Difficult Times In Chiang Mai

[twofortheroad]

Following the demonstrations in Bangkok and the broadcasting of the events world-wide, Chiang Mai is almost devoid of  tourists. Hotels are practically empty, the Night Bazaar, bars and restaurants are deserted and many locals are suffering.  I've heard tales of hotels possibly closing for a month and staff being laid off or offered a reduced salary.

Under these circumstances, I'm sure there are plenty of people wondering how they can help. Here's the answer, and it is relevant to one of the other topics raised on this forum.

Pay more.

As some people here are aware, some richer, kinder Thais pay more for goods and services than poorer Thais, as this is part of their way of helping those less fortunate. Therefore, maybe now is the time for some of us to be a bit less fanatic in haggling away the last few baht of profit when shopping and to be a bit more generous in our tips when we eat or drink out. The traders are certainly going to have to sell at any price just to get some sort of profit, so their mark-ups are going to be very low, but we can show some kindness by being a bit more generous and not bargaining as much.  Also, for many in the bar/restaurant business, tips are a significant part of their income, so leaving a larger tip will surely be helping them out now that they have fewer customers. Give it a try,  I'm sure it will be appreciated, and it will make you feel good.

[Fishenough]

Makes sense.

The change noticeable in other ways besides a lack in tourists, there is a recent change in attitude to Farang. In the last week we (spouse, teen and I) have noticed a shift in attitude towards us in the retail environments close to the town center. At first I disagreed with friends telling me of this observation, but shopping errands today left me agreement. I was ignored at a gas pump; attendants watched but did come over to the pump I stopped at, yet did so 30 seconds later when someone stopped at the pump opposite and further from me - and them. In three of the four stores I shopped at I was pushed in front of by other customers and was then only customer in the time I was there that did not receive a greeting. Weird. I was polite and friendly in all incidents, but this was quite different than a normal shopping experience in CM. Yes I know that at any counter, in many places of the world, you have to be quick on the draw with your purchases.

Edit - this shift in attitude due to recent events in only noticeable in the center of the city, out lying areas and surrounding country side feel as friendly as ever.

So I concur with Twofortheroad, how we behave and act as consumers will have an impact on everyones experience and attitudes.

Edited June 8, 2010 by Fishenough

[wehugheog]

NOW I (my THB) am/is appreciated? Before I was just an ATM. I totally disagree with the OP.

[Lizard2010]

Maybe the Thais look at Farangs as the root of all evil.

They probably blame them for all the problems.

The people in Thailand do not understand what happens in the rest of the world.

Thailand is the savior.

[sarahsbloke]

Now is the time to stop accepting rudeness from staff.

If the shop doesn't want your custom, walk out.

[twofortheroad]

Maybe the Thais look at Farangs as the root of all evil.

They probably blame them for all the problems.

The people in Thailand do not understand what happens in the rest of the world.

Thailand is the savior.

Did you post that in the wrong place, or are did you just decide to air some random thoughts? 

[Loaded]

Chiang Mai may be a lot quieter than the last few years but it's still a lot busier than when I arrived. Despite this there are farangs everywhere here. I can't move without bumping in to one.

My ideas of charity don't extend to donating to businesses when their profits are down.

[ducksonspeed]

No I do not think the Thais have changed. They are not ready yet. They are all far more interested in blaming every one else. The kid that burnt down the school will blame the teachers. It is a Thais right to take white man money.

If you look at the article in the Bangkok post it is daming of the current teachers and directors of schools as all have had to complete a test that was the same as a students test of the level they teach. The average mark was 58%.

The country has taken on an attitude that can only be described as odd. It does not practise what it portrays. It has its own identity based on minimal understanding of what it educates.

It is not for us farlang to change that but to assimilate or leave. As we all the tourist it looks as though leaving is the best option. Just dont know what to do about the wife and the Kids (my dogs).I love them so.

[invex]

Haha, good try.

Pls go to this link: Bt16.8 Billion To Help Thai Tourism Operators - Thailand Forum

This money will go, via well know channels, to the owners of the affected businesses. Many times those people / family are the same. This is the third payout time in about 2 years.

Believe me, rich Thai hotel and other holiday related businesses- owners will get enough money to even make a huge profit. That's why you never see those things going bankrupt, even empty for a long time.

Why you not propose those business-owners to raise the wages of the staff in difficult times? They will roll over the (expensive) carpet from laughing.

TIT

[mamborobert]

Could not disagree with OP more.

What happens when (if) things get back to "normal". Revert to tipping and subsequent angry faces over tight farangs?

There are a lot of farang businesses doing it very tight now, but you do not see any rent reduction from Thai landowners. Same for expats on pension (with reduced exchange rate), there is a flood of places on the market but no overt signs of rent reductions. When there is a reduction Thais are looking at avery short lease to farangs to cover their bets when or if things improve. Its not only Chiang Mai that is suffering, and not only Thais.

Generosity (even of spirit) is a two way street and it seems all one way at the moment.

I don't think there will be any thanks or even recognition for your efforts (sadly) as all that will happen IMHO is reinforcement of the walking farang ATM mentality.

There is also the very real prospect that things will not improve, you have Thai election to look forward to and the world economy is by no means secure (and this was a problem for tourism numbers way before the red shirt fracas). The Op's solution is at best a short term fix for what may well be a long term problem. Whilst I sincerely believe that OP is well meaning, the Thai government needs to do something longer term to ensure less labour reliance on tourism for its own people.

[twofortheroad]

No I do not think the Thais have changed. They are not ready yet. They are all far more interested in blaming every one else. The kid that burnt down the school will blame the teachers. It is a Thais right to take white man money.

If you look at the article in the Bangkok post it is daming of the current teachers and directors of schools as all have had to complete a test that was the same as a students test of the level they teach. The average mark was 58%.

The country has taken on an attitude that can only be described as odd. It does not practise what it portrays. It has its own identity based on minimal understanding of what it educates.

It is not for us farlang to change that but to assimilate or leave. As we all the tourist it looks as though leaving is the best option. Just dont know what to do about the wife and the Kids (my dogs).I love them so.

Goodbye cruel world.......

This topic has very quickly become quite bizarre. It's gone from a simple suggestion to be a bit more generous to "Farangs are the root of all evil" and "leaving Thailand is the best option", all within the matter of 7 or 8 posts. Excellent.

I wasn't directing my suggestion at multi-national organisations it was aimed at the small independent market traders and low-paid workers in the hospitality business. People who will struggle to pay their rents or find the money for school fees. Rather than show any empathy, most of the replies have shown disdain for the Thais. Par for the course, I suppose. Anyway, it was just a suggestion.

Edited June 8, 2010 by twofortheroad

[gotlost]

The strong shall survie and the weak shall go by by.

[twofortheroad]

Could not disagree with OP more.

What happens when (if) things get back to "normal".  Revert to  tipping and subsequent angry faces over tight farangs?

There are a lot of farang businesses doing it very tight now, but you do not see any rent reduction from Thai landowners.  Same for expats on pension (with reduced exchange rate), there is a flood of places on the market but no overt signs of rent reductions.  When there is a reduction Thais are looking at avery short lease to farangs to cover their bets when or if things improve.  Its not only Chiang Mai that is suffering, and not only Thais.

Generosity (even of spirit) is a two way street and it seems all one way at the moment.

I don't think there will be any thanks or even recognition for your efforts (sadly) as all that will happen IMHO is reinforcement of the walking farang ATM mentality.

There is also the very real prospect that things will not improve, you have Thai election to look forward to and the world economy is by no means secure (and this was a problem for tourism numbers way before the red shirt fracas).  The Op's solution is at best a short term fix for what may well be a long term problem.  Whilst I sincerely believe that OP is well meaning, the Thai government needs to do something longer term to ensure less labour reliance on tourism for its own people.

I generally tip people who I believe are poorly paid and do see the thanks and recognition. I don't haggle as much if I can see that a market trader is having a very slow day and I'm sure they appreciate it. This is dealing with people at the low end of the economy. The fact that the fat cats are still fat and mean isn't a reason for me to stop being generous to those in need. 

BTW, tourism accounts for 5 or 6 per cent of the Thai economy as a whole , but is obviously much higher in tourist towns, so Thailand isn't as dependent on tourism as some people believe. That is why the Thai baht is still realtively strong - the economy as a whole is doing well, with exports leading the way.

[Drew Aitch]

I know the tourist industry has been hit hard, and so will be those related business that support it. But political unrest aside, the whole world has just gone through its worst economic crisis in living memory for most people.

Amid it all, I have never seen so much money put into new construction projects as I have in Chiang Mai of late, and this has all been going on during the global crisis, not before it, or just recently, but right through the worst 2 years of the crunch that has seen far more stable countries than Thailand fall a lot harder!

It's also worth pointing out that many expats here are probably also experiencing less disposable income than previous years if they are transferring their national currencies over on a regular basis. Not least because the Thai Baht has been incredibly strong, and continues to be, despite everything that's been going on over here.

Anyone doing business, any kind of business, always run the risk of going under due to economic & natural forces beyond their control. Another reason for failure is a change in trends, and some business owners just don't have the ability to adapt to this ever changing world of commerce. That's just the nature of business I'm afraid.

So on that note, I agree with Khun Loaded. There are far better options to show charity towards than entrepreneurs down on their luck. If they're any good at what they do, then they'll be back to fight another day, and most likely will come back fitter and stronger than ever. Remember, in this life there can be no success without failure!

Heck, I wish someone would have passed the collection tin around when I lost a shed load of money during these past 2 years But it's my guess that even a suggestion of such an idea would have resulted in something like 'Sod off beggar!' or stronger

Your post is kind and thoughtful twofortheroad, but probably a bit daft as a practical idea. In any case, handouts (in whatever guise they come in), don't solve any problems in the long term and can actually have a downside if gone on for too long.

As the Chinese proverb says, 'Feed a man a fish, and you feed him for a day'. Teach a man to fish, and you feed him for life'.

Experiencing a little failure and struggle through life, is what makes people and societies stronger and more successful, so let the world (not just the Thais), endure a little suffering so that they can build a better future by learning from their current anguish.

Aitch

Edited June 8, 2010 by Drew Aitch

[mamborobert]

I generally tip people who I believe are poorly paid and do see the thanks and recognition. I don't haggle as much if I can see that a market trader is having a very slow day and I'm sure they appreciate it. This is dealing with people at the low end of the economy. The fact that the fat cats are still fat and mean isn't a reason for me to stop being generous to those in need. 

BTW, tourism accounts for 5 or 6 per cent of the Thai economy as a whole , but is obviously much higher in tourist towns, so Thailand isn't as dependent on tourism as some people believe. That is why the Thai baht is still realtively strong - the economy as a whole is doing well, with exports leading the way.

Ditto here on all counts only thing I would add is that the 6% contribution to the economy is not the issue. It is the disproportionate amount of people employed to get that 6 %. The Thai economy is not dependant on Tourism, the Thai labour market is very mush so, and therefore extended family networks as well. Tourism does not (as you have rightly pointed out) play a big part in the Thai economy but directly and indirectly it keeps a lot of people fed and housed There is a significant portion (much higher that 6 %) of people employe, housed and fed. What needs to happen is a reduction on dependance of tourism by your average Thai. The government must look at a much more sustainable and consistent tourism market or better ways to ensure the welfare of a great chunk of the populus.

[witold]

This is the dumbest suggestion I have heard in a while.

A seasonal business that can not survive a few months of lull is not much of a business. They *should* close. When things are right, different operators with start new businesses or old operators will reopen. It's an equilibrium. If there is no demand, it's silly to subsidize something that is not needed.

[twofortheroad]

This is the dumbest suggestion I have heard in a while.

A seasonal business that can not survive a few months of lull is not much of a business.  They *should* close.  When things are right, different operators with start new businesses or old operators will reopen.  It's an equilibrium.  If there is no demand, it's silly to subsidize something that is not needed.

The fall in trade is not just seasonal. It is because of the events in Bangkok and just like the Bali Bombs, it will take a long while for business to pick up. I'm not talking about subsidising peoples business, I'm talking about not screwing the last baht of profit out of a small trader that is struggling to pay their rent, and tipping the nice kids that are paid a pittance in small restaurants, who can not make ends meet due to lower tips. The town is way down on tourist arrivals - as much as 50% at a guess. It is traditionally still the low-season, but it is more like a no-season. I'm just suggesting people be a bit more generous. It's not the answer to all the woes but if it gives a little bit of relief to someone, that's not so dumb. It might even make you feel good. 

[BigWheelMan]

Following the demonstrations in Bangkok and the broadcasting of the events world-wide, Chiang Mai is almost devoid of  tourists. Hotels are practically empty, the Night Bazaar, bars and restaurants are deserted and many locals are suffering.  I've heard tales of hotels possibly closing for a month and staff being laid off or offered a reduced salary.

Under these circumstances, I'm sure there are plenty of people wondering how they can help. Here's the answer, and it is relevant to one of the other topics raised on this forum.

Pay more.

As some people here are aware, some richer, kinder Thais pay more for goods and services than poorer Thais, as this is part of their way of helping those less fortunate. Therefore, maybe now is the time for some of us to be a bit less fanatic in haggling away the last few baht of profit when shopping and to be a bit more generous in our tips when we eat or drink out. The traders are certainly going to have to sell at any price just to get some sort of profit, so their mark-ups are going to be very low, but we can show some kindness by being a bit more generous and not bargaining as much.  Also, for many in the bar/restaurant business, tips are a significant part of their income, so leaving a larger tip will surely be helping them out now that they have fewer customers. Give it a try,  I'm sure it will be appreciated, and it will make you feel good.

Are you for real?

If we all begin to voluntary pay more and give over generous tips in restaurants and for other services, this would be an indication for businesses to increase their prices and staff to expect large tips from Farangs for whom they already believe have Dollars passing out of their backsides and money trees growing in their gardens.

Plus this puts extra pressure on ex-pats that are living here on tighter and tighter budgets.

Once started as a good will gesture, this attitude would become standard practice even if and when the economy improves again. There is already enough duel pricing going on here as it is, your suggestion would send out the message that it`s OK to charge Farangs more and acceptable for Thais and Farangs.

I would go the other route and take full advantage of the situation. At these times everyone is suffering from the world economic crisis.

If a Thai becomes poor, they have the options of either begging or finding work. If I become poor and have no money in Thailand, than the police will come, take me away and I’ll be deported. Do you think the Thai authorities would take into consideration my kindness and good will during my deportation hearing?

[cmsally]

Now is the time to support the businesses that consistently give good service and make the extra effort.

I'd rather the good quality businesses survive, even if they are a bit more expensive. That can apply the whole spectrum of things even street food where they use a bit better ingredients, are friendly, whatever.

Basically if you like a business and the service they provide and want to see it continue, now is probably the time to support it.

For the link as to "help" for the tourist sector. This help all comes in the form of loans. All has to be paid back with interest.

Looks like the government/banks will be making a profit from their generosity.

Maybe we should take a leaf out of their book and get into the money lending business.

[twofortheroad]

Are you for real?

Apparently. I'm sure you are too.

[Bakuteh]

Another practical suggestion would be to sell Chiang Mai to all your friends, family and acquaintances overseas and encourage them to visit CM and Thailand. Making this effort will alleviate the lack of income faced by our Thai friends and residents. What better time for the tourists to arrive with lower prices and friendly service, notwithstanding the wet weather.

Being helpful and compassionate is definitely better than being mean and bitter. Sawadee karp.

Following the demonstrations in Bangkok and the broadcasting of the events world-wide, Chiang Mai is almost devoid of  tourists. Hotels are practically empty, the Night Bazaar, bars and restaurants are deserted and many locals are suffering.  I've heard tales of hotels possibly closing for a month and staff being laid off or offered a reduced salary.

Under these circumstances, I'm sure there are plenty of people wondering how they can help. Here's the answer, and it is relevant to one of the other topics raised on this forum.

Pay more.

As some people here are aware, some richer, kinder Thais pay more for goods and services than poorer Thais, as this is part of their way of helping those less fortunate. Therefore, maybe now is the time for some of us to be a bit less fanatic in haggling away the last few baht of profit when shopping and to be a bit more generous in our tips when we eat or drink out. The traders are certainly going to have to sell at any price just to get some sort of profit, so their mark-ups are going to be very low, but we can show some kindness by being a bit more generous and not bargaining as much.  Also, for many in the bar/restaurant business, tips are a significant part of their income, so leaving a larger tip will surely be helping them out now that they have fewer customers. Give it a try,  I'm sure it will be appreciated, and it will make you feel good.

Edited June 8, 2010 by Bakuteh

[BigWheelMan]

Another practical suggestion would be to sell Chiang Mai to all your friends, family and acquaintances overseas and encourage them to visit CM and Thailand. Making this effort will alleviate the lack of income faced by our Thai friends and residents. What better time for the tourists to arrive with lower prices and friendly service, notwithstanding the wet weather.

Being helpful and compassionate is definitely better than being mean and bitter. Sawadee karp.

If our attempts to sell Chiang Mai by word of mouth to all our friends, family and acquaintances overseas were successful and they visited here in their droves, than both the Thai and Farang business owners would hype up prices again believing that they should cash in on the bounty of fresh tourists and increased customers.

It`s a catch 22 no win situation.

I`m making the most of it, these are good times for me.

[scorecard]

Maybe the Thais look at Farangs as the root of all evil.

They probably blame them for all the problems.

The people in Thailand do not understand what happens in the rest of the world.

Thailand is the savior.

Did you post that in the wrong place, or are did you just decide to air some random thoughts? 

Agree, silly, unnecessary generalization with very little foundation. Doesn't help.

[kudroz]

I rarely tip in Thailand. I have only done so in rare occasions when at some fancy place with service that commanded it. If there are less tourist in Thailand it's because their not-so-distant primitive roots caught up to them and behaved, I'm sorry to say, like hillbillies for a few years now. They quite deserve the drop in tourism. If they want to attract tourists, they will have to show more civilized ways. Rewarding their non-sense would be insidious. They need to struggle to learn - not be nurtured.

Your sympathy for those struggling is admirable. I understand you're looking at the individual level: the struggling employee who can't meet ends. But I don't see it that way.

[Rasseru]

I like your idea, twofortheroad. Thanks for posting it.

[NancyL]

My goodness, what a bunch of mean-spirited people! Here in Chiang Mai, long-term expat residents benefit from the "infrastructure" created by the tourist trade. Do you think we'd have two fairly nice shopping malls, golf courses, western movie theaters and hoards of restaurants if it weren't for the tourist trade?

OK -- if you can't or don't want to pay more, then follow the suggestions to patronize businesses you like and talk up Thailand to your acquaintences in your home country. Yeah, yeah that will bring more tourists but isn't that the point? Do you think all the businesses we like will last long-term with only the business of long-term expat residents?

Lately, I've made it a point to "be nice" to the tourists, especially the family groups. I talked with one New Zealand family today on the free shuttle from the hotels to Airport Plaza and they said everyone they knew told them to cancel their Thailand vacation and the kids are still getting texts from friends asking if they've seen anyone get killed yet. I've approached tourists looking at a map, offering to lead them where they were going and giving advice about activities or businesses they should consider. None of this cost any money and most of people seem very happy to talk with an English-speaking long-term resident.

[jackr]

Chiang Mai may be a lot quieter than the last few years but it's still a lot busier than when I arrived. Despite this there are farangs everywhere here. I can't move without bumping in to one.

My ideas of charity don't extend to donating to businesses when their profits are down.

Op either has head in clouds or is perhaps on a power trip. In any case, was in town the other night - Moon Muang/Anusarn Market - and seemed business as usual.

[Insight]

Can't LCM51 chip in a bit? Don't want to point fingers or anything....

[sarahsbloke]

My goodness, what a bunch of mean-spirited people! Here in Chiang Mai, long-term expat residents benefit from the "infrastructure" created by the tourist trade. Do you think we'd have two fairly nice shopping malls, golf courses, western movie theaters and hoards of restaurants if it weren't for the tourist trade?

Gat Suan Gairw is a Thai shopping plaza, nothing to do with tourists, the English language in the movie theatres is not there for tourists.

I rarely goto restaurants that foreigners frequent.

In fact I can't think of any place in CM that I frequent which wouldn't be better without tourists.

Sorry Nancy, I think the way to go is learn Thai and goto Thai places .........

It seems to me you are still a tourist (even if long-term).

[cmsally]

Actually it really has a knock on/trickle down effect.

Even if frequenting the Thai only places, if you chat to the owners, they also suffer when tourism is down.

A lot of their clientele are dependent on the tourist trade. It makes sense that if hotel owners/drivers/guides/market stall people etc etc are losing income then they have less to spend also. So it really is a worse scenario than just the tourism places with actual tourists in them being affected.