Fix This Bike? Flog It Or Keep It?

[whiterussian]

Please could I have some advice on my frame...

If i get it fixed, would the repair be as strong as the frame before, or will I forever be concerned about the welds breaking?

Just trying to figure out my options, I'm tempted to flog it once repaired.

Very sad day, I loved this bike, so comfortable to ride.

Thank goodness the frame held, I was motoring along and next thing I knew I was riding a long forked chopper!

The irony of it is, tomorrow is the annual bike gang party... I was going to be taking the mountain roads to get there... gulp...

Thanks

this is what it should look like:

Edited April 17, 2010 by whiterussian

[MJo]

Amazing, never seen anything like this. Lucky your still in one piece and didn't crash the bike.

Anyways looks bad, if you get it welded i would be worried on the strenght and getting the geometry right.

And if you opt to sell it after repairs it might be bit difficult with big welds visible indicating it is obviously been welded together after some major damage. Also consider the fact that can you live with it if you sell it and it fails later. Possibly new owner getting hurt or even killed if the welds break.

In theory the welds are as strong as the materials around it so it could be done but i doubt it will be good solution. Maybe you could try to find second hand frame and just switch the engine and tins over. Might be a problem with green book though but should be possible as there is proof of damage to the frame.

In any case nice bike, hope you can salvage most of it.

[lottidotti]

Frame welding is difficult and dangerous. Actually, the frame in a frame alignment bench after welding. I had always been afraid to drive it. If you can not buy a new framework that can enter the old number. Everything else you might pay with your life.

[whiterussian]

Thanks guys, you have echoed my thoughts exactly.

It's going to be a real bitch to get a new frame, the bike IS registered (special deal with the cops up here in CM) - so its good to know I can transfer the numbers.

dam_n dam_n dam_n.

Not too many Suzuki Desperado's around.

I suppose I could build a custom chopper out of it, maybe an old Steed..

boo hoo!

I know a great mechanic here, the best...

You are quite right, that I am lucky to be alive... would have been messy at 100 kph. Sod the 100,000 I've spent getting this bike, and making it legal

Will investigate buying a new/2nd hand frame.. and also getting a custom bike put together.

Should have kept my Honda Super 4!!

Edited April 17, 2010 by whiterussian

[MJo]

Maybe you could import new frame.

I know it is a bitch what comes to bikes but just a frame should be doable especially if you let some local outfit handle the import. They bring the bikes in as parts all the time so one frame should not be a problem.

[visions]

There is only one SAFE way......get another frame...either new or second (dubious) hand.

Welding aluminium, the weld itself is ok but u kill the metal each side of the weld. On a biggish bike I wouldnt risk my life on it after welding. And I couldnt live with the thought of a buyer getting killed either. It could even make u up for manslaughter charges!!

[whiterussian]

I wouldn't hide the welds, there are plenty of Thai's willing to take the risk...

But now it's a question of money...

money is now tight...

I have no idea how much a frame would be? new? phew, i hate to think!?

any ideas?

I suppose a decent checked second hand frame would be ok...

I'm going to the biker meet tomorrow, so I will ask them, but you know the Thai's... and safety...

thanks very much..

There is a biker outfit here.. buys a new Honda steed for 60k, modifies it into some amazing custom choppers and flogs them to a UK chap.

The Thai's make about 40k out of it. Hmm.... I wonder... aggghhh more money!!! But the Suzuki engine is dam_n good!

Edited April 17, 2010 by whiterussian

[Tigersachsclub]

I wouldn't hide the welds, there are plenty of Thai's willing to take the risk...

But now it's a question of money... that 100k is my 'fun' money... money I alloted to buying a bike, or a paramotor... i chose the bike..

money is now too tight...

I have no idea how much a frame would be? new? phew, i hate to think!?

any ideas?

I suppose a decent checked second hand frame would be ok...

thanks

A

Hi there,

I am certain you can find a good secondhand frame ...that shouldn't be too expensive too. The Info below was given to me from Franz on Gt-rider (in regards of my xv 750 that is currently getting restored) and that could be useful for you:

"As for parts, if you have the chance to go to Pattaya there's a chinese-thai shop just opposite Lotus-South Pattaya, called: "Banglamungyon".

Tel: 038-756477, 08-1255-6358

On the back of the shop they have a huge warehouse with 100's of old bikes for taking out parts, here you might get lucky quickly"

hope that helps,

Tiger/Sachs Club-Mbox

[whiterussian]

Tiger/Sachs Club-Mbox

Thanks very much!

Thai Visa does it again!

new(ish) frame it is then!!!

(although I think it looks much nicer as a long forked chopper!)

much happier now...

and I AM ALIVE!!

funny thing is i had a slight premonition before I set off today,

I was chattingto a doctor in my moobaan, and was thinking out loud.."what shall i wear to the go to the village party today... I should wear jeans in case i come off" (I never have-whilst moving!)

The doctor said.. "it wont make any difference, the jeans would shred..."

so shorts it was...and normally i dont even think about the possibility of coming off the bike, or at least i never vocalise it... (always have my helmet, trousers and vest - unlike the rest of the 'gang')

Edited April 17, 2010 by whiterussian

[saorsa]

I welded the frame on my GS1000 chop as it fractured where the downtubes met the gussets at the headstock. Bike was never the same after, so I dont recommend it (maybe my mate was a shit welder tho!)

[seedy]

I have built many bikes, welded many frames. Raked, stretched, shortened - no problem. If the welder is skilled, and the frame is straight, it is a non-issue. The question is why did it break in the first place. Prior damage ? Poor initial welds ?

[thrilled]

I agree there isn't any problem welding A frame.Need A qualified welder

[biker Bob]

I have built many bikes, welded many frames. Raked, stretched, shortened - no problem. If the welder is skilled, and the frame is straight, it is a non-issue. The question is why did it break in the first place. Prior damage ? Poor initial welds ?

Correct the welding isn't the problem but finding a good welder might be.

[newtronbom]

I would go for an imported 2nd hand frame, as imported second hand bike parts are tax free - as in no import tax - I know this for sure, as I checked it out at customs at Klong Tuoey warf. I was looking at doing some thing with 2nd hand bike parts from India and that is how I found this out. If you got it shipped out from Japan by boat, it would not cost too much in freight, but may take some time. Seems an awful shame to toss a beautiful bike like yours and I agree with the other posters that getting it welded here, would be too risky. Also, it looks(from what little can be seen in the pics) like metal fatigue, so there are more than likely other cracks on the frame that you can't see. Just my 10 cents worth, but I think it is doable. There may be parts closer than Japan, like Malaysia, Singapore etc too, but sourcing them could be a problem.

Edited April 18, 2010 by newtronbom

[Richard-BKK]

The location were the frame break, I almost wanted suggest that the frame was welded before maybe to make the frame number match the green-book. Welding a frame, if done right can be without danger. I'm sure that some metal shops in Bangkok know how to do this.

[Loz]

Welding done well is no problem. Find a Good shop and get it fixed. I think it looks better at the FUBAR angle... Good luck

Edited April 18, 2010 by Loz

[whiterussian]

I think it looks better at the FUBAR angle as well!

As predicted, the Thai's think welding is no problem! but... the doctor on my moobaan says he will tell me later why a new frame is the only way to go...

so I'm back to square one!!!

So next step, find out how much a frame costs, second hand and imported...

meanwhile, here is a hastily put together short clip from yesterdays biker party, the new members have to drink far too much, this year it was 75.5% proof Bacardi run between each activity. Real firewater!

[JohnLeech]

The location were the frame break, I almost wanted suggest that the frame was welded before maybe to make the frame number match the green-book. Welding a frame, if done right can be without danger. I'm sure that some metal shops in Bangkok know how to do this.

My thoughts exactly - from what I can see of the welds in your photos, they look a bit rough and not up to the standard of original Suzuki welds particularly when I had a look at a Desperado a friend of mine has and from what I can recall of a Suzuki Goose I had some time ago, where the welds really were well done. They may have been made that way deliberately to cover up a frame number change as cutting out and welding in part of the frame or the neck with the frame number from a wrecked bike with a book, then registering an engine change so that the numbers match for a totally different bike, used to be standard practice a few years ago (two of my bikes were registered like this!), but it can be dangerous and, in any case, the registration offices wised up to it. Any welding there could have weakened the original welds and the frame if they weren't very careful.

Welding it shouldn't be a problem for a good welder, as others have said, but they may have to cut out and replace quite a bit of the frame if it has been welded badly before.

I go past Euan's (the bike shop Mbox mentioned) occasionally so I can call in and ask if he has a Desperado frame but I wouldn't be too hopeful as there are not many about, as you say. He will probably be able to tell you on the phone, anyway, and he speaks good English - I bought the Goose from him several years ago when he was in Naklua; the problem with a second-hand frame, obviously, is that the frame numbers won't match any more and you may not have any documentation, so that would be another problem to sort.

Lucky you chose the bike - a similar failure on the para-motor would have been pretty interesting!

[thaicbr]

obviously, is that the frame numbers won't match any more and you may not have any documentation, so that would be another problem to sort.

here in thailand that is not a problem. grinder and frame stamps. job done. seen it done looks like original.

[Travelmate]

Just weld it & then flog it ASAP.

Buy a solid replacement.

Save dicking about with a replacement frame.

[whiterussian]

Lucky you chose the bike - a similar failure on the para-motor would have been pretty interesting!

HaHa yes indeed. Thats partly why I am hesistant to buy a Thai made paramotor!! Plus I am 95kg, and the average Thai.. maybe 70?

Not worried about the cops and frames... The Thai bike gangs up here ganged together and made deals with a local police force... to get mine 'legal' cost me 20,000, my pals Harley cost 40 or 50,000. The cops must have made tens of millions.... Sorry, I meant the local authorities, must have made tens of millions! It was a limited time offer by the cops...

In fact I think I know what the problem was...

My front suspension was kapput... I needed new rings.. very cheap.. but being new to all this (only 4 years in the saddle), I had a mai pen rai attitude...

My trusted mechanic friend told me every time I saw him to get it fixed, but I thought it was just because of a bit of a bumpy ride..., and of course it being an uncommon bike, I would have to track down a supplier...

Now I know... I think a nasty ridge must have whacked the forks up into the frame... most probably at a high speed.

And I will add that to my checklist of things to check on the bike...

Will call that shop when I get a mo, or if you happen to be going, that of course would be marvelous!

So much to do first... organise a party of 5 to lift the bike onto the pickup and off again at the mechanics... at the one horse town where I left the bike...

he is good, the best around. Fix or replace, next mission is getting it to him!

Edited April 19, 2010 by whiterussian

[thaicbr]

get it welded. If ya think about it the thai manufacters like Tiger Motorcycles weld their own frames (been there seen it) so with a good welder its easy to achieve. you never know Tiger may even do it if ya ask. if not how much do you want for the engine and forks

[Thanh-BKK]

Hi.

I've had my frame welded too but it was broken in the rear or rather in the middle, multiple breaks previously "glued together" with rebar as reinforcement. Bought a second bike of the same type without book for 2,500 Baht (got another engine and other goodies along with the rear end of the frame that i needed) and had it reinforced at the same time - solid steel rods into the frame tubes where they broke, then welded back together, that won't break or bend again in a lifetime.

Done by a small somchai-type shop for 400 Baht, rides as good as new and perfectly straight.

Best regards....

Thanh

[JohnLeech]

obviously, is that the frame numbers won't match any more and you may not have any documentation, so that would be another problem to sort.

here in thailand that is not a problem. grinder and frame stamps. job done. seen it done looks like original.

/money

That's what a lot of bike dealers thought until a few years ago, when they got stung very badly and lost a lot of bikes/money. The problem is that while you may think it "looks like original" it seldom does when you compare it to the actual original that the registration offices have a copy of. It was possible to get away with a lot more a few years ago, and if you are lucky and in the right area there are still some things you can get away with, but I would prefer not to recommend someone does something that could cost them their bike or, at worst, cost them or someone else their life.

..... and WR, I'm not so sure about that "nasty ridge" idea, although it may have contributed to the problem. The Desperado forks are particularly strong, like most "upside-down" forks, and if you think they could have damaged the frame welds like that what do you think they would have done to your arms/wrists? It may be worth checking if anything was actually "done" to the frame or neck to "make it 'legal'".

[thaicbr]

you may think it "looks like original" it seldom does when you compare it to the actual original that the registration offices have

Wow. so the transport office are going to check your frame number from the tape that was stuck to a piece of paper 14 years ago. I DONT THINK SO.

Have you seen it done. the frame stamping i mean. I have. It was perfect. The people had different stamps for different makes. (by the way it was not my bike, but a thais)

Any way i think the OP would be better to get it welded up. much easier than trying to find a frame than the hassle of import ect.

[Richard-BKK]

The problem of getting a new frame is that the whole bike needs to be re-registered, plus a whole lot of paperwork (and several payment on the table and likely a few under the table) for the custom/tax office as the bike becomes a build from parts bike. With re-registering the bike you could hit a few problems, the first major one is the emission testing - it's unlikely that it will pass the current exhaust emission test.

Basically, if you want to keep the rebuild cost below 100,000 Bht your only option is "welding"... If you have problems with welding, I bet you can find somebody who would buy you bike in current condition.

[JohnLeech]

Wow. so the transport office are going to check your frame number from the tape that was stuck to a piece of paper 14 years ago. I DONT THINK SO.

I KNOW SO.

All these records are now computerised, so they don't need the tape, just a scan. If I hadn't "seen it done", didn't know some of those who had been doing this for years, and didn't know how the system had changed and was being enforced I wouldn't have commented as I did; Advising others on how to circumvent the law based on one incident of what one person got away with an indeterminate time ago is not my idea of constructive advice. Sorry.

WR, I called in on Euan - he doesn't think he has a Desperado frame, but he says he is going to look and will let me know if he finds one or alternatvely you can come and look yourself; I think this means "I don't have one/can't be bothered to look for it unless I see some money!"

[Richard-BKK]

@JohnLeech

With a new frame the OP doesn't get past the exhaust emission test, all bikes who go for registration now need to pass exhaust emission test - the Suzuki Desperado is very likely to fail this test... And buying a new (secondhand) frame, you not only look at the cost of the frame, but you have to keep in mind that the whole transaction of moving to a new frame can cost over 100,000 Baht.

Therefore it's better option to search for a good welding company which can do this sort of a job...

[vision]

Man I am not 100% from those pics but it sure looks like the exposed metal (on the uptube not the backbone) on your fresh fracture is rusted. Or in other words your new fracture may be from an old crack that has just been creeping along for who knows how long? To get to where you are 2 tubes had to fail and one crack rather grossly. Rarely ever will something like this go from fine to fail in an instant and even rarer if is was not preceded by an event. Guys check your bikes every once in a while especially around the neck area, look for rust cracks or even inconsistencies in the paint that may warrant closer inspection.

I wouldn't even consider a new frame because competent welder can make this frame good as new or if you are worried he can even add metal slugs, sleeving or both to make it stronger then new. If I were you I would be considering if you want to weld it at the old angle or if you want to "rake it out". If you do opt to add rake to the bike you will need to re-calculate your trail to keep the bike tracking safe.

Edited April 22, 2010 by vision

[whiterussian]

Thanks for all the replies. Quick update, finally managed to the bike carted off to my master mechanic up here in CM.

He took one look and shook his head. "Sell it".

He says he will weld it together with strong reinforcement, but that the bike will never handle the curves the same again.

I did bring up the question.. "what about the next person to buy it.. I dont want to hide the repairs..not be responsible for whatever..."

He said.. "mai pen rai.. koon Thai not same as farang".

Well anyway.. he is welding it to the best of his ability (which is awesome - he is the main bodywork man for a lot of bike gangs up here)...

then i guess i sell it... please spare me any more moral dilemmas... the guy is going to weld it properly...

The cracks must have been old, and sold to me with them... or i just flogged the bike too hard.

Im thinking of buying a paramotor instead...

which i had enough cash for an Africa Twin though...

moral of the story. look after your front shocks, and check for cracks on old bike... often!