More Bloodshed In Bangkok As Red Siege Continues

[Throatwobbler]

it is a pity we can't post texts from the Bangkok Post here, the editor Voranai Vanijaka wrote a nice article about why this rebellion should be put out swiftly.

Put an end to this rebellion

Author: Voranai Vanijaka

Published: 16/05/2010 at 12:00 AM

Bangkok Post

Very clever man to talk about something they cannot do.

if can do, they do already.

Abhisit going to die of old age soon. he look 60 year old tonight on tv and smiley boy from thai soap face now very gaunt. som nam nah

bull post and bull article

Yeah we know your post are bull. You didnt have to point that out for us

[jcbangkok]

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Edited May 16, 2010 by jcbangkok

[473geo]

Do you guys think the Red Shirt leaders are even able to stop this now? Or have the hardliners gone off on their own? I get the feeling they have.

I think that is a possibilty.......and I also feel there are more dangerous weapons out there which have been held back as long as they were in control.....I hope I am wrong

Hardliners are fighting for a reason ... we can argue all day what that reason is.

However, there are just some violent people looking for trouble now and those are the ones I think we need to be more concerned with. Few have guns but they all have matches (lighters ... do Thais even use matches?) and the willingness and possible desire to loot and set buildings on fire. Any time you have riots or chaos like this, these people come out of the woodwork.

True, and there has been mention before of the possibility of many weapons appropriated from the army. My bet is, these are not in the Bangkok fortress.......that must also be a concern

[roykeanz]

http://twitpic.com/1mvgri

Harry Potter in Red Camp.

You mean the funny looking guy in glasses toward the back or Veera standing beside Nattawut wearing the cloak of invisibility?

That's from a real movie actually - "Harry Potter enters the Den of Dark Demonic Devil Douches."

The prequel to  "Harry Potter gets Screwed by Salivating Satanic Succubus Scumbag Shitwad(dtra)" ... (aka "Petted by the President") !!

[Rinrada]

Situation reminds me of another rather famous siege that is now part of history.....The Alamo... and look what happened there....to compare:....sometime in the FUTURE...

The Battle of Bangkok (March ...June, 2010) was a pivotal event in the Thai Revolution and quest for Democricy and Freedom

Following a 3 month siege, Thai troops under President General Abisit de Santa Anna launched an assault on the Red Mission near Lumpini Park (rename Freedom Park in modern-day Bangkok, Siam).

All but two of the RED defenders were killed.

Abisit and Thugsuban perceived cruelty during the battle inspired many Thais—both Siam residents and expats from the around the World to join the new RED Thai Army which eventually...........

Buoyed by a desire for revenge, the New Free Thai -"Seri Thai s army eventually defeated the "regime ancien".....and......history repeats itself....thats about right init..

Could it ...maybe .......

[Netfan]

Do you guys think the Red Shirt leaders are even able to stop this now? Or have the hardliners gone off on their own? I get the feeling they have.

I think that is a possibilty.......and I also feel there are more dangerous weapons out there which have been held back as long as they were in control.....I hope I am wrong

Hardliners are fighting for a reason ... we can argue all day what that reason is.

However, there are just some violent people looking for trouble now and those are the ones I think we need to be more concerned with. Few have guns but they all have matches (lighters ... do Thais even use matches?) and the willingness and possible desire to loot and set buildings on fire. Any time you have riots or chaos like this, these people come out of the woodwork.

That's their big problem now. Even if they do get some kind of cease-fire agreed to - how do the the leaders reign in what they've started? But it's a chicken and egg game. In that NYT article Nattawut says he will withdraw militant fighters from the streets and negotiate if the government calls a cease-fire and withdraws. Government wants Reds to call cease fire and withdraw first. The Times reporter called Nutawut on saying he's close enough to the violent group of protesters to call them off. Jatuporn still claiming he will fight to the death. Glad to hear that.

[aussiejosh]

I heard something earlier from lumpini direction... nothing now

[Abrak]

To me it is plainly obvious that everything is being manipulated by the military.

This is the third day of the crackdown. The military havent approached the encampment. They sealed it off but apparently are prepared to allow thugs to get out and roam around Silom/Sathorn where they are fairly easy targets. So they have been shooting Thais armed with not very much while accomplishing nothing. Do you really think they couldnt have closed down the protest? Arent they in many ways escalating the violence or allowing to escalate? I mean if they sealed off the encampment how do these guys get out?

Something else has happened. Abhisit that had originally placed restoring order responsibility with the military has now taken personal responsibility to end it. So if you consider that the military are a third force in Thai politics, he has now exposed himself to responsibility for the protest not ending and/or escalating violence. So if things get out of control the military can step in with a coup or if there substantial killing of citizens he will bear responsibility.

Now, of course the military were quite keen on Abhisit for a while but he made a big mistake. He cut their 2010 budget by 10% or US$600m while the military wanted it increased. (It had doubled during the coup years 2006-2009.)

If you notice everyone is leaving the country presumably because they fear a coup. And getting rid of Abhisit would stop the protests. But after the 2006 coup the army presumably learnt they couldnt run the country and they were better off 'influencing' the Government. So I seriously believe the military is manipulating the protestors - which they might sensibly do to get the violent ones out in the open. They have Abhisit by the short and curlies. They are showing that ultimately the military run the country and they certainly didnt like the idea of Abhisit's plans for a new constitution. So I am sure that if they keep him on there will be a quid pro quo or they may get rid of him. As Thaksin found out it is a big mistake to mess with the military's business.

Someone said to me today that Abhisit does not control the military and they are pursuing their own agenda

Edited May 16, 2010 by Abrak

[ETatBKK]

TNN: Updating the situation over that the Temple where Women & Children rest. But still have some around the Ratchaprasong stage area.

Live Picture of the Children and Women Sleeping at the Temple at Ratchaprasong. http://twitpic.com/1odlct /via @RichardBarrow

this is the happiest moment of the day - at least some women, children ( and guys too ) are moved into the temple next to the protest site !!

well done, credit to anyone helping this happens, including the red shirts allow their 'departure' !!

edit : good night folks !

Edited May 16, 2010 by ETatBKK

[hegenious]

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[tgw]

To me it is plainly obvious that everything is being manipulated by the military.

This is the third day of the crackdown. The military havent approached the encampment. They sealed it off but apparently are prepared to allow thugs to get out and roam around Silom/Sathorn where they are fairly easy targets. So they have been shooting Thais armed with not very much while accomplishing nothing. Do you really think they couldnt have closed down the protest? Arent they in many ways escalating the violence or allowing to escalate? I mean if they sealed off the encampment how do these guys get out?

Something else has happened. Abhisit that had originally placed restoring order responsibility with the military has now taken personal responsibility to end it. So if you consider that the military are a third force in Thai politics, he has now exposed himself to responsibility for the protest not ending and/or escalating violence. So if things get out of control the military can step in with a coup or if there substantial killing of citizens he will bear responsibility.

Now, of course the military were quite keen on Abhisit for a while but he made a big mistake. He cut their 2010 budget by 10% or US$600m while the military wanted it increased. (It had doubled during the coup years 2006-2009.)

If you notice everyone is leaving the country presumably because they fear a coup. And getting rid of Abhisit would stop the protests. But after the 2006 coup the army presumably learnt they couldnt run the country and they were better off 'influencing' the Government. So I seriously believe the military is manipulating the protestors - which they might sensibly do to get the violent ones out in the open. They have Abhisit by the short and curlies. They are showing that ultimately the military run the country and they certainly didnt like the idea of Abhisit's plans for a new constitution. So I am sure that if they keep him on there will be a quid pro quo or they may get rid of him. As Thaksin found out it is a big mistake to mess with the military's business.

Someone said to me today that Abhisit does not control the military and they are pursuing their own agenda

aaah, I think that is too capillotracted .... can't be true.

[patjem]

To me it is plainly obvious that everything is being manipulated by the military.

This is the third day of the crackdown. The military havent approached the encampment. They sealed it off but apparently are prepared to allow thugs to get out and roam around Silom/Sathorn where they are fairly easy targets. So they have been shooting Thais armed with not very much while accomplishing nothing. Do you really think they couldnt have closed down the protest? Arent they in many ways escalating the violence or allowing to escalate? I mean if they sealed off the encampment how do these guys get out?

Something else has happened. Abhisit that had originally placed restoring order responsibility with the military has now taken personal responsibility to end it. So if you consider that the military are a third force in Thai politics, he has now exposed himself to responsibility for the protest not ending and/or escalating violence. So if things get out of control the military can step in with a coup or if there substantial killing of citizens he will bear responsibility.

Now, of course the military were quite keen on Abhisit for a while but he made a big mistake. He cut their 2010 budget by 10% or US$600m while the military wanted it increased. (It had doubled during the coup years 2006-2009.)

If you notice everyone is leaving the country presumably because they fear a coup. And getting rid of Abhisit would stop the protests. But after the 2006 coup the army presumably learnt they couldnt run the country and they were better off 'influencing' the Government. So I seriously believe the military is manipulating the protestors - which they might sensibly do to get the violent ones out in the open. They have Abhisit by the short and curlies. They are showing that ultimately the military run the country and they certainly didnt like the idea of Abhisit's plans for a new constitution. So I am sure that if they keep him on there will be a quid pro quo or they may get rid of him. As Thaksin found out it is a big mistake to mess with the military's business.

Someone said to me today that Abhisit does not control the military and they are pursuing their own agenda

Could be jumping to conclusions. Army declared they were not going to infiltrate, only close off. The rest is only a guess?

[Jerrytheyoung]

What do you guys think would be the next appropriate step Govt could take if this violence carries on for furhter 2-3 days ?

Guys with "kill them all" approach pls don't reply...

They need to really seal off the area, and after trying to get as many children and oldies as possible out, put so much tear gas in continuously that they are forced out.

What happens after that is the really tricky thing, as if not dealt with properly, will only happen again next dry season, or it will be the Yellows turn ad infinitum. Personally, I'd charge all the red guards with rebellion and attempting to overthrow the government, and put them to hard labour for 30 years, but probably won't happen. I don't see any difference between them and the Times Square bomber. Anyone reckon he'll be getting a slap on the hand, despite not actually killing anyone?

I'm sure there are alternatives to tear gas too. The US is working on non lethal sound weapons I believe. Good chance to test them here.

There are some dimensions which are going far and that nobody underlines;

1- Red Shirts movement is composite as in events of this nature. So the direction taken by the movement depends on the leading group (Which may vary with time). In order to stop this kind of event (social unrest, a civil war, an insurrection)...an amnesty has to be part of the agreement for cooling down the situation. Thai military, themselves have been introducing an amnesty clausus for clearing themselves (2006). If Abhisit has proposed elections and roadmap, (proposal which was going in the good direction), there was nothing about amnesty and as we are not in the secrete discussions there may be also some other disagreements, that History will reveal later.

2- It is clear that, superimposed to the Red Shirts some militias are active, probably several from different sides...

3- In Issan, -Thais have a "chang" memory- , history has been very turbulent. Some part of Issan were initially Laotian, Cambodian and have been exchanged against other territories with the French administration during the French colonialist period. Then during the American Vietnam war, Thailand has been a support to US operations. So, in NE Issan, you have families of Laotian/ Vietnamese origin from French Period, then refugees from Communist era, then the Issaners have been involved by the cleaning of the Thai Communist Party, on both sides...On the Chiangmai areas, some tribes were used for smuggling ammunitions to resistance in North Vietnam and Laos...Today, the situation is quiet but each family has a long history made of sufferings and poverty and of trading with war situations. Mostly they do appreciate Peace as the first priority.

But, since years and years, nothing has been done to develop this region and give a job to everybody. An important part of the youth is jobless. As the education has been neglected since years and years, they can only apply for small jobs. They constitute the major part off the low qualified workforce in the Bangkokian area. So those youngsters have no visible future and are available for any adventure.

4- Due to this turbulent history, neighbouring countries are observers but some must have some itchings due to the engagement of the Kingdom during the Vietnam war and the "cleaning" of the Thai communist Party. So, if things are going too far, at least some supports may be provided, maybe more... The declarations of the neighbouring Countries have to be surveyed accurately and must not be underestimated, and this support the idea that time is working against the Government.

IMHO, taking into account all that, the current Government has to solve the issue quickly and it must be as peacefully as possible: time is running against him. He has to understand an amnesty clausus is a requirement for bringing back the Country to Peace. Unity but also solidarity between Thais as to be expressed clearly, (Not the taxes are coming from Bangkok, so it must be spend in Bangkok as some forumers are posting: it is fundamentally at the opposite of the Nation concept).

Unity is the big priority, and everybody on this Forum is also aware that time is running against the Institutions if the shamble is not fixed quickly (we cannot talk about that on this forum).

Today the last developments are going the opposite ways: provocation in the Provinces by extending the SOE, financial measures which are easy to by-pass and just add a layer of irks.

[BNZ]

 this is the happiest moment of the day - at least some women, children ( and guys too ) are moved into the temple next to the protest site !!

well done, credit to anyone helping this happens, including the red shirts allow their 'departure' !!

edit : good night folks !

I'm happy that you're happy

[Rinrada]

Thailand rejects protesters' UN-backed talks plan

"We reject their demands for UN mediation...

No Thai government has ever let anyone intervene with our internal affairs," he said.

Plea to Red Cross.

A state of emergency has been declared in more than 20 provinces across the country - mostly in the protesters' northern heartlands - in a bid to stop more demonstrators heading to the capital.

I have heard that there is back up RED formations around Bangkok and within ...Klong Toey ..etc.and others ready to act ....But MKJ....

The clashes have raised questions about the stability of Thailand, South East Asia's second-largest economyand many of the protesters are from poor rural areas in northern Thailand where support is still strong for former Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra, who was ousted in a 2006 coup.

Mr Thaksin has called on the government to withdraw troops and restart negotiations

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/8685051.stm

[bkksteviejai]

What do you guys think would be the next appropriate step Govt could take if this violence carries on for furhter 2-3 days ?

Guys with "kill them all" approach pls don't reply...

There is surely only one person who can stop this now.

Yep. Agreed.

Batman?

[VictorMeldrewBKK]

I appreciate that some of you guys are new but besides the usual trolling stuff, you do realise that you cannot make references to certain people on this forum?

I suggest you hurry back and edit out those references if you feel like remaining a member.

I'm hoping there is some "firewall" against some of the inane comments here. but if there was how is it that viking75 blows hot air offensively and seems to do it at will? let me know cus' I'm fairly new to this and I'm with you.

[VictorMeldrewBKK]

Unarmed protesters! HELLO

Of the 500 Israeli-made Tavor Tar-21 assault rifles seized by the protesters, only 200 were returned to the Army. Some M16s, had returned. The protesters also have M67 grenades, M79 grenade launchers and rocket-propelled grenade launchers. They also seized many assault rifles from the military during the clashes with security forces on April 10 at Khok Wua intersection, the sources said.

Edited May 16, 2010 by VictorMeldrewBKK

[jcbangkok]

 this is the happiest moment of the day - at least some women, children ( and guys too ) are moved into the temple next to the protest site !!

well done, credit to anyone helping this happens, including the red shirts allow their 'departure' !!

edit : good night folks !

I'm happy that you're happy

If past actions are to be used to predict this new news then we can expect that the reds will have the temple surrounded to "protect" the "women and children" that they have been using as human shields. Obviously this will be a clear indication that they got stuff in their they don't want anybody to see.

I also predict there will be lots of red men and red guards going in and out of the temple to checkup on the "women and children"

[Neilly]

Latest Death Toll: '29' (All Civilians). Injured: '221' /via @tulsathit

shows who the main aggressors are, the army!!

facts to back up the statement!!

Shows who are using better combat tactics. And in terms of weapons, the military is actually out-gunned, Reds are using grenades, military isn't.

I haven't seen any reports that the Reds have used grenades so far? If they have people with heavy arms it seems like they have not joined the fighting yet.

Don't wish to be rude...but where in the hel_l have you been for last couple of days! Has been photo'd and reported regularly

[viking75]

I wish some of these guys would just go to bed when they come home from the pub, trying to read their "spider crawl" and then trying to work out their logic is giving me a headache.

Good night all, try not to think what all this is doing to our adopted country!

Cheers.

It is still the land we love.

Maybe under a new government we will all learn to love each other again and get on with bitching about visa rules.

[lilkitty]

Can someone tell me how much the 55 pages of discussion here have contributed to an actual solution?

[jcbangkok]

Thailand rejects protesters' UN-backed talks plan

"We reject their demands for UN mediation...

No Thai government has ever let anyone intervene with our internal affairs," he said.

Plea to Red Cross.

A state of emergency has been declared in more than 20 provinces across the country - mostly in the protesters' northern heartlands - in a bid to stop more demonstrators heading to the capital.

I have heard that there is back up RED formations around Bangkok and within ...Klong Toey ..etc.and others ready to act ....But MKJ....

The clashes have raised questions about the stability of Thailand, South East Asia's second-largest economyand many of the protesters are from poor rural areas in northern Thailand where support is still strong for former Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra, who was ousted in a 2006 coup.

Mr Thaksin has called on the government to withdraw troops and restart negotiations

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/8685051.stm

same article with different cut and pastes

Thailand rejects protesters' UN-backed talks plan

The protesters, known as red-shirts, have been camped in Bangkok for months.

A red-shirt leader, Nattawut Saikua, said protesters were willing to hold UN-moderated talks to end the stand-off, providing that the army withdrew from the area around the red-shirt camp.

Officials have urged women and older people to leave the protest zone by Monday afternoon, and have asked for help from the Red Cross.

Sporadic clashes were reported on Sunday, but not on the same scale as previous days.

The BBC's Rachel Harvey says streets around the protest area are littered with fires; thick black smoke is rising into the air.

She says the pattern of demonstrations is that the protesters set up a disturbance and fires in one area, and the troops try to gain control of that area - then the demonstrators move somewhere else.

Thousands of demonstrators remain behind makeshift barricades of rubber tyres, sandbags and bamboo stakes in the Ratchaprasong commercial district.

Mr Abhisit and security officials have insisted that their operations against the protesters have targeted armed "terrorists" who they say have infiltrated the protesters.

"We cannot leave the country in a situation where people who don't obey the law are holding hostage the people of Bangkok, as well as the centre of the country," he said.

[roykeanz]

Situation reminds me of another rather famous siege that is now part of history.....The Alamo... and look what happened there....to compare:....sometime in the FUTURE...

The Battle of Bangkok (March ...June, 2010) was a pivotal event in the Thai Revolution and quest for Democricy and Freedom

Following a 3 month siege, Thai troops under President General Abisit de Santa Anna launched an assault on the Red Mission near Lumpini Park (rename Freedom Park in modern-day Bangkok, Siam).

All but two of the RED defenders were killed.

Abisit and Thugsuban perceived cruelty during the battle inspired many Thais—both Siam residents and expats from the around the World to join the new RED Thai Army which eventually...........

Buoyed by a desire for revenge, the New Free Thai -"Seri Thai s army eventually defeated the "regime ancien".....and......history repeats itself....thats about right init..

Could it ...maybe .......

What sort of cheap, red, brain-eroding, sub-Sangsom hooch are you on buddy? 

[jcbangkok]

Can someone tell me how much the 55 pages of discussion here have contributed to an actual solution?

Was that goal of anyone here?

[lilkitty]

They decided to ram a stick inside a beehive and now the bees are swarming out. It didn't need an Einstein to tell them that if they crack down on Rajprasong, the red shirts won't just go home but they will go all over the city, which is what we're seeing now. A 5 year old knows not to ram a stick inside a beehive.

The army may win the battle of Bangkok, but they have lost the war for the country. That, my friends, is the truth.

[Jingthing]

Can someone tell me how much the 55 pages of discussion here have contributed to an actual solution?

None of course. What a silly question. The solution now is in the hands of the brave Thai soldiers fighting the red shirt insurgency.

[lilkitty]

Can someone tell me how much the 55 pages of discussion here have contributed to an actual solution?

Was that goal of anyone here?

I see people fighting back and forth for hours and hours. Everyone has an opinion, everyone has a point, nobody is achieving anything, except maybe get a heart attack.

[Abrak]

Could be jumping to conclusions. Army declared they were not going to infiltrate, only close off. The rest is only a guess?

Didnt do much of a job of closing off.

Not just a guess actually. Earlier in the thread I suggested that the army should disarm before entering the encampment and, as I thought it was a good idea, I rang someone close to the Government. He said 'the military will never accept it, Abhisit does not control the military and they are pursuing their own agenda.' He also said you can see 'the military are shooting Thais while achieving nothing and that is not good either in the eyes of Thais or internationally.' He also said the 'police and military are corrupt to their very core.'

So yes there is quite a lot of guessing in there. But I know Abhisit is committed to reducing the influence of the army in Thai politics. Also remember there is the army reshuffle coming up and he wanted to replace the coup's constitution. There are some 3500 people at the encampment do you think the Thai army cant contain them when they can execute a coup in three hours.

So yes quite a lot of guesswork but it all seems to add up to me.

So it isnt hard to believe they are manipulating this protest - in fact it must be harder to believe they apparently cant contain it. Cutting the military budget and revising the constitution as well as having a say in the army reshuffle, I dont think would go down well. Thaksin got kicked out for mucking about with the reshuffle.

[jcbangkok]

Can someone tell me how much the 55 pages of discussion here have contributed to an actual solution?

Was that goal of anyone here?

I see people fighting back and forth for hours and hours. Everyone has an opinion, everyone has a point, nobody is achieving anything, except maybe get a heart attack.

If your goal is to solve any of the problems of the world or Thailand then you definitely are in the wrong place.