Rules For Us Expats Keep Getting Nastier And Nastier

[BEENTHEREDONETHAT]

Getting more difficult for US expats to bank at home or away. Many foreign banks and US banks not opening accounts for US passport holders.

nytimes.com/2010/04/26/us/26expat.html?src=me&ref=general

Stringent new banking regulations — aimed both at curbing tax evasion and, under the Patriot Act, preventing money from flowing to terrorist groups — have inadvertently made it harder for some expats to keep bank accounts in the United States and in some cases abroad.

Some U.S.-based banks have closed expats’ accounts because of difficulty in certifying that the holders still maintain U.S. addresses, as required by a Patriot Act provision.

[123ace]

Blame the founding fathers - Just another reason America should have remained a colony.

[KAL]

Blame the founding fathers - Just another reason America should have remained a colony.

What a ridiculous comment! You must not be an American. Things may be more strict, but the bottom line is that it is for safety reasons and to help prevent people from breaking the law.

[losworld]

Sounds like Big Brother and Orwell 1984 to me. These Draconian security laws invade people's privacy and violate their constitutional rights and fools allow it in the name of "security". What a threat these so called terrorists have been... not a major strike to the U.S. since a bunch of wing nuts boarded a jet with box cutters. WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam and now all it takes a few loonies in a jet to strip Americans of their rights. Perhaps there is an ulterior motive at work?

[Naam]

Blame the founding fathers - Just another reason America should have remained a colony.

What a ridiculous comment! You must not be an American. Things may be more strict, but the bottom line is that it is for safety reasons and to help prevent people from breaking the law.

:D

[Naam]

Sounds like Big Brother and Orwell 1984 to me. These Draconian security laws invade people's privacy and violate their constitutional rights and fools allow it in the name of "security". What a threat these so called terrorists have been... not a major strike to the U.S. since a bunch of wing nuts boarded a jet with box cutters. WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam and now all it takes a few loonies in a jet to strip Americans of their rights.

Perhaps there is an ulterior motive at work?

the ulterior motive is... TAXES

[flying]

Things may be more strict, but the bottom line is that it is for safety reasons and to help prevent people from breaking the law.

:D

figured you would catch that one

Yes all this patriot act BS only takes away rights from us & does nothing for our protection because actually we never needed it to begin with.

False flags flapping only scare the sheep

[CWMcMurray]

The problem is that while it is good to "prevent people from breaking the law" it is import to also not lose sight of the affect non "non law breakers".

Perphaps a better way to would be to work behind the scence in "following the money" of "Law Breakers" and then catch them rather than set a process that could have a very serious effect on "non law breakers".

What would an expat who has not lived in the US for many years do if suddenly all his bank accounts both in the US and overseas were closed? Would it be fair that the only cause would be that he/she did not live within the USA?

[Nio]

follow the rules and there is no problem

[Langsuan Man]

Or renounce your citizenship and the problem is solved

Oh but no, you don't want to do that do, you want the best of both worlds, the protections that US Citizenship gives you but none of the responsibilities

YOU chose to be an expat no one put a gun to your head and said "go forth and live in Thailand"

[kpmsprtd]

Only two sheep out of several respondents, which is why I enjoy my yearly trip to Thailand, where I can interact with the relatively few who don't believe the lies. Safety my ass! At this point, I am much more scared of the real threat to my safety and liberty that this crazy security apparatus represents than I am about some hypothetical terrorists. Start an airline with no security hassles, no wanna-be cops, no nothing, and I will be one of the first to buy a ticket.

"Oh, but you should be grateful to the apparatus for protecting you," protest the sheep. "They are doing it for your own good." Just like Cool Hand Luke, though, I must request that the apparatus "Please, stop being so good to me, boss."

[flying]

Or renounce your citizenship and the problem is solved

Oh but no, you don't want to do that do, you want the best of both worlds, the protections that US Citizenship gives you but none of the responsibilities

YOU chose to be an expat no one put a gun to your head and said "go forth and live in Thailand"

Ummm actually many of us still live here in the US & do not like the idea of our Constitutional rights being trampled under the guise of security.

Rather than renounce our citizenship we prefer to take it back.

Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.

Benjamin Franklin

[hustlehouse]

here we go again. a bunch of talkers which....................they'll just comply somehow with the apparatus their regulations in place.

Good rules for bad people or bad rules for good people? Now this is the question.

[witold]

Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.

Benjamin Franklin

Ah yes, the good old liberty to cheat on taxes. Things were much better when IRS wasn't computerized and didn't have all the checks and balances it does no.

It's also quite amusing for someone living under Thai monarchy, weak rule of law, and fairly rampant corruption complaining about Liberty.

[BEENTHEREDONETHAT]

Let's assume you have lived in Thailand or any foreign country for 20 years or so and you decide you want to go to a different country. Being American more and more foreign banks are saying no to opening accounts if you have a US passport. Now most will agree it is dam_n hard to get along without a bank account, I don't care where you live. Even if you say OK I will move back to the US, but whoops you can't open a bank account there until you have an address. Since you have no FICO score most people will not rent to you. You say it is because you are a tax cheat. The bank does not ask for your 1040 to open an account. They just want to comply with big brother's rules. The overseas banks don't want to give you an account because they don't want to put up with the rules and tons of paperwork big brother is trying to put on them.

It has nothing to do with whether you have paid your taxes or not it. The govt has mismanaged the money for so long and spend spend spend. Now they desperately need more taxes. I think they would be willing to spend $10 to collect $5.

Then we have the people who don't have squat and they say they happily pay their taxes when in reality they are probably collecting more benefits than they pay taxes on. Quite happy to have others support them and feel very righteous about it and object to the thought of having to support themselves. But who can complain about a system that almost half of the people have to support the half that don't want to work.

[Jingthing]

follow the rules and there is no problem

Not really. I have to lie to my US banking institutions about having a US address when I don't really live there. You either do that, or have the increasing problems talked about in the article. Now we have issues with foreign banks not wanting to deal with us. Its getting worse.

[samuibeachcomber]

Blame the founding fathers - Just another reason America should have remained a colony.

[Jingthing]

I wouldn't be surprised at all if EVENTUALLY these US banking issues and now the associated issues of foreign banks not wanting to deal with Americans is the reason forcing me back to the US against my will (rather than Thai immigration rules, or civil war here). Giving up my citizenship is not an option for me; I would never do that.

[lopburi3]

If you read the article you will also find this quote:

In response, Treasury Secretary Timothy F. Geithner wrote Ms. Maloney on Feb. 24 that “nothing in U.S. financial law and regulation should make it impossible for Americans living abroad to access financial services here in the United States.”

It appears to be a bank issue - not a government regulation.

[Carmine6]

follow the rules and there is no problem

The problem is, while individuals can control their end, there is no guarantee that banks will just meet the minimum requirements or interpret the regulations the same way. Many banks implement policies that are more restrictive than the law requires. I think the reason the NY Times article says "some" banks and not all banks is because there seems to be no such requirement in the Patriot Act.

The Patriot Act only specified that minimum identification requirements be set up. See SEC. 326. VERIFICATION OF IDENTIFICATION in the Patriot Act. It was up to the Treasury to specify any additional requirements, and even they did not make any requirement about maintaining a US address. I can't find any references to foreign addresses or expats in the Patriot Act or the Treasury website.

The closest I find from the Treasury website is

"The final rule therefore provides that a bank generally must obtain a residential or business street address for a customer who is an individual..." "Treasury and the Agencies recognize that this provision may be impracticable for members of the military who cannot readily provide a physical address, and other individuals who do not have a physical address... Accordingly, the final rule provides an exception under these circumstances that allows a bank to obtain an Army Post Office or Fleet Post Office box number, or the residential or business street address of next of kin or of another contact individual."

It does not say the residential address must be in the US.

An easy to read description:

http://www.occ.treas.gov/cdd/Ezines/spring...customer_id.htm

http://www.ustreas.gov/press/releases/js335.htm

See relevant Treasury guidance documents including a link to the Patriot Act here:

http://www.occ.treas.gov/BSA/BSARegs.htm

All they require is:

The rule requires that financial institutions develop a Customer Identification Program (CIP) that implements reasonable procedures to:

1) Collect identifying information about customers opening an account

2) Verify that the customers are who they say they are

3) Maintain records of the information used to verify their identity

4) Determine whether the customer appears on any list of suspected terrorists or terrorist organizations

It is up to banks to determine how they "Verify that the customers are who they say they are." Some banks clearly have decided they don't "know their customer" if that person has a foreign address.

A "non-local address" is one of the Treasury's money-laundering red flags for deposit accounts. Another is transfers of cash outside the US. Not really surprising that some general counsels get skittish. If this really were a requirement from the Patriot Act, wouldn't ex-pats in Thailand have said something 7 years ago? I've seen more than one US ex-pat mention a Thai address on their account to get ATM cards and things.

[tgw]

It's also quite amusing for someone living under Thai monarchy, weak rule of law, and fairly rampant corruption complaining about Liberty.

There is more liberty in Thailand than in most western countries, despite the monarchy and despite some rules.

In Thailand you need money to exercise your liberty, while at home you can exercise your liberty to piss rich people off enough until they give you some money, which anyway is not enough to feel free.

[lannarebirth]

It has nothing to do with whether you have paid your taxes or not it. The govt has mismanaged the money for so long and spend spend spend. Now they desperately need more taxes. I think they would be willing to spend borrow $10 to collect $5.

[Naam]

follow the rules and there is no problem

Not really. I have to lie to my US banking institutions about having a US address when I don't really live there. You either do that, or have the increasing problems talked about in the article. Now we have issues with foreign banks not wanting to deal with us. Its getting worse.

the issue is not new JT but several years old, in fact much older than the Patriot Act. i don't think anybody will have problems to open a bank account in most foreign countries to which his income is transferred from the U.S.

real problems exist since years for U.S. citizens to open a bank account as well as a portfolio holding financial assets which are (more or less) frequently traded/shuffled. it is the latter what the banks don't like because it involves too much administrative hassle/work for which they don't get paid.

[BEENTHEREDONETHAT]

Assuming it is going to get worse before it gets any better. Does anyone have any suggestions on how to minimize the problem? I have thoughts on it which I will add after more research.

[phetaroi]

Or renounce your citizenship and the problem is solved

Oh but no, you don't want to do that do, you want the best of both worlds, the protections that US Citizenship gives you but none of the responsibilities

YOU chose to be an expat no one put a gun to your head and said "go forth and live in Thailand"

That's not a reasonable statement.

Yes, I am choosing to live in Thailand. But I still pay my full US taxes on my retirement pensions. Exactly what other "responsibility" am I shrugging off?

[slapout]

Blame the founding fathers - Just another reason America should have remained a colony.

What a ridiculous comment! You must not be an American. Things may be more strict, but the bottom line is that it is for safety reasons and to help prevent people from breaking the law.

:¡This cheese is burning me!: :¡This cheese is burning me!: :¡This cheese is burning me!:

Have to wholeheartedly agree with Naams assessment of this statement. This new decree would not even appear to be a positive modification to the old 'mouse trap model'.

[buddy]

Sounds like Big Brother and Orwell 1984 to me. These Draconian security laws invade people's privacy and violate their constitutional rights and fools allow it in the name of "security". What a threat these so called terrorists have been... not a major strike to the U.S. since a bunch of wing nuts boarded a jet with box cutters. WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam and now all it takes a few loonies in a jet to strip Americans of their rights. Perhaps there is an ulterior motive at work?

"

The "Land of the free" evaporated in the last Century...6 Corporations control the media, the Federal Reserve is a private Bank, National Identity Cards, Patriot act and so many other laws and taxes now make it impossible to do anything without Government permission, and still Americans and similaraly most other Western Nationals think they live in a Democracy ??

For the fans of Thailand, even with all its faults have you ever wondered why when you visited Thailand on your first holiday from your industrialized Nations that you felt free, ponder this question??...was it because you did not feel free at home??

Most people are hopelessly disenfranchised in there own Countries, at the moment there is an election looming in the UK, the head may change after May 6th but the machine underneath will not.

Expect more debt slavery, Government uncontrolled borrowing that you, your children and your childrens children will have to pay back through high taxation long after the man who enslaved you, Gordon Brown is dead, and expect more erosion of the little liberties you have left...there is nothing you can do short of anarchy which is not the way to go...wake up!....Enlighten your self with alternative media sources such as the must watch at www.sprword.com

[buddy]

follow the rules and there is no problem

Really...and who's rules might they be then?

[Langsuan Man]

You either learn how to play the game or let the game crush you

Anyone that can use a computer can obtain a "US street address " Just do a Google search and you will find many solutions

But no, people here would rather whine and complain and fill their lives with DRAMA

[Lancelot]

the ulterior motive is... TAXES

the issue is not new JT but several years old, in fact much older than the Patriot Act. i don't think anybody will have problems to open a bank account in most foreign countries to which his income is transferred from the U.S.

real problems exist since years for U.S. citizens to open a bank account as well as a portfolio holding financial assets which are (more or less) frequently traded/shuffled. it is the latter what the banks don't like because it involves too much administrative hassle/work for which they don't get paid.

Well, I think Naam has put his finger on. The increase in regulations makes it more costly for many firms to administer the related expenses with their US national clients. It probabl also depends on the "Net Worth" of the investor. I doubt that Waren Buffett has any difficulty in opening an account in any country whereas Lance and his pittiful amount of cash is not really sought out for his business.

I've opened two bank accounts here in Thailand and that was never a problem. They allow you to deposit as much as you want