Tourists Warned Not To Feed Bangkok's Street Elephants

[zappalot]

How after all the input some member of thaivisa can come up with the question where to put these elephants?

In at least three postings the www.elephantnaturepark.org is mentioned!

They are ready to take 10 street elephants right away, to feed them and to take medical care. Instead of just talking around as many do i get this information from first hand. No hoping, no guessing, no rumors - but facts!

I also recommend to people with some degree to visit for example this park and get some information out of first hand before they guessing around what activists who are concerned about the elephants did or not did before taking action.

There is at least one more park treating the animals in the best way possible without putting the focus on money first. So there are more possibilities to get them away from the streets.

I also dont know what the governments plan is if they really confiscate an elephant from their owner. At least this is what they announced if they find them begging in bangkok. So maybe someone try to find out? Call 1555 and ask.

[welsh1]

"Farangs are rich enough to pay 10K.

That's just small change to them."

Edited July 15, 2010 by welsh1

[welsh1]

"Farangs are rich enough to pay 10K.

That's just small change to them."

This thread is a magnet for some of the most stupid comments ever.

True and no more stupid than what you just said

Qoute "Farangs are rich enough to pay 10K.

That's just small change to them."

Most farangs have worked hard most of there lives ..and havnt spend most of there lives lazing about in hammocks waiting for a big windfall to come and fall into there laps

[Rucharee]

First the poor buffalo was replaced by the iron buffalo

common in all Thai villages.

However this trend is reversing as oil prices rise. Grass is free.

The animals can be borrowed from the Royal Water Buffalo Bank

The poor elephant has also been displaced by the iron elephant.

Let us hope that this trend can also be reversed.

I hope you ride the donkey from your country to Thailand.

[Deeral]

ReportedAugust last year...... "SukhumbhandParibatra" Governor of Bkk If street elephants remain in Bangkok after next summer, the governor promised, "then I'll personally ride them out of Bangkok myself." ….....so this is clearly a desperate attempt by the Governor of Bkk to sweepsomething he said under the carpet. It is estimated here are about 80 elephant roaming Bkk central –"Winalot" is taking 10 so what about the others and the the onesthat have left Bkk and are now begging in the suburbs or other towns around the country?

......apparently the number in BKK was 200 a year ago - are they in parks? i doubt it.......simply in another part of the country begging and waiting to return to the "big time".....

AsI've said before it takes MONEY to look after an elephant and eventhe BEST parks are short on cash – in fact the ones that have moneyare probably the more exploitative ones.....so for the elephants itmay well be a case of "Out of the frying pan into the fire"

Edited July 15, 2010 by Deeral

[Deeral]

" Grass is free." - not in my field it ain't!

[zappalot]

AsI've said before it takes MONEY to look after an elephant and eventhe BEST parks are short on cash – in fact the ones that have moneyare probably the more exploitative ones.....so for the elephants itmay well be a case of "Out of the frying pan into the fire"

i come up with facts, u just talk around, guessing, using words as probably. The ENP for example rescued dozens of elephants so far, started little. With a negative thinking as yours they never coould have started not to speak from running it successfully. they are collecting money from all around the world, the guests who sleep directly in the park can monitor everything on a 24/7 basis.

so as i wrote before: instead of guessing wildly around with any substantial background you should better take action, run towards the city and call 1555 after spotting the first elephant. also inform some journalist or make sure someone with a camera guiding you.

But please: stop talking bs...

Of course neither the police nor the BMA really do their homework, but dont always search for the one who is guilty somewhere else. everyone can do its part. i also regularly visit lost places in bangkok doing my part. but as everywhere: the majority is talking around and far away from doing something. hot air only...

[Deeral]

there's nothing negative about my thinking - it's rational - the process of fining will not work and your attitude that "things can only get better" is downright dangerous - do you seriously think that all the other elephants in parks are OK - do you seriously suggest that this measure will work

\do you think that by taking 10 elephants out of danger the public can now sit back and say "job done" - well I think that you are actually as much of a danger to elephants as the ruddy owners and con-men who rent them to and drag them round the streets.

as Lek herself says the only way to solve the problem is by a holistic approach and naivety such as you are showing is nothing more than a hindrance.

[zappalot]

there's nothing negative about my thinking - it's rational - the process of fining will not work and your attitude that "things can only get better" is downright dangerous - do you seriously think that all the other elephants in parks are OK - do you seriously suggest that this measure will work

\do you think that by taking 10 elephants out of danger the public can now sit back and say "job done" - well I think that you are actually as much of a danger to elephants as the ruddy owners and con-men who rent them to and drag them round the streets.

as Lek herself says the only way to solve the problem is by a holistic approach and naivety such as you are showing is nothing more than a hindrance.

did i somewhere mention that in other parks the elephants are ok? i never said something like that. i just said there is at least one more park where it seems everything is alright...

i also never said "job done" with 10 elephants taking away from bangkok.where? where did i say that? u r interpreting things into my posting that i never wrote or said.

but u have to start somewhere.

of course the best way would be a holistic approach, no question about that! but this will not come by itself, action has to be taken for that. pressure from all sides only can get the BMA to seriously solve the problem.

u have to have a vision and to start somewhere.

this is how i did all my live long. started from nothing i could stop work with under40 (which i still am :-)

with rational thinking only i would have never accomplished. that does not mean that everything can be done without rational thinking, it also is needed to be successful, but there must be more than just rational thinking!

[JetsetBkk]

<snip>

This thread is a magnet for some of the most stupid comments ever.

Logging is very restricted in Thailand and it is almost 100% mechanised - so elephants are no longer needed there.

<snip>

I agree with your first sentence completely, and your second sentence is a good example why.

I came back from the north of Thailand (Lampang) a few weeks ago where they were using a lot of elephants in the logging business because the places where the trees were being felled were not accessible by vehicles other than moto-cys.

I'm and everybody else I think is well aware they are still used in limited areas where accessibility is restricted - you might also be aware that a lot of that logging is illegal and as a percentage of the logging undertaken in Thailand it is minute.

I'm so glad you visited Lampang- and I hope next time you go you;ll take the time to look more closely at what is going on there and put it into perspective with the rest of the country.

Where do you think all the elephants came from????

I think that splitting hairs is a particularly unattractive trait it really shows how little you have to contribute.

Blimey! Firstly, Deeral and Zappalot - get a room!

As for Deeral's comments, I have no idea where the elephants came from and don't understand the point you are trying to make. What I know is that they are used as working animals a lot up country, and are well cared for.

And what I contribute is a few facts, not just something I read about.

[djayz]

People...and tourists...luv elephants. Now we can get a 10000baht fine for helping keep them alive. That sucks!

Love elephants or not, anybody with half a brain knows that elephants don't belong in cities...and feeding them bananas and sugar cane doesn't really help to keep these mammals alive. Anybody who really wants to help should donate money to one of the various funds for elephants or directly to the elephant farms/villages (or whatever they're called).

There's one youngish elephant that is paraded around Hua Hin every evening. It disgusts me to see these idiots (tourists and locals alike) feeding them.

I am not a nutritionist but do hold a BA in Biology. Have never heard of bananas being detrimental to a mammal's diet. Also would place a healthy wager that the activists that are spouting about cataracts and lung disease have never read any valid research on the subject if any even exists. If you were actually well informed your post would have not been so vague when you mentioned "various funds for elephants." You would have been able to kick a few names out.

Nor am I a nutritionist but common sense alone tells me that elephants cannot survive on bananas alone. I think you're getting these animals mixed up with the other animals that like to eat lots and lots of bananas... hmmmm, what are they called again? Oh yes, now I remember: monkeys.

I am by no means an "activist" but I know the difference between "right and wrong" and I know that elephants - and other wild animals - don't belong in cities and shouldn't be paraded around just for our entertainment - if you don't have the brains to figure that out for yourself then maybe you should just stay in your beer bar. I'm not as well informed as the activists, but here's a few organisations dedicated to helping, protecting, sheltering and ensuring the future of elephants - here in Asia and Africa:

The National Elephant Institute,

Elephant Nature Park (60 km north of Chiang Mai) and let's not forget the

World Wildlife Fund.

There are many, many more funds, organizations, etc. - look them up yourself - if you're interested.

It looks ridiculous having your photo taken beside an elephant, monkey, whatever, in the middle of a crowded street, night market, whatever - smiling like a stupid hyena thinking "this is so cool".

[Thai at Heart]

Any anecdotal evidence of the BIB catching a single mahout/elephant yet or squeezing a fine out of a tourist?

[ukrules]

other wild animals - don't belong in cities and shouldn't be paraded around just for our entertainment

Have you ever been to Soi Cowboy ? You are talking about elephants here right ?

Edited July 15, 2010 by ukrules

[anotheruser]

PPPS. If anything they should concentrate on the owner of the elephants not the tourists.

That would make too much sense but not enough money. It is obvious they could put an end to all of this right here and now if they enforced the law against the animal handlers. It isn't like spotting an elephant in a tourist area is that hard to do.

[Deeral]

Come on!

So Lek will take 10 elephants = fact

Can you explain why when this problemis several decades old she hasn't?

Well maybe it's because these elephantsare someone's property and they are making a handy sum renting themout - (about 7000 per month).

There are between 2 and 3000domesticated elephants – largely a residue of the logging industry– they like humans age and need to retire. - no they're not allwalking the streets.

Furthermore, the population should beageing and reducing – but it isn't. Why?

Elephants they need looking after -elephantseat between 200 and 500 kilograms of food per day! And need 250litres of water a day! And they need space -

The Thai govt in the three decadessince the end of logging have done very little to help what was oncethe proud national symbol for Thailand. Help has been reduced topiecemeal voluntary charitable organisations who have to rely on thepublic for donations. They are frequently attacked by the press andphysically assaulted by those who own elephants or have an interestin their exploitation – e.g. logging or renting out to shows andstreet beggars.

A year ago there were over 200elephants wandering the streets of Bkk – the governor CLAIMS –(fact?) that there are now about 70 to 80. If we are to believe himthe question is where have they gone?

Are they all now in “Happy ElephantWonderland Park”? - I doubt it; they are still owned by the samepeople and are probably still being rented out to people who dragthem round the streets of another town or suburb.

Some parks are offering 30,000 dollarsfor elephants – but the offer is not being taken up – this showshow much money potentially can be made from these beasts. (I have tosay that at least one of these parks has been shown to negect it'scheges and was scandalised on world TV.) - so again even the existingparks are not in themselves always a safe haven for these animals.

So as I've repeatedly said – simplyfining people or pushing them out of BKK will NOT solve the problem –the govt has to have a national policy to remove and house theseanimals otherwise they will continue to suffer at the hands ofunscrupulous owners the length and breadth of the country.

As for working elephants – do yourresearch. On what basis re you saying they are well treated?

There is no guarantee that workingelephants are well treated – and where they come from is veryimportant.

Are you aware of how elephants are“Broken” in????

Elephants live a long time. - youcan't just casually “get hold" of a working elephant – most were“retired” when logging was made illegal in the 1980s.

Elephants used in logging are notnecessarily well treated t all and the logging may well be illegalitself.

There are about 2 to 3000 domesticates elephants in Thailand and the number is maintained largely be ILLEGALsmuggling from relatively elephant rich Burma.

Some are used in logging others areexploited in circuses, trekking camps or on the streets. Elephantsare worth money and bribes are big – this is big money for thoseinvolved.

Logging is pretty much ceased inThailand – where it occurs it it usually the rsult of bribery andcorruption and is illegally taking unsustainably sourced rare timber– which consequently is relatively inaccessible and has a highvalue.

Importing elephants from Burma is yetanother scandal that the Thai govt is not addressing

As for the health of elephants on the streets.

Try , feet, sunstroke and dehydration, gastricand respiratory problems (check out what an elephant REALLY eats), road accidents, cruelty and drugging are all part of the daily elephant abuse on the street.

[djayz]

other wild animals - don't belong in cities and shouldn't be paraded around just for our entertainment

Have you ever been to Soi Cowboy ? You are talking about elephants here right ?

Believe it or not, but I've never been to Soi Cowboy... I suppose I should go there one evening just for the craíc of it - no pun intended.

I was originally referring to the elephants, yes, but now that I think about it "other wild animals" can be interpreted in more than one way... all in jest of course.

[JetsetBkk]

Any anecdotal evidence of the BIB catching a single mahout/elephant yet <snip>

Nah, the elephant was too quick.

[dumball]

There are many well meant comments on these misused elephants in BKK , the thread has dragged on to nine pages , but the theme of the thread has not been well addressed , the inapropriate fining of tourists for the actions and none actions of the persons responsible .

I still mantain that this horific retribution towards tourists , aided and abetted by government officials , is a no brainer when one considers the HARM it could cause to tourism in general , it specifically names tourists to be fined as apposed to each and every person caught feeding the elephants . This , in and of itself , is a blatant form of racism , and should not be condoned or assisted in any way , shape or form by others , be they Thai or expats or governments of other countries , where is the, hue and cry ???????????????

[Tractor]

People...and tourists...luv elephants. Now we can get a 10000baht fine for helping keep them alive. That sucks!

We all, Thais, expats and tourists alike, need to be educated about how to treat elephants. Relevant messages get out to the tourists quickly enough - that's no problem. As a very farang looking foreigner, I was targeted recently at a Chiang Mai market. When I not only refused to give money, but told the mahoot and his money collector that the city was no place for an elephant, I was angrily verbally abused by the mahoot. The locals as well as the tourists giving elephants in the city food and money definitely need to be targeted, as do the mahoots and supposed mahoots who abuse elephants in such a way.

[Deeral]

Education concerning wildlife in Thailand is practically nil - so it is hardly surprising to see daily examples of animal abuse and exploitation.

westerners however have been bombarded with Wildlife education - yet you STILL see examples of "Western" people who just don't get it! THis profound ignorance I think is far less excusable than the widespread ignorance amongst the Thai population.

[dumball]

'Deeral' date='2010-07-21 09:44' timestamp='1279680268' post='3762462']

Education concerning wildlife in Thailand is practically nil - so it is hardly surprising to see daily examples of animal abuse and exploitation.

westerners however have been bombarded with Wildlife education - yet you STILL see examples of "Western" people who just don't get it! THis profound ignorance I think is far less excusable than the widespread ignorance amongst the Thai population.

You make some excellent points , but this still does not address my point that the blatant fining of tourists ONLY , is a phseudo form of racism , saying that Thai are ignorant to animal abuse , but Westeners have had much education on the subject , has nothing to do with the intended preditory action of government bodies .

Tourist take photos as mementos of thier vacation to display on thier return home , without HUGE signage displayed in prominent places for them to be 'Educated' , how can they then be aware it is forbidden ? A simple brochure given as they pass through immigration on arrival in Thailand , would at the least , give them a fighting chance to understand that THEY ALONE would be targetted for a fine .

Excuses and defense of the Kingdom are all very well , but this makes you guilty of aiding and abetting , what to me , is a blatant crime towards tourists who are only here on A HOLIDAY and already contributing to the coffers of the nation .

[Deeral]

You make some excellent points , but this still does not address my point that the blatant fining of tourists ONLY , is a phseudo form of racism , saying that Thai are ignorant to animal abuse , but Westeners have had much education on the subject , has nothing to do with the intended preditory action of government bodies .

This is largely because you are incorrect - there is intended to be fines for others too....the "mahouts" as they are laughingly called.

I bleieve in fixating on whether or not there are racist implications is tangential to the main issue which is the welfare of the elephants.

[dumball]

'Deeral' date='2010-07-21 10:57' timestamp='1279684634' post='3762641']

You make some excellent points , but this still does not address my point that the blatant fining of tourists ONLY , is a phseudo form of racism , saying that Thai are ignorant to animal abuse , but Westeners have had much education on the subject , has nothing to do with the intended preditory action of government bodies .

This is largely because you are incorrect - there is intended to be fines for others too....the "mahouts" as they are laughingly called.

I bleieve in fixating on whether or not there are racist implications is tangential to the main issue which is the welfare of the elephants.

Do you always splir hairs ?

The matter of the 'Mahoots' who happen to be the controlers of elephants , were directed some time ago , to not bring thier charges into BKK , this is a new edict concerning the unsuspecting tourists being fined and not any other person not connected to the animal . A ruling has also already been made in regards to the elephants welfare , they were not allowed in BKK at any time , there have been several injured and one killed in the city of scams , hence the ruling , but the police fail to do thier job and have them transported out of the city , it has been noted that they are difficult for said police to see .

The heading for this thread read "tourists to be fined for feeding elephants " , I see no reference to the welfare of elephants , you , like others , have read this into the thread of your own volition , now you want to split hairs over your personal adendum .

I shake my head in a bewildered manner , English is not THAT hard to understand if you are capable of reading what is written as apposed to what you feel should have been written , happens too often on this forum of late .

[Deeral]

I'm not splitting hairs - you are incorrect and, after reading something, I'm able to comprehend, draw inferences and carry out some critical thinking, which you seem to find hard to do.

Edited July 21, 2010 by Deeral

[phetaroi]

Call BMA hotline 1555 and let them know where u have seen the elephant, also call the police, inform them that u have seen an elephant AND that u already informed the authorities who provided that servicenumber 1555 to take steps against the one who take the elephant to the city. Take photo of the stupid tourist who feed the elephant. Everyone who get some information should be aware of that problem. So there are no excuses if someone get caught.

I hope you are saying this in jest...

1) Tourists cannot be held responsible for the Police not doing their job and cannot be required to check animal handlers license before they pay for the pleasure of having an elephant snatch a corn bar from their hand.

2) If an elephant and its handler walks by several police officers without action, why would calling the police help?

I have even seen an elephant and its handler on Silom several times and there is always police officers around plus a police car check station there every night...

Thank you TAWP for trying to make Zappalot see why some of us are so annoyed at this revelation.

I don't think many of us disagree that elephants don't belong on the streets of Bangkok. What irks me is that once again it

s the foreigners who are almost being blamed for the problem. After all, we shouldn't expect police to see an elephant walking on the streets of Bangkok...after all, those elephants are so tiny that they are not easily identified. And even when they are, they are so fast that we couldn't expect a cop on a motorcycle or in a police car to apprehend the mahout that is flying through the city streets on an elephant.

It's the same old story. The police didn't uphold the law on May 19. They don't uphold the national or city laws regarding elephants. They don't uphold the law. Period. They do what they want to do. And rather than put the responsibility where it lies -- first with the mahouts, second with the people who are supposed to enforce laws, it's easier -- and customary -- to blame foreigners.

[phetaroi]

Yes, i agree 100%. The cop who dont take action is to be fined as well. at least in serious cases.

in may area they never do what they should do. i go by motorbike and wear the helmet rarely. i never got stopped. once or twice in a year they have the helmet control day, there u have to be careful, but after that: business as usual, none cares.

but when it comes to suffering animals and when the proplem can be solved i will take action! and everybody should.

just c the cases when destroying of the last remaining trees of the former rain forest along some roads in thailand (just recently) came to a hold because of some encouraged, committed people took action.

everybody can start something, or just talk around, try to find excuses for (his own?) failing...

Ah, so your respect for the law is I follow the laws I like?

[phetaroi]

Love elephants or not, anybody with half a brain knows that elephants don't belong in cities...and feeding them bananas and sugar cane doesn't really help to keep these mammals alive. Anybody who really wants to help should donate money to one of the various funds for elephants or directly to the elephant farms/villages (or whatever they're called).

There's one youngish elephant that is paraded around Hua Hin every evening. It disgusts me to see these idiots (tourists and locals alike) feeding them.

Djayz, shame on you. You have broken one of the most sacred of all Thai customs. You have actually partially blamed the "locals", when you should only blame the foreigners for Thailand's problems.

[zappalot]

everybody can start something, or just talk around...

Ah, so your respect for the law is I follow the laws I like?

i can only repeat myself:

everybody can start something, or just talk around...

[Deeral]

<snip>

This thread is a magnet for some of the most stupid comments ever.

Logging is very restricted in Thailand and it is almost 100% mechanised - so elephants are no longer needed there.

<snip>

I agree with your first sentence completely, and your second sentence is a good example why.

I came back from the north of Thailand (Lampang) a few weeks ago where they were using a lot of elephants in the logging business because the places where the trees were being felled were not accessible by vehicles other than moto-cys.

Jetset - what you were witnessing in all probability was ILLEGAL logging - in this the animals a grossly overworked. They are usually new animals illegally imported across the Burmese border and if you are familiar with the methods used to "break in" elephants you'd certainly not be happy about their welfare.

[aka_jack]

This is a no brainer really the goverment doesnt want the tourists to feed the elephants so as to try and force them of the streets !, so fine the unsuspecting tourist, its a good money maker, instead of confiscating any elephants on the streets and putting them in a wild life reserve which would cost them money ! ner fine the tourists make some money ! what next ? fine tourists for giving street beggars money ! this countrys laws are a joke !