I Dont Fancy My German Neibours Chances

[orang37]

Kaek of course is an Indian... I think it means 'visitor'. as for farang...

What is a Farang?

Sawasdee Khrup, Khun WhiteRussian, Khun WildPikey,

Linguists, Thai and foreign, debate the origins of 'Farang, some believing it's derived from the Persian 'ferengi (stranger), others believing it evolved from the Thai word for the French, 'Farangset. And some arguing it came from the Thai word for Guava. 'Kaek literally refers to a dark-skinned person, but does appear to have been mainly used to refer to people from India (with a slightly pejorative sense: there is a not-so-subtle racism among Thais towards Indians even now, in modern times).

I wonder if "farang" and "afrangui" derive from the same or similar >source or is it just a coincidence?

The hypothesis there's a link between 'Farang and 'au frangul' seems to us improbable.

Indeed, the term farang is a short derivative of Francais (sp?) which probably would have been the first group who had come to contact with Thai people."

Well, the first western visitor to Chiang Mai was in 1609; he was a member of the Honorable Company of Tanners and Leather Workers from London, and he walked across India, took ship to Burma, and came down from Burma to Chiang Mai. There's a reference to the book he published on his travels in Shakespeare's MacBeth (in one of the three witches dialogs). On his return his wife, believing he was dead, was shocked. One of his companions, a watch and clock maker, stayed to work for the Mughal Emperor Aurangzeb.

And the Portugese were here long before the French, serving as mercenaries in both Thai (Ayudhyan) and Burmese (Peguan) armies. Before European contact the various kingdom/city-states (muangs) of Thailand had vibrant trade and contact with China, India, Persia, and the Arab world. Even after European contact (with Portugese and Dutch first) the vast extent of lucrative trade was with China, and Japan, and even the Ryukus. Many finds of Thai Sawankhalok pottery in the Phillipines, and all around what is now the Indonesian cluster of geo-bodies.

"The term farang, no matter one likes it or not, is being used to mean westerners (with typically blond hair and/or blue eyes). Those who have sharp facial features but with dark hair and eyes are often called khAAg'."

We humbly disagree: we believe Farang is a catch-all for all Europeans, lighter or darker, and, as we said, Kaek is reserved mostly for Indians, and Africans, in our experiences are called "Kon Dum" (black people).

"Other Far Eastern Asians are called by their natiinality, e.g. Yii"pun', jiin-, kaw-lii+. We also use specific term for people in the S.E. Asian countries which, like with those of other countries, normally prefixed by the term khon, e.g. laaw, ka'meen+, viat"naam- (or kAAw), maa-lee-sia-, in-doo-(Idonesian), pha"maa", in-dia-. Some of the words could sound negative, depending on the context in which they are used."

Thais would have called Khmer: "Khmen" (Cambodian; they dominaed most of what is now central Thailand from Lopbhuri, with a major colony/oupost in Haripunchai (now Lamphun) under the reign of the semi-legendary Queen Camadevi, whose mythical body-odor was so pungent it extended the distance of "three gongs' sound, and one elephant trumpet's blast. The Khmer subjugated the tribal Lawo people in the area.

"French may not be the First farang to come to Siam (the Portugese was believed to be the first)."

Definitely.

"But French influence on Thai is probably the most. Thailand is probably the first Asian country to sent diplomats to France (during King Narai's reign in 16th century, or during Louise the 14th). We could have picked up the word 'frang' during this visit. Moreover, we called English as the French call them, Ungrid (Angglaise in French)."

The extensive detente to the west, focusing on France, and the person of Louis XIV, under the reign of King Narai, along with the Cyprus born ship's-boy serving the British East India Company, Constantine Phaulcon, who had become effectively Narai's chief advisor and director of foreign trade, if not "virtual prime minister," scheming with French Jesuits, led to the death of Narai, the seizure by the French of Bangkok, the murder of Phaulcon, the imprisonment (and murder of some) of the French and Jesuits, the expulsion of the French, and a complete aversion to the French by Kings Petracha and his adopted son (actually the biological child of Narai) who became the infamous King Luang Sorasak (aka "King Tiger"), Thailand's own version of Idi Amin. The French were banned from trade for many years.

The French "gunboat in front of the Grand Palace" extortion in 1893 of vast territories (vassal states to Siam) in what are now Laos and western Cambodia, leading to the complete humiliation of King Rama V (Chulalongkorn) once again made the French a "hated enemy." In addition to the territories, they demanded, and got ,reparations that bank-rupted the Thai palace's monetary reserves, and required the nobles (khunnags) to pony up. The scene of the transfer by wagons of most of the country's silver to a waiting French ship is described by contemporary sources as "streets lined with weeping people." And, after 1893, King Rama V went into physical decline and a severe depression; it was widely believed he might actually die. But, with the help of Prince Damrong and his other brothers, he got through that period, and then began a period of frantic action to rebuild the defenses along the Chao Phraya (with European specialist of high military rank hired to supervise the labor), to begin to bring Lanna and the settlements along the east bank of the Mekong under centralized government control by gradually replacing the old provincial nobility.

France's trading role, thus, compared to the Dutch and English, was small, and we believe the political traumas of both Narai's times, and the 1893 extortion, makes it unlikely that many words are taken from French into Thai. And we think it's quite a stretch to go from "Angglaise" in French to "Angrit" in Thai: an implausible stretch.

"Bread is Pung (Le Pang, in French)."

By the way, the word we know for bread in Thai is "kannumphan." Perhaps "pung" is the root word here ? We're not sure.

Finally, the presence of Indian run trading entrepots as far back as the second to fourth centuries of the Christian era, along the coast of what is now Vietnam (Oc Eo for one), in which excavations by the French archaeologist Louis Malleret found many Roman artifacts, suggest a more diverse pattern of contact, in times before the migration of the Tai peoples down from South China, perhaps in the period when Srivijaya in Java dominated southern and middle Thailand ? Perhaps in early Khmer domibant times ? In our personal collection is a silver-lead large medallion (perhaps a fibula, or cloak pin) most likely from the Oc Eo site (we've had positive identirfications as "Roman empire origin," from two well-known international experts in Roman coinage and symbolism on this piece). On the back of the piece, at some point, someone incised some Cambodian "yan" or mantric syllables.

"Note: French people is 'Frang', French language is "Farangset"

And other linguists point back much further in time to the pre-cohesive-France where the Franks of the early medieval period, who became known during their crusades in the middle-east, and the Ionian peninsula (looting Byzantium on the way to the "Holy Land"), brought the word "Frank" into Arab (and later Persian ?) vocabularies.

"Another scenario is that: French people came to Siam and finger pointing at their chests and said "Frang, Frang" (I am French, I'm French). As in the case of Yon Karafat, Thai were quick to insert 'a' to make it easier to pronounce since Thai language has no 'fr' sound. The word farang stick because it's also the same as the native popular fruit in the land. There we go again!"

And, we'll never know the real, possibly multiple, linguistic vectors, that resulted in "Farang" ?

The French economic rape of Vietnam (Annam, formerly Cochin China), and Cambodia, was pursued with all the violent gusto and atrocities that the British used in India, although we don't know if there was a French equivalent to the British East India's cutting a million thumbs off Bengali weavers to destroy the local weaving industry, and make Bengal dependent on English made textiles. It's all glossed over now, but for many years following 1893, many of the Thai nobility and Kings hated and detested France.

The conflict over Preah Vihar near the Thai Cambodian border, now being used as a political rallyng point and "shibboleth," by the PAD (with Khun Veera recently splitting off from Khun Chamlong's deal with PM Abhisit to not hold a rally at Government House) is directly related to a geographic disagreement over a 1904 French map which had added to it a little "bulge" encircling the Preah Vihar area and its surroundings into Cambodian territory: this in spite of the fact that Preah Vihar sits on top of a steep escarpment leading down to Cambodia, and can only be easily accessed from the Thai side.

And that steep escarpment, by the way, is where Thai soldiers forced a large group of Cambodian refugees over the edge at gunpoint, to plunge down (many were killed).

It is not a perfect world, history is one monstrous blood-clot, but, yet, still, as the song says: "I say to myself, what a wonderful world."

best, ~o:37;

Edited August 7, 2010 by orang37

[Jangot]

Oh no, not the origin of farang debate again...I thought we were discussing an obnoxious German

[CMX]

Obnoxious Germans came late to the game of colonialism and were stuck mostly with grabbing some central African regions, where thumbs were not much of an issue.

The French economic rape of Vietnam (Annam, formerly Cochin China), and Cambodia, was pursued with all the violent gusto and atrocities that the British used in India, although we don't know if there was a French equivalent to the British East India's cutting a million thumbs off Bengali weavers to destroy the local weaving industry, and make Bengal dependent on English made textiles. - Orang

Actually, we are pretty clear that the French did not cut off one million thumbs, as even their portable guillotines were too big.

[bifftastic]

Marvellous stuff orang37, I won't quote it in my reply due to it's length but a thoroughly enjoyable and informative read. Thank you.

Again drifting off topic from the obnoxious neighbour, but the word France, in French, does not have the same ' AH' vowel sound as it does in English, so the supposed Frenchmen pointing to themselves would have made more of an 'OHN' sound and, would have said 'Francais, je suis (or nous sommes) Francais' not 'Frang'

Ok back to the verbally abusive neighbour

[bolx]

the problems probably been solved now, the german will have moved out or died from das boredom after reading all that farang cr@p

[HangDongRider]

Sorry boys, the word with F is absolut not common for us. Nobody use this. It makes no sense for a german. A...........loch or bas.........d, w.....r or sau, off course. These are our words. I live in a city with thousands of english soldiers, but the only ones, whose use the word with F are british. In my 50 years, I can count it at my hands, when a german used that . Not because we are gentle people, it has no meaning. Off course, the guy is an arschloch!

[Thighlander]

Wow this sounds like a really bad guy! I am shocked to hear how he insulted your wife.

There are some really bad farangs here, that's for sure. There is a farang guy in my moobaan that goes walking very fast - just short of jogging every morning. He carries with him a big stick (understandable), but one day I was outside and he came trotting by and my neighbors dog ran out of her house and barked at him - no bite attempted. She ran out immediately and grabbed the dog but the guy said to her in a very mean tone of voice "Next time I will kill the dog, do you understand? Next time I kill him". I was shocked at how much hate he had in the tone of his voice.

I remember my first weekend in Baan Wangtan. A friend visiting said "I don't think you will get robbed; not too sure about the dog bites, though." He was right. That is why I will never live in Thai suburbia again.......barking dogs, caged dogs, chained dogs, rarely being properly exercised....but I know, it's the spirit thing--might be someone's uncle.

Bsically, people feed stray dogs and let them roam and bother people after dark. I can't imagine anyone wanting to walk around at night.

[jackr]

Sorry boys, the word with F is absolut not common for us. Nobody use this. It makes no sense for a german. A...........loch or bas.........d, w.....r or sau, off course. These are our words. I live in a city with thousands of english soldiers, but the only ones, whose use the word with F are british. In my 50 years, I can count it at my hands, when a german used that . Not because we are gentle people, it has no meaning. Off course, the guy is an arschloch!

Who cares.