics being local, the test will be whether the current protesters go home and clean up their own backyards. I'm less interested in the academic rhetoric than I am in the participatory end of things. If people scream at a national government for its illegitimacy and then go home and kowtow to whoever the local bigwig is then it's just going to be a game of meet the new boss, same as the old boss. Right now this is a larger long-term concern because it seems likely on that side of the popular equation. The genie may not go back in the bottle, and I hope he doesn't, but if all he does is sit around and grant master's wishes then he's just playing for scraps. The other side of the popular equation is a different can of worms with its own problems, of course, and I only don't bring it up because it's not as germane (I think it will be again, soon, though).

Agreed. And agreed also that sides are being taken by sides (note plural) that cannot be spoken of for reasons that cannot be (legally) articulated. Shame really. Time won't tell, but it'll at least give an opportunity.

[britmaveric]

Guess we spoke too soon. From The Nation:

An embarrassing fiasco for govt

Published on April 17, 2010

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/home/2010/...t-30127299.html

Well one needs to confirm you actually have someone rather than run your gob. Must admit it was one of the funniest things I have ever seen.

[warriorneedswarrior]

So how long before Abhisit resigns?

I just do not see how the Anupong replacement of Suthep will play out.

Is the army removing civilian control rather than declare martial law?

Abhist like Suthep is presumably now inconsequential - given Abhist's media absence perhaps that has been the case for a few days?

Does it mean the army will storm the democracy demonstrators on say, Tuesday, - all depends now on Anupong - this must reinforce his position as man in charge of the final say.

haha -- now the real drama starts !

Takki will now make a deal -

Will offer share of black diamond from Sierra Leone- or share in the hotel in Montenegro- or joint venture to develop an island resort

in cambodia with Hunsen-Watthana - nexus !!!

and on tuesday Anupong will comeout and say "Dissolve the parliament "

Waiting for Monday !

Next cabinet :

Anupong - Prime Minister

Seh Daeng -Defense minister

Arisaman-Culture /Sports minister (with rope jumping degree)

Chavalit -- minister of Drugs Control

Chalerm -- Interior minister with special power on Massage parlours and Discotheque!

Takki-- Corruption control

[Bagwan]

Cretins.

The Government has managed to find a few top cops that will obey its rules.

The rank and file however are having second thoughts.

Like the Italians in the last war, they are capable of more fight than this. Trouble is, the rank and file are mostly red, their families are mostly red.

So much for the offer of talks. No more talks I say, starve the business community out now. All the yellow supporters backers are now loosing big money.

Obama was so concerned yesterday with the Thais running round screaming "Terrorist" that he held a press conference.... and announce a mission to Mars!

You have evidence to support your contention? From what I have seen of the RTP over a good number of years they appear to be a bunch of bananas. Yellow and come in bunches. It needed 50 plus of them to shoot up an elderly couples refrigerator remember? They will support any party that allows them to carry on being a national disgrace with the reputation of being the largest organised crime syndicate in the world.

[hoilai]

Isn't it a bit odd that all or most of the Red Shirt / Thaksin supporters are new forum members ???

also you are not to old...and also many for the jellow and so?

Try to separate the leaders from the people...most of them are there for democracy, they really belive that, we want call them terrorist because they are poor and they fight for have a better life?

it all boils down to who is a better liar.......

[Bagwan]

ps great publicity for the hotel, they would be on every tv news around the world - advertising worth tens of millions $

I suggest that people would steer clear of any entity that enriches the fugitive criminal. Hopefully the media will refuse to publish their advertising blurbs. I'd be happy to contribute to a fund to pay for sandwichboard men to parade outside the place appraising people of the owner's identity.

[hoilai]

Cretins.

The Government has managed to find a few top cops that will obey its rules.

The rank and file however are having second thoughts.

Like the Italians in the last war, they are capable of more fight than this. Trouble is, the rank and file are mostly red, their families are mostly red.

So much for the offer of talks. No more talks I say, starve the business community out now. All the yellow supporters backers are now loosing big money.

Obama was so concerned yesterday with the Thais running round screaming "Terrorist" that he held a press conference.... and announce a mission to Mars!

could this be one of the reasons why america lost the vietnam war to farmers who had nothing more than bamboo and sticks??????????

Yeah - the dereliction of duty shown by senior Thai Police reminds me of that famous definition of American Senators:

"A good Senator is one that STAYS bought."

Add to this the army leaking intelligence information like a sieve and it's not hard to see why the government risks looking like 'The Gang That Couldn't Shoot Straight' whenever it tries to reassert it's authority. Unfortunately, the alternative seems to give in to the RED mob that is, in a sense, holding the Bangkok middle class to ransom - no thanks to Bangkok's finest you-know-what.

Edited April 16, 2010 by hoilai

[TheOldWolf]

Some poster here said that PM looked tired and not well. I am not supriced. If a normal person has to deal with psychopaths that never have bad conscience, I think you get tired and depressed.

dam_n, I misread that at first! Thought you were referring to Thaksin meeting repeatedly with Seh Daeng!! But you were referring to Abhisit meeting with Anupong??

No i was refering to nr 1 psychopath in dubai and his cronies

[grandpops]

Cretins.

The Government has managed to find a few top cops that will obey its rules.

The rank and file however are having second thoughts.

Like the Italians in the last war, they are capable of more fight than this. Trouble is, the rank and file are mostly red, their families are mostly red.

So much for the offer of talks. No more talks I say, starve the business community out now. All the yellow supporters backers are now loosing big money.

Obama was so concerned yesterday with the Thais running round screaming "Terrorist" that he held a press conference.... and announce a mission to Mars!

You have evidence to support your contention? From what I have seen of the RTP over a good number of years they appear to be a bunch of bananas. Yellow and come in bunches. It needed 50 plus of them to shoot up an elderly couples refrigerator remember? They will support any party that allows them to carry on being a national disgrace with the reputation of being the largest organised crime syndicate in the world.

Plenty mate, Look around and you will see corruption in every corner of every walk of life here. Thaksins been gone 4 years!

Lucky they shot the fridge. The army managed to kill a few people on live tv last weekend. Suppose as you didn't think is fit your argument that you didn't see it.

You intellegent falangs think you have answers with your glib replys. you don't even know the questions to begin with.

[hoilai]

You are assuming that good general will do smth. He already said what needs to be done and using the army to kill thai people was not the answer.

duing the vietnam war, an american senator advocated for vietnam to be bombed out of the world map. this thai general should be promoted immediately.....

[yoshiwara]

Cretins.

The Government has managed to find a few top cops that will obey its rules.

The rank and file however are having second thoughts.

Like the Italians in the last war, they are capable of more fight than this. Trouble is, the rank and file are mostly red, their families are mostly red.

So much for the offer of talks. No more talks I say, starve the business community out now. All the yellow supporters backers are now loosing big money.

Obama was so concerned yesterday with the Thais running round screaming "Terrorist" that he held a press conference.... and announce a mission to Mars!

You have evidence to support your contention? From what I have seen of the RTP over a good number of years they appear to be a bunch of bananas. Yellow and come in bunches. It needed 50 plus of them to shoot up an elderly couples refrigerator remember? They will support any party that allows them to carry on being a national disgrace with the reputation of being the largest organised crime syndicate in the world.

Plenty mate, Look around and you will see corruption in every corner of every walk of life here. Thaksins been gone 4 years!

Lucky they shot the fridge. The army managed to kill a few people on live tv last weekend. Suppose as you didn't think is fit your argument that you didn't see it.

You intellegent falangs think you have answers with your glib replys. you don't even know the questions to begin with.

Thaksin hasn't been gone for 5 minutes.

Financing the red campaign.

Red apologists would like us to think otherwise.

But we know who is the paymaster.

Mate.

[Neurath]

Some poster here said that PM looked tired and not well. I am not supriced. If a normal person has to deal with psychopaths that never have bad conscience, I think you get tired and depressed.

dam_n, I misread that at first! Thought you were referring to Thaksin meeting repeatedly with Seh Daeng!! But you were referring to Abhisit meeting with Anupong??

No i was refering to nr 1 psychopath in dubai and his cronies

My apologies

[Roadman]

The article was an excellent read. Reading from it thankfully the Pinnochio/Anupong coalition have troops in the Queens Guard who have already taken a battle field hit from the Reds and will realise that their future promotions and very existence are under threath - the motivation will be there 2nd time around. Songkran has come at a good time to allow the coalition to milk out any crap around the Queens Guard. Sadly if the battle field is to be the streets of Bangkok then who better to fight that battle than Bangkokians who now know what they are facing.

[hoilai]

So how long before Abhisit resigns?

With the current shake-up, he no longer has to resign. Having the Army close to him, making decisions with him, and with Mr Abhisit sitting in on the Army meetings, a coup will not happen.

All of Mr Abhisit's upbringing, schooling, and political career has brought him to this moment. I rather doubt that he would throw all of that away by resigning prematurely.

why bother to resign now.... there's blood flowing already...just a question now of how much more blood....and from which, red or otherwise....

[hoilai]

If the governments actions are all above board, if they have nothing to hide, and if the country is behind them, let there be free and fair internationally monitored elections "so the red shirts can be well and truly put in their place."

This Is Burma.

You are a dreamer if you believe this can happen with the mentality of the Red Shirts at this time

What justice has ever been don ee by a lnych mob

I am a nuteral observer

and agree with all you say with a period of 6-8 months for Thailand to settle down

Election yes

But when the time is right for the Thai people

Not for the pleasure of people like yourself

This is their country, we can have an opinion, but have no right to tell them what to do

Agree - dissolution of parliament now will achieve absolutely nothing - what - you want to hand over this country to the mob? Get a life.... Murderers, kidnappers, no law, no order - all a really good example of positive road to democracy...

you forgot to include those who frequent the bar-beers with their fistfull of dollars who continously rape the red shirts' daughters and sons.....

surely these people further help bring out the best that democracy can offer......besides these murderers and what-have-you...

[george]

PM Abhisit hands security control to the military amid protests

Thai army says planning operation to clear protesters

Full story:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Thai-Army-Pl...ea-t356756.html

[SabaiBKK]

the guy wearing the plastic britsh policemans helmet in that video, hilarious

Inept from top to bottom, either that or the police had no intention to arrest them and just went through the motions. Maybe the Government should recruit the yellow shirts that post on here, they seem to be the only ones with the vitriol to follow through, although they would probably not be so brave without the anonymity the computer gives them.

being against the anarchy that the red shirts offer, does not a yellow shirt make

in fact i have no idea what a yellow shirt stands for, and i do not need educating, thank you

i am sure there are many on here who would take care of business for the government if the price was right

some are so inflamed by these developments i suspect they would do it for free and maybe a Thai elite card

where is Sifu McInnes when you need him?

i bet his blood is boiling right now, the keys to the yellow Hummer gripped tightly in his hand, waiting for the phone to ring.....

Well I never quoted you are named you, or indeed named any posters, why so defensive? maybe that cap fits......

tonywebster is such a hypocrite that its not even worth feeding the troll ... you cannot have a mature debate with someone who claims to use his brain and yet speaks like he has only half a braincell or maybe he is totally brainwashed by his issan wife.

[Merangue]

and yet another Red supporter who just joined T.Visa - dare I say some Red supporters have registered multiple accounts?

But to address your points: No I don't advocate race wars. However, I do think Bangkok needs to cleaned up and Bangkokians and the gov't be allowed to go back to work. It's been said a hundred times already, but it's still true: If Thaksin wasn't paying Reds to protest, (directly to Red leaders, and indirectly to the groundlings) the protest would have never got off the ground.

Haha - I wouldn't be writing here if I wasn't banned by the The Nation.

Nope, I am not a red shirt supporter, but I certainly understand their grievances and their tactics.

The yellows created the precendent, and these people are now playing the same script, cooking the same receipt, singing the same tune. That's the problem, and when many people supported the yellows, they immediately and unknowingly decended this country into lawlessness and chaos for years to come.

This was followed by a government that looked and continues to look in the other direction as the yellow leaders have been running free for two years, no real prosecuton or punishement to speak off, no financial cost. This is also followed by a government that censors what they do not like or agree with, not what is disinformation. If they were really cracking down on disinformation, then ASTV would be gone, The Nation would be gone, and who knows how many Thail language outlets as well. Instead, we have 6 government owned TV stations that have no problem spreading pro-government propaganda, never questioning the status quo.

When will any journalist around here really look beyond the upper layers of the problem and understand what is in the belly of this monster? So many socio-economic problems that even academics do not know where to start - yet all ignored by the power brokers of the country, thinking that the status-quo can be preserved forever. I guess all countries that have gone through these upheavals just never care to learn from the history of others that went through it. So, we just get to repeat all the mistakes, again.

This includes your call for pinning one Thai race against another Thai race in order to serve their masters at the top by restoring "order". Masters that still won't move a finger or care to fix the problems of the country.

You see, disagreeing and loathing this goverment does not mean I am red, or blue, or pink. It simply means I have a mind and I exercise my ability to rationalize things through my own perspective and analysis. By labeling me, you accomplish nothing but make yourself look like a bigot and intolerant person. But then again, what's new.

By the way, don't show your silly insecurities so much by thinking that it is just three or four people posting through the use of many accounts. That's just such a paranoid statement, get a grip. It's the internet, you will never know, just as I will never know if you the one doing that.

CS gas in a high concentration dropped onto the protesters from Helicopters .... a few hundred rubbish collecting trucks ... they'd be lying on the floor throwing up and not offer any resistance what so ever ... get rid of this rubbish .....

Any pick up heading towards Bangkok with red shirts in or on it should be confiscated at police check points not to be returned to the owner .. any bus transporting red shirts should be treated the same ... see how many pick up owners and bus companies will bring more of this scum to Bangkok

Remember, they are breaking the law, kill people and want to have a convicted gangster to come back to rule the country

Why don't you do it then? Perhaps you keyboard warriors should go to the Army Barracks and sort this mess out. Sure you will be well received!!

So we are proposing gassing, Helicoporers dropping stuff on them, Anthrax cows I saw yesterday and Navy Seals in Boats treking up Silom!! How about some real seals balancing balloons and blowing kazoos, flapping around the area!!

How about this. Corporal Jones with bayonet fixed.... they don't like it up em Mr Thuagsabun, they don't like it up em! Or Benny Hill music on Thai Tv reports of police raids?

PS, this change in the country is going over your heads and you obviously don't know anything of Thai History or how Thais conduct themselves, even in disputes. Note the smiling faces of the so called Kidnapped CAT boss and the relaxed informal gathering with the Police who were detained this morning.

More Violence is being proposed on this forum that in the offices of the Thais, on both sides!

Two very good posts. More than can be said for most of the other posts on this forum lately.

[SabaiBKK]

On TERRORISTS:

History has given us TERRORISTS who KILL demand $millions$ of dollars, TERRORISTS who KILL and demand the deaths of peoples/races of people, TERRORISTS who KILL and demand the release from prison of other TERRORISTS.

The Reds have killed nobody except in self-defense and they demand only one truly outrageous thing: that the people of Thailand be able to select their leader NOW via an election.

Hardly terrorists by anybody's definition.

did you just arrive in thailand? come from another planet or are you just plain simple?

[Jimi007]

^Yes those that support the red shirts should counter all rubbish posted by those detractors who are preventing the fruits of democracy from being picked. The red shirts will make thailand a more prosperous and happy place through free elections and the resignation of the current puppet regime.

Free elections in Thailand, now that's an oxymoron!

[SabaiBKK]

The country is descending into chaos, with probably it's most capable PM ever at the helm.

I do not agree - Abhisit is part of the root causes that has decended this country into chaos by tacitely endorsing the 2006 coup, by saying that the "2007 constitution is the lesser of two evils" so that he could become PM, and then censoring the media and the web under the almighty excuse of protecting the highest institution. Now he is using all propaganda outlets to put his message out (assuming it is not Suthep running the country, as he is the one doing all the talking now).

This all started when anarchy was endorsed by one political party, and now all political parties think they can do the same thing. While two wrong do not make a right, human nature is far more inclined to the "an eye for an eye" metaphor.

Now, IMO, this is all allowed to happen by the military for the one reason I have always said - chaos and undemocratic protests serves them well, as they use this as an excuse for their position in the country's hierarchy.

wow, i want to know what you are smoking, as well as all the NEW POSTERS who defend the red and claim that anyone who does not agree with them is a yellow.... very small minded and show the lack of understanding of the situation.... the situation in Thailand now is ONLY the fault of a few elites who didnt get their share of the cake and reacted by creating truth today and the red movement .... all they want is to remain an elite feasting on caviar and lobster while the poor peasants protesting FOR THEM will remain poor and uneducated and get only fake promises and breadcrumbs from the feast.

why the government has no intention to catch either Thaksin, or the yellow leaders or the red leaders is because THEY ALL HAVE DIRTY FILES ON EACH OTHER and the shit would hit the fan big time if only one guy was to release one file to the public ... there would then be a real and spontaneous revolution from the people NOT ORCHESTRATED BY POWERFUL AND RICH PUPPET-MASTERS and the heads of all these elite business men, top police and military brass no matter what color they are would be rolling ...

and then maybe Thailand would be able to start having a real and corruption free democracy 35 years after.

meanwhile go buy some popcorn and shut up while we watch our beloved Thailand sink into anarchy.

[Bagwan]

Not all RED are real RED. Sometime I wear a RED skirt, sometime a RED blouse (my favourate thong also happens to be RED).

Thank you for your disclosure regarding the colour of your underwear. I'm sure that we are all grateful to have access to such privileged information. You have BTW introduced another facet to this ongoing pantomime viz - SEX. That is hitherto what was lacking in this perilous situation and by spicing the insurrection up several notches have ensured that it will run and run.

[10027586]

Not all RED are real RED. Sometime I wear a RED skirt, sometime a RED blouse (my favourate thong also happens to be RED).

Thank you for your disclosure regarding the colour of your underwear. I'm sure that we are all grateful to have access to such privileged information. You have BTW introduced another facet to this ongoing pantomime viz - SEX. That is hitherto what was lacking in this perilous situation and by spicing the insurrection up several notches have ensured that it will run and run.

I'm still waiting for my previously-requested photographic evidence of the thong!

[SabaiBKK]

Some people are either being deliberately thick to stir the pot or really are lacking in brainpower. Personally I would not call the majority of grass-roots reds terrorists. They're not. They have genuine grievances that need to be heard. They need the right to better education (without bribes determining how far they go and what grades they get), healthcare etc. The terrorists are the leaders and Sae Daeng's lot.

This causes a problem. Some people here lump them all together. Wrong approach guys. The ordinary reds probably have no idea about the more sinister side of things, and don't forget they're there on the ground or at home watching red tv only getting a very limited set of information (information management is something the red leaders have handled very cleverly). Btw in case anyone thinks I'm biased I also think other media sources are pretty <deleted> but we have the option of scanning the channels, seeing different views on twitter etc. The guys at the rally don't have that option.

This presents a real problem for government/police/army to handle even if they were competent. If terrorists are hiding among civilians (I count terrorists as people who carry grenade launchers and ak47s and use them) how do you take them out without harming civilians? It's a tough call. Warn them and the terrorists will flee. Don't warn them and you'll have a bloodbath. Take no action and the belligerent leadership will keep on pushing and keep on making things even more lawless. And with the grass-roots reds being so lovey-dovey while the iron fist of the red terrorists lurks unseen, the world's media will rip you to pieces if you take action.

Of course the above was on the assumption of competence. Crap. We can't make that assumption. We have police who lack the skill to handle crowd-control and frankly don't give a crap anyway, and an army that's split through the middle and stuffed with watermelons. Sae Daeng vs Thai Police and army? You know who's going to win.

Now the problem here is that whichever side 'wins' will face the same problem. If an armed group rises against them they have no means to do anything about it, lacking competent police and army. This makes Thailand incapable of having a functioning government. Which brings me to the present government.

If I was Abhisit I'd say "<deleted> to this" and leave everyone else to it, as the PM's job is an absolute poisoned chalice and anyone who takes the job is doomed to lose it within a fairly short space of time. I don't think any truly democratic leader will last more than 2 years from here on in, until a radical shift happens in Thailand.

So who can rule Thailand? Whoever has a big and ruthless private army (because the state one is hopeless). One could argue that this is the reds, with Sae Daeng's lot. Yep, Thailand has backed itself into a corner where the only type of leader who can successfully rule is an armed despot. No civilian leader will have a chance, because more thugs will come and the state army and police will fail again. So the future is either red-yellow-red-yellow-red-yellow or a slide into brutal dictatorship.

Personally I don't see a way out and that bothers me. I love Thailand, I really do (admittedly mostly for the food) but I just don't see a way out of this mess Maybe that's why I'm not a diplomat, rather just another anonymous wanke_r on the internet.

finally someone with a brain ..... its the first time ever that I read something that shows that the writer really understands the situation ... i was getting desperate with the low quality of brainpower on Thaivisa

[10027586]

Brain? Brain? Mai mee.

[Throatwobbler]

On TERRORISTS:

History has given us TERRORISTS who KILL demand $millions$ of dollars, TERRORISTS who KILL and demand the deaths of peoples/races of people, TERRORISTS who KILL and demand the release from prison of other TERRORISTS.

The Reds have killed nobody except in self-defense and they demand only one truly outrageous thing: that the people of Thailand be able to select their leader NOW via an election.

Hardly terrorists by anybody's definition.

did you just arrive in thailand? come from another planet or are you just plain simple?

My moneys on the latter.

[Throatwobbler]

^Yes those that support the red shirts should counter all rubbish posted by those detractors who are preventing the fruits of democracy from being picked. The red shirts will make thailand a more prosperous and happy place through free elections and the resignation of the current puppet regime.

Free elections in Thailand, now that's an oxymoron!

So true. I wish all these people calling for free and fair elections would think for a minute. It's never happened before here and has got no chance in hel_l of happening now.

[Jingthing]

^Yes those that support the red shirts should counter all rubbish posted by those detractors who are preventing the fruits of democracy from being picked. The red shirts will make thailand a more prosperous and happy place through free elections and the resignation of the current puppet regime.

Free elections in Thailand, now that's an oxymoron!

So true. I wish all these people calling for free and fair elections would think for a minute. It's never happened before here and has got no chance in hel_l of happening now.

By free, they mean they hope their side comes out on top next time. Otherwise its not free.

[SabaiBKK]

False.

Tourism is 4th as a percentage of GDP (6%)behind

Automobiles and Automotive parts (11%), Financial Services (9%), Electric appliances and components (8%).

However it is all intertwined. You kill tourism, investment confidence will take a massive hit, which would affect financial services, industrial investment and output, etc.

Now, let's study numbers in Thailand. I suppose some people here think that nobody is oppressed, right? Seems like I see a few people making that claim. I suppose that if they are not on chains, they are not oppressed? Growing 100KG of rice for 400baht, no oppression? Having to sell the loto to make a living, no oppressed? Going to get a higher education to get paid $10K THB a month, not oppressed? Having to send their daughters to the big city to make ends meet, not oppression? Having to see old, fat farangs with some money as 'economic opportunities', not oppression? Having to drink 10 to 20 shots a night in order to make money, no oppression? Having to work 6 days a week, 12 hours a day for 8-9K THB cleaning rooms at a 5 star hotel, no oppression? Having to pay the police in order to sell your trinkets on the street, no oppression?

Heck no, after all the government claims that Thailand has an unemployment rate of 1.5%!! That's lower than Japan, lower than any industrialized country in the world! Why are they so unhappy if they are all gainfully employed and making a good living!!! Yeah! What shallow, self serving vision of the world you must have if you think that people making LESS than 4,000 baht a month working the farm should not feel oppressed. Go read a little bit about all the class and rural upheavals in the history of the world and you will see all the same patterns.

May be I should be asking the question - what do you think is oppression to you, aside from being on chains?

and this is the fault of the current government because?

and in what was it better with thaksin?

and do you really think that with self serving retards like arisman and jatuporn in an eventual new government, things would change?

and you think this justifies bringing the country into anarchy knowing that nothing will ever change anyway?

please take out the rose tainted glasses or just stop taking drugs ...

[SabaiBKK]

I agree with most of this post and this is the most valid point.

What people need is mandatory free education. This will allow them to gain more knowledge, allow them to get better paid jobs, and thus give them higher spending power and better standard of living.

Thaksin had every opportunity to change things regarding education during his reign, but did nothing. what makes people think that he will do upon his return? I also agree that to control the masses is more easily done when they are not educated. God forbid that they should begin to ask questions.

Cheers, Rick

seems to me that Abhisit did propose/pass a 15 years free and obligatory schooling for everyone ... but the red apologists never mention it of course ... the reds want the money only , not the education ...

teach a man to fish instead of giving him caned sardines ...