More Bloodshed In Bangkok As Red Siege Continues

[pornsasi]

Why? There are a couple advantages...

1) He was just as much of a threat to the red's than to the government. You ever hear what he's said about them?

2) His death would make him either a martyr or at least embolden the red cause.

3) The reds are the only ones who benefit when anyone dies.

...not saying the reds did it, but I'm always amazed how you see the world in black and white.

Much too big a political risk , and those reds opposing him are moderate .

No , those who did it are those who dont care about the risks as they are

above the law .

That are those who shot the reds from the roof on April 10th . And I dont mean Abhisit soldiers

in all fairness .

Edited May 17, 2010 by pornsasi

[earthpig]

Anybody see this small plane flying over the rajaprasong site?

yesterday a small plane was continuously flying rather high over the battle of bon kai.

also it was claimed that helos were overflyin and dropping unkown objects, but i didnt see that myself.

[LuckyLew]

""We're hearing Nattiwat saying no need for UN for negotiations but troops must withdraw. Doesn't sound good for ceasefire." /Via @aleithead"

Tick tock ... tick tock....

The writing is on the wall

Tick tock ... tick tock ...

legit red protestors should walk out of protest zone

in a direction that is not towards vistory monument

or klong toey.

Notice on Tele now ... "protestors shold get out now

vacate area"

tick tock ... tick tock ...

[lilkitty]

Obviously, the army has every right to shoot the armed fractions, but they have absolutely no excuse for shooting at women and children. Shame on them

[humfurry]

Well they have about half an hour to get out of there... Yawn

Edited May 17, 2010 by humfurry

[pornsasi]

Aside from that I repeat that this is Thaksin's war and he is ultimately responsible.

indeed, you do repeat your view. and repeat and repeat....

thaksin absolutely shares responsibility for this. but to suggest that he is the only--or even the most important--player is, in my ever so humble opinion, is an unhelpful oversimplification.

there are a huge number of other factors at play here. some of these factors are due to economic factors that affect all rapidly developing societies, others are unique to thailand and some even to buddhism.

true, any leader responsibile for a tak bai or thousands of extra judicial murders is ultimately going to be hated. good riddance to the man.

but this fact should not obscure the truth, and the truth encompasses far more than thaksin, his many sins and indeed as well, his political genius.

Yes the truth is much more complex then just Thaksin IMHO

[lilkitty]

Well that have about half an hour to get out of there... Yawn

Get out the candles to light in memory of the innocent women and children about to die.

[Jingthing]

Obviously, the army has every right to shoot the armed fractions, but they have absolutely no excuse for shooting at women and children. Shame on them

Agreed, red Kitty. However, in war situations, accidents do happen. Best thing for ALL of the reds - SURRENDER.

[thefusilier]

Why? There are a couple advantages...

1) He was just as much of a threat to the red's than to the government. You ever hear what he's said about them?

2) His death would make him either a martyr or at least embolden the red cause.

3) The reds are the only ones who benefit when anyone dies.

...not saying the reds did it, but I'm always amazed how you see the world in black and white.

Much too big a political risk , and those reds opposing him are moderate .

No , those who did it are those who dont care about the risks as they are

above the law .

That are those who shot the reds from the roof on April 10th . And I dont mean Abhisit soldiers

in all fairness .

Sticking around past 3:00 means the reds don't care about taking risks.

How is it a lesser political risk for the government?

Ah... yes. Its always somebody else with you isn't it? Never the reds. See? That railroaded judgment is why so many people here have blocked you. Keep it up and you'll be posting without an audience soon enough.

[BKjohn]

Well that have about half an hour to get out of there... Yawn

Get out the candles to light in memory of the innocent women and children about to die.

cut the BS - anyone dies he or she has only to blame themselves and if any children die, the parents are to blame - walk out and live stay and face the chance of being shot simple as that so get the fuc_k out and go home - how much more is the government to do to help them ?

[humfurry]

Well that have about half an hour to get out of there... Yawn

Get out the candles to light in memory of the innocent women and children about to die.

Well I know that some were evacuated... and that an airplane has been dropping leaflets over the site. I hope the Red leaders know what's coming and get any others left there out.

[toptuan]

Thunder overhead. Storm & troops approaching slowly. #redshirts showing no fear /via @photo_journ

Talk about ominous. Sounds like from a novel....

[lungmi]

BBC reporting now much more balanced.

Sean Boonpracond speaking for the reds admitted some of the reds are armed.

He also failed to answer BBC question "why don't you just leave"?

He also claimed most foreigners supported the reds. (Well I for one do not)

Video of young Thai thugs building piles of tyres for burning. Are these people on Yaba or what?

Repeated polling here at Thaivisa.com over years now definitely shows that the VAST MAJORITY of foreigners in Thailand do NOT support the red shirt/Thaksin movement. The vast majority DO support social reforms of many kinds here but that is NOT the same thing as supporting the red shirt violent insurgency make Thaksin dictator movement.

As another poster stated, if the red insurgents and their more innocent fellow travelers want to avoid violence, just walk away. At this point because of the war that they declared and started, they may have to wave a white flag, but that is their fault.

The legends creators of T. beneficences forget one. Most of the development projects for the poor in Thailand came from Chuan Leek Pai, Abhisit follows now.

Mr.T had a good finance minister (I forgot the name for the moment, but he was at the same level as Mr.Korn and Anand). He was quickly in opposition to Mr.T, because he wanted development for all poors in Thailand, not only in the districts where Mr.T had his followers. He was "promoted" to minister of Economics. Where he is now?

Red defenders in this forum, if someone can give me the name, I defend your right to post in this forum. If you cannot, every other poster

will know - I'm not in the kindergarden, I have no training to take care of ignorant babies. They have the right to purp, to puke, to shit, but it's not my job to swap their pampers-

[humfurry]

Thunder overhead. Storm & troops approaching slowly. #redshirts showing no fear /via @photo_journ

Talk about ominous. Sounds like from a novel....

We just had a nasty thunderstorm up in Sai mai.... must be headed your way.

[whybother]

Obviously, the army has every right to shoot the armed fractions, but they have absolutely no excuse for shooting at women and children. Shame on them

The women and children have every oppotunity to get out of the trouble that the armed factions are causing.

They fact that many of them are staying basically means that they support what the armed factions are doing.

If they support them, then they need to live (or unfortunately, possibly die) with the consequences.

[earthpig]

Agreed. So they win, you think they will be satisfied with a "free and fair" election? This is a revolutionary insurgency looking to completely topple all existing government structures in Thailand.

oh for heaven sake's Jing, get our from behind your monitor and go get to know the reds and what they want.

and if you would actually get to know some you would learn that they want a fair shake. give them a chance to sit at the table, give them some dignity and they will play the game with everybody else. rob them of that dignity by deposing the one thai political leader, thaksin, whom they felt represented their interests and of course they are furious. fury suppressed long enough turns violent: always, everywhere.

remember it doesnt matter what u or i think of thaksin, it matters what they think of him. thaksin was the first political leader who appeared to care for them. that counts in politics, big time!

a free and fair election will bring peace back to this country IF the violence doesnt first go to far.

where that line is i have no idea now, but i bet u all will know if we get there.

lets not.

[rabo]

Aside from that I repeat that this is Thaksin's war and he is ultimately responsible.

indeed, you do repeat your view. and repeat and repeat....

thaksin absolutely shares responsibility for this. but to suggest that he is the only--or even the most important--player is, in my ever so humble opinion, is an unhelpful oversimplification.

there are a huge number of other factors at play here. some of these factors are due to economic factors that affect all rapidly developing societies, others are unique to thailand and some even to buddhism.

true, any leader responsibile for a tak bai or thousands of extra judicial murders is ultimately going to be hated. good riddance to the man.

but this fact should not obscure the truth, and the truth encompasses far more than thaksin, his many sins and indeed as well, his political genius.

earthpig, I cannot fault your statement, I can only say the situation is too complex for brief discussion, I think everyone is having trouble with that. Here is something I wrote earlier for a different audience.

The Dark Side of Light, or why you shouldn't litter

There is a Western concept called nipping a problem in the bud. This concept is unknown in Thai culture.

Thailand's mai ben arai, not my problem, non involvement style has always been the basis of a relaxed, friendly, yet rather free lifestyle enjoyed by all and the main reason foreigners have always been so welcome. This style is a direct consequence of their Buddhist teaching and probably being raised in a benevolent Kingdom.

The dark side of this picture (for where there's day there is night) is that the bad seeds of society are allowed to grow and flourish. Bad people and bad things are ignored or tolerated. In the past though there has always been balance. When the weed grew too tall and everyone around had had enough, some in the community or maybe even the family simply helped the bad one onto their next life. I've seen this happen including the crazy guy who one day came looking for me with a gun. A few months later he was killed on a visit back home. (And I swear .....)

Most everything that happens in Thailand can be understood in this framework, and by knowing whatever is said must sound pleasant. Truth is not the issue. This is especially true of the corruption, lack of law enforcement, and the rise of people like Mr. Thaksin. Unfortunatly, as Thailand confronts the modern world, easing in to some form of democracy (at the insistence of the monarchy) these problems grow bigger and have gone out of control. In addition to democracy and handphones, the west introduces concepts like wealth, greed, power, social unrest, hatred, and war. No, this is not naive, it's relative.

Thaksin is just the great weed. True, Thaksin was able to build a power base on the growing economic imbalances between the industrializing urban cites and the rural farmers. But this is the small picture, which does not represent a need or desire for social upheaval or revolution. The big picture is how does a benevolent and overly free society deal with weeds, watered by modern wealth and corruption, when they grow to the size of a mini Hitler.

This time, a coup didn't work. The weed is too big and rooted in fertile soil. Thaksin is fed by an all but insane "leadership", hundreds of unemployed disgruntled rangers, thousands of well armed thugs, and billions of stolen dollars. This time there is no easy way out, if any way at all. For Thailand, it is now do or die and there's no turning back.

What should be done, though there's no time now, is go back to the beginning, early childhood and begin teaching social responsibility along with the wai-ing and respect that makes them Thai. Teach them to be responsible for the bad that occurs in society, and especially to accept real law enforcement.

As for democracy, there is also no turning back but the Thais must clean up their house first. Democracy doesn't function with out law and order. That bears repeating, democracy does not function with out law and order. So yes, today is a day of momentous change and maybe civil war but the war will not be fought between oppressed under classes and aloof elite, a la West. It must be fought between freedom and social responsibility. Thailand of course means Land of the Free.

Maybe in some not too distant future you can return to Thailand, be greeted by some pretty thing that smiles and talks on like a breeze, then gently puts her hand in yours and takes you to the police station to pay your fine for littering in their nice kingdom. I think that's my dream.

Sorry to go on and on, but this is the problem here, today. I hope it can be fixed without throwing out what the world has come to know as amazing Thailand.

[GarryP]

Of the unruly crowds outside the rally grounds, I really wonder the what is the percentage of common thugs and criminals who become opportunists at times like this. I'm sure we'll probably never know, but I'm equally sure they're out there, which makes this that much more of a volatile situation.

I think you will find that there are a lot of opportunists out there in places like Din Daeng and Bon Kai. Typically, people who tend to be anti-establishment, want a bit of excitement and can physically vent their hate of authority will be out there. Mostly late teens early twenties. If you look at the faces of the people in all the clips floating around the vast majority appear to be in that age group. I would also guess that the vast majority of those fighting in the said two places are not from the provinces either.

[BKjohn]

Well that have about half an hour to get out of there... Yawn

Get out the candles to light in memory of the innocent women and children about to die.

Well I know that some were evacuated... and that an airplane has been dropping leaflets over the site. I hope the Red leaders know what's coming and get any others left there out.

If Thaksin was in power and the situation was the other way, machine gun fire would have been heard weeks ago and any mob been eradicated, never mind women and children, just like he did during so called war on drugs

[KhunVee]

Well that have about half an hour to get out of there... Yawn

Get out the candles to light in memory of the innocent women and children about to die.

There is no reason for them to die.

When the army moves in they can simply obey the law and surrender peacefully to their arrest.

But will they do that?

Also read this:

QUOTE (timekeeper @ 2010-05-17 12:07:17) THANONG:Nation 17 05 2010

The purpose of this post is to quickly impart law-based information to inquiries perplexing some Thais and non-Thais. I reckon this is in the interest of the State and national reconciliation. If possible, please disseminate the information to all across the land.

This is also to remind all Thais (and non-Thais living in Thailand) of our duty to be familiar with our own law. Ignorance is not an excuse. Self-imposed illiteracy is vice, particularly when the nation is under crisis.

NOTE: This post is not contending whether the prescribed law is right or wrong. The data presented are not avowing whether the current law is just or unjust. This is simply to brief Thais and non-Thais to the reality of our Thai law as it presently is.

QUESTION: Can the government freeze bank accounts of anyone residing within Thai territory under Emergency Decree?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: Does the government have to first obtain permission from the court?

ANSWER: No. That is one arbitrary right of the government under the Emergency Decree. Declaration of Emergency implies that the government can exercise actions which do not need court authorization as long as the actions are sanctioned by law.

Freezing back accounts of suspects the government deems as perpetrators of the national crisis is one arbitrary permit. The caveat is simply that there is sufficient reason to consider them as suspects assisting or perpetrating the crimes against the State.

QUESTION: If the government or security forces believe I am a perpetrator, can they also arrest me without a court-issued warrant?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: Do I not have any right to resist or defend myself?

ANSWER: No – at least not at that particular moment in time. Your only right – under that particular moment – is to surrender to the arrest. If you are placed under detention, you only right – under that particular moment – is to comply. You can file the appeals later with the court, if you consider the government or security forces behaved outside the confines of law under the Emergency Decree.

QUESTION: Can the security forces execute me if I resist?

ANSWER: That depends on the nature of your resistance:

If you use a non-penetrating weapon to fight the security forces (e.g., batons, clubs, sticks, nunchaks - or even empty hand strikes such as punching or kicking), the security forces can counter with a constraining force (i.e., beat you into submission or take you down using any mechanisms to accomplish this end - just short of actually killing you).

If you use a penetrating weapon (e.g, knife, spear, sword, guns or grenades), the security forces can counter with lethal force (kill you right on the spot).

QUESTION: What if I throw stones or use slingshots?

ANSWER: Objects based on propelled trajectories are commonly though loosely classified as penetrating weapons. Thus, throwing stones or using slingshots can legally be countered by the security forces with lethal (deadly) force.

QUESTION: What if I just fight empty-handed?

ANSWER: Two elements are generally considered with respect empty-hand resistance. One is the actual physical assault itself. The other is the “intent” of the empty-hand assault.

If the intent of the fist strike, elbow strike, knee strike, leg strike or even a head-butt is viewed as to “kill or severely injure” the security troops, the troops can counter with lethal force. If the strike is viewed as merely to detract the troops from advancing, then the troops are expected to just counter with constraining force.

QUESTION: Going strictly by the penal codes, can the security forces then execute me right on the spot if I just strike them with my fist or elbow or knee or leg or head butt - or even just throw stones or use slingshots at them?

ANSWER: If the security forces view your empty-hand strikes or stones or slingshots as with intent to “kill or severely injure”, then yes – they can constitutionally and legally kill you right on the spot during an Emergency Decree.

QUESTION: So what should a person do when the region is under Emergency Decree?

ANSWER: Do what the government and the security forces tell you. Avoid confrontation with them at all times. Stay out of their path. If they arrest you, do not resist. If they place you under detention, follow their dictates until you can subsequently file the appeal with the court.

In other words, understand the law and use common sense. This also means that – under Emergency Decree – it is stark stupidity to claim “But I did not use a gun or grenade or knife or sward or spear. I was only fighting with my bare hands or just throwing stones or using slingshots.” Illiterates of law commonly do that.

[lilkitty]

Why no water cannons? There is enough dirty water in the khlongs of Bangkok. Instead of bullets. It's what civilized countries do.

[lilkitty]

Obviously, the army has every right to shoot the armed fractions, but they have absolutely no excuse for shooting at women and children. Shame on them

The women and children have every oppotunity to get out of the trouble that the armed factions are causing.

They fact that many of them are staying basically means that they support what the armed factions are doing.

If they support them, then they need to live (or unfortunately, possibly die) with the consequences.

Do they really? A ThaiVisa news clipping said that none of the government buses that the government promised yesterday had shown up to pick up the women and children.

[neverdie]

"INSANE, father puts his baby on tyre barricade under expressway" /via @freakingcat

[earthpig]

I don't understand why so many trucks of supplies are being let in.

i posted the answer several times:bon kai/soi ruamrudee/sarasin intersection (actually thru the parking garage of the building on the corner)/ratchaP.

the army isnt blocking this route (as of last night), and the reds appear to have some of their most crack red guard units protecting soi ruamrudee. it is why i have opined that the battle for bon kai is the key to wider battle.

i might suggest anybody living there should be extremely wary if the army approaches of the reception it might get, because this supply line appears critical to Red Central.

[Who, me ?]

Obviously, the army has every right to shoot the armed fractions, but they have absolutely no excuse for shooting at women and children. Shame on them

Good afternoon, Red Parrot

[humfurry]

Why no water cannons? There is enough dirty water in the khlongs of Bangkok. Instead of bullets. It's what civilized countries do.

Ewwww Klong water.... I'd rather be shot!

[agord]

IMO, the Red Leaders are already looking for a way out.

Reading between the lines, they are already disassociating themselevs from all the fighting by stating that the protest is peaceful as everyone in the rally grounds are peaceful and unarmed and that they have nothing to do with the fighting and cannot control the people outside the rally grounds.

Talk about selling out the ppl doing the fighting and dying....all so they can get a "get out of jail free" card.

Any weakness now by the government and giving in to the reds will only open the doors for long term problems. Any group that feels they have a grievance with the government will come to Bangkok and start the same <deleted> considering they have nothing to fear

Only total unconditional surrender by the reds and their leaders can be acceptable at this point !

The choice is theirs and considering their speeches on record, who do they think believes in any good intentions on their part ???

Seconded. Wonder what the opinions would be on this board and how long a protest by a Muslim group from the three southern provinces would last in Bangkok? I don't thin the government needs to do anything right now but stick to their demands that all protestors return home and end the occupation. reds are on the ropes, running low on supplies and pretty much defeated and still many on this board think they are in some position to make demands like amnesty. Amnesty? that's a joke right?

[humfurry]

Obviously, the army has every right to shoot the armed fractions, but they have absolutely no excuse for shooting at women and children. Shame on them

The women and children have every oppotunity to get out of the trouble that the armed factions are causing.

They fact that many of them are staying basically means that they support what the armed factions are doing.

If they support them, then they need to live (or unfortunately, possibly die) with the consequences.

Do they really? A ThaiVisa news clipping said that none of the government buses that the government promised yesterday had shown up to pick up the women and children.

They were moved to a temple in the area.

[whybother]

Obviously, the army has every right to shoot the armed fractions, but they have absolutely no excuse for shooting at women and children. Shame on them

The women and children have every oppotunity to get out of the trouble that the armed factions are causing.

They fact that many of them are staying basically means that they support what the armed factions are doing.

If they support them, then they need to live (or unfortunately, possibly die) with the consequences.

Do they really? A ThaiVisa news clipping said that none of the government buses that the government promised yesterday had shown up to pick up the women and children.

Really? Can you give me a link to that please?

[earthpig]

You're assuming that Seh Daeng was shot by a Gov't ordered sniper.

no im not. in fact im on record as posting within hours of his being shot that in my view the sniper, who ever he is, was not acting on orders sanctioned by the civilian authorities. abhisit is too smart for that.

regretably, abhisit was not seasoned enough to seize the moment bravely and grant a general amnesty. accordingly, the sniper took control of events away from abhisit, and may well destroy his political career.

i dont hope for this; i fear it.

in times of extreme national emergency, the trick to political leadership is to remain in control of events. abhisit's youth was his greatest enemy.