Thai Army Says Planning Operation To Clear Protesters

[JohnLeech]

Mate, there's an eyewitness account of a black-clad agent provocateur shooting at the reds then shooting at the army. The witness said he pointed this out to the red shirt guard but was told to <deleted>. (Let me know if you need a link, but I'm sure you've already seen it)

The link - yes, please.

I've read lots of accounts of this account, but not the original.

[JohnLeech]

You yellow, old-school, old-money supporters posting here would still be in the factory earning less than five dollars a day if it wasn't for socialists fighting for workers rights, true democracies, legal systems functioning equally for rich and poor, and universal healthcare and education.

Really?

I thought I'd still be owning the factory paying the peasants less than five dollars a day, and enjoying every minute of it!

[bangkoklight]

Laws change to suit the needs of the people at the time. If the needs of the people cannot be met because a political party that won majority vote cannot be in power, then laws need to be broken. Simple. You think the Americans or the French got where they are today by obeying laws set by the British Empire and the French aristocracy?

[bangkoklight]

Every factory has its workers so you would be outnumbered 1:100 or 1:200, wouldn't you? Obviously no brain day (or no brain life) for you.

[jcbangkok]

Laws change to suit the needs of the people at the time. If the needs of the people cannot be met because a political party that won majority vote cannot be in power, then laws need to be broken. Simple. You think the Americans or the French got where they are today by obeying laws set by the British Empire and the French aristocracy?

Agree but these people were willing to give up their lives for their beliefs and went to war for them. The US had a civil war too which pit brothers against brothers. I pray the people of Thailand are not so stupid in this day and age, which offers so many other options to civil war, to believe a civil war is needed. BUT if they do have this much conviction that the current government is oppressing them to such an extreme state they cannot wait for elections in 6 to 9-months then they should by all means step up and take on the government BUT they must be prepared to give their lives and not whine about it or play games where they force the hand of government to react and then cry how unfair it was they got hurt. Well, not if they want any respect or support anyway.

[JohnLeech]

I'm quite sure if you can present 'documented and provable' misdeeds against Abhisit it will be displayed right here in black and white free of any censorship ! for all to peruse

".. that really says it all ".... ..doesn't it ?

Well, since you raise the point, where shall we start?

How about the 7,000 page Department of Special Investigation report on the 258 million baht donation by TPI Polene/ Prachai Leophairatana, which Abhisit denied existed when he signed off on the Party accounts and which the Electoral Commission has at last recommended should result in the banning of the Democrat Party?

Or the unanimous decision by the panel headed by the Deputy Attorney-General to dissolve the Democrats (as well as TRT and 3 others for trying to rig the 2006 elections by bribing other parties (although the Constitutional Tribunal later only dissoled the others, even though the case against he Democrats was proven)?

Or how about the Thai Khem Khaeng programme scandal, when the Public Health Minister was found, among other things, to have been given an 80 million baht bribe. Witthaya Kaewparadai, the Public Health Minister, Manit Nop-amornbodi, the Deputy Minister, and the Minister's secretary and advisor were all found guilty. Witthaya resigned but was promoted by Abhisit to Chief Government Whip, and Manit refused to resign and was allowed to remain in post.

Or the corruption in the running of the 26 billion baht Sufficiency Economy programme, where Deputy Prime Minister Korbsak Sabhavasu resigned as Director of the programme, but his brother remained as Deputy Director, and Korbsak not only remained as Deputy Prime Minister but he was also promoted to be Abhisit's Secretary General?

Or the rotten fish scandal, when Vitoon Nambutr, the Minister of Social Development and Human Security claimed that there had not been any official corruption in buying rotten canned fish to give out to flooded villages in Phatthalung as the fish had been bought with donations, not government funds, so he was initially allowed to remain in office?

Or what about Newin Chidchob and the rotten school milk and farm fertiliser scandals?

Quite a record, given that they are really only just getting started - just think what they could manage with a full term in office!

Edited April 17, 2010 by JohnLeech

[jcbangkok]

I'm quite sure if you can present 'documented and provable' misdeeds against Abhisit it will be displayed right here in black and white free of any censorship ! for all to peruse

".. that really says it all ".... ..doesn't it ?

Well, since you raise the point, where shall we start?

How about the 7,000 page Department of Special Investigation report on the 258 million baht donation by TPI Polene/ Prachai Leophairatana, which Abhisit denied existed when he signed off on the Party accounts and which the Electoral Commission has at last recommended should result in the banning of the Democrat Party?

Or the unanimous decision by the panel headed by the Deputy Attorney-General to dissolve the Democrats (as well as TRT and 3 others for trying to rig the 2006 elections by bribing other parties (although the Constitutional Tribunal later only dissoled the others, even though the case against he Democrats was proven)?

Or how about the Thai Khem Khaeng programme scandal, when the Public Health Minister was found, among other things, to have been given an 80 million baht bribe. Witthaya Kaewparadai, the Public Health Minister, Manit Nop-amornbodi, the Deputy Minister, and the Minister's secretary and advisor were all found guilty. Witthaya resigned but was promoted by Abhisit to Chief Government Whip, and Manit refused to resign and was allowed to remain in post.

Or the corruption in the running of the 26 billion baht Sufficiency Economy programme, where Deputy Prime Minister Korbsak Sabhavasu resigned as Director of the programme, but his brother remained as Deputy Director, and Korbsak not only remained as Deputy Prime Minister but he was also promoted to be Abhisit's Secretary General?

Or the rotten fish scandal, when Vitoon Nambutr, the Minister of Social Development and Human Security claimed that there had not been any official corruption in buying rotten canned fish to give out to flooded villages in Phatthalung as the fish had been bought with donations, not government funds, so he was initially allowed to remain in office?

Or what about Newin Chidchob and the rotten school milk and farm fertiliser scandals?

Quite a record, given that they are really only just getting started - just think what they could manage with a full term in office!

The only relevant thing but still unproven is ...

How about the 7,000 page Department of Special Investigation report on the 258 million baht donation by TPI Polene/ Prachai Leophairatana, which Abhisit denied existed when he signed off on the Party accounts and which the Electoral Commission has at last recommended should result in the banning of the Democrat Party?

But anybody with any sense will not read into the election commissions recommendation for numerous reasons but mainly because of their being intimidated by Red Shirts who held the commission hostage until they agreed to the Reds demand and then being told the Reds would be there when they made decision (why they did it before the 20th). Not to mention this recommendation holds no legal weight in terms of innocent or guilt (this comes later) and I would not be surprised in the least bit to find out later that that the government recommended they lean their decision this way in hopes of cooling down the Reds ... this recommendation is the equivalent of being a suspect in a crime ... nothing proven yet.

Edited April 17, 2010 by jcbangkok

[jcbangkok]

http://www.facebook.com/Abhisit.M.Vejjajiva

200,000+ fans ... I've seen the ball drop, now I can go to bed.

[BNZ]

I'm quite sure if you can present 'documented and provable' misdeeds against Abhisit it will be displayed right here in black and white free of any censorship ! for all to peruse

".. that really says it all ".... ..doesn't it ?

Well, since you raise the point, where shall we start?

How about the 7,000 page Department of Special Investigation report on the 258 million baht donation by TPI Polene/ Prachai Leophairatana, which Abhisit denied existed when he signed off on the Party accounts and which the Electoral Commission has at last recommended should result in the banning of the Democrat Party?

And you are saying this has already been proven in a court of law ?  No

Would you state here for all to see that you know Abhisit knew of it's existence, it is   "documented and provable "  and do you have the proof  ?     No

 

Has Abhisit been found guilty ?     No

Have you been able to write this free of censorship ?    YES !

[BNZ]

You yellow, old-school, old-money supporters posting here would still be in the factory earning less than five dollars a day if it wasn't for socialists fighting for workers rights, true democracies, legal systems functioning equally for rich and poor, and universal healthcare and education.

Really?

I thought I'd still be owning the factory paying the peasants less than five dollars a day, and enjoying every minute of it!

Your really getting reamed, I've got five factories offshore and I'm only paying the serfs $1.00 a day

More Champagne !

[whiterussian]

You yellow, old-school, old-money supporters posting here would still be in the factory earning less than five dollars a day if it wasn't for socialists fighting for workers rights, true democracies, legal systems functioning equally for rich and poor, and universal healthcare and education.

Really?

I thought I'd still be owning the factory paying the peasants less than five dollars a day, and enjoying every minute of it!

Your really getting reamed, I've got five factories offshore and I'm only paying the serfs $1.00 a day

More Champagne !

Are you sure you are not on the Thaksin payroll? Doing a dam_n good PR job for him!

Edited April 17, 2010 by whiterussian

[Throatwobbler]

A majority of 100 would be 50.1% at the very least and as the "RED party" did not win even 40% in the last election I am not sure how they are the majority party. Explain please

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Repr...ves_of_Thailand

Seats won. 2007

Reds: (233/480)*100 = 48.5%

Yellows: (165/480)*100 = 34.3%

---

Seats after coup

Reds (189/475)*100 = 39.7%

Yellows (172/475)*100 = 36.2%

According to final results, the PPP won 233 seats, the Democrat Party 165 seats and Chart Thai 37 seats. For the Motherland got 24 seats, Ruam Jai Thai Chat Pattana 9, the Neutral Democratic Party 7 and Pracharat 5 seats.

On December 2, 2008, the People's Power Party, the Thai Nation Party, and the Neutral Democratic Party were dissolved by the Constitutional Court of Thailand for violations of electoral laws during the election campaign of the 2007 parliamentary election.

The party dissolves instantly ended the six-party coalition's rule, which was led by Prime Minister Somchai Wongsawat until then. On January 11, 2009, a by-election was held to re-occupy 29 vacant seats; the results were in favor of the five-party, Democrat-led coalition, giving it 20 of the 29 seats.

Army imposes new constitution.

Ok I really think you need to check you history before you post.

First point. The reds won 48.5% of the seats. This is not a majority, although it's pretty close.

Of votes cast they won 39% of the votes. This is obviously a lot further from a majority.

Second point you then claim a coup. The coup happened 15 months before this election. So what you claim is nonsense. The revised seat figures are after investigation into all the electoral fraud. I.E votebuying etc. Yo will claim these decisions were politically motivated, I will say I have seen ample evidence to confirm these allegations. Including what led to the disbandment of the PPP. We are allowed to disagree if this was fair or not, but please stick to the facts.

Third point about the by elections. So people who had their MP barred because of corruption were allowed to vote for another Representative. Maybe they chose to vote for the democrats and friends is because they were tired of the constant corruption. Just a thought.

Fourth point. The army put forward a new constitution, which was approved by a majority of Thais in a referendum. Maybe under duress. But once again this happened before the election, once again making your point complete nonsense.

I know we disagree on the current situation, and I am happy to discuss things with you. But if you are going to post things as facts, please check them first.

At least find when the coup happened. Google is your friend

[Throatwobbler]

If you're a farang in Thailand and not on the side of the Reds, then you're a traitor to everything the West has achieved in the modern era. You yellow, old-school, old-money supporters posting here would still be in the factory earning less than five dollars a day if it wasn't for socialists fighting for workers rights, true democracies, legal systems functioning equally for rich and poor, and universal healthcare and education. Thaksin is the catalyst for this uprising, whether he's good or bad. The Bangkok elite and their repressive rule is the cause - keeping the poor in their place with fear from every angle for decades. Farang! Stand up and fight for these PEOPLE's rights!

Stupid post.

This is all about Thaksin. Do you think he cares about any of you examples. By the way I believe in them all.

[Publicus]

Let's be honest to ourselves. The cause of all this trouble since the year dot isn't the Thai politicians or the Thai military. It's the Thai people themselves who believe magic will solve their problems, bring them luck, and make them rich. In any country, the government is formed by its people for its people. If its people are selfish and only interested in self- or family gain, then the politicians will be no different. They are too the nation's people. Thais have only themselves to blame. To exemplify this, here's a question: How many Thais would move their car aside in a traffic jam or slow down for a passing ambulance?

What you say isn't PC of course, but there do appear to be cultural/historical/educational limitations here that retard the potential of an easy transition to real democracy here. I can't say more but I think some people will get the hint.

Absolutely. I'd start at the top and point out institutional.

[Throatwobbler]

going mad to read all this stuff, most of you US guys, you came from a free country, Thailand is not a fancy video-game, it is real, the reds are real too. Nobody wants to start the talks first, that is "kindergarten".

Not true. There's been multiple attempts by the Democrats to restart negotiations, all snubbed by the reds who have insisted on a 16 day or less house dissolution demand.

Re Ahhisit's fan page - was started many months ago, but until 2 or 3 months ago the number of fans was below 100,000. Looks like my previous prediction will come to pass

What was your prediction? And thanks, I revisited his Hi5 page a few weeks back and saw it mentioned the FB page and assumed it was fairly new. When I went it was not too much beyond 100k. Just since my post about his FB it has added another 500 fans. LOL, I feel like I am waiting for the New Year's ball to drop to see it hit 200k ... about 450 more to go.

But again surprised, just out of competition, the Reds have not piled onto Thaksin's page. I think his went from about 10k to 20k in the same time Abhisit's has grown near a 100k.

Not as many computers in farmers living rooms. Usually their houses are full of farming things.

But nice to show your elitist blindness with this post. Shows more the class divide than anything else.

Yellows being the elites, have more money, therefore more computers, therefore more facebook members.

You not related to Einstein by anychance are you

We all Know your not.

[whiterussian]

Ah yes, my bad, so many coups its hard to keep track:

was it two coups and one 'court ruling'?

I'm sure I'm missing a coup somewhere.

"The 2006 Thailand coup d'état took place on Tuesday 19 September 2006, when the Royal Thai Army staged a coup d'état against the elected caretaker government of Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra."

then comes the RE-ELECTION of the reds:

Seats won. 2007

Reds: (233/480)*100 = 48.5%

Yellows: (165/480)*100 = 34.3%

then comes the PAD airport coup leaving:

Red majority

Reds (189/475)*100 = 39.7%

Yellows (172/475)*100 = 36.2%

Is this correct? Im not really interested in the dates, just the count of extra judicial vote rigging...with a ruddy great tank!

--------------------------

As for an Army written constitution, I thought that sort of thing died with the Raj?

I have no idea what's in it of course. But any man who signs up to a killing profession must have a few screws loose. (I come from a veeeeeery long line of such folk 1000+ years, and clearly bonkers most of them, although they were atthe time defending against very real enemies, such as Napolean, and the British).

But hey, what wrong with coups!?

Trouble is, next time, the Army might be RED. And next time, there may be no one at the top of pile to call a halt to it.

Looks like the yellows intend to keep playing the tough guy, and hopefully they will win in the next election. If not and the yellows spit dummies, and call in the tanks, then I guess we all know that any facade of democracy has gone. Maybe another casualty in the global war on 'terror'.

If this is a dry run, I thank my lucky stars I'm up north.

Edited April 17, 2010 by whiterussian

[Throatwobbler]

Ah yes, my bad, so many coups its hard to keep track:

was it two coups and one 'court ruling'?

I'm sure I'm missing a coup somewhere.

"The 2006 Thailand coup d'état took place on Tuesday 19 September 2006, when the Royal Thai Army staged a coup d'état against the elected caretaker government of Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra."

then comes the RE-ELECTION of the reds:

Seats won. 2007

Reds: (233/480)*100 = 48.5%

Yellows: (165/480)*100 = 34.3%

then comes the PAD airport coup leaving:

Red majority

Reds (189/475)*100 = 39.7%

Yellows (172/475)*100 = 36.2%

Is this correct? Im not really interested in the dates, just the count of extra judicial vote rigging...with a ruddy great tank!

--------------------------

As for an Army written constitution, I thought that sort of thing died with the Raj?

I have no idea what's in it of course. But any man who signs up to a killing profession must a few screws loose. (I come from a veeeeeery long line of such folk).

But hey, what wrong with coups!?

Trouble is, next time, the Army might be RED.

I'm more worried that the army may play for keeps for a very long time. I can see a few of the generals sitting somewhere reminiscing about the last coup

" Well last time we gave it back to the politicians after 15 months and look at the mess that has happened. How about this time we keep it for ourselves?"

[whiterussian]

^ exactly!

I really have no idea what the best way to handle this is, but a gung-ho attitude in my opinion is exactly the wrong thing to be doing right now. At the end of the day, whatever keeps Thailand civilised. And and iron fist, I think, will do the opposite. Just a feeling, because thats exactly what the Russians did. And Vietnamese etc... blowback. But hey, maybe the Thai jai yen yen will kick in at some point, maybe after more bloodshed. I think they are too proud a nation to turn into a new Burma- and a lot less ethnic mix. (i may be wrong about that ethnicity part!).

In fact in Russia, i think it was just one regiment on a ship that sided with the Bolsheiviks and that spun the whole thing out. The PR wars began, and an unholy mess began.

So i think understand what the Yellows are fearing, but it seems to me to be a textbook example of the wrong thing to do, in this day and age of communications...

softly softly catchee monkey!

Edited April 17, 2010 by whiterussian

[Publicus]

More hyperbole from Jerry ---- The PAD leadership have cases that are ongoing. The difference between them and your Red leadership is that they never preached armed insurrection from their stages etc. To call them terrorists has already been dealt with officially on the forum. It is a non starter as they did not terrorize anyone.

It is nice to see that Jerry is standing up with the red leadership apparently, and doesn't think that the rule of law need be followed!

I love mathematics y=1/X is my favourite equation.

May I suggest a nice reading: my posts.

You will discover that I support the Red Shirt PEOPLE, not the leaders (they can support themselves - they are not my "cheer Leaders"), that I am not a "Thaksinist", that I have explained that LAWS are rules that a society gives to itself and that a law can lost its credibility and pertinence and even become "unlawful". Also there is a second degree which is the application of the law (no double standard particularly) and then a third degree: the interpretation of LAWs (which is a juicy domain for an army of Lawyers)

You cannot shout "it is the LAW, you have to apply". I will reply this law must be accepted by the society not by a band of law-makers twisting everything in their own interests and representing a minority. The current Thai Laws have been so maltreated that nobody has legitimacy in refering to them because they are no more trusted after so many cheatings. Today, a serious cleaning is required.

If some freedom (like Press, Media) are confiscated by the laws, it is even normal than all lovers of democracy fight and not respect it, because in the hierarchy of Laws, International ones should supersede National one. This is what the International Community try to implement with some successes (The Hague Court) and some blockages. The French Resistance was not respecting the LAWS established by VICHY and NAZIS, hopefully.

LAWS are a result of the will of a society, as Society varies, it is a variable reference in time: Law-makers, Unionists, politicians are the soldiers whose mission is to modify the Laws and if it appears that one Law is unfair, it is their Honour of not respecting this Law.

At the end, History is the judge.

This is the standard University introduction when you start studies in Laws....

Yes the law, the rule of law and a clear sense of justice to a satisfactory degree must be credible and perceived as acceptable to the mass of a population in any society, but in Thailand it never has been and continues not to be. The 'law' in Thailand has been mangled and twisted, contorted and convoluted, disregarded and so seldom applied or applicable for so long that the old adage that two wrongs don't make a right has long since evolved to the absurd belief that a thousand wrongs make a thousand rights, mai pen rai.

Since 1932 the long established elites of political clowns regularly interrupted by brutal military dictators and their regimes that have been alternating in government, the people who regard parliament as a marketplace of business deals and trade offs with no regard to the well being of the country as a whole, rather than see parliament as a public responsibility and service and as a lawmaking body, have begun to reap the whirlwind of their assinine [sic] idocy rooted in personal and sectarian geographic predicated greed.

Now the dispossessed want a part of the action but the elites won't hear of it. A major reason is that the peasantry is ill led - Thaksin - and needs leaders of the nature of Mandella and others I several times have referred to in posts, I've repeatedly noted haven't any hope of of finding (or emerging) because Thai culture, society, civiliation is grossly incapable of producing even a Walesa. In Thaksin as their Great Leader all the Reshirts are getting are copies of Mao, Pol Pot, Kim Jong Il and so many others.

The culture prides itself in having few formal laws and in resolving disputes informally and personally. The time of that has passed but the deeply rooted culture of settling matters outside the rule of law, to include especially by coup d'etat rather than the rule of law persists and shows no signs or indications of abating. Which is why the country is in an early state of incipient civil war. I other words what goes around comes around. Another relevant statement is that the people deserve what the get, good and hard.

[peter48]

Someone earlier here said "Security forces are often an extension of the misuse of the law to protect the status quo/elites/business and certainly not to protect the common man/woman"

Yes but that would apply in China , Burma, N. Korea but not Thailand as it is is a democracy with a constitution and many different political parties. All capitalist advanced democracies have law enforcement which must prevent anarchy and serious social disruption to their citizens and economic activity.

Of course a balance has to be struck to ensure there is not massive inequality and absolute poverty and most democratic, capitalist and developing countries - try to achieve that end and as Thailand ecomomically develops further so will its social justice. Meanwhile the police and army ( if needed) are sent in to maintain the security of the constitutional state in the last analysis. Of course we do not want to see blood shed but it is the unlawful mob in Bangkok who have prolonged their stay and there has already been fatalities so it follows that the security forces must act decisively; the ballot in a democracy is what can change things not continued anarchy in BKK in froont of the world's media.

[Throatwobbler]

^ exactly!

I really have no idea what the best way to handle this is, but a gung-ho attitude in my opinion is exactly the wrong thing to be doing right now. At the end of the day, whatever keeps Thailand civilised. And and iron fist, I think, will do the opposite. Just a feeling, because thats exactly what the Russians did. And Vietnamese etc... blowback. But hey, maybe the Thai jai yen yen will kick in at some point, maybe after more bloodshed. I think they are too proud a nation to turn into a new Burma- and a lot less ethnic mix. (i may be wrong about that ethnicity part!).

In fact in Russia, i think it was just one regiment on a ship that sided with the Bolsheiviks and that spun the whole thing out. The PR wars began, and an unholy mess began.

So i think understand what the Yellows are fearing, but it seems to me to be a textbook example of the wrong thing to do, in this day and age of communications...

softly softly catchee monkey!

The battleship Potemkin. A crew rebelled against its Tsarist rulers. Was later made into a movie which had a huge propaganda effect.. Exactly what I see here at the moment. A massive propaganda war by both sides.

The key is which one are Thais going to believe.

[jucel]

look at the nation's pic. there is a green van at the back. ok, now look at the before pic. the green van is still there. look at the after and it has been covered up with photoshop!!!!!!!

Where are these pictures, can't find them.

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=3878...id=328167122854

the others are on pages of the forum - called before and after

Thanks. Well, I spent some time to try and investigate these "fake" images.

The image on the right posted on page 15 here http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Thai-Army-Pl...html&st=365 definitely fake (extra people filled in), but now, who did it?

When I follow some links I come to a website http://www.pantip.com/cafe/rajdumnern/topi...0/P9134000.html that has a full page study on various fake images. A red site I assume. Some of their points seem a bit dubious to me.

The fact that they have the before and after images is quite suspicious. I also note various images were taken at different times of the day. Particularly the images that have umbrellas were earlier in the morning perhaps when there was still some rain.

Comparing images with umbrellas with later images that have a lot of people can be very deceptive simply because umbrellas and peoples heads are very different in size, thus the sense of high density and low density are very different.

I also note that the image on pantip.com of a large crowd (said to be fake) is different than the one in the nation.

The image posted here on page 15 are early morning pictures that have umbrellas and few people (the one of the right being the fake one). I'm also suspicious why anyone would want to fake the early morning picture that has fewer people, and of course how do they have the before and after of the same image if they did not make the fake??????????

They also make some claims about the photo shop version name "CS3" being shown in one of the images (i.e. on a handrail and on an umbrella), which makes little sense to me.

So, who did it? My guess is the red shirt supporters are making the fakes, OR (get this one) maybe BOTH!

Anyway, the case can be settled if anyone can find the fake right image on page 15 on an actual nation webpage. If not, then I think this is just more fake red propaganda.

my point really was that there wasn't anywhere near 5,000 people at this event. If you look at the pictures on nation's facebook page and the fake 'before' picture. Take a green vehicle(back left) as point of reference. The vehicle really isn't very far back in the crowd. Look at the before pic and see how far the green vehicle is back in the shot. There are more people in the nation's pic but this is due to the crowds filling up. I believe the 'before' and the nation's are real but if you took the nation's pic from the same viewpoint that the 'before' was taken it would look much less impressive. Its actually quite a small area up to the green vehicle, just condensed with people. I would reckon about 1000 to 1500.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/home/2010/...n-30127345.html

[generalgrant]

Don't we all have to think it got a lot harder to get Thai military men to charge toward the area the Reds now hold after the army say over 200 of their com rads in arms shot down in roughly 1 minute.

Most were shot with rubber bullets--THIS TIME.

Funny thing is likely the men doing the shooting wearing black with faces covered are also Thai military special forces.

Bet they are telling the boys in the army to stay the heck away or die.

I really doubt that any Thai general can get a strong group to charge again.

After all. most of the army people are Pro Red anyway being from Issan.

I think the next step for the reds is a complete shutdown of Bangkok which they could do easily.

Maybe they will pick out a few buildings owned by Backers of the regime and burn then down to the ground. Who could stop it?

It is easy to start a fire but difficult to put out.

It is easy to start a war but difficult to stop it.

This war, started when the Thai elite regime did the Coup against Thai love Thai.

Often in an all out fight, the loser could be the side that has the most to lose--the current regime.

The Reds mean business.

I think if they wanted to, they could hold the current area against even tank fire. City warfare is impossible to win. The entire city would be gone and the reds would still be alive and fighting.

If the building start to burn, it might be best for all farangs to leave Thailand in a wind-sprint.

If the reds want to win, and do not care how, they will win.

[scorecard]

going mad to read all this stuff, most of you US guys, you came from a free country, Thailand is not a fancy video-game, it is real, the reds are real too. Nobody wants to start the talks first, that is "kindergarten

Not true. There's been multiple attempts by the Democrats to restart negotiations, all snubbed by the reds who have insisted on a 16 day or less house dissolution demand.

Re Ahhisit's fan page - was started many months ago, but until 2 or 3 months ago the number of fans was below 100,000. Looks like my previous prediction will come to pass

What was your prediction? And thanks, I revisited his Hi5 page a few weeks back and saw it mentioned the FB page and assumed it was fairly new. When I went it was not too much beyond 100k. Just since my post about his FB it has added another 500 fans. LOL, I feel like I am waiting for the New Year's ball to drop to see it hit 200k ... about 450 more to go.

But again surprised, just out of competition, the Reds have not piled onto Thaksin's page. I think his went from about 10k to 20k in the same time Abhisit's has grown near a 100k.

Not as many computers in farmers living rooms. Usually their houses are full of farming things.

But nice to show your elitist blindness with this post. Shows more the class divide than anything else.

Yellows being the elites, have more money, therefore more computers, therefore more facebook members.

ou not related to Einstein by anychance are you

We all Know your not.

- You are blindly saying that the yellows are the elites - Well thats not true, the yellow 'membership' is totally diverse, many are low income earners who saw that thaksin needed to be removed and it is highly undesirable for him to return to Thai politics and to power.

[yoshiwara]

Don't we all have to think it got a lot harder to get Thai military men to charge toward the area the Reds now hold after the army say over 200 of their com rads in arms shot down in roughly 1 minute.

Most were shot with rubber bullets--THIS TIME.

Funny thing is likely the men doing the shooting wearing black with faces covered are also Thai military special forces.

Bet they are telling the boys in the army to stay the heck away or die.

I really doubt that any Thai general can get a strong group to charge again.

After all. most of the army people are Pro Red anyway being from Issan.

I think the next step for the reds is a complete shutdown of Bangkok which they could do easily.

Maybe they will pick out a few buildings owned by Backers of the regime and burn then down to the ground. Who could stop it?

It is easy to start a fire but difficult to put out.

It is easy to start a war but difficult to stop it.

This war, started when the Thai elite regime did the Coup against Thai love Thai.

Often in an all out fight, the loser could be the side that has the most to lose--the current regime.

The Reds mean business.

I think if they wanted to, they could hold the current area against even tank fire. City warfare is impossible to win. The entire city would be gone and the reds would still be alive and fighting.

If the building start to burn, it might be best for all farangs to leave Thailand in a wind-sprint.

If the reds want to win, and do not care how, they will win.

From one of our newer Thaksin supporters.

What a lot of speculative nonsense.

Lots of if, if, if.

Yes we know that the red cheerleaders would like to burn down Bangkok for Thaksin.

For 500 baht mostly anything goes.

And Thaksin is prepared to pay it.

[generalgrant]

Don't we all have to think it got a lot harder to get Thai military men to charge toward the area the Reds now hold after the army say over 200 of their com rads in arms shot down in roughly 1 minute.

Most were shot with rubber bullets--THIS TIME.

Funny thing is likely the men doing the shooting wearing black with faces covered are also Thai military special forces.

Bet they are telling the boys in the army to stay the heck away or die.

I really doubt that any Thai general can get a strong group to charge again.

After all. most of the army people are Pro Red anyway being from Issan.

I think the next step for the reds is a complete shutdown of Bangkok which they could do easily.

Maybe they will pick out a few buildings owned by Backers of the regime and burn then down to the ground. Who could stop it?

It is easy to start a fire but difficult to put out.

It is easy to start a war but difficult to stop it.

This war, started when the Thai elite regime did the Coup against Thai love Thai.

Often in an all out fight, the loser could be the side that has the most to lose--the current regime.

The Reds mean business.

I think if they wanted to, they could hold the current area against even tank fire. City warfare is impossible to win. The entire city would be gone and the reds would still be alive and fighting.

If the building start to burn, it might be best for all farangs to leave Thailand in a wind-sprint.

If the reds want to win, and do not care how, they will win.

From one of our newer Thaksan supporters.

What a lot of speculative nonsense.

Lots of if, if, if.

Yes we know that the red cheerleaders would like to burn down Bangkok for Thaksin.

For 500 baht mostly anything goes.

And Thaksin is prepared to pay it.

You supporters of the regime are too easy to prove wrong.

We just say--have an election.

You then say something stupid like--But all the votes will be bought.

We then respond by saying or asking this.

"So the Thais with all the money who now run Thailand do not have money or do not buy votes with it? Nonsense

Just hold an election and honor the winners.

Defending a non-democratic Coup regime with over 20 coups to its credit is not going to win to many argument is it.

Oh yeah

Only 5000 Reds you say?

So the Thai military cannot take out 5000?

Nonsense

Walk the street down Sukhumvit and you will see a solid two miles of reds and that is a few hundred thousand. They occupy building on all sides of the street.

5000?

You really meant that?

That was a really intelligent number.

[LaoPo]

Don't we all have to think it got a lot harder to get Thai military men to charge toward the area the Reds now hold after the army say over 200 of their com rads in arms shot down in roughly 1 minute.

Most were shot with rubber bullets--THIS TIME.

Funny thing is likely the men doing the shooting wearing black with faces covered are also Thai military special forces.

Bet they are telling the boys in the army to stay the heck away or die.

I really doubt that any Thai general can get a strong group to charge again.

After all. most of the army people are Pro Red anyway being from Issan.

I think the next step for the reds is a complete shutdown of Bangkok which they could do easily.

Maybe they will pick out a few buildings owned by Backers of the regime and burn then down to the ground. Who could stop it?

It is easy to start a fire but difficult to put out.

It is easy to start a war but difficult to stop it.

This war, started when the Thai elite regime did the Coup against Thai love Thai.

Often in an all out fight, the loser could be the side that has the most to lose--the current regime.

The Reds mean business.

I think if they wanted to, they could hold the current area against even tank fire. City warfare is impossible to win. The entire city would be gone and the reds would still be alive and fighting.

If the building start to burn, it might be best for all farangs to leave Thailand in a wind-sprint.

If the reds want to win, and do not care how, they will win.

From one of our newer Thaksin supporters.

What a lot of speculative nonsense.

Lots of if, if, if.

Yes we know that the red cheerleaders would like to burn down Bangkok for Thaksin.

For 500 baht mostly anything goes.

And Thaksin is prepared to pay it.

Indeed; that's exactly where the problem is...

If the rural Thai people who are so deadly poor would have more money at their disposal, nobody would travel all the way to BKK to protest...whatever the cause, Thaksin or no Thaksin

A staggering 43% of ALL Thai Laborers are agricultural workers, producing a lousy, mere 12.3% of Thailand's TOTAL GDP....those workers represent 17 million workers....with wives, husbands, children, parents and grandparents to take care of...these people represent the majority of Thailand's people and they are, since centuries POOR...dead poor!

Would YOU do it for Baht 500 ?

I don't think so because you talk from a likely comfortable position.

Easy to comment on those people but go out there yourself and YOU start living in their place and do the same hard work for a few lousy Baht.

Than you will know and realize.

LaoPo

Edited April 17, 2010 by LaoPo

[generalgrant]

New York Times

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/11/world/asia/11thai.html

Overwhelmed in the darkness by thousands of protesters wearing red shirts who ran helter-skelter among them, the soldiers fled, crouching behind their plastic shields. People chased and beat them with sticks as tear gas arced through the dark sky above them and billowed at their feet.

Ambulances picked up the injured as protesters called out, “There’s another hero!”

Unable to clear protesters at Democracy Monument, the military made no attempt at the most visible and tactically difficult site, an intersection bounded by malls and five-star hotels that has now been home to several thousand protesters for a week.

At 9 p.m., after about two hours of battle, a military spokesman, Col. Sansern Kaewkamnerd, said soldiers had been ordered to retreat while the government sought to negotiate with the Red Shirts.

Protest leaders brushed away the overture. On their makeshift stage, they displayed two bodies, one of them with pieces of skull beside his head. They also brought onto the stage several captured soldiers, who were made to view the bodies.

“Tonight we made history,” a protest leader, Arisman Pongruangrong, said. “We defeated the Thai Army with our bare hands.”

As he spoke, protesters struggled to dismantle four armored personnel carriers and at least two Humvees abandoned by the military.

For a month, Mr. Abhisit had been at pains to avoid the use of force, and the Red Shirts, too, had pledged nonviolence. But the prime minister was humiliated Friday when soldiers fell back and failed to stop a Red Shirt invasion of an opposition television station, which had been taken off the air under the emergency decree.

Mr. Abhisit had issued that decree on Wednesday after protesters attacked the Parliament building, forcing cabinet ministers to evacuate by helicopter.

As with those two events, witnesses said two earlier encounters on this day of violence had been started by the Red Shirts.

The protesters also went on the offensive outside Bangkok in rural areas where they are politically dominant, forcing their way into government buildings in Chiang Mai and Udon Thani.

Throughout a day of violence and uncertainty, top military leaders remained silent, as they have throughout the standoff.

Thailand’s military, the leader of 18 coups in the past, has remained publicly neutral during the current confrontation, as it did in 2008 when a similar emergency decree was issued against “yellow shirt” protesters from the other side of the political divide.

The confrontation has its roots in the six-year leadership of Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra, who created an electoral bloc among the country’s poor majority but was ousted in a coup in 2006 that was widely supported by the middle class. He is abroad now, evading arrest for corruption.

In a telling moment of theater near the downtown rally site, thousands of red-shirt protesters confronted an outnumbered cordon of helmeted riot police late in the afternoon. Both sides sat down for a while facing each other. Then the police rose and filed away, ceding the street to the Red Shirts.

As they departed, many of the police officers shook hands and even hugged the protesters. One waved a red plastic clapper used at the rallies.

Young men in red shirts then took over Sukhumvit Road, one of the city’s central arteries, directing traffic and sometimes stopping and inspecting ca

[LaoPo]

.....and....what's more:

Many people, writing and talking about Thaksin do not realize that the Thaksin era is just an era in Thai history.

It was and still is the major "trigger" to something much larger than the present and past protests by the Yellows and Reds...."terrorists" as Abhisit called the latter.

Every Government always call protesters, freedom fighters and the like: Terrorists...

But, it's more than that, much more.

Some amongst you will know and have learned about the French Revolution* which started in 1789 and the Thai situation is almost exactly the same as what happened back than, some 220 years ago.

It was, in short: "The French Revolution (1789–1799) was a period of radical social and political upheaval in French and European history."

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Revolution

(almost) The same will and is happening in and with Thailand.

Napoleon said it and will prove he was correct, again: L'histoire se répète - History repeats itself.

The establishment -the elite and military, fed by the elite families- has made a very dangerous mistake and they have been making that mistake since the early days of the founding of Thailand:

they neglected the backbone of the country: the rural -poor- workers and their families, some 40-45 million people out of Thailand's total of 63 million.

It's payback time and Napoleon's famous remark will prove he was right, once more.

In the end, the people will win, always.

L'histoire se répète and if it's not this Government or the next, in the end Thaksin will be long forgotten, but the poor will demand their respectable place in Thailand's society.

A place they deserve.

LaoPo

[mca]

The culture prides itself in having few formal laws and in resolving disputes informally and personally. The time of that has passed but the deeply rooted culture of settling matters outside the rule of law, to include especially by coup d'etat rather than the rule of law persists and shows no signs or indications of abating.

I don't always agree with your posts Publicus mate but I think you've pretty near hit the nail on the head. It seems as if a lot of locals here regard the law as something that can be ignored if one chooses. From not bothering to stop at a red traffic light all the way up to military coups etc.

What makes me smile is when on occasion a local says to me " Oh the West has so many laws. There's no freedom. "

Well I certainly don't come from a country where hit and run is commonplace with some poor bastard dead at the side of the road and if a local bigwig hits my car then he's paying for it no matter who he is or who he knows so if that's lack of freedom I'm all up for it.

Edited April 17, 2010 by mca