Ownerchange - But Previous Owner Died

[vel_tins]

Some days before I tried to change Owners name from my motorbike.

At the Land Transport office, the gave me a paper and told me, that the previous

Owner has to sign.

But the previous Owner (a Lady) is dead. I bought the bike from her Husband (Farang).

Anything I can do?

Or leave anything as it is?

[gotlost]

Nothing . SOL.

[SamuiHomemadeFood]

If you have the book then just keep taxing and insuring it and you will be OK. The owner can't exactly come and take it back. Without the owners signature and copy of ID card you cannot change the book into your name.

[vel_tins]

Without the owners signature and copy of ID card you cannot change the book into your name.

I have a copy of her ID Card, but no signature.

Maybe "somebody" can sign the paper.

Or is it to risky?

[LivinLOS]

Sadly I had to deal with this..

Your in a nightmare limbo land.. shes dead, thats recorded on the Thai system of ID cards and amphur registration.. The vehicle now belongs to her next of kin.. If you were her parent or child you would get it fairly easily with the death cert and ID card.. However a farang husband doesnt seem to qualify as next of kin, they tried to give my car to her mother, luckily for me the family were being OK at that point and they signed it direct over to me.

Basically the bike is now worth very little.. Same as so many other situations where a bike gets stuck in someones name in this poorly designed system. You can keep renewing the tax, but you will never legally own it (without court cases, a judge assigning it to the husband, the husband signing it to you, etc).

[vel_tins]

I think, this bike is not worth the hassle with judge, certificate of death etc...

Its now nearly 4 years old.

I will renew tax and insurance and drive it as long as it works.

Edited May 29, 2010 by vel_tins

[JohnLeech]

Sadly I had to deal with this..

Your in a nightmare limbo land.. shes dead, thats recorded on the Thai system of ID cards and amphur registration.. The vehicle now belongs to her next of kin.. If you were her parent or child you would get it fairly easily with the death cert and ID card.. However a farang husband doesnt seem to qualify as next of kin, they tried to give my car to her mother, luckily for me the family were being OK at that point and they signed it direct over to me.

Basically the bike is now worth very little.. Same as so many other situations where a bike gets stuck in someones name in this poorly designed system. You can keep renewing the tax, but you will never legally own it (without court cases, a judge assigning it to the husband, the husband signing it to you, etc).

Sorry, but this is simply not correct. A farang husband with a legally registered marriage is the next-of-kin and is legally entitled to the same rights of inheritance as next-of-kin as a Thai husband (except, obviously, for land) if the wife dies intestate (without making a will). If the wife has left a will, then obviously the will applies instead. In either case the husband or the executor of the will has to get the will (or his right of inheritance without a will) approved by the local court - much the same as the system of probate in most Western countries and very straightforward after suffiient time has been allowed for anyone to file a case contesting it (usually two months), and certainly not a "poorly designed system". The problems start either when the marriage has not been properly registered, there is no will, or the husband fails to apply for authority from the court - just as they would elsewhere in the world.

Once the court has given its approval then the executor has full authority to dispose of the property as laid down in the will (or, without a will, as he sees fit). To change ownership of the motorbike, for example, instead of signed copies of her ID card and house papers you would need signed copies of the executor's papers and a copy of the court ruling. Simple - unless the bike was not her husband's to sell.

As SHF said, as long as you have the book you can keep on taxing and insuring it but there is still an owner, so make sure you are covered and at least have some sort of sales document from the husband as otherwise not only could the legal owner "come and take it back" but, in a worst case scenario, you could find yourself being charged with theft. Unlikely, granted, but possible.

[LivinLOS]

Sadly I had to deal with this..

Your in a nightmare limbo land.. shes dead, thats recorded on the Thai system of ID cards and amphur registration.. The vehicle now belongs to her next of kin.. If you were her parent or child you would get it fairly easily with the death cert and ID card.. However a farang husband doesnt seem to qualify as next of kin, they tried to give my car to her mother, luckily for me the family were being OK at that point and they signed it direct over to me.

Basically the bike is now worth very little.. Same as so many other situations where a bike gets stuck in someones name in this poorly designed system. You can keep renewing the tax, but you will never legally own it (without court cases, a judge assigning it to the husband, the husband signing it to you, etc).

Sorry, but this is simply not correct. A farang husband with a legally registered marriage is the next-of-kin and is legally entitled to the same rights of inheritance as next-of-kin as a Thai husband (except, obviously, for land) if the wife dies intestate (without making a will). If the wife has left a will, then obviously the will applies instead. In either case the husband or the executor of the will has to get the will (or his right of inheritance without a will) approved by the local court - much the same as the system of probate in most Western countries and very straightforward after suffiient time has been allowed for anyone to file a case contesting it (usually two months), and certainly not a "poorly designed system". The problems start either when the marriage has not been properly registered, there is no will, or the husband fails to apply for authority from the court - just as they would elsewhere in the world.

Yes my marriage was one where there were lots of things not covered, correct wills and the like, and hence the above was exactly how it was.. A good reminder to the less organised out there. But even then, it would have taken, as you say, court cases and judges, where her mum just walked into the land transport office with the death cert and they signed it over in 5 mins, they would not do that to me despite us being married.

My comment with a 'poorly designed system' is that the Thai ownership system is one where bikes are constantly stuck in limbo, I have lost count of the amount of times I have seen bikes where the book is in someone's name and cannot be legally changed, where the farang has left the country (how does this 'well designed' system handle an absentee farang sale in that case ??) where visa stamps have expired, where the office lost reg books, where the office forget to move vital (tax) info over from one book to another, where current owners are getting charged for excise tax unpaid by initial registrants from years ago, where credit was paid off by one person (usually farang) on a credit debt from thai womans name whose left him years before, etc etc etc..

I maintain.. the system is full of more holes than swiss cheese.. Its a joke full of constant surprises and fees and fines. "Ohh cannot.. mod-i-fy" is the usual howl from my local DMV over issues as tiny as LED indicators or LED brake lights. While Thais ride round on unregistered bikes and home made death traps. Sensible systems ?? yeah right !!

[JohnLeech]

........My comment with a 'poorly designed system' is that the Thai ownership system is one where bikes are constantly stuck in limbo, I have lost count of the amount of times I have seen bikes where the book is in someone's name and cannot be legally changed, where the farang has left the country (how does this 'well designed' system handle an absentee farang sale in that case ??) ............

.............. Its a joke full of constant surprises and fees and fines. "Ohh cannot.. mod-i-fy" is the usual howl from my local DMV over issues as tiny as LED indicators or LED brake lights. While Thais ride round on unregistered bikes and home made death traps. Sensible systems ?? yeah right !!

I'm not saying the system's perfect by any means, but I doubt if most (or any) Western countries have any better solution to an "absentee" sale by a tourist who has long since disappeared.

And its not just Thais who "ride round on unregistered bikes and home made death traps"; the law is pretty clear - cannot mod-i-fy - and the number of bikes (and, more recently, cars) pulled over and confiscated bear testimony to it being enforced to at least some extent for anything from headers to lights. Most Thais have enough sense to either take off and replace modifications on their bikes or to go to a "friendly" test station when it comes to time for the annual road test, while many farangs (for whatever reason) don't.

[LivinLOS]

Well I have bought and sold cars all over Europe, the UK, and the USA... I have never encountered a system riddled with so many reasons that cause a vehicle to be blocked and stuck in some past owners name.. In the UK the owner signs the back of the registration and hands the car and paper to the new owner.. Job done. No visa, no residence papers, no vehicle test, its system of controls happen independent of ownership. Vehicle road tests, taxes etc are independent (but related) to the simple ownership transfer not some kafkaesque paper mountain employing 100's where purely stupid circular things are done to waste time (to get my new drivers license I had to have a residence paper, to get my residence paper I had to prove my address, to prove my address I used my drivers license, which got me the paper I needed to take back to the DMV issue me a new driving license !!). These kind of paper games are a 3rd world trait and need to be reformed into a more efficient system without all the holes and flaws, its not even hard to imagine how. They exist right through many Thai institutions and if you cant see that they are poorly thought out, designed, and implemented, then I would argue you have been here too long.

As to mod-i-fy rules.. They are being used purely as a money making process for graft.. Theres no reason why LED indicators are a problem.. I have upgraded my lights with projectors, far brighter and clearer, hence they will make problems if I try to sell it. There should be a standardised road test for if things work, are too loud, etc not just some arbitrary judgement of 'standard' performed by the untrained clerk at the DMV based purely on visual appearance and not on actually if it works or not to a spec.

[VocalNeal]

Leave well enough alone.

I have done this (with a live owner) and it is nothing but hassle. Take bike to LTO for mechanical checks etc.

As has been said just keep paying all the bill's. It only matters if you want to take the bike out of the country or if you sell it and prospective owner doesn't understand.

[powderpuff]

Most Thais have enough sense to either take off and replace modifications on their bikes or to go to a "friendly" test station when it comes to time for the annual road test, while many farangs (for whatever reason) don't.

Respectfully Sir you don't know what you are talking about.

When it comes time to change the name in the green book the vehicle gets inspected at the Land Transport office.

I don't think they are taking bribes although I might be wrong.

Livin LOS lives in the police state of Phuket where they are 50 times meaner than anywhere else.

[LivinLOS]

Yeap.. Phuket.. Where I needed a Thai DMV contact to negotiate it down to 3500 bribe just to legally change an engine (all papers in order and import taxes paid) cos the bike was mod-i-fy..

Still havent changed the paint color in the book.. That will be another few 1000 in bribes !!

Phuket DMV.. Sigh..