Offered A Job In Thailand Working For An Overseas Company

[JuniorExPat]

I hope this has not been done to death already but I can't find anything specific to this situation on the forum.

I live in Thailand on a Non-Imm O visa based on marriage and children. I have been offered a long-term job with an overseas company; the position requires someone in Thailand.

Before I ask questions at Immigration I am hoping that I can tap into the collective wisdom of ThaiVisa in order to be prepared.

If I accept the job I will be working in Thailand and I am well aware that any foreigner working in Thailand must have a work permit but I am also aware of Non-Imm B visas allowing foreigners to conduct business here and that those can be renewed annually but I don't know if, in this scenario, a work permit would be required alongside the Non-Imm B visa.

Remuneration would be made from the overseas and they are happy to pay to any bank, anywhere . . . not sure if that is relevant to my current query though. I would continue to live in Thailand and should therefore be paying tax and social insurance which I assume must mean that I need to have a work permit. The company has no intention of setting up a company in Thailand, they simply want to use my services and want to offer their services through me in the Kingdom.

So, I guess the essence of my question is:

If I work for a UK company in Thailand, keeping in mind that I already live here and hold a Non-Imm O visa do I need a work permit (I'm sure I do) and if so, how do I go about getting one when working for an overseas company and/or do I need to change to a Non-Imm B visa and if so, again, what about the work permit?

Please, no suggestions that would step outside of the law, I do not want to work "under the radar". The job will involve being out and about and interacting with Thai businesses and I rather like the idea of being able to stay here with my family rather than being kicked out for not following the rules!

Does anyone have any experience with this type of arrangement or any relevant advice to offer?

JxP

[MartinL]

As far as I'm aware and according to many posts I've read on this site and others, a Non-Imm. O Visa with extension of stay based on marriage/children is treated in the same way as a B Visa for WP purposes.

I certainly hope it's correct because I'm currently changing my retirement extension for one based on marriage for that very reason. Immigration people I've talked to have told me that a WP can be granted by Ministry of Labour with a marriage extension but not retirement.

One thing to consider is that, if the job ends for any reason, with a B Visa you must leave the country within 7 days (I think) whereas with the marriage extension, ending of the job has no effect on your permission to stay because your reason to stay - marriage - has not changed.

Maybe others will elaborate on what I've said but I think it's basically correct.

[JuniorExPat]

As far as I'm aware and according to many posts I've read on this site and others, a Non-Imm. O Visa with extension of stay based on marriage/children is treated in the same way as a B Visa for WP purposes.

I certainly hope it's correct because I'm currently changing my retirement extension for one based on marriage for that very reason. Immigration people I've talked to have told me that a WP can be granted by Ministry of Labour with a marriage extension but not retirement.

One thing to consider is that, if the job ends for any reason, with a B Visa you must leave the country within 7 days (I think) whereas with the marriage extension, ending of the job has no effect on your permission to stay because your reason to stay - marriage - has not changed.

Maybe others will elaborate on what I've said but I think it's basically correct.

Thanks MartinL, that all makes good sense.

The reason I brought up the Non-Imm B visa is that I can see how it might be a solution to the problem that I would be working for an overseas company that has no office or representation in Thailand.

Some years ago I was on a Non-Imm B visa for business purposes and at that time all I needed to provide for a successful visa application was a letter from my employer stating that I was in the Kingdom on business for said company and that should repatriation be necessary the company guaranteed to cover the costs and make the arrangements. I think there was a requirement to leave the country every 90 days and also to return to my home country to renew the one year visa . . . I think(!). I'm not sure if this is still possible and I am even less sure that it would be possible as I now live here permanently with my family.

I would prefer to be on a Non-Imm O visa for the reasons you mention but I don't know how that fits this scenario.

JxP

[Soutpeel]

To be legal you need a WP, to get a WP it needs to be through a Thai entity (company), and could be on the back of your "O" visa...simple really...you cant work legally for an overseas company in Thailand unless it is tied into a Thai company.

You could set up a Thai company, employ two Thai nationals and get overseas company to sub-contract your Thai company, based on this a WP is possible.

"MartinL" is incorrect in saying if you have a "B" visa and the job ends you must leave the country within 7 days.....If you are here on an extension of stay based on employment (which is not a B visa, incidently) and employment ends you must leave the country on your last day of work or pay for a 7 day extension

[Soutpeel]

The reason I brought up the Non-Imm B visa is that I can see how it might be a solution to the problem that I would be working for an overseas company that has no office or representation in Thailand.

On it own, this is not a solution, to be legal, you need a WP....and just to remind you what you said in your initial post

"Please, no suggestions that would step outside of the law, I do not want to work "under the radar".

therefore you need a visa either "O" or "B" and a work permit.....this is the law..you cannot work solely on an Non-imm B

[jazzbo]

Your use of the word 'working' is nebulous: If you are purchasing materials or contracting for services on behalf of your foreign employer you may IMHO come under the category of "Conducting Business"

If you are selling materials or services or you are doing anything related to services or materials that have already been sold, you will need the WP.

[JuniorExPat]

Thanks Soutpeel and jazzbo.

Soutpeel: "you cant work legally for an overseas company in Thailand unless it is tied into a Thai company." Trying saying that ten times, fast, late on a Friday night! That's is the clarification I needed, I was hoping that a company would not be necessary as my potential employer has no intention of registering an entity in Thailand and I'm not sure that I could justify the cost of setting up a company and covering two salaries myself.

jazzbo: by your definition I would certainly need a work permit, I feel a trip back to the drawing board coming on.

JxP

[Hockeybik]

Like JxP I've been trying to get clear information on this issue. There seems to be huge disagreement and lack of clear information about the differences between "conducting business" and "work" as defined and interpreted by the Foreign Ministry.

The "B" visa allows for "work" under a work permit or to "conduct business" with no real definition or parameters described as to what that is (at least anywhere I can find). Even the ministry web site is vague on what constitutes "conduct business". Conducting business is by definition working and vice versa – isn't it? http://www.mfa.go.th/web/2482.php?id=2492

To obtain a work permit as Soutpeel has said, you have to be tied to a Thai company. Big companies already with presence in Thailand this is no problem but for a small company or a company that for which hiring employees is unnecessary and investment of several million baht is not economically feasible this is an unneeded financial burden.

Then jazzbo is of the opinion that if you are buying goods or services, that may be considered as "conducting business" but if you sell you would be "working". Both are "working" aren't they? Why is one OK and the other not?

So… my questions are (this is for a long term situation, not one that could be covered by the 15 day temporary WP) –

1) Is it possible for someone to function in Thailand as an independent agent for a foreign company? Agent is not employed by any Thai company and no payments are exchanged between any Thai company and the Agent. Said foreign company also has no presence in Thailand and no connection to any Thai company (other than maybe as a client), the agent is paid by the foreign company into a non-Thai bank account. Is this possible? (Legally.)

2) Can an individual function legally in Thailand and earn money without setting up a Thai company, hiring the minimum number of full time employees per work permit and showing the required capital investment (2 million baht/WP)?

3) Can anyone offer any specific examples of individuals operating in Thailand on a small scale and how they are doing it and what they are doing?

4) Is anyone familiar with - Three-Year Non-Immigrant Visa "B" (Business only) - Foreign citizen who wishes to visit Thailand for business purpose may apply for a three-year Non-Immigrant Visa "B". This type of visa may be issued to businessmen for multiple-entries and is valid for 3 years. It allows holder to visit Thailand as often as required for as long as the visa remains valid and allows holder to stay in Thailand for a period of not exceeding 90 days during each visit. Employment of any kind is strictly prohibited for holder of such visa., full description at: http://www.mfa.go.th/web/2482.php?id=2498

Thanks all for the help

Hockeybik

[Mario2008]

The general opinion is that a work permit is not required if you do business with a Thai company and you represent a foreign company, during a business trip. If you are an established agent, you would need to have a work permit, as your base would be Thailand.

But I'm certainly not an expert on this.

[Soutpeel]

Then jazzbo is of the opinion that if you are buying goods or services, that may be considered as "conducting business" but if you sell you would be "working". Both are "working" aren't they? Why is one OK and the other not?

So… my questions are (this is for a long term situation, not one that could be covered by the 15 day temporary WP) –

1) Is it possible for someone to function in Thailand as an independent agent for a foreign company? Agent is not employed by any Thai company and no payments are exchanged between any Thai company and the Agent. Said foreign company also has no presence in Thailand and no connection to any Thai company (other than maybe as a client), the agent is paid by the foreign company into a non-Thai bank account. Is this possible? (Legally.)

2) Can an individual function legally in Thailand and earn money without setting up a Thai company, hiring the minimum number of full time employees per work permit and showing the required capital investment (2 million baht/WP)?

3) Can anyone offer any specific examples of individuals operating in Thailand on a small scale and how they are doing it and what they are doing?

4) Is anyone familiar with - Three-Year Non-Immigrant Visa "B" (Business only) - Foreign citizen who wishes to visit Thailand for business purpose may apply for a three-year Non-Immigrant Visa "B". This type of visa may be issued to businessmen for multiple-entries and is valid for 3 years. It allows holder to visit Thailand as often as required for as long as the visa remains valid and allows holder to stay in Thailand for a period of not exceeding 90 days during each visit. Employment of any kind is strictly prohibited for holder of such visa., full description at: http://www.mfa.go.th/web/2482.php?id=2498

Thanks all for the help

Hockeybik

1. No....closest you can get is a representative office...but this is still a Thai entity and very restrictive what you can and cant do..

2. No

3.Small scale generally operate illegally....ie without a WP

Believe a 3 year Non-imm B is a pain in the ar*e to get, and also note..." Employment of any kind is strictly prohibited....."

This also applies to 1 year Non-imm B...and shows the intent of the B-visa....its not a "work visa" as some people think it is..

[Soutpeel]

The general opinion is that a work permit is not required if you do business with a Thai company and you represent a foreign company, during a business trip. If you are an established agent, you would need to have a work permit, as your base would be Thailand.

But I'm certainly not an expert on this.

Mario,

You are 100% correct.

The company I work for deals with this sort of thing all the time and have a pretty good relationship with immigration & labour dept at a MNC sort of level and here after their interpretation's of the rules.

1. Suppose somebody who resides/works for a company in say Singapore needs to visit Thailand for the purposes of either possibly providing a service or getting a service/product in Thailand, this person can attend meetings and visit vendors on the basis on a Non-imm B only, doesnt need a WP for purposes of setting up the business deal.

2. Suppose in the above company from Singapore provides services in Thailand, personnel coming in country to carry out these services would require a WP. (could be a two week emergency WP)

3. The minute a person is "resident" in Thailand, all bets are off...you need a WP with your Non-imm B or O...you are deemed to be working in Thailand, even with "on-line" companies, and being paid overseas.

[GarryP]

It is also my understanding that if you have a category B visa and work permit and that WP is terminated, you do not need to leave the country immediately provided that your extension of stay was based on marriage and not work. However, you would need to change the basis of supporting your wife from income earned under the WP to money in the bank, i.e. go back to Baht 400,000.

In the OP's position, however, I do not see how he can obtain the WP in the first place without going through the Thai registered company route.

[jazzbo]

All for which I can personally attest is that I remained in LOS based upon two 1-year Non-Imm 'B' visas with no WP and I met the definition as I gave above. I now remain in LOS based upon extension of said 'B' visa for purposes of 'Retirement'.

[bangon04]

The general opinion is that a work permit is not required if you do business with a Thai company and you represent a foreign company, during a business trip. If you are an established agent, you would need to have a work permit, as your base would be Thailand.

But I'm certainly not an expert on this.

To conduct business in Thailand on a B category business visa, without a work permit, you would normally need to be resident outside Thailand, paid outside Thailand, and guaranteed by your company with an address outside Thailand. The 90 day rule applies to a B visa. It should not be relevant whether you are buying, selling, advising, sonsulting or whatever, as long as you are not resident or paid in Thailand.

[StreetCowboy]

Out of interest, how difficult is it to get a work permit for a short period of work by an overseas non-resident employee; for example, a consultant coming to give a one-day training course?

Or carry out a 20-day project?

I assume both of these would require a work permit if one was committed to complying with the law...

SC

[bangon04]

Out of interest, how difficult is it to get a work permit for a short period of work by an overseas non-resident employee; for example, a consultant coming to give a one-day training course?

Or carry out a 20-day project?

I assume both of these would require a work permit if one was committed to complying with the law...

SC

If you are non-resident in Thailand and you are paid by your company outside Thailand, then normally your company outside Thailand would invoice their client for services provided eg training courses. Therefore you are not subject to WP, as you are consulting / providing services on behalf of your company. Just a B visa.

Edited June 3, 2010 by bangon04

[StreetCowboy]

Out of interest, how difficult is it to get a work permit for a short period of work by an overseas non-resident employee; for example, a consultant coming to give a one-day training course?

Or carry out a 20-day project?

I assume both of these would require a work permit if one was committed to complying with the law...

SC

If you are non-resident in Thailand and you are paid by your company outside Thailand, then normally your company outside Thailand would invoice their client for services provided eg training courses. Therefore you are not subject to WP, as you are consulting / providing services on behalf of your company. Just a B visa.

That seems contrary to Soutpeel's Item 2/ above:-

"2. Suppose in the above company from Singapore provides services in Thailand, personnel coming in country to carry out these services would require a WP. (could be a two week emergency WP)"

It would seem that if you are actually providing a service (as opposed to jst talking about providing a service) then you are working, as opposed to doing business...

just as if you are buying something, you are doing business no different from any tourist in chatuchak, whereas if you are selling, you are working, no different from any vendor in chatuchak.

SC

[Soutpeel]

The general opinion is that a work permit is not required if you do business with a Thai company and you represent a foreign company, during a business trip. If you are an established agent, you would need to have a work permit, as your base would be Thailand.

But I'm certainly not an expert on this.

To conduct business in Thailand on a B category business visa, without a work permit, you would normally need to be resident outside Thailand, paid outside Thailand, and guaranteed by your company with an address outside Thailand. The 90 day rule applies to a B visa. It should not be relevant whether you are buying, selling, advising, sonsulting or whatever, as long as you are not resident or paid in Thailand.

Being paid in Thailand or not is irrelavant as regards the WP requirements, as is commonly know volunteers require a WP

[Soutpeel]

Out of interest, how difficult is it to get a work permit for a short period of work by an overseas non-resident employee; for example, a consultant coming to give a one-day training course?

Or carry out a 20-day project?

I assume both of these would require a work permit if one was committed to complying with the law...

SC

If you are non-resident in Thailand and you are paid by your company outside Thailand, then normally your company outside Thailand would invoice their client for services provided eg training courses. Therefore you are not subject to WP, as you are consulting / providing services on behalf of your company. Just a B visa.

You are wrong....technically speaking, you should have a WP, this is reason there is an animal called a temporary work permit in Thailand valid for 14 days...a.k.a. An Emergency WP.

We have people coming into Thailand all the time giving training courses etc etc, and dependent how much time they will spend here during the year determines whether they get a full WP or emergency WP.

Whether the requirement is enforced or not by immigration/labour is another debate....

[RubbaJohnny]

Intersting debate

What if the trainer is self employed/frelance etc

[Soutpeel]

Intersting debate

What if the trainer is self employed/frelance etc

You still need a WP...and would be applied for by the host Thai company, the same one who issued you your letter of invitation to get your Non-imm B..

[Frontier]

Just briefly my two cents, which is that I've met a few expats from the UK that got their Non-B for 1 year without the Work Permit (WP) as they are paid in the UK. They are still working for their company in the capacity where the work that they perform are based in the UK and nothing to do with Thailand. For example, if you are an engineer for your firm in Singapore and they want you to review designs and evaluate projects in Singapore and you can submit it online from anywhere (say Thailand) then they can pass muster without getting a WP for you. This is only from what I've seen and know from the people I've met and talked to personally. However, some of the replies above are correct, if you are working in Thailand then you do need a WP with the Non-B. Also, as an independent consultant, it's probably likely that the company may not provide you with the WP if they are based elsewhere.

Make sure you talk to a reputable law firm or attorney that is professional and he/she should be able to explain it to you Email me if you want a referral, and it's not for me so there's no conflict.

With regards,

Cathy Tran Reck

[Soutpeel]

Just briefly my two cents, which is that I've met a few expats from the UK that got their Non-B for 1 year without the Work Permit (WP) as they are paid in the UK. They are still working for their company in the capacity where the work that they perform are based in the UK and nothing to do with Thailand. For example, if you are an engineer for your firm in Singapore and they want you to review designs and evaluate projects in Singapore and you can submit it online from anywhere (say Thailand) then they can pass muster without getting a WP for you. This is only from what I've seen and know from the people I've met and talked to personally. However, some of the replies above are correct, if you are working in Thailand then you do need a WP with the Non-B. Also, as an independent consultant, it's probably likely that the company may not provide you with the WP if they are based elsewhere.

Make sure you talk to a reputable law firm or attorney that is professional and he/she should be able to explain it to you Email me if you want a referral, and it's not for me so there's no conflict.

With regards,

Cathy Tran Reck

Actually Cathy,

You are incorrect on a couple of points,

1.. You dont get your WP before you get your Non-imm B, you can be issued a Non-imm B without a WP, but this doesnt mean you can work in Thailand, all it means is you have a visa for the purposes of business.

I will cite one of the earlier posts which talks about a 3 year Non-imm B, and there is a quote from a goverment web-site which says " you are prohibited to work on this visa"

2. You do not need a Non-imm B to be issued with a WP, any Non-imm visa is can have a WP tacked to it.

3. From an Immigration/Labour dept source, the example you cite above working illegally in Thailand in their intepretation.

4. "the company may not provide you a WP, if they are based somewhere else" Based somewhere else, one assumes a company not based in Thailand ?....if this is case they cannot get you a WP anyway....it needs to be a Thai entity