Clashes Continue, Turning Central Bangkok In Virtual Warzone

[maccaroni man]

Why don't we just chop up Thailand?

It may yet come to that.

well if it did i would bet that the majority of the 60m thais would not want to be part of the red zone.

[neverdie]

Russell,

You seem to be struggling with a grasp on the english language. In the PM, I simply referred to you as a D... H... (NEWSFLASH: Its not a sexually motivated thing) .

Anyway Rusty, you're constant braindead half truths and propaganda messages are very boring. Do you understand that? What other language would you like me to post it in? How does any man get this message through to you?

Not with sleazy PMs mate. And if your so sure that your PM wasn't sleazy, feel free to post it - title and all - for all to see

That would be a clear breach of the forum rules Russell, nice try but you will have to wake up MUCH EARLIER to get neverdie.

[Arkady]

I'm afraid that you don't understand the consequences. Compared to the govt expenditure in Isaan, very little tax is received. The tax base (in isaan) would have to be widened (read income tax) and/or govt expenditure savagely reduced. You also have the expense of setting up all the infrastructure of a govt. Most of the workers in Isaan are low paid because they a low value producers, and without tax help from the south, they will stay that way.

Meanwhile in the south, they buy their produce from the southern provinces, boosting their incomes (and taxes) and reducing the current tensions.

To summarise, the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. Isaan workers would still be allowed down south, but without the protections they now get as thai citizens - they become the "new" burmese, cambodians or laos.

In fact the North, much of the Northeast and some of Laos were a separate kingdom that was only fully amalgamated into Siam in about 1912, although it had lost its independence long before that. I think OzMick is right in saying the North and Northeast are net recipients of tax revenue. There is no attempt by central government to tax the incomes of farmers, even better off ones with large incomes. Everything is done in cash and is untraceable. Receipts from VAT and other taxes such as land tranfser tax, import duty, corporate income tax are also relatively very low per capita, compared to Bangkok, Central and all resort areas (they only really have Chiang Mai in this category). The new country (shall we call it Lanna?) would have extremely impoverished public finances and would have difficulty paying for basic services such as education and healthcare. Lannanese workers would be in demand in Siam because they can speak Siamese but would need work permits, would not enjoy minimum wage protection and would have to compete with workers from other countries (Burma, Cambodia etc for unskilled jobs and countries like India and the Philippines for skilled office workers). Politically things would be calmer as the two countries could more easily agree on what type of governments they wanted but Lannanese city dwellers of Chinese origin mgiht try to migrate to Siam en masse, further impoverishing the country. Siam also would have to agree to some sort of autonomy for the Deep South, as it would no longer have enough troops to send there. Militarily things would be tricky as Lanna would potentially have a large army with a small budget and Siam would potentially have a small army with a high budget. If Siam didn't focus on building up a modern, efficent army like Singapore, it would always face the threat of invasion by Lannanese hoards.

[DagonKhan]

Din Daeng gone red again.

Udon Thani Town Hall under seige.

Convoys of Reds blocked from entering Bangkok about to get feisty!

It would actually be nice to hear a little more about what is happening elsewhere, I can't seem to find any news reports, they all concentrate on Bangkok.

[hughben]

In the peaceful coup of 2006, the army rolled onto the streets with an impressive display of tanks and armoured personnel carriers.

I don't really understand why they simply don't bring this lot out now when it is needed. The troops would be properly protected, would not need to shoot wildly in self-defence at risk of hurting non-combatants, and they could simply roll over the barricades and secure the red areas with little bloodshed.

Surely the worry about 'but what will everyone think if we use tanks?' is long past. There is violent disorder in the heart of a capital city, and half-trained half-hearted concripts running around with shotguns and M16s is not going to do anything except lead to further clashes and further deaths. By the look of Richard Barrow's 'bangkok dangerous map', the danger is spreading rather than being contained or reduced.

Am I the only one who thinks like this?

No.

I posted some questions earlier:

Looking at the Bangkok Dangerous google map the 'reds' have expanded.

Is this due to reinforcements or them escaping the encircled zone through the weak points?

One of the leaders said supplies are running low and for new supplies to be delivered through the small sois.

What's the point of blocking an area if you don't close off every entrance?

What's the saying 'you're only as strong as your weakest point'?

I do wonder though why the army hasn't deployed tanks. Is it because they think this isn't winnable?

They are saying they aren't going in to attack but to encamp the protesters.

[noahvail]

Din Daeng gone red again.

Udon Thani Town Hall under seige.

Convoys of Reds blocked from entering Bangkok about to get feisty!

Sure they got this contained at Rajprasong?

As much as I hate to do this, as it might be considered feeding the troll, would you kindly provide links for the first three lines? Because I have not seen any evidence of any of these on the media.

[rogerx007]

and few minutes later the buffalo runs over u .. turning u into a piece of meat covered in blood which wud be darker shade of tht carrot.....

thts why the original "carrot and stick" had a rabbit in place of buffalo....

donky not rabbit

do they even eat carrot...

tes

the idea of "carrot and the stick" is from old days when your transport is a donkey, stuborn creatures they are, so you use a stick with a carrot dangling from the end and dangle in front donkey face, he walk forward to get the carrot, if he still dont go you give the donkey a smack on the arse with the stick instead.

hense the annalogy for 2 way to get the desired result; why would anyone want to smack a rabbit?

apologies for the mistake...

I know its use in business sense though...

will it float if I say we have big rabbits in our part of the world...

[OzMick]

This is a photo of a ten year old boy shot last night, a sober reminder to all those praying for a crackdown what it eventually leads to.

http://tweetphoto.com/22448632

This is a article on the shooting unfortunately in Thai

http://www.dailynews.co.th/newstartpage/in...contentId=65910

It's also a sober reminder to the drunk drivers speeding towards army checkpoints with kids in the car.

Get the women and children out of there!

get the WOMEN, CHILDREN, OLD and SICK out of the red fighting zone !

It's the MENTALLY ILL that want to stay. And the old guy will be OK, no bullet could get past that chest full of amulets

[mccw]

In the peaceful coup of 2006, the army rolled onto the streets with an impressive display of tanks and armoured personnel carriers.

I don't really understand why they simply don't bring this lot out now when it is needed. The troops would be properly protected, would not need to shoot wildly in self-defence at risk of hurting non-combatants, and they could simply roll over the barricades and secure the red areas with little bloodshed.

Surely the worry about 'but what will everyone think if we use tanks?' is long past. There is violent disorder in the heart of a capital city, and half-trained half-hearted concripts running around with shotguns and M16s is not going to do anything except lead to further clashes and further deaths. By the look of Richard Barrow's 'bangkok dangerous map', the danger is spreading rather than being contained or reduced.

Am I the only one who thinks like this?

i agree, bring the tanks in. who cares what the rest of the world thinks. so long as they can still do business here they'll soon forget about it.

[pornsasi]

One hand holds the knife to your backribs, while the other waves politly

and the mouth talks nice for the neighbors. But the implied threat is still the knife.

Just part of Thalksin's;

they are gone bad it's not me, I am the savior, game plan.

He only started this negotiation tack recently, before it was 'go to the end'.

He needs to change HIS perception by the world before he gets dragged down

with the red nutters, that HE created, financed, and lead through paid puppets.

Foreign papers are noted for only having a partial understanding of the situation,

and any that take Thaksin's PR pontifications as fact, are suspect on basic principles.

Now thats funny ... Reuters , AFP and other news agencies are suspect ?

They are new agencies , they dont invent anything , they just report .

Of course the facts may not be always in agreement with your views

[viking75]

Din Daeng gone red again.

Udon Thani Town Hall under seige.

Convoys of Reds blocked from entering Bangkok about to get feisty!

Sure they got this contained at Rajprasong?

As much as I hate to do this, as it might be considered feeding the troll, would you kindly provide links for the first three lines? Because I have not seen any evidence of any of these on the media.

Not my fault my friend. some of them even appeared on here in the closed thread! some on a more reputable BANGKOK based english newspapers front page as well.

is ignorance bliss? Or do you get your wife to only let you see what will be palatable to you?

Edited May 15, 2010 by viking75

[silk]

Thaksin is as washed up as Richard Nixon.

The man should learn to exit gracefully.

He is neither needed nor wanted. The cult of Thaksin is dead.

Wonder what the law firm he hired can councel on the situation in Thailand. Anybody heared anything?

http://blog.taragana.com/pr/former-prime-m...m-peroff-17061/

From above link:

" LONDON, May 3, 2010 - Today Amsterdam & Peroff announce that they have been appointed counsel

to the former Prime Minister of Thailand Thaksin Shinawatra, to assist in the

current contentious struggle for the restoration of democracy and rule of law

in the Southeast Asian nation"

[mommysboy]

In the peaceful coup of 2006, the army rolled onto the streets with an impressive display of tanks and armoured personnel carriers.

I don't really understand why they simply don't bring this lot out now when it is needed. The troops would be properly protected, would not need to shoot wildly in self-defence at risk of hurting non-combatants, and they could simply roll over the barricades and secure the red areas with little bloodshed.

Surely the worry about 'but what will everyone think if we use tanks?' is long past. There is violent disorder in the heart of a capital city, and half-trained half-hearted concripts running around with shotguns and M16s is not going to do anything except lead to further clashes and further deaths. By the look of Richard Barrow's 'bangkok dangerous map', the danger is spreading rather than being contained or reduced.

Am I the only one who thinks like this?

No, I think quite a few people are having the same thoughts.

You are left to conclude that some powerful people must be quite content with the present situation, I don't know who though.

[humfurry]

Din Daeng gone red again.

Udon Thani Town Hall under seige.

Convoys of Reds blocked from entering Bangkok about to get feisty!

Sure they got this contained at Rajprasong?

Ok , the governement will probably manage to disperse the Rajprasong gathering .

That remains to be see and few more deaths probably .

And then the reds will reappear somewhere else .

Then what ???

Wasn't it just a year ago that the Reds put gas bombs on a propane transporter in Din Daeng Flats? Remember too that the residents didn't like it and they called Batman and he dispersed the Red gremlins?

Sheesh.... You know nothing of Thailand!

[lannarebirth]

jc why do you bother answering those reds ?

they are obviously brain amputees and trying to intimidate anyone here is actually funny. If the reds should win, which I very much daubed, who would want to live in this shit-hole this country would become anyway ?

Within a very short time, those posters here would be planting rice and wear straw huts. Thailand would be a small third world country if it had not been for the west to come here for p..... during the Vietnam war and from than on .... have you ever heard of a Thai Nobel price winner ? or any product invented by a Thai ? have you ever seen a Thai car ? you can tell when a bridge was build by a Thai because you have to slow down to a crawl ...... most infrastructure here has been build by western companies because the Thais are so able ????

Only the Aryan race??? We come back to the Ultra Right thesis. Thais people are normal human being, they deserve a better education and they need that their Elite (whatever it is -Yellow, Pink or Red) does its job by managing FAIRLY the whole Country not only Bangkok privilegied areas.

Rural Thai People are human being with the same abilities than westerner people; there is no superiority of race, only an historical lag in education partly due to a mismanagement by Elite during years.

Be careful your way of thinking is gearing to fascism.

The historical lag is about 1000 years. The Thai elites haven't mismanaged anything. The Thai elites are petrified. They are dinasaurs, tyannosaurus rex. They are morticians who preserve a decripit, dead culture. Where's their Nelson Mandella of the moment? Their Suu Kyi? Their Vaclav Havel? Gandhi? Etc etc etc? There isn't any tranformative factor in Thailand, only the SOS of an ancient mumified civilization. The choice is Thaksin or Abhisit. Pathetic.

There you have it.

[Mobi]

Ten killed in Thailand as police join Red Shirt protest

Apologies if this has already been posted.

According to the Daily Telegraph, police have joined the reds and have been fighting the army. They also emphasis that many soldiers are also sympathetic to the reds and have behaved as such.

It all sounds very ominous.

Full story:

here

[Throatwobbler]

You should choose red to write your posts - do you really think this mob and especially their leaders show any qualifications to lead this country ???? you are probably hoping for Thaksin's return and lots of rewards for anyone who supported him - basically you are a traitor to Thailand

You are really limited and stubborn: I am not a Thaksin supporter... Difficult for you to understand as soon as we are not in line with your thoughts: too much complex??? It is you by your inability to dialog who is bringing Thailand to the verge of a Civil war and are in fact "Traitor to Thailand".

So are you now saying that the reds were open to dialogue. This has to be the funniest post I have ever read.

Typical red changes their position all the time.

you are just a partisan twisting my post.

I want Peace as a lot of people on this forum (Most of them silent). I do not think the blood bath we are assisting to is the solution.

We do not know the exact contents of the negociation, however we guess it has failed about the question of amnesty, and double standards: if it is true, it does not worth dozens of more deads and hundredth of more injuried.....

I am for PEACE. i belong to the moderate group in the middle opposed to the Partisans of any side who are filling this forum with hatred....

I am for peace too, but at no point have I seen the reds open for dialogue, and you claim that it's the governments inability to do dialogue that is the cause of this problem. When i see the reds beeing open to dialogue and the government refusing then I'll say it's the governments fault. At the moment though I can only see one side to blame.

[robint]

whats the most number of dumbass pages poseted on any topic, we have 66 here now?

[silk]

Ten killed in Thailand as police join Red Shirt protest

Apologies if this has already been posted.

According to the Daily Telegraph, police have joined the reds and have been fighting the army. They also emphasis that many soldiers are also sympathetic to the reds and have behaved as such.

It all sounds very ominous.

Full story:

here

Why would thai police change to the red camp? Any suggestions?

[mccw]

do they even eat carrot...

tes

the idea of "carrot and the stick" is from old days when your transport is a donkey, stuborn creatures they are, so you use a stick with a carrot dangling from the end and dangle in front donkey face, he walk forward to get the carrot, if he still dont go you give the donkey a smack on the arse with the stick instead.

hense the annalogy for 2 way to get the desired result; why would anyone want to smack a rabbit?

apologies for the mistake...

I know its use in business sense though...

will it float if I say we have big rabbits in our part of the world...

not unless there big enough to saddle up and ride around

[agord]

Jerry --- you are Red. You have always excused the red threats of violence as "negotiations". You have failed to speak out against the red use of violence and instead have excused it as being needed for change and then added historical references to the French revolution AND to violent mobs using force as part of negotiations in France and other parts of Europe. It is when the reds get HURT that you speak about peace.

The reds had a great deal offered to them. They wanted elections. They wanted investigations into April 10th, they wanted and wanted. They were offered what they wanted then added more and would not go home. They called for violence and then vowed to fight to the death. You called it "negotiations". Now that they have the violence THEY called for from the red stage .......

Your claim to non-partisanship is not true --- one has only to read your posts. You are Red.

If asking for PEACE and no deaths is beeing red then I am red too and so is

most of the rest of the world , including a vast majority of thais .

Go on Jerry ....

sweet - way to align yourselves with a group using elderly woman and children as human shields. Hey shouldn't the "leaders" of your side be turning themselves in today?

[LivinLOS]

Ten killed in Thailand as police join Red Shirt protest

Apologies if this has already been posted.

According to the Daily Telegraph, police have joined the reds and have been fighting the army. They also emphasis that many soldiers are also sympathetic to the reds and have behaved as such.

It all sounds very ominous.

Full story:

here

Why would thai police change to the red camp? Any suggestions?

Tacky being an ex cop.. Many in the police seen as being pro Tacky..

[Bangyai]

I have a different opinion of Abhisit. I admire him for the restraint he has shown. He has an almost impossible job. I wouldn't like to have to do it.

Anyone calling for his replacement is an imbecile. He is one of the few decent PMs that Thailand has ever had.

If he goes, he will be replaced with a strongman - and probably not a very bright one - and it will be civil war for sure.

Nonetheless, Abhisit has had to change with the times : Here are some quotes of his made during the PAD street protests and govournment crackdown :

1) ‘Even if [the government] deals with [the protesters] once and for all, it will never be able to destroy the concept of resistance.’

‘Today, I have to say what displeases the ears of members of my party and other MPs, who always dislike the idea of a House dissolution. But a House dissolution is part of the show of spirit. If the PM does not want to take responsibility alone, the whole Parliament will take the pain together’.

On 7 Oct 2008, then Prime Minister Somchai Wongsawat ordered a crackdown on the PAD protests in front of Parliament House, resulting in two deaths and over 400 injuries. Abhisit held a press conference after a meeting of his party

2)‘For all that has happened, the PM cannot deny his responsibility, either by negligence or intention.

‘I have never thought that we would have a state which has the people killed and seriously injured, and then accuses the people of the crimes. This is unacceptable.

‘I have heard those in the government always asking people whether they are Thai or not. Considering what you are doing now, it is not the question of being Thai or not, but whether you are human at all.

‘Today, [the government] has lost legitimacy. We are demanding that the PM take responsibility. [The PM] can resign, or if he is afraid that by his resignation, the Democrat Party will take power, he can dissolve the House. He cannot just do nothing, because if he does nothing, it would be tantamount to damaging the country and the political system.

‘For what we have said today, the government must not make the accusation that it is because we agree with all points of the PAD. Even if the PAD has done wrong, the government has no right to hurt the people.’

When reporters asked why Somchai still stayed on despite such a crisis, Abhisit said, ‘I have no idea. I have never seen a person like this. If he were a normal human of the kind that I know, it would not have been like this.’

Not so easy when you're in the driving seat it seems.

[jackr]

Don't however miss that photo_journ has been caught lieing before, lies about his awards and was in the news regards to crime he committed in Malaysia and is a self-professed red shirt supporter...I would take his claim with grain of salt at times...

If that's the photojourn on here, I'd agree, the guy is a complete tool.

[Jerrytheyoung]

Jerry ---- your claims to be non-partisan are not true. You have excused the reds for everything. When the leaders call for violence from the red stage you call it "negotiation". When the Reds act violently you say "bad" and THEN you excuse them by saying that change has always been violent. You say violence is bad then compare the reds to Unionists in France having to be violent to get change. You compare them to the French Revolution and excuse the violence.

All it takes to see which side you fall in with is to look at your post history. You are RED.

you are a partisan who classifies people in 2 possibilities, unable to understand nuances.

For your information:

I support the Poor Population of Issan and their aspiration to better social environment: yes

I support the Roadmap: yes

I do not support Thaksin: yes

I am not involved with any Red Shirt leader and I am not supporting any of them: yes

I guess (but I am not an actor) that the negociation have failed on the question of Amnesty and double standards, and I regret Red Shirts have left the table and that there was no counter proposal of Abhisit: yes

I am against weaponry in free circulation and all militias from any side: yes

From day one I have explained it was a Police operation not an Army operation, Army should remain symbol of Unity: yes

I am French and as such my social inheritage has been built through social struggle, I am what I am and do not deny this inheritage: yes.

In the current circumstances, I wish that a Peaceful solution is the most reasonable because Unity of Thailand is at risk as well as the Thai Institutions (that I respect as a choice of Thai people): yes

I have a mitigated opinion, please take it into account, but maybe it is too difficult for you. Thanks

[LivinLOS]

I have a different opinion of Abhisit. I admire him for the restraint he has shown. He has an almost impossible job. I wouldn't like to have to do it.

Anyone calling for his replacement is an imbecile. He is one of the few decent PMs that Thailand has ever had.

If he goes, he will be replaced with a strongman - and probably not a very bright one - and it will be civil war for sure.

Nonetheless, Abhisit has had to change with the times : Here are some quotes of his made during the PAD street protests and govournment crackdown :

1) ‘Even if [the government] deals with [the protesters] once and for all, it will never be able to destroy the concept of resistance.’

‘Today, I have to say what displeases the ears of members of my party and other MPs, who always dislike the idea of a House dissolution. But a House dissolution is part of the show of spirit. If the PM does not want to take responsibility alone, the whole Parliament will take the pain together’.

On 7 Oct 2008, then Prime Minister Somchai Wongsawat ordered a crackdown on the PAD protests in front of Parliament House, resulting in two deaths and over 400 injuries. Abhisit held a press conference after a meeting of his party

2)‘For all that has happened, the PM cannot deny his responsibility, either by negligence or intention.

‘I have never thought that we would have a state which has the people killed and seriously injured, and then accuses the people of the crimes. This is unacceptable.

‘I have heard those in the government always asking people whether they are Thai or not. Considering what you are doing now, it is not the question of being Thai or not, but whether you are human at all.

‘Today, [the government] has lost legitimacy. We are demanding that the PM take responsibility. [The PM] can resign, or if he is afraid that by his resignation, the Democrat Party will take power, he can dissolve the House. He cannot just do nothing, because if he does nothing, it would be tantamount to damaging the country and the political system.

‘For what we have said today, the government must not make the accusation that it is because we agree with all points of the PAD. Even if the PAD has done wrong, the government has no right to hurt the people.’

When reporters asked why Somchai still stayed on despite such a crisis, Abhisit said, ‘I have no idea. I have never seen a person like this. If he were a normal human of the kind that I know, it would not have been like this.’

Not so easy when you're in the driving seat it seems.

Different situation but good way to use his own words against him..

[littleMo]

Daily Telegraph: The new arrivals and the latest killings lent the Red Shirt movement fresh impetus when it appeared to have been flagging after 62 days.

I can't help thinking that was the objective of some all along.

[OzMick]

whybother,

“The reds don't want reconciliation. They want to be in power. They only want one thing. That's why they don't want to negotiate.”

That may be your take, but things look very different to the Thais in the upcountry villages – which is surely what is more germane than farang opinion. If you doubt me, read the international press, rather than The Nation & BKK Post, which are propaganda outlets for the BKK ‘elite’.

We have no sure idea of what Abhisit wants, or how genuine are his conciliatory offers. Relevantly, the Reds apparently do not trust him. I’m sure he would be very happy if they all went quietly home. But from their viewpoint, what would they have gained, apart from a politician’s promises?

As from the start, the peaceful solution is seemingly for dissolution of a government founded on an army coup & political horse-trading, then a new election. The alternative is more bloodshed & chaos, but that’s just my take.

The farangs who take a violently partisan approach in this crisis are crapping in their own nest, IMHO. This is a very unstable part of the world. Thailand is surrounded by some very dodgy regimes. Not the least problem is the Moslem violence in the south. Inernal strife weakens Thailand. If you want to continue enjoying its benefits, you might do well to tone down your calls for ‘crackdowns’ & ‘firm action’ – the old jackboots & bullets treatment for the ungrateful poor.

It is not impossible that a regime change will arrive. The new bosses might be the ‘Reds’ you so vigorously attack. You might find your position as a farang insecure. Thais are not idiots, & they have memories. You could find it very difficult to renew your visa &/or work permit in the future. Think on’t. OGT

I was going to congratulate you on a post without Hitler or nazis mentioned, but you blew it with "jackboots". Seen that specialist yet?

[seahorse]

The army is not being atacked by the reds at this moment, they are atttacked by Bangkok motor taxi gangs!

I have seen a photograph of redshirt "protesters" in which I recognised one of them as a Bangkok motosai taxi driver from the soi I used to live in. I would guess he is not the only one.

[humfurry]

Ten killed in Thailand as police join Red Shirt protest

Apologies if this has already been posted.

According to the Daily Telegraph, police have joined the reds and have been fighting the army. They also emphasis that many soldiers are also sympathetic to the reds and have behaved as such.

It all sounds very ominous.

Full story:

here

Yes, say it enough times and it will be true... Hearst was the master of trash journalism. This is my all time favourite quote from the Master.

“You furnish the pictures and I'll furnish the war.”

More on how newspapers really think can be found here! Learn from the Master!

http://thinkexist.com/quotes/william_randolph_hearst/