Can She Sell The House I Have A 30 Year Lease On ?

[cangetman]

Hello everyone some advice would be appreciated

I was with a Thai girl for 5 years , we were not married and no Kids we are no longer together , I did a stupid thing i bought a house and land and put them both under her name , the only security that I have is that I then made a lease between her and me for 30 years cost me 250000 BAHT , the lease is solid it was all done at the land office department , the lease is in thai and english and it is water tight i beleive for 30 years. I have the Chanot and the lease agreements etc all originals in my possesion both thai and English .

The question i have is really simple

is there any way she could sell the house without my permission in the next 30 years

bear in mind the lease is under my name ? Or will she have to wait until she is old and wrinkly before she has any claim on it at all the house that is as she will automatically get the land which i dont care about ?

a word of advice do not ever ever purchase a villa or land in thailand and do a stupid thing like me and place it under your girlfriends name stick to condiminiums

[gotlost]

Simple answer NO.

[sarahsbloke]

She can live in the house while you go through all sorts of hoops to get her out.

(about 5 years worth of legal stuff while she lives there)

[kxfield]

If it is of any comfort to you. I did the same as you regards wife,s name and lease about 4 years ago. They only difference is we are still together and have moved into a different house. Hence we are currently selling our old house. When the agent started to go through our papers she spotted the lease and we were told before she could possibly sell the old house on our behalf, for which we currently have a buyer, we would have to cancel the lease arrangement. So yesterday had to go down to the Land Registry and cancel the lease so the sale can continue.

[sarahsbloke]

kxfield said

So yesterday had to go down to the Land Registry and cancel the lease so the sale can continue.

What happens if your wife decides to not sell the house, or keep all the money from the house sale?

You no longer have a lease ............

Edited May 11, 2010 by sarahsbloke

[Crossy]

Simple answer NO.

Actually I think you'll find she CAN.

However the new owner must honour the lease so she'll have problems getting a buyer.

[Wildliferescue]

No she can't. She might want access to the house to check her land at some times, but she cannot sell the land, loan money on it or live in it without your written approval. Just make sure that you have a will to your family or a friend here in case you pass away too early.

Under Thai law you could split up (even if you did not ever get married) and court would grant you both half of everything in most cases. She couldn't get it all.

[chiangmaibruce]

OK, well i'm with Crossy on this. I think you will find she CAN sell the house, borrow money on the house, etc etc. She is the owner and the OP is a tenant - that's it. The sole exception MIGHT be if the OP had a special clause put in the lease that it could not be sold (most unlikely if even possible). But, yes, the new owner must honour the lease so the OP can't legally be turfed out

[kxfield]

What happens if your wife decides to not sell the house, or keep all the money from the house sale?

You no longer have a lease ............

I already have another house - another lease and my wife isnt a crafty scheming bitch, thankfully. (Third time married so should know, and I have seen enough people in Thailand over the las ten years, come a cropper with their brains dangling between their legs)

I dont particularly want to go into personal details of my relationship '- just to say I am 100% sure she would not do that as it would not be in her own short or long term interest.

[KhunFalang]

From previous reading on this very subject (various law firms in Thailand have this information on their web sites), she CAN sell the land and house, and the new owner will have to honour the lease. Problem is of course... there is no honour in Thailand... and they are cruel and viloent people.

The advice to buy a condo instead of a home is a very good one!! In fact, it is a perfect "test". If you tell your girl you want to buy a condo, and she insists on you buying a home... well, you will know what will be waiting for you in the future.

Obviously, if you want to live in the countryside, there are no condos there. Just make sure that you invest in land and a house, no more money than you are willing to lose...

[lannarebirth]

Simple answer NO.

Actually I think you'll find she CAN.

However the new owner must honour the lease so she'll have problems getting a buyer.

That is correct. She can sell the house "subject to" the underlying lease encumbrence. If it is recorded on the chanote that is full disclosure to a would be purchaser who is obligated to uphold the "lessor" provisions of the lease for whatever the legal term of the lease is.

[sarahsbloke]

No she can't. She might want access to the house to check her land at some times, but she cannot sell the land, loan money on it or live in it without your written approval. Just make sure that you have a will to your family or a friend here in case you pass away too early.

There are several threads where a leaseholder has a former gf living in the home and refusing to leave.

The Thai courts and police don't seem all that bothered about enforcing civil law ... so apparently she can live in it without permission.

Looks to me like a Thai lease has only a slightly greater value than the paper it is written on.

I wouldn't get one. (in the end if there is a problem, she can just have you killed)

Edited May 11, 2010 by sarahsbloke

[CORVETTELOVER]

agree with sarahsbloke life is cheap in thailand and the ops aint, falung extra not worth dying over.

[cangetman]

No she can't. She might want access to the house to check her land at some times, but she cannot sell the land, loan money on it or live in it without your written approval. Just make sure that you have a will to your family or a friend here in case you pass away too early.

Under Thai law you could split up (even if you did not ever get married) and court would grant you both half of everything in most cases. She couldn't get it all.

Edited May 11, 2010 by cangetman

[thrilled]

I think the moral or the story is don't buy A house in thailand,ya have to put it in A thai's name.The lease sounds like A joke.Myself I think renting is the only way for A farang in thailand to go.

[Khun Jean]

Of course she can sell. Finding a buyer will be difficult, but even then the lease is solid. Lucky you made it with your girlfriend and not with your wife. The difference is huge.

All that talk about life is cheap is pure nonsense. Thais are not murdering each other over something like this. She did not pay for it, she will have it clear of a lease in 30 years, a nice retirement for her. And she is free to find someone else.

I read nothing in the OP about the girlfriend not wanting to leave, as was stated that they are not together anymore. If i understood wrong and she is one of the sticky kind then changing the locks and a few suitcases will solve that problem.

If you not feel comfortable living in the house because it is for example to close to people that bother you , you can consider selling the remainder of your lease.

[basjke]

I bought land some years ago and put it in the name of a long time friend,not my girlfriend,which I trust.

Anyway to seal the contract we went to a lawyer.He told me there are 2 different ways.You can take a 30 year lease and register it at the landoffice or you can lend money to the other party with the titledeed as colateral and have that registered at the landoffice and keep the titledeed in your possession.You can not have both on the same piece of land.

He advised me straight away.If you prefer the way of the 30 year lease and things turn sour you will have a reason to die.

The loan agreement is much safer because even in the case that you die it will the loan and the land title rights will go to your heirs.

[cangetman]

Of course she can sell. Finding a buyer will be difficult, but even then the lease is solid. Lucky you made it with your girlfriend and not with your wife. The difference is huge.

All that talk about life is cheap is pure nonsense. Thais are not murdering each other over something like this. She did not pay for it, she will have it clear of a lease in 30 years, a nice retirement for her. And she is free to find someone else.

I read nothing in the OP about the girlfriend not wanting to leave, as was stated that they are not together anymore. If i understood wrong and she is one of the sticky kind then changing the locks and a few suitcases will solve that problem.

If you not feel comfortable living in the house because it is for example to close to people that bother you , you can consider selling the remainder of your lease.

We are no longer together , she is in the House in Phuket and I am in the UK , she is refusing to leave the property basically being a complete bitch i have offered her 2 million as the property is worth 9.5 million she is still refusing , a very very greedy thai.

Edited May 12, 2010 by cangetman

[sarahsbloke]

So essentially as I originally suggested.

She will refuse to leave the house, that's what always happens.

You will pay a fortune in legal fees, that's what always happens.

She will stay put. Nobody will enforce any court decisions against her, that's what always happens.

Offer more than 50 percent ....... she will probs settle for 5 million (that's what always happens)

Edited May 12, 2010 by sarahsbloke

[LivinLOS]

No she can't. She might want access to the house to check her land at some times, but she cannot sell the land, loan money on it or live in it without your written approval. Just make sure that you have a will to your family or a friend here in case you pass away too early.

Under Thai law you could split up (even if you did not ever get married) and court would grant you both half of everything in most cases. She couldn't get it all.

Completely wrong.. 180 degree wrong..

Its HER land and house.. of course she can sell it..

Edited May 12, 2010 by LivinLOS

[LivinLOS]

Ohh and how much annually monthly are you paying for your lease ??

Cos if your not (and are calling it a ballon payment) I hear they are easier to nullify.. Tho I doubt a Thai woman in Phuket will be pursuing any legal avenues.

[cangetman]

No she can't. She might want access to the house to check her land at some times, but she cannot sell the land, loan money on it or live in it without your written approval. Just make sure that you have a will to your family or a friend here in case you pass away too early.

Under Thai law you could split up (even if you did not ever get married) and court would grant you both half of everything in most cases. She couldn't get it all.

Completely wrong.. 180 degree wrong..

Its HER land and house.. of course she can sell it..

How can she possibly sell the house if the lease is under my name for 30 years, a 30 year lease is legal and the contract clearly states she cant even have a sniff for 30 years see extract from lease agreement below

Hello Khun Supasak hope you are well can you please tell me if you have read the lease document correctly I have attached the lease again for you , everything on the lease is 100% on my side she has signed the lease as well as me so why is it so difficult to get her out of the house ?can you please read this document again there are 15 pages attached . how is it possible to use the argument that because I have been supporting her she has a right to stay in the house we were not married? , the lease agreement clearly states that she has no rights whatsoever for 30 years this lease was done at the land office with land officials and lawyers present and she signed the lease agreement so she has agreed to the terms and conditions as well as me. Sorry if I sound frustrated but the can you do some more research I have paid you 100000 baht so far

.

If the lease was not legal then I can understand this but it is 100% legal.

Please click on this link below it is THAI CIVIL LAW and it clearly states how the lease structure works .

http://www.samuiforsale.com/leasehold.html

Below are some of the extracts from the lease please read carefully before you reply to this email ?

4. NO SALE OR MORTGAGE OF PROPERTY; NO ASSIGNMENT OF LEASE

4.1 The Lessor shall not sell, convey, mortgage, encumber or otherwise transfer the Property or assign the Lease or its rights, duties or obligations there under at any time to any third party unless the Lessor obtains the prior written consent of the Lessee.

4.2 In the event the Lessor breaches the obligation set forth in Clause 6.1, the Lessee may either (1) terminate the remainder of the Lease Term; or (2) terminate both the Renewal Term and the Additional Term, at the Lessee’s sole and absolute discretion. In the event that the Lessee determines to terminate the remainder of the Lease Term due to the Lessor’s breach of this Clause 8, the Lessor shall pay damages to the Lessee equivalent to (I) the market value of the Lease during the remainder (if any) of the Initial Term; (2) the market value of the Lease during the Renewal Term; (3) the market value of the Lease during the Additional Term; (4) the market value of the Villa; and (5) a forfeited penalty equal to ten percent (10%) of the Rent. In the event that the Lessee terminates the Renewal Term and the Additional Term due to the Lessor’s breach of this Clause 8, the Lessor shall pay damages to the Lessee equivalent to (1) the market value of the Lease during the Renewal Term; (2) the market value of the Lease during the Additional Term; (3) the market value of the Villa; and (4) a forfeited penalty equal to ten percent (10%) of the Rent.

6. RIGHT TO SUBLET AND ASSIGN

6.1 The Lessee shall be entitled (without the consent of the Lessor) to let out the Property or any part thereof in any way whether by way of subletting, lending, sharing or other means to any person (natural orjuristic) or allow any person to use the Property or any part thereof.

6.2 The Lessee shall be entitled to transfer or assign this Agreement or pass the beneficial interest in, or create a charge over and register contracts and other interests and encumbrances against the Lease to any third party.

9. LESSEE’S RIGHTS

9.1 The Lessor agrees that the Lessee is entitled to build any buildings or constructions on the Land at his own expenses. The Lessee may modify, improve, or alter the Land in any way they desires and the Lessor hereby give consent to do so. The Lessor shall cooperate fully with the Lessee if and when any alterations or changes to the Land require appropriate government permits. The Lessor admit that the ownership of the building, structures, additions, alterations, modification or improvements constructed or made on the Land shall be of the Lessee. The Lessee shall have the right to sell, transfer, lease out, move, remove or demolish the said building, structures, additions, alterations, modification or improvement as the Lessee shall deem appropriate. The Lessee is under no obligation to maintain or restore the Land and Access to its original state upon the end of this Agreement or the end of any renewal hereof.

9.2 The Lessee is entitled to purchase the Villa from the Lessor any time, the Lessee is entitled to have any individual or juristic person to purchase the Land from the Lessor any time and, if the law is changed, the Lessee is entitled to purchase Ihe Land from the Lessor any time. Such individual orjuristic person or the Lessee shall be the sole owner of the Land. The purchase price of the Property shall be equivalent to the pro-rata rent during the remainder of the lease term. Both parties agree that the purchase price and the remaining but already paid amount of rental payments can be off-set. The Lessee shall be solely responsible for transfer fees, withholding tax, specific business tax, stamp duties and other expenses incurred from the transfer registration of the Property.

9.3 In case where the Lessee desires to apply for a loan or credit facility from bank or financial institution for whatsoever purpose and shall use the leasehold right hereunder as security for the said loan or credit facility, the Lessor agree to give consent therefore whereby it shall be deemed that this Agreement is a written consent of the Lessor therefore. The Lessor shall sign all documents for the Lessee to enable the Lessee to use the leasehold right hereunder for placing as security with the bank or financial institution. However, the conditions of such using the leasehold right as security shall not bind or affect the Lessor’ rights and duties or any Lessor’ properties. The Lessee shall have to give a written notice to the Lessor in advance of not less than thirty (3)) days prior to the date of placing such leasehold right as security.

If the registration of mortgage of the Property under this Clause is not prohibited by laws, upon the Lessee’ request, the Lessor agree to register to niortgaee the Property to the Lessee as security for the performance of the Lessor under this Agreement within thirty (30) days from the date of receiving the written notice from the Lessee. All fees, stamp duties, taxes (if any) and expenses incurred in connection therewith shall be borne by the Lessee. However, the conditions of such mortgage registration shalt not bind or affect the Lessor’ rights and duties or any Lessor’ properties.

10. LESSOR’S COVENANTS

10.1 The Lessor shall comply with all terms and conditions of this Agreement.

10.2 The Lessor shall not interrupt or disturb the Lessee’s peaceful enjoyment of the Project, the Property, and the Villa.

10.3 The Lessor shall affect the registration of the Lease of the Property in accordance with

the terms and conditions of this Agreement with the relevant land office and/or any other competent authority.

10.4 The Lessor shall not sell, transfer, mortgage or place any encumbrance on the title deed to the Land or on the Property during the Lease Term without the written consent of the Lessee.

10.5 The Lessor shall provide to the Lessee (including thc Lessee’s heirs, assignees, transferees, designees, and sub-tenants) free and unrestricted access to the Property during the Lease Term. In other words, The Lessee shall have the unrestricted right to have non-paying guests, paying guests, tenants, sub-lessees, invitees or any third party contractors or other third parties staying at the Villa on the Property throughout the Lease Term or any part thereof.

10.6 The Lessor shall take all necessary and appropriate measures to ensure that the Lessee’s possessory rights to the Property under this Agreement are valid and uninterrupted during the Initial Term, the Renewal Term and the Additional Term.

10.7 The Lessor warrants and affirms that the Lessee and the Lessee’ dependents shall have the right to unconditional and unobstructed access to and from the public roads to the Land throughout the Lease Term hereof

11. BREACH OF REPRESENTATIONS AN]) WARRANTIES

11.1 If the Lessor fails for any reason whatsoever to honor the Lessee’s rights under the Lease during the Initial Term, the Lessor shall pay damages to the Lessee equivalent to (1) the market value of the Lease during the remainder of the Initial Term; (2) the market value of the Lease during the Renewal Term; (3) the market value of the Lease during the Additional Term; (4) the market value of the Villa; and (5) a forfeiled penalty equal to ten percent (10%) of the Rent.

11.2 If the Lessor fails for any reason whatsoever to honor the Lessee’s riKhts under the Lease during the Renewal Term or breaches the obligations of the Lesst under Clause 2.2 above, the Lessor shall pay damages to the Lessee equivalent to (I market value of the Lease during the Renewal Term or the remainder of the Rene a Term, as the case may be;/) the market value of the Lease during the Additional an; (3) the market value ofjfie Wt4; and (4) a forfeited penalty equal to ten percent (I °Ocfthe

Lessor’s Initials xrJC diTh2{ 7 Lessee’s Initials

11.3 If the Lessor fails for any reason whatsoever to honor the Lessee’s rights under the Lease during the Additional Term or breaches the obligations of the Lessor under Clause 2.3 above, the Lessor shall pay damages to the Lessee equivalent to (1) the market value of the Lease during the Additional Term or the remainder of the Additional Term, as the ease may be; (2) the market value of the Villa; and (3) a forfeited penalty equal to ten percent (10%) of the Rent.

12. TERMINATION AND DEFAULT

12.1 If the Lessor fails to comply with any clause of this agreement, the Lessee shall send the Lessor a notice in order to let the Lessor perform their obligation within fourteen (14) days from receipt of the notice. In case the Lessor stifl have not performed her obligation, the Lessor shall be deemed in breach of agreement. The Lessor agrees that the Lessee have the rights to legally compel the Lessor to either (i) comply with this agreement and pay the Lessee for other compensations (if any) plus interest at the rate of 7.5% per annum of such compensations as of the date that the Lessor is in breach of this agreement onwards or (ii) to refund any received money and to pay other compensations (if any) to the Lessee plus interest at the rate of 7.5% per annum of fir received money and such compensations as of the date that the Lessor is in breach of this agreement onwards. Additionally, the Lessee is entitled to terminate this agreement.

12.2 If the Lessee fails to comply with any clause of this agreement, the Lessor shall send the Lessee a notice in order to let the Lessee perform their obligation within fourteen (14) days from receipt of the notice. In case the Lessee is still negligeixt, the Lessee shall be deemed in breach of agreement. The Lessee agrees to forfeit half of money paid to by the Lessee to the Lessor while the Lessor agrees in refund the other half of the received money to the Lessee immediately. AdditinnaJly, the Lessor is entitled to terminate this agreement.

13. WAIVER

One party’s failure to take action against the other for nai-perforinaee of any term or condition of this Agreement shall not be construed as a general waiver or relinquishment of any such right, term or condition. Notwithstanding one patty’s ceisent to the other’s performance or omission of any acts contrary to those mentioned herein, such consent shall be deemed a consent granted for the particular easc and not for all or any others incurred thereafter. Should one party for whatever reason delay or not enforce any provision or exercise any of its rights herein stipulated, such delay shall not constitute any waiver of any other rights contained herein. Any delay hy one nty in relation to enforcing its rights where strict limitation periods are not stipuhLi by law shall be limited to a period of 12 months for all claims starting from the da e f occupation of the Villa by the Lessee.

[stgrhe]

I fully agree with Khun Jean and cangetman! There is nothing preventing her from selling the land as she is the owner. However, a new owner is obliged to honour the lease for the duration of the lease term.

Do not listen to the bar stool lawyers!

[LivinLOS]

Just having a lease does not preclude her selling the land.. Its simply pre paid rent, she can still sell the asset with a sitting tenant.

Your lease apparently has non sale clauses, however as its civil law its a question how enforceable they are. As you are discovering, there are laws, which we are held to, and there are laws which Thais are not.

While you should legally be able to have her removed from the house, your expecting Thai police, to go against a Thai person who has successfully tricked a farang top buy her a house and land, out of her winnings.. Not many Thais will assist you. Law or no law.

Also it would be fairly easy for her to think of something like 'borrowing' on the land and house, defaulting on the payments, and having the 'lender' foreclose on the property... Voila, the new 'owner' is not bound by any terms of the lease (in the civil right aspect), only the 'real right' of the length of the lease recorded on the land title at the land office.

[sarahsbloke]

she has signed the lease as well as me so why is it so difficult to get her out of the house ?

Thai rak Thai

No Thai will ever support a foreigner against a Thai.

The courts are Thai, the police are Thai and your solicitor is Thai.

While some may pretend to support your cause, in reality nobody actually does. You just spend more money (which everyone enjoys sharing) while everyone pretends to go through the legal motions.

If you were to sell your lease to a Thai, then things would be different (but a Thai would be unlikely to buy a lease).

Edited May 13, 2010 by sarahsbloke

[cangetman]

Just having a lease does not preclude her selling the land.. Its simply pre paid rent, she can still sell the asset with a sitting tenant.

Your lease apparently has non sale clauses, however as its civil law its a question how enforceable they are. As you are discovering, there are laws, which we are held to, and there are laws which Thais are not.

While you should legally be able to have her removed from the house, your expecting Thai police, to go against a Thai person who has successfully tricked a farang top buy her a house and land, out of her winnings.. Not many Thais will assist you. Law or no law.

Also it would be fairly easy for her to think of something like 'borrowing' on the land and house, defaulting on the payments, and having the 'lender' foreclose on the property... Voila, the new 'owner' is not bound by any terms of the lease (in the civil right aspect), only the 'real right' of the length of the lease recorded on the land title at the land office.

I understand that pretty much everyhting is heavily stacked against me , but surely if anyone tried to Purchase the property which i am the Lessee on they would get to the land office who would say sorry but there is a tennant for the next 30 years we cant let the sale go through , bare in mind i have the Original Chanot etc in my possesion?

[cangetman]

she has signed the lease as well as me so why is it so difficult to get her out of the house ?

Thai rak Thai

No Thai will ever support a foreigner against a Thai.

The courts are Thai, the police are Thai and your solicitor is Thai.

While some may pretend to support your cause, in reality nobody actually does. You just spend more money (which everyone enjoys sharing) while everyone pretends to go through the legal motions.

If you were to sell your lease to a Thai, then things would be different (but a Thai would be unlikely to buy a lease).

i would have to agree with you , looks like i am up the creek with out a paddle , I am sure anyone with half a brain who wanted to buy the property would quickly realise when they got to the land office that there is already a tenant who has a lease on the property ie me and they would decide it is more trouble than it is worth, also the lawyers dealing with the transaction would do the due diligance and quickly realise the property is a time bomb and would advise their client to keep well away. HE HOPES

[Monkeypants]

I understand that pretty much everyhting is heavily stacked against me , but surely if anyone tried to Purchase the property which i am the Lessee on they would get to the land office who would say sorry but there is a tennant for the next 30 years we cant let the sale go through , bare in mind i have the Original Chanot etc in my possesion?

The facts are that it is her house, and should she wish to sell it to me, I must honour the lease agreement with you, thats it, nothing stopping me buying it, afterall it's not yours you are only renting it.

The chanot is not yours, it can't be yours. You may have it, but it doesn't belong to you.

Sorry to say mate you have lost this one, I hope it doesn't happen to me , good luck

[blue eyes]

I am no lawyer but what I do know is that anyone that would like to buy the land will ask to see the origanal chanot.If you have it in the UK it will be very hard for her to sell the land without being able to produce it to the buyer.I would guess that there is a way for her to get a copy but still very hard to sell the land.In the end why do you want to stay there anyway?As many people will say....cut your losses and move on.I know it really su_ks but live and learn.Contact an attorney in Thailand to find out your options.Issan lawyers may help,check them out.

[stgrhe]

I am no lawyer but what I do know is that anyone that would like to buy the land will ask to see the origanal chanot.If you have it in the UK it will be very hard for her to sell the land without being able to produce it to the buyer.I would guess that there is a way for her to get a copy but still very hard to sell the land.In the end why do you want to stay there anyway?As many people will say....cut your losses and move on.I know it really su_ks but live and learn.Contact an attorney in Thailand to find out your options.Issan lawyers may help,check them out.

It is possible for an owner to get a new title document by claiming it has been lost. Hence, keeping in the UK only provides limited protection.