Arrested For Shaking Hands

[galowgala]

A bar owner got arrested in Pattaya by immigration and had to pay 50,000 Baht, they said that as he shook customers hands as they entered the bar that is classed as work ? That don't sound right to me and it is also worrying for me, as i am just about to start a business for my Thai wife but will need my own business cards for English language enquiries, I was told i do not need a work permit for this is it true ?

[InterestedObserver]

Unless you are a passive investor, any involvement you have with the business will require a work permit. Just being on the premises can land you in trouble, how can you disprove the presumption of guilt? Work is anything the authorities say it is.

Edited July 29, 2010 by InterestedObserver

[powderpuff]

Exactky right. If you are sitting in your wifes bar you can & will be arrested, jailed & deported for working.

Stay upstairs - or like the old timers - sit in the neighbors bar.

[Mario2008]

The business cards say you need a work permit, you are not an investor. Especially Pattaya seems to be cracking down lately.

[thomo]

If you're looking for headaches, start a business here.

If not, earn your money other ways.

[bangkockney]

If you're looking for headaches, start a business here.

If not, earn your money other ways.

What you need to do is hire a good accountant who will fill you in on the necessary details to avoid said headaches.

As long as you don't draw a salary or dividends from the company, you can be a share holder with no need for a work permit (but don't do any work).

If your type of business allows, incorporate your company in your home country as well as Thailand, split revenues and take your salary from there. E.g., UK tax laws are much more favourable than Thailand; in Thailand dividends are classed as income and taxable at any level. In the UK, it's possible to withdraw £40k from the business and pay no tax, no NI, no employer's contributions etc.

You can therefore print the company details from your own country on your business cards. There is nothing to stop you doing work for your company back home whilst you are in Thailand.

Edited July 29, 2010 by bangkockney

[Pib]

Scarey to have to do such weaving and dodging, covering of tracks, etc., to avoid such headaches. About all I can say is, TIT.

[bangkockney]

Scarey to have to do such weaving and dodging, covering of tracks, etc., to avoid such headaches. About all I can say is, TIT.

TIT indeed.

It is always worth looking into if you would qualify for a work permit. I chose not to because of increased tax burden (foreigners pay higher tax than Thais), too much paperwork and large capital requirements (2m Baht minimum cash in the business to sponsor a work permit, if memory serves me right).

[fatfather]

....A bar owner got arrested in Pattaya by immigration and had to pay 50,000 Baht, they said that as he shook customers hands as they entered the bar that is classed as work ? That don't sound right to me and it is also worrying for me, as i am just about to start a business for my Thai wife but will need my own business cards for English language enquiries, I was told i do not need a work permit for this is it true....

Seems that somebody didn't play the required game... Legal and illegal are very close together up here. It does not mean that things are legal after you've been polite to authorities, but most falang take it as it is... bribe.

Fatfather

[rak sa_ngop]

Don't get caught having a J Arthur Rank as you could be fined for taking work away from a Thai ha ha ha

Edited July 29, 2010 by rak sa_ngop

[PoorSucker]

TIT indeed.

It is always worth looking into if you would qualify for a work permit. I chose not to because of increased tax burden (foreigners pay higher tax than Thais), too much paperwork and large capital requirements (2m Baht minimum cash in the business to sponsor a work permit, if memory serves me right).

Can you provide me of a source for that.

I pay the same taxes as a Thai.

Pesonal income tax

[thomo]

If you're looking for headaches, start a business here.

If not, earn your money other ways.

What you need to do is hire a good accountant who will fill you in on the necessary details to avoid said headaches.

Nothing will take away the headaches from the local police, business partners, business rivals and anyone who might get a grudge against you.

[surayu]

is in the news yet? sources?

[tombkk]

If you're looking for headaches, start a business here.

If not, earn your money other ways.

What you need to do is hire a good accountant who will fill you in on the necessary details to avoid said headaches.

As long as you don't draw a salary or dividends from the company, you can be a share holder with no need for a work permit (but don't do any work).

If your type of business allows, incorporate your company in your home country as well as Thailand, split revenues and take your salary from there. E.g., UK tax laws are much more favourable than Thailand; in Thailand dividends are classed as income and taxable at any level. In the UK, it's possible to withdraw £40k from the business and pay no tax, no NI, no employer's contributions etc.

You can therefore print the company details from your own country on your business cards. There is nothing to stop you doing work for your company back home whilst you are in Thailand.

If you do work in Thailand, you need a work permit. If it is only temporary (up to 15 days), check this out:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/386712-temporary-work-permit/

If you stay here permanently and work (for example as a bar owner), you need a real WP. Regardless of whether you have a company overseas and business cards with that address. You are here, you work, you pay income tax. It's that easy. All this incorporating a company in your home country is irrelevant to Thai labour law. Don't confuse people.

If you are a passive investor, you don't need a work permit. The moment you sign a check or shake a customer's hand, you are not passive any more and thus need a work permit. It's not really difficult to understand, is it?

Oh, and by the way, "work" according to Thai law does not require a salary. It does not matter whether you get paid for your work. So, even if you work for your company for free, you will still not be allowed to do that without a work permit. That you won't get a work permit if you have a salary of less than a certain amount, is another matter. Work for free is still work.

That's the way the Thai law works. My suggestion (as always) is to follow the law.

[millwall_fan]

If it is your wifes business, as long as she employ s a minimum of 4 Thais she can emply you as as well. If you are married you can declare her income for joint taxation purposes.

I must admit I've never heard of Farang being arrested as long as they didn't go behind the bar or do abvious work activities like taking orders. But there is a concerted effort by the Democrat government to get rid of as many of us as possible- an effort that makes Thaksin's puny attempts look like chicken feed!

Poorsucker: Ok technically you pay the same as a Thai, but it will be assumed that you are earning 50,000 baht a month, even if you arn't - that's the minimum a Farang can earn, so effectively you do pay more tax than a Thai: It's all part of the wonderfullly efficient racism that makes up this country!

[lopburi3]

There is no 50k minimum that a foreigner must earn. There are requirement from Immigration for extension of stay and that is the high point of that, but even then it does not apply to everyone (teachers for example are exempt).

Nationality

Minimum Income

1. European countries (except Russia), Australia continent, Canada, Japan, and U.S.A.

Baht 50,000/month

2. South Korea, Singapore, Taiwan and Hong Kong

Baht 45,000/month

3. Asian countries (except Japan, South Korea, Singapore, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Cambodia, Myanmar, Laos and Vietnam), South America continent, Countries in Eastern Europe, Countries in Central America, Mexico, Turkey, Russia and South Africa

Baht 35,000/month

4. African countries (except South Africa), Cambodia, Myanmar, Laos and Vietnam

Baht 25,000/month

[gburns57au]

Exactky right. If you are sitting in your wifes bar you can & will be arrested, jailed & deported for working.

Stay upstairs - or like the old timers - sit in the neighbors bar.

Rubbish,

You will not be arrested for sitting in your wifes bar or your own bar....you will be arrested if you are found to be doing any work, this includes doing the books, taking orders, serving drinks, hiring and firing staff or cleaning.

[Soutpeel]

I chose not to because of increased tax burden (foreigners pay higher tax than Thais), too much paperwork and large capital requirements (2m Baht minimum cash in the business to sponsor a work permit, if memory serves me right).

A highly intelligent comment from one of our asute, high flying, farang businessmen in Thailand...

Tax burden for foreigners and Thai's are exactly the same

[Mario2008]

Exactky right. If you are sitting in your wifes bar you can & will be arrested, jailed & deported for working.

Stay upstairs - or like the old timers - sit in the neighbors bar.

Rubbish,

You will not be arrested for sitting in your wifes bar or your own bar....you will be arrested if you are found to be doing any work, this includes doing the books, taking orders, serving drinks, hiring and firing staff or cleaning.

I think the point is that it is very easy to say you are working if you sit in your wife's bar. Just greeting guests can be constructed as working. Not entering your wife's bar can be a wise thing to do.

[gburns57au]

A bar owner got arrested in Pattaya by immigration and had to pay 50,000 Baht, they said that as he shook customers hands as they entered the bar that is classed as work ? That don't sound right to me and it is also worrying for me, as i am just about to start a business for my Thai wife but will need my own business cards for English language enquiries, I was told i do not need a work permit for this is it true ?

Sounds like he has p****d someone off...

Why do you need your own business cards?

English versions of your wifes business card would do the same job. Wouldnt putting your name on it mean you are working and would probably require a WP? Do you need names on the cards....contact number may be sufficient?

[gburns57au]

Exactky right. If you are sitting in your wifes bar you can & will be arrested, jailed & deported for working.

Stay upstairs - or like the old timers - sit in the neighbors bar.

Rubbish,

You will not be arrested for sitting in your wifes bar or your own bar....you will be arrested if you are found to be doing any work, this includes doing the books, taking orders, serving drinks, hiring and firing staff or cleaning.

I think the point is that it is very easy to say you are working if you sit in your wife's bar. Just greeting guests can be constructed as working. Not entering your wife's bar can be a wise thing to do.

That could well be the case if you P off a neighbouring bar owner....I have never seen a bar owner drinking in the neighbours bar except for a social drink occasionally.

[TaoNow]

Since Lopburi3 posted the reference to the minimum income requirements for ex-pats requesting extensions based on local employment, I'd like to raise the following (albeit off-topic) question:

Does anyone find it curious that the minimum "income" requirement for a retirement extension (65K baht/mo) is more than that for someone who is employed with a salary?

[ravip]

There is no 50k minimum that a foreigner must earn. There are requirement from Immigration for extension of stay and that is the high point of that, but even then it does not apply to everyone (teachers for example are exempt).

Nationality

Minimum Income

1. European countries (except Russia), Australia continent, Canada, Japan, and U.S.A.

Baht 50,000/month

2. South Korea, Singapore, Taiwan and Hong Kong

Baht 45,000/month

3. Asian countries (except Japan, South Korea, Singapore, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Cambodia, Myanmar, Laos and Vietnam), South America continent, Countries in Eastern Europe, Countries in Central America, Mexico, Turkey, Russia and South Africa

Baht 35,000/month

4. African countries (except South Africa), Cambodia, Myanmar, Laos and Vietnam

Baht 25,000/month

From where did you find this 'Minimum Income' list?

[Lite Beer]

From where did you find this 'Minimum Income' list?

Here. Police Order 2008.pdf

[Mario2008]

That list is part of the immigration rules and are the requirements for getting an extension of stay based on employment, not being a teacher, performer or member of the media. They are not part of the rules for a work permit.

Policeorder 777/2551: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/redirect.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.immigration.go.th%2Fnov2004%2Fdoc%2Ftemporarystay%2Fpolicy777-2551_en.pdf

[Flowerpot]

In so far as I understand it, 'work' in the Thai sense is 'the expending of energy' (sounds almost like a physics definition).

This means that of you get caught reading a newspaper and the official decides you are working then you're screwed. Certainly there are cases where simply sitting at a desk in the wife's office has been construed as work.

Bear in mind that the major cause of an official investigating someone, is a direct complaint or a word in an ear of the 'old buddies network' to settle a score or screw a competitor. Seems likely that someone wanted the hand-shaker screwed over.

[Lumumba]

If I could remember, the fine for working without a work permit is B 5000.

So I am assuming he shook ten different customers hands.

The minimum salary for a work permit is same for every nationality.

[Flowerpot]

Scarey to have to do such weaving and dodging, covering of tracks, etc., to avoid such headaches. About all I can say is, TIT.

TIT indeed.

It is always worth looking into if you would qualify for a work permit. I chose not to because of increased tax burden (foreigners pay higher tax than Thais), too much paperwork and large capital requirements (2m Baht minimum cash in the business to sponsor a work permit, if memory serves me right).

FWIW I am closing my own 2m company because of the shit the government was handing out on whim. Not worth the candle. So 4 more Thais are unemployed, less VAT and income tax gets paid and everyone loses. Way to go.

in my own experience of Thailand, trying to observe the law and do things right is not the way to go, it just gives them an opportunity to harass Johnny Foreigner and make themselves feel smart and powerful.

Then of course they wonder why fewer people want to invest here. Strange really but TiT, you go through the looking-glass when you enter Thai airspace.

[Mario2008]

If I could remember, the fine for working without a work permit is B 5000.

So I am assuming he shook ten different customers hands.

The minimum salary for a work permit is same for every nationality.

The maximum fine is 100,000 baht and/or 5 years in jail.

The requirements for a work permit are more or less the same, the requirements regarding income you need to apply for an extension of stay from immigration do depend on your nationality.

[PoorSucker]

Poorsucker: Ok technically you pay the same as a Thai, but it will be assumed that you are earning 50,000 baht a month, even if you arn't - that's the minimum a Farang can earn, so effectively you do pay more tax than a Thai: It's all part of the wonderfullly efficient racism that makes up this country!

I pay taxes on 30.000 baht/month.

I have extension of stay based on marriage.

I have friends that also pay taxes on 30.000 baht/month.

They can not get extension of stay based on employment.

They go every 15 months to KL for a multiple non-B and goes to the border every 3 months.

Teachers earn less but pay same taxes as the Thai teachers.