Nightmare At Samui Immigration

[parallaxtech]

I find it sad when reading a thread such as this that when someone follows all the rules and does everything exactly as the Thai rules require them to do, that it comes down to a government officials interpretation of the Law as they see it that day, or just how they feel that day !

I can understand and agree with the governments wish to get rid of “Inappropriate Guests” that reside and stay here in Thailand, but all the rules they make, and apply, catch others who reside here legally and beneficially to the economy of Thailand, but as always, we are second class citizens not wanted here in this country by many Thais who look down on us.

If only they could see themselves as the rest of the world see them!! They can never move forward and achieve anything until they get rid of the corruption and bias that continues to be rooted within all legal departments.

You only have to look at daily happenings here in Thailand to see how just about everything is so screwed up.

I don’t want to get into any debate about living here in Thailand, you make your own choices, and it works for me at the moment, but it is far from ideal on so many different levels.

I just find it very Sad.

Well said, P, and thankyou for your sentiments. I follow all rules, requirements, laws, as I have my entire life, not that I'm a saint, just never like to be questioned by police for any reason. I did not march into Samui Imm with my lawyer demanding action, as Samuian indicated. I carried all the proper documentation and more and was firmly told "no, get out and go home w/o a visa." I then politely asked if my lawyer could interpret for me as I obviously lost something in translation. They told me to get the PM if I wanted but the answer was still no. I then got my lawyer to come over and they told him to get out. So, this is not a case of a cowboy American demanding action or perish. If you knew me you would understand. I am a retired physician who also worked in overseas hospitals that were funded by the US Government, so I've been around government officials all my life. The more someone shouts at me the calmer I get. This is simply a case of a very corrupt and sadistic government official.

Do need help on something, though. Herbert has agreed to go on Monday morning and speak to them on my behalf to find out what the real problem is. He suspects it's just a matter of money. I'm concerned that if he does get an extension stamp, how do I know it's legitimate? If they are taking money under the table they probably can't record it as an official stamp. Look at Samui Express this month about arresting farangs with visa stamps issued by travel agencies. So, perhaps the solution is to ask for at least an invoice for 1900THB with the extension number on it. Any ideas from people who know Herbert?

[PoorSucker]

Just pay the 5000 bht they want for the extension.

End of problem.

This thread makes me believe it's not worth the hassle to ask for a receipt.

My extensions take 5 min.

90 day reporting 2 min.

[FarangBuddha]

The OP's problem has nothing to do with his original OA visa - which has been pointed out, expired several years ago. His problem is to do with the inexplicable thinking of the IO in Samui when processing his extension.

Thanks, JS, correct. I never raised my voice, followed all the rules, had much more money than they required, and they were as mean to me as a policeman would be if I had killed his partner. I pleaded with them, "What do you suggest or what can I do?" They said get out of the office and go home! I am really surprised that there is nobody to contact in Bangkok to report this. My lawyer asked for his name, but he refused to give it. When I asked him why they had changed the rules about the 800KB not having interest, he just said it was his rule. My lawyer said he wouldn't have given me an extension no matter how much I had in the account. I emailed bangkok IMM last year, no reply. I called them today and they just said I have to work with the rules in KS since I live here.

I just don't understand all the high drama in this situation. I understand that the op got himself into a situation where his visa-extension is about to expire and this was caused by a local "interpretation" of the rules by the immigration folks in Samui. The first lesson in all this is to not wait till the last minute to renew a "retirement" extension. Should always be done at least a week to 10 days before expiry...in case some hick-up like this develops.

But back to the issue of funds...again, the easiest solution is to just go to Bangkok and get a pension/monthly funds letter. Present this, along with a few hundred thousand (or in this fellow's case, a few million [silly]) baht in the bank and get the extension. This can be done as long as the visa-extension is still good. If not, pop down to Penang, get a single-entry non-imm O (for purposes of retirement [showing Thai bank statements if necessary]) and then along with the embassy letter start the extension process anew (and keep doing this year to year).

Or, again, if necessary, get a new visa and just deposit the minimum required money in a bank savings account and after "seasoning" apply for your extensions.

Really, I've been doing this for 10 years without a hitch...you all can too

[Sunny Valentine]

I am wondering what Bangkok Immigration would do in a case where a person applies for an extension on permission to stay, who before this application resided in say Samui, but he tells the officer that he is about to move to Bangkok now. He shows a rental contract (maybe one week with option to extend) from a serviced apartment, explaining that he is currently looking for a more permanent residence, but hasn't made a decision yet.

I cant see that Bangkok would refuse the application? And what would happen if the applicant then later decides to change his mind, and return to say Samui?

[Lite Beer]

A good point raised earlier.

Never wait until the last minute.

I always apply a month early . If there is a problem you then have some time to sort it out.

[parallaxtech]

A good point raised earlier.

Never wait until the last minute.

I always apply a month early . If there is a problem you then have some time to sort it out.

I reported a week earlier last year and was refused. They told me to come back within two days of the expiration. I always do what they tell me -- six months early is no problem for me. I think the crux of the matter is that it depends on which officer you see. For the last five years I saw the same officer, but he is not there anymore, nor is any of the other staff.

[parallaxtech]

Thanks, JS, correct. I never raised my voice, followed all the rules, had much more money than they required, and they were as mean to me as a policeman would be if I had killed his partner. I pleaded with them, "What do you suggest or what can I do?" They said get out of the office and go home! I am really I just don't understand all the high drama in this situation. I understand that the op got himself into a situation where his visa-extension is about to expire and this was caused by a local "interpretation" of the rules by the immigration folks in Samui. The first lesson in all this is to not wait till the last minute to renew a "retirement" extension. Should always be done at least a week to 10 days before expiry...in case some hick-up like this develops.

But back to the issue of funds...again, the easiest solution is to just go to Bangkok and get a pension/monthly funds letter. Present this, along with a few hundred thousand (or in this fellow's case, a few million [silly]) baht in the bank and get the extension. This can be done as long as the visa-extension is still good. If not, pop down to Penang, get a single-entry non-imm O (for purposes of retirement [showing Thai bank statements if necessary]) and then along with the embassy letter start the extension process anew (and keep doing this year to year).

Or, again, if necessary, get a new visa and just deposit the minimum required money in a bank savings account and after "seasoning" apply for your extensions.

Really, I've been doing this for 10 years without a hitch...you all can too

Thanks, I will probably go to KL on Tuesday, but I want Herbert to at least try on Monday to see if it is a matter of a few thousand baht.

Said previously, I went last year one week before expiration and was refused -- told to come back two days before. Again, I do as I'm told and don't argue with Imm officials. I don't have a pension, so don't think Embassy will give me a letter. In ten years I will qualify for a pension (SS).

I have also received extensions for the last five years w/o a hitch until now and I actually have more money in the Thai banks than I did previously.

What concerns me is Herbert said they might refuse me every year for no reason, so we need to try and find out what the problem is. So far no money has been mentioned, so just have to wait until Monday morning. I will follow up on Monday.

One bit of advice for all farangs out there with 800KTHB in the bank. Make sure you have a straight savings acct. If you are with SCB make sure you do not have a "fund book" account (savings account with interest). I still think this was an excuse they used, but they might use it on you and refuse your extension.

[parallaxtech]

Just pay the 5000 bht they want for the extension.

End of problem.

This thread makes me believe it's not worth the hassle to ask for a receipt.

My extensions take 5 min.

90 day reporting 2 min.

Never asked for 5K or anything else, just refused the extension. I even saw him outside and asked what I could do to get my extension and he simply said to go home!

[goldfinger]

....to at least try on Monday to see if it is a matter of a few thousand baht.

Parallaxtech, and if so, what you want to do?

[Lite Beer]

I reported a week earlier last year and was refused. They told me to come back within two days of the expiration.

I cannot understand what is going on here.

Every Immigration Office will extend within the final 30 days of your permission to stay.

Some even advise applying 2 months early.

When I lived in Samui I always applied a month early.

I am not saying that I disbelieve you but it all seems a bit odd.

[parallaxtech]

....to at least try on Monday to see if it is a matter of a few thousand baht.

Parallaxtech, and if so, what you want to do?

Decided not to do this as I don't want to start bribing gov't officials and possibly end up with a false stamp (read Samui Express this month) that will put me in prison. I will do as others suggested and fly to Malaysia tomorrow for an O visa.

Thanks to all of you again who helped. I really appreciate it and am happy to know there are some good people on TV.

Edited May 8, 2010 by parallaxtech

[gusG]

^^ As I wrote before, new boss, new standards, new attitude.

Edited May 8, 2010 by gusG

[parallaxtech]

I reported a week earlier last year and was refused. They told me to come back within two days of the expiration.

I cannot understand what is going on here.

Every Immigration Office will extend within the final 30 days of your permission to stay.

Some even advise applying 2 months early.

When I lived in Samui I always applied a month early.

I am not saying that I disbelieve you but it all seems a bit odd.

LB: I will try it again at the end of my three months and apply a few weeks earlier. Again, things have really changed here and not for the better. If you do everything they say and have all the proper documents and they still refuse your extension what can you do? i just want to do things properly and legally and not act like a drug dealer sneaking around and paying off gov't officials to look the other way. I think that it's corrupt enough without feeding it more.

[Tanaka]

Just pay the 5000 bht they want for the extension.

End of problem.

This thread makes me believe it's not worth the hassle to ask for a receipt.

My extensions take 5 min.

90 day reporting 2 min.

And how much do you pay every time?

[samuibeachcomber]

I remember being told by Samui immigration a couple of years ago that the 800,000 has to be in a normal savings account,where they can see a history of yearly transactions,and of course it needs to be at that level and more(to cover the 2 months seasoning)2 months prior to renewal.This does not prohibit you having a better interest bearing account with any amount of extra savings.When my renewal became due i went along 1 week before and was able to show that 2 months prior i had 950,000 baht in my account.And obviously more than the required amount at time of renewal.So no problem.

This seasoning of money can be a real pain sometimes,either because of exchange rates,or losing interest back home and i sometimes wonder if the retirement extension is worth the trouble.The only thing it saves is the 90 day border run,which can always be viewed as a forced holiday.Just having the non immigration O can be better,plus it can give you 15 months if you time the border runs correctly.

[jackdawson]

I think that it's corrupt enough.

sounds like u've really found a piece of paradise .

let us know how much your trip and legals fees add up to compared to the donation to the policeman widows and orphans fund that may have gotten u want you came in for

[brahmburgers]

Reading this thread reminds me of how subjective the Imm people are. Plus the rules are mutable, and subjectively interpreted by bureaucrats, depending on their mood, the appearance of the applicant, the bleakness of their romantic pursuits, and any of myriad other factors.

[Mario2008]

From police order 777/2551:

4. If the applicant does not fully meet the qualifications as prescribed by this order, the competent official shall inform the applicant for his/her denial and he/she departs within 7 days after the permission date ended.

In case the applicant wishes to review the denial by the orders mentioned in clause 1, the applicant shall re-submit an application for another review, citing the reasons for the re-submission in a letter to a competent official holding a rank of a police inspector and higher. This is for the purpose of obtaining a decision in writing on the application. In this case, the applicant may attach all supporting documents to the application for re-submission at the same time. The review shall be carried out within the time limit prescribed by paragraph 1. During the proceeding of the consideration, the competent official shall set the date of result hearing within 7 days after the review application is submitted.

So you have to option of getting a decision in writing and with that the potential to bring it under scrutiny. But always consider the wisdom of such action. Often it is much simpler to oblige immigration when they have some strange request.

[parallaxtech]

From police order 777/2551:

4. If the applicant does not fully meet the qualifications as prescribed by this order, the competent official shall inform the applicant for his/her denial and he/she departs within 7 days after the permission date ended.

In case the applicant wishes to review the denial by the orders mentioned in clause 1, the applicant shall re-submit an application for another review, citing the reasons for the re-submission in a letter to a competent official holding a rank of a police inspector and higher. This is for the purpose of obtaining a decision in writing on the application. In this case, the applicant may attach all supporting documents to the application for re-submission at the same time. The review shall be carried out within the time limit prescribed by paragraph 1. During the proceeding of the consideration, the competent official shall set the date of result hearing within 7 days after the review application is submitted.

So you have to option of getting a decision in writing and with that the potential to bring it under scrutiny. But always consider the wisdom of such action. Often it is much simpler to oblige immigration when they have some strange request.

Mario: I am in the airport now on my way to KL for a new visa. I thank you very much for this info and only wish I had known it yesterday. I am wondering if the police inspector has to be within Immigration or in the Samui Police. I spoke to three people there who all claimed to be supervisors, wore no badges, and refused to provide their names. When I asked for the next highest person they just said, "Not here." I saw pictures of several officers on a board in Immigration, but don't know how to contact them.

Should I ask at the Thai Embassy in KL, as maybe they have an inspector's name in Bangkok?

The corruption in Samui is only getting worse so it's time somebody at least question it politely. If you meet or exceed all requirements for a visa extension the least they can do is explain why they are not granting the extension. Plus, I will need to return there in three months, so I don't want to be facing this problem each time.

This situation is no problem for people who like to travel internationally, but I am one of the rare people who doesn't want to leave. I have a beautiful Thai wife, home, and enough money, so am completely content here. Being forced to leave this country upsets me to no end.

I will enter any progress I make on TV.

[Mario2008]

There is a government information line: 1111, where you can also get information about immigration from immigraiton officers. If you have question you can always call them and they will assist you.

[parallaxtech]

I think that it's corrupt enough.

sounds like u've really found a piece of paradise .

let us know how much your trip and legals fees add up to compared to the donation to the policeman widows and orphans fund that may have gotten u want you came in for

Jack, thanks, but money is not a problem for me. No offense to anyone who pays bribes, but I have only three real friends here that I trust, and their question to me was, "If you are paying a corrupt government official, what is the difference between you and the scum you are facing? You may get what you want, but what does that say about you. And it also makes it more difficult for all the other farangs who are trying to do things legally. My friends have never paid a bribe and never will as they all say they could never face themselves in the mirror the next day. I happen to feel the same way. I will pay whatever it takes to stay legal, but will also take this matter as high as I can at Thai Immigration and the US Embassy.

[Utley]

As a U.S. citizen you have a very easy solution available to you. Instead of using your bank accounts to verify your financial ability to live in Thailand, go the the U.S. Embassy in Bangkok and obtain a letter from them certifying your annual income. I do that every year with no problem.

Send me a PM if you want more information.

[TaoNow]

Regarding the suggestion that you should have the 800K in a "straight non-interest-bearing savings account" -- Lopburi3 pointed out at the beginning of this thread that every savings account in a local bank accrues interest.

So that is a bogus (and nonsensical) justification for refusing OP's extension application.

Another poster suggests that Samui IO are accepting bribes (e.g., 5,000 baht a pop). But the fact that the IO never gave you this option suggests that (lack of) a bribe was not the issue in your case.

Something is truly weird about OP's experience and this new Immo officer.

Hopefully, more Samui ex-pats will report on their interactions with this fellow, at least to determine if this is one person's grudge or a policy of the entire Samui Immo office.

I would like to join those other TV members who strongly oppose paying a bribe to an Immo official to obtain approval of the retirement extension.

[Langsuan Man]

As a U.S. citizen you have a very easy solution available to you. Instead of using your bank accounts to verify your financial ability to live in Thailand, go the the U.S. Embassy in Bangkok and obtain a letter from them certifying your annual income. I do that every year with no problem.

Send me a PM if you want more information.

Simplest solution to the problem

If you have some "moral qualms" then look at it as YOU are funding your retirement via your savings which equal at least 65,000 THB per month which you state to the Embassy and they just say that you stated it

This is probably the ONLY time being a US citizen pays off. NO proof required

[Mario2008]

You certify you have that income, not savings to live on. Making a false declaration is a federal offence and subject to prosecution if found out.

[CHdiver]

My advice at the OP, when you are in Malaysia have a good look around. You may like that country. Easier to stay there and you can even own your house legally under the second home law ( or called similar). No hassle from Immigration, they are actually smiling at the border (at least to me). Just a thought...

[parallaxtech]

As a U.S. citizen you have a very easy solution available to you. Instead of using your bank accounts to verify your financial ability to live in Thailand, go the the U.S. Embassy in Bangkok and obtain a letter from them certifying your annual income. I do that every year with no problem.

Send me a PM if you want more information.

Utley, thanks for the info! My problem is that I don't work and have no income or pension. I have real estate in several countries and a large stock portfolio. Would they consider that?

[parallaxtech]

Regarding the suggestion that you should have the 800K in a "straight non-interest-bearing savings account" -- Lopburi3 pointed out at the beginning of this thread that every savings account in a local bank accrues interest.

So that is a bogus (and nonsensical) justification for refusing OP's extension application.

Another poster suggests that Samui IO are accepting bribes (e.g., 5,000 baht a pop). But the fact that the IO never gave you this option suggests that (lack of) a bribe was not the issue in your case.

Something is truly weird about OP's experience and this new Immo officer.

Hopefully, more Samui ex-pats will report on their interactions with this fellow, at least to determine if this is one person's grudge or a policy of the entire Samui Immo office.

I would like to join those other TV members who strongly oppose paying a bribe to an Immo official to obtain approval of the retirement extension.

Tao now: You are now an official member of the DBS (Dead Bribe Society) and I welcome any other gentlemen who would like to join. Just send me 5,000K and I will keep it in a non-interest-bearing account.

As I wrote previously, I knew it was bogus. This was why I asked to see the next boss and the next boss, but the woman who first denied me ran in each time to tell the new boss to refuse it (Before you ask, my Thai is 75% fluent.) It just seems to be the flavor of the month, so I wanted to warn everybody in case they sprung it on them.

I didn't want to open another can of worms or serpents in this case, but here goes. I didn't mention that for the past five years they have looked at my same interest-bearing accounts and approved it without question. However, each time Mr. N__t asked for a bribe. The first time he did it by stating that the visa fee had gone up to 6,000B. I just smiled and handed him 1900B. The next year he said he needed an extra 5,000B because he needed to see if I had a record with Interpol. The next year he said they had me under surveillance for working without a permit and I needed to pay an extra 5,000. I was looking forward to seeing what the next excuse was, but he and the rest of them are gone, most likely scalping in another region. The new guy just declines your extension and most likely expects you to offer whatever or get a visa bandito to offer the money. Everyone needs to realize that bribing a government official is illegal everywhere. He might give you a visa, but he might also not enter it on the computer and, guess what, you are then facing a prison term. You have no invoice from him, so have no proof. In fact he might arrest you on the spot. Read Samui Express this month where people paid the travel agency to get their visas and are now facing four years in prison. Things are not getting better here, so everyone be careful.

Mr. Mario, an honorary member of DBS, has given me now enough info to pursue this. I will start tomorrow at the Thai Embassy in KL to get the names of the senior IMM officers in Bangkok. I will be advising everyone on my progress.

Just so you know me, I was the runt in school who always faced the bully and walked away with a black eye and a couple of loose teeth, but you know what, he also limped away and never bothered me again. Throughout my career I have faced injustice in places like Colombia, El Salvador, and Iraq. Professionals have gone after me, so I'm not too concerned about some monkeys. We will never stop corruption here, as it is endemic, but that doesn't mean we should participate in it. We all need to stick to our principles learned from our parents and in school. From the messages I've read there are some fine people on TV and I thank you again!

[Rooo]

As a U.S. citizen you have a very easy solution available to you. Instead of using your bank accounts to verify your financial ability to live in Thailand, go the the U.S. Embassy in Bangkok and obtain a letter from them certifying your annual income. I do that every year with no problem.

Send me a PM if you want more information.

Utley, thanks for the info! My problem is that I don't work and have no income or pension. I have real estate in several countries and a large stock portfolio. Would they consider that?

No need to do that. The OP has the funds. The wording translation of the bank book ,is the problem. He has been told how to overcome it.No need for lies or false declarations.

[parallaxtech]

My advice at the OP, when you are in Malaysia have a good look around. You may like that country. Easier to stay there and you can even own your house legally under the second home law ( or called similar). No hassle from Immigration, they are actually smiling at the border (at least to me). Just a thought...

Thanks, CH, but Americans and muslims aren't really a good mix these days. I'm here now and it looks nice. The people are all kind. I left a beachfront home in the Cayman Islands in 2004 because several American friends of mine were killed there, and I've invested a considerable amount of money on a house and land here. There's no utopia. I love many things about Samui, but this incident has absolutely boiled my blood. If they ever try to arrest me under false charges or someone takes a shot at me, I will definitely consider a move.

Edited May 9, 2010 by parallaxtech