Thailand's Red-Shirts Planning Revenge

[mazeltov]

Check the front cover of the magazine highlighted on 2Bangkok.com today. Extremely provocative and as far from reconciliatory as you can get IMO.

you mean the front cover with a cartoon where somebody is chained to a bed? nothing to worry, a world-wide international standard and practice according to some ultra right-wing extremists.

Edited June 22, 2010 by mazeltov

[mazeltov]

Two Wrongs Don't Make A Right.

Wanna discuss another issue and violation of international law under UN Convention?

Basic Principles on the Use of Force and Firearms by Law Enforcement Officials

9. Law enforcement officials shall not use firearms against persons except in self-defence or defence of others against the imminent threat of death or serious injury, to prevent the perpetration of a particularly serious crime involving grave threat to life, to arrest a person presenting such a danger and resisting their authority, or to prevent his or her escape, and only when less extreme means are insufficient to achieve these objectives. In any event, intentional lethal use of firearms may only be made when strictly unavoidable in order to protect life.

...

Basic Principles on the Use of Force and Firearms by Law Enforcement Officials

I read this the other way. Especially when you read the entire "Special Provisions" section. What the government did was totally in line with this provision and the following "Policing Unlawful Assemblies" section.

The first sentence of #9 clearly gives them the right to use firearms. How many army and civilians either died or were wounded in previous attacks by the reds? The precedent was set. Protection of the army, police and civilians was needed. Easy. Thanks, now we know they did this according to international standards! :jap:

:facedesk:

well, the human right lawyers, international press, European politicians see it in a very different way and condemn the action of the Thai government.

some ultra right-wing fanatics, political extremist, Nazi hippies and haters who don't care about human rights of others may applaud it.

That is even far away from the Thai government version of the events. The Thai government itself ("wisely") never admit and more or less denies that incidents like the 'use of firearms' described in the case above ever happened. because the government isn't totally stupid and knows that it would clearly not according to international standard.

[Insight]

Check the front cover of the magazine highlighted on 2Bangkok.com today. Extremely provocative and as far from reconciliatory as you can get IMO.

you mean the front cover with a cartoon where somebody is chained to a bed? nothing to worry, a world-wide international standard and practice according to some ultra right-wing extremists.

You missed out the part of being raped.

Highly inflammatory and further proof (if more was needed) that peace is the last thing on the mind of the reds.

[Ulysses G.]

you mean the front cover with a cartoon where somebody is chained to a bed? nothing to worry, a world-wide international standard and practice according to some ultra right-wing extremists.

Actually, most of the government supporters on Thai Visa are extremely left wing. I think that I am the only right-wing "extremist".

[craigt3365]

Two Wrongs Don't Make A Right.

Wanna discuss another issue and violation of international law under UN Convention?

Basic Principles on the Use of Force and Firearms by Law Enforcement Officials

9. Law enforcement officials shall not use firearms against persons except in self-defence or defence of others against the imminent threat of death or serious injury, to prevent the perpetration of a particularly serious crime involving grave threat to life, to arrest a person presenting such a danger and resisting their authority, or to prevent his or her escape, and only when less extreme means are insufficient to achieve these objectives. In any event, intentional lethal use of firearms may only be made when strictly unavoidable in order to protect life.

...

Basic Principles on the Use of Force and Firearms by Law Enforcement Officials

I read this the other way. Especially when you read the entire "Special Provisions" section. What the government did was totally in line with this provision and the following "Policing Unlawful Assemblies" section.

The first sentence of #9 clearly gives them the right to use firearms. How many army and civilians either died or were wounded in previous attacks by the reds? The precedent was set. Protection of the army, police and civilians was needed. Easy. Thanks, now we know they did this according to international standards! :jap:

:facedesk:

well, the human right lawyers, international press, European politicians see it in a very different way and condemn the action of the Thai government.

some ultra right-wing fanatics, political extremist, Nazi hippies and haters who don't care about human rights of others may applaud it.

That is even far away from the Thai government version of the events. The Thai government itself ("wisely") never admit and more or less denies that incidents like the 'use of firearms' described in the case above ever happened. because the government isn't totally stupid and knows that it would clearly not according to international standard.

You are right that some in the int'l press see it a very different way. GREAT! Freedom of press is fine, as long as it doesn't go too far. Though I did find the Danish cartoons funny!!!

We all know the government used force. It was on the news, on youtube.com, etc. Just because they don't admit it doesn't mean it didn't happen. Denial is happening on both sides, with the reds denying armed guards, black clad soldiers, and use of firearms. Neither side is really being truthful...

Just because we are critical of the reds, doesn't mean we don't agree with many of their principals. I can say most of us totally agree! We just don't agree with the violence. And I think most of us would agree that when the yellows closed down the airport, that was not totally proper either. Especially if you were one of those sleeping on the floor waiting for your flight!

[Jingthing]

No the majority of foreigners most certainly do NOT support the red shirt goal, violent or not, of returning Thaksin to power. The majority do of course believe in increased social justice and programs for poor people.

[animatic]

No the majority of foreigners most certainly do NOT support the red shirt goal, violent or not, of returning Thaksin to power. The majority do of course believe in increased social justice and programs for poor people.

Agreed. This is more a power play than a fight for democracy.

If it were actually a democracy Reds would not be blocking all other politicial discussion up north.

They don't dare because free and open discussion would derail their gravy train and power trip.

Most non-Thais want better conditions for ALL Thais, not just those aligned with on political block or another.

Edited June 22, 2010 by animatic

[TAWP]

Do you think it is hard to tell the difference between a shotgun wound and a rubber bullet wound?

Now, if you'd said: 'I think the "shotguns" were probably the rubber bullet guns provided ....' your post would be acceptable. But you cannot state something as a fact just because you want others to believe it to be true.

Actually, you can say what you want. But then people tend to ignore you.

I am not sure what you mean is wrong with his post.

Wound-patterns are VERY different between rubber-bullets and shotgun-pellets. They look no-where close to each-other.

[TAWP]

No the majority of foreigners most certainly do NOT support the red shirt goal, violent or not, of returning Thaksin to power. The majority do of course believe in increased social justice and programs for poor people.

No? No what?

And what majority of foreigners? The haters at this board? The international community of beer bar patrons in thailand? Or who?

This isn't about to support them or not. This is a question about their human rights.

So why other foreigners, like the dudes from the Asian Human Rights commission release different statements? They condemning the Abhisit government for human rights violations. same as Amnesty International did. And same as the

in a special session.

Human right don't depend on race, nationality, gender, sexual orientation and so on or if an internet partisan with the moniker Jingthing hate a group of protesters. Human rights are universal rights.

Astonishingly pathetic post, when he writes

No the majority of foreigners most certainly do NOT support the red shirt goal, violent or not, of returning Thaksin to power. The majority do of course believe in increased social justice and programs for poor people.

You even quoted it. And again you try to claim that peoples opposition has to do with hate and race, perhaps even racism... *sigh*

[craigt3365]

No the majority of foreigners most certainly do NOT support the red shirt goal, violent or not, of returning Thaksin to power. The majority do of course believe in increased social justice and programs for poor people.

My intention was to say the majority of foreigners support the goal of the reds for social equality...bringing Thaksin back would be horrible. Sorry... :jap:

Interesting article today about a large number of PT MPs asking for a change in leadership. Saying their leader should be a current MP, not one who is outside that circle. Could there be a bit of turmoil inside the red camp?????

[Sao Jiang Mai]

Interesting to see LevelHead and Mazaltov's rhetoric getting more and more agressive and frustrated. Calling other people horrible names and making assumptions about them simply because they do not agree with you is just childish and doesn't further your agenda. I am Thai and not an elite but I am very anti red movement, though as UG mentioned, not the social causes itself. I do not represent anyone but myself and my opinions are my own. Simply because I am anti Thaksin does not make me an elite, brainwashed by The Nation nor anti human rights or any such nonsense. Thailadn has had a long history of human rights abuse - as you well know, Thaksin himself was no saint in that matter - finger pointing can be done accross the board in this matter, and the Abhisit government has much to answer for too, but all must be done with DUE PROCESS. I think that it is good that people like UG can change their opinions...yet not deviate from their principals. try to be a bit flexible and see thigns in the shades of grey rather than in simple black and white. Not all anti Thaksin people are red haters and not all are out to screw the poor - jeez, this is so elementary!

On a personal note, I live in Chiang Mai and in my experience the reds are not gaining strength...it is quite the opposite. The red actions in BKK is seen as embarrassing and shameful to many.

[hideki]

a political assembly of more then 5 people would be a crime that allows the security forces to shot them down and arrest and chained the wounded like the the red shirts in this photo.

Two cases reported in the media in recent days were of Mr. Jaran Loiphun (age 39) and Mr. Nattapon Thongkhun (age 20), of Bangkok, both of whom were shot during the military crackdown on the Ratchaprasong protest.

Nattapon was reportedly shot three times in front of the Lumpini Police Station on 14 May 2010. According to Nattapon, around noon on 14 May he and his friends were driving motorbikes from Petchburi Road to meet friends at Sathorn Road. When they reached the area in front of Lumpini Police Station, a group of protestors were burning a police bus on Wireless Road. When soldiers shot into the group of protestors, a shotgun blast went into his shoulder, and an M16 bullet went into his hand. He tried to get up to ask for help, but another shotgun blast hit his left leg.

With no criticism of the AHRC letter, which seems properly written, let me mention the two cases they discuss.

It is clear from the letter that the army was dealing with protester instigated violence, which the army had been instructed to stop or prevent. In both cases the individuals were first shot with a shotgun. The "shotguns" were the rubber bullet guns provided to about 2/3 of the soldiers on that day

<snip>

Do you think it is hard to tell the difference between a shotgun wound and a rubber bullet wound?

Now, if you'd said: 'I think the "shotguns" were probably the rubber bullet guns provided ....' your post would be acceptable. But you cannot state something as a fact just because you want others to believe it to be true.

Actually, you can say what you want. But then people tend to ignore you.

Readers might not realize this because mazeltov never provided a source for the photo he posted, but the 2 men mentioned in the AHRC letter are the 2 men from the picture with Mr. Jaran on the left and Mr. Nattapon on the left.

The AHRC letter saysthat Mr. Nattapon was shot 3 times (twice with a "shotgun" and once with a M-16). In the photo he is pointing at the wound on his left leg (the last of the "shotgun" wounds mentioned in the AHRC report. Now it doesn't take a forensic pathologist to surmise that the blemish on his left leg was left by a rubber bullet and not a "shotgun" wound that jetsetbkk mentions.

To me it's pretty clear that they were not hit by conventional shotgun shells (be they shotgun pellets or shotgun slug), but were hit by rubber bullets.

Just as rabo had surmised.

The AHRC is taking rather dramatic license with the term "shotgun blast".

Hopefully this will clear up any misunderstandings left by mazeltov's unattributed photo.

Btw, the link for this article and photo since it wasn't provided by him, is:

˹ѧÊ×;ÔÁ¾ì¢èÒÇÊ´Í͹äŹì : ¤Ãº·Ø¡ÃÊ Ê´·Ø¡àÃ×èͧ

[JetsetBkk]

Having now seen the photos, it is clear that the marks were caused by rubber bullets.

Which just goes to show you can't believe anything - even from the AHRC - until you see it with your own eyes.

Apologies to rabo for my previous post.

<snip>

Readers might not realize this because mazeltov never provided a source for the photo he posted, but the 2 men mentioned in the AHRC letter are the 2 men from the picture with Mr. Jaran on the left and Mr. Nattapon on the left.

<snip>

This reader didn't.

<snip>

Hopefully this will clear up any misunderstandings left by mazeltov's unattributed photo.

<snip>

It certainly did.

Edited June 22, 2010 by JetsetBkk

[hideki]

Readers might not realize this because mazeltov never provided a source for the photo he posted, but the 2 men mentioned in the AHRC letter are the 2 men from the picture with Mr. Jaran on the left and Mr. Nattapon on the left.

Sorry, too late to edit.

Mr. Jaran is on the right.

[mazeltov]

Check the front cover of the magazine highlighted on 2Bangkok.com today. Extremely provocative and as far from reconciliatory as you can get IMO.

you mean the front cover with a cartoon where somebody is chained to a bed? nothing to worry, a world-wide international standard and practice according to some ultra right-wing extremists.

You missed out the part of being raped.

Highly inflammatory and further proof (if more was needed) that peace is the last thing on the mind of the reds.

huh?

Peace???

I think being gunned down by the Abhisit government, being tortured and denied the basic human rights was indeed not in the mind of the reds.

Remember that over 80 people were killed and hundreds were wounded when Abhisit send out the troops? Did you read about the human right violations? That the barbaric act to chaining of wounded detainees could constitute an act of cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment, an act of torture. How that can be seen that peace is the mission of Abhisit?

And now the reds also dare to draw a cartoon. Extremely provocative? Highly inflammatory? Disgusting!

WAR IS PEACE

FREEDOM IS SLAVERY

[TAWP]

Being tortured?

Scheez, the propaganda spouted here...

And no, I don't remember anyone being killed when they sent out the troops, I remember being killed when they attacked the troops...

[hideki]

The AHRC have their work cut out for them if they expect to end the practice for so many other countries that restrict the movement of detainees as likely every signatory nation to that convention is in violation.

Good luck, AHRC

Belgium

Chained at hospital St John of Bruges

USA

http://www.babble.com/CS/blogs/strollerderby/archive/2008/07/15/illegal-immigrant-shackled-during-labor.aspx

India

The Tribune, Chandigarh, India - Punjab

UK

Pregnant Prisoner Handcuffed 'Every Minute' In Scottish Jail | UK News | Sky News

Kenya

The Standard | Online Edition :: Naivasha’s chamber of death

[Insight]

Check the front cover of the magazine highlighted on 2Bangkok.com today. Extremely provocative and as far from reconciliatory as you can get IMO.

you mean the front cover with a cartoon where somebody is chained to a bed? nothing to worry, a world-wide international standard and practice according to some ultra right-wing extremists.

You missed out the part of being raped.

Highly inflammatory and further proof (if more was needed) that peace is the last thing on the mind of the reds.

huh?

Peace???

I think being gunned down by the Abhisit government, being tortured and denied the basic human rights was indeed not in the mind of the reds.

Remember that over 80 people were killed and hundreds were wounded when Abhisit send out the troops? Did you read about the human right violations? That the barbaric act to chaining of wounded detainees could constitute an act of cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment, an act of torture. How that can be seen that peace is the mission of Abhisit?

And now the reds also dare to draw a cartoon. Extremely provocative? Highly inflammatory? Disgusting!

WAR IS PEACE

FREEDOM IS SLAVERY

Blatant propagandist. One would hope your efforts, paid or not, are entirely wasted on this forum.

[Ulysses G.]

I am Thai and not an elite but I am very anti red movement

On a personal note, I live in Chiang Mai and in my experience the reds are not gaining strength...it is quite the opposite.  The red actions in BKK is seen as embarrassing and shameful to many.

It is nice to have a Thai person who lives in - what was - red country and is in the know to point this out. 

[warfie]

how much of that cr4p was on topic?

Anyway... "Thailand's red-shits Planning Revenge" sounds like when my eldest child was little and got told off for doing something wrong so she 'got revenge' by throwing another tantrum... And breaking something if I remember... but that was a while ago...

"Revenge"?!?! revenge for being stopped from continuing their illegal occupation after refusing to negotiate? It's the residents of Krung Thep whom they disrupted that should be calling for revenge, especially the poor who's meagre income was totally disrupted by these self proclaimed "champions of the poor".

Please don't label me a yellow or a government apologist, I am commenting on this topic and this topic alone.

[Just1Voice]

Just REMEMBER this whole situation is far from over..it will continue UNTIL there is an ELECTION!

Once there is an ELECTION then you YELLOW SHIRT Sympathizers will have to be on the side of the REAL TERRORISTS! As the YELLOW SHIRTS will make their move.

So you ask where is the end of this conflict? I think if you study what is really going on here you will find the answer!

Let there be no mistake my shirt is RED!

Get over it! The election already happened and the reds lost. Period. And lost big time in the most recent elections. It does not look good for them in the future...especially if their war chest is locked up and they can't bribe the locals!!!!

Sure, they will still have pockets of supporters in Issan, but the majority of Thailand will not vote their way...

You're joking, right? They lost a "local" election in a area that is predominately Dems/Pad, but if you look at the last two NATIONAL elections, they won by overwhelming majorities. Those "little pockets of supporters" are a hel_l of a lot bigger than those of you in live in La La Land a/k/a Bangkok, realize.

[otherstuff1957]

Just REMEMBER this whole situation is far from over..it will continue UNTIL there is an ELECTION!

Once there is an ELECTION then you YELLOW SHIRT Sympathizers will have to be on the side of the REAL TERRORISTS! As the YELLOW SHIRTS will make their move.

So you ask where is the end of this conflict? I think if you study what is really going on here you will find the answer!

Let there be no mistake my shirt is RED!

Get over it! The election already happened and the reds lost. Period. And lost big time in the most recent elections. It does not look good for them in the future...especially if their war chest is locked up and they can't bribe the locals!!!!

Sure, they will still have pockets of supporters in Issan, but the majority of Thailand will not vote their way...

You're joking, right? They lost a "local" election in a area that is predominately Dems/Pad, but if you look at the last two NATIONAL elections, they won by overwhelming majorities. Those "little pockets of supporters" are a hel_l of a lot bigger than those of you in live in La La Land a/k/a Bangkok, realize.

I'm really looking forward to the next elections.... Mainly to see this "overwhelming majority' crap finally and completely disproven. You Reds need to learn that there is more to Thailand than Khon Kaen and Udon Thani!

[rubl]

No the majority of foreigners most certainly do NOT support the red shirt goal, violent or not, of returning Thaksin to power. The majority do of course believe in increased social justice and programs for poor people.

No? No what?

And what majority of foreigners? The haters at this board? The international community of beer bar patrons in thailand? Or who?

This isn't about to support them or not. This is a question about their human rights.

So why other foreigners, like the dudes from the Asian Human Rights commission release different statements? They condemning the Abhisit government for human rights violations. same as Amnesty International did. And same as the

in a special session.

Human right don't depend on race, nationality, gender, sexual orientation and so on or if an internet partisan with the moniker Jingthing hate a group of protesters. Human rights are universal rights.

Well, well, it seems you're again at your insulting, obnoxious best. Mixing truths, halftruths, suggestions and insinuations. Calling names, or suggesting posters are beer-bar patrons. Not nice, didn't your mother tell you?

The AHRC didn't condemn, they voiced concern, outrage, call for details, etc. International organization have to be a bit more carefull in voicing their concern than the average poster here.

[animatic]

I am Thai and not an elite but I am very anti red movement

On a personal note, I live in Chiang Mai and in my experience the reds are not gaining strength...it is quite the opposite. The red actions in BKK is seen as embarrassing and shameful to many.

It is nice to have a Thai person who lives in - what was - red country and is in the know to point this out.

SJM, thank you

for this report from up north that isn't filled with blind biases and propaganda.

It's very refreshing and insiteful.

[rixalex]

Get over it! The election already happened and the reds lost. Period. And lost big time in the most recent elections. It does not look good for them in the future...especially if their war chest is locked up and they can't bribe the locals!!!!

Sure, they will still have pockets of supporters in Issan, but the majority of Thailand will not vote their way...

You're joking, right? They lost a "local" election in a area that is predominately Dems/Pad, but if you look at the last two NATIONAL elections, they won by overwhelming majorities. Those "little pockets of supporters" are a hel_l of a lot bigger than those of you in live in La La Land a/k/a Bangkok, realize.

but if you look at the last two NATIONAL elections, they won by overwhelming majorities

The last two national elections were in 2006 and 2007. No single party won either of those, let alone "by overwhelming majorities". Where are your "facts" coming from?

[monkfish]

Bla bla bla and the propaganda war continues!

Does anybody not expect them not to seek revenge after so many were murdered?

Should they just forget?

Anyway I thought PM promised transparency with the investigations so what as the past month brought?

Apart from the arrests of University professors?

Don't expect the SOE to end before the regime.

[cdnvic]

The inflammatory posting is getting out of hand (you know who you are). Time to tone it down and get back to a reasonable discussion. Plenty of loony toon political forums to go crazy in if you look around. We won't allow this place to return to that.

[cdnvic]

One poster has gotten an extended suspension for linking to an article that dragged the Monarchy into the debate. Remember that before linking to something, read it fully to ensure it doesn't violate forum rules or Thai laws, which this link did on both counts. If you post such a link in error, use the report button to alert a moderator and there will be no punitive action taken.

[craigt3365]

Just REMEMBER this whole situation is far from over..it will continue UNTIL there is an ELECTION!

Once there is an ELECTION then you YELLOW SHIRT Sympathizers will have to be on the side of the REAL TERRORISTS! As the YELLOW SHIRTS will make their move.

So you ask where is the end of this conflict? I think if you study what is really going on here you will find the answer!

Let there be no mistake my shirt is RED!

Get over it! The election already happened and the reds lost. Period. And lost big time in the most recent elections. It does not look good for them in the future...especially if their war chest is locked up and they can't bribe the locals!!!!

Sure, they will still have pockets of supporters in Issan, but the majority of Thailand will not vote their way...

You're joking, right? They lost a "local" election in a area that is predominately Dems/Pad, but if you look at the last two NATIONAL elections, they won by overwhelming majorities. Those "little pockets of supporters" are a hel_l of a lot bigger than those of you in live in La La Land a/k/a Bangkok, realize.

Please correct me if I am wrong...but I thought in the Bangkok local elections PT lost many seats they have held for years. Yes, dems lost a few also...but overall...did better?

And I do believe you are correct that nobody won the national elections...that is why there is a coalition in charge now. But doesn't that also mean PT didn't win an overall majority?

Upcoming elections are going to be real interesting to watch...

[hammered]

Just REMEMBER this whole situation is far from over..it will continue UNTIL there is an ELECTION!

Once there is an ELECTION then you YELLOW SHIRT Sympathizers will have to be on the side of the REAL TERRORISTS! As the YELLOW SHIRTS will make their move.

So you ask where is the end of this conflict? I think if you study what is really going on here you will find the answer!

Let there be no mistake my shirt is RED!

Get over it! The election already happened and the reds lost. Period. And lost big time in the most recent elections. It does not look good for them in the future...especially if their war chest is locked up and they can't bribe the locals!!!!

Sure, they will still have pockets of supporters in Issan, but the majority of Thailand will not vote their way...

You're joking, right? They lost a "local" election in a area that is predominately Dems/Pad, but if you look at the last two NATIONAL elections, they won by overwhelming majorities. Those "little pockets of supporters" are a hel_l of a lot bigger than those of you in live in La La Land a/k/a Bangkok, realize.

Please correct me if I am wrong...but I thought in the Bangkok local elections PT lost many seats they have held for years. Yes, dems lost a few also...but overall...did better?

And I do believe you are correct that nobody won the national elections...that is why there is a coalition in charge now. But doesn't that also mean PT didn't win an overall majority?

Upcoming elections are going to be real interesting to watch...

That is correct re elections in BKK and nationally. Many people I talk to now dont think there will be an election next year, however, and not necessarily because of who wouyld win or lose which is not as certain as people backing a certain team think. Have a chat to serious PTP people and you will hear a different story to what is spouted by the cheerleaders on places like this. The NPP is also likely to be the joke it should be.