Farangs Calling Thai'S Racist...

[H2oDunc]

Scenario for you

A guy goes to work in London on construction sites. In all the toilets there is graffiti telling him to F%$k off back where he came from. When he goes into the canteen people there make monkey noises. On site people leave bananas on the scaffold he is working on regularly. RACIST ???

Wrong !

People will immediately presume this is aimed at a black person. It wasn't. The above is what I faced working in London. This is white people calling another white person. In London I was called a Northern Monkey as I came from the North East of England.. Did it bother me ? Not in the slightest. I quite like bananas and I have thick skin. names don't bother me. I just got on with my job. Easy really.

No Thai has ever given me any abuse

[Svenn]

I agree with the OP that racism in the purest sense of the word requires a past history of invidious subordination, mere ad hoc discrimination on the basis of nationality doesn't count. Sometimes you guys who live in Thailand full-time need to step back and get your head out of Thai culture for a while... look around you- every Thai, hel_l even Asian including the Japanese, fashion model tries to look the most Western they possibly can... half-race individuals are the standard of beauty; every Thai wants to go to the US, England, Australia, etc for study or work, and the hi-so ones have already left and never come back!! They mimic Western clothes, culture, architecture, music, dance, education, etc. etc the list goes on. While you guys might be slighted on the surface, the overwhelming trend of Thai culture is very pro-Western. I frankly could care less if some third-world bureaucrat in this country, or 'sophisticated' bangkokian, is prejudiced against me... I respect Thai and my own culture without anyone's provocation.

[wolf5370]

I agree with the OP that racism in the purest sense of the word requires a past history of invidious subordination, mere ad hoc discrimination on the basis of nationality doesn't count. Sometimes you guys who live in Thailand full-time need to step back and get your head out of Thai culture for a while... look around you- every Thai, hel_l even Asian including the Japanese, fashion model tries to look the most Western they possibly can... half-race individuals are the standard of beauty; every Thai wants to go to the US, England, Australia, etc for study or work, and the hi-so ones have already left and never come back!! They mimic Western clothes, culture, architecture, music, dance, education, etc. etc the list goes on. While you guys might be slighted on the surface, the overwhelming trend of Thai culture is very pro-Western. I frankly could care less if some third-world bureaucrat in this country, or 'sophisticated' bangkokian, is prejudiced against me... I respect Thai and my own culture without anyone's provocation.

By coinsidence I was hinking the very same this morning. Standing in a shopping mall in Chiang Mai (Airport Plazza) I look around and think that everyone is wearing western clothes, is made up in a western style (make up), has western hair styles (many dyed/bleached too). In a country as Nationalistic as this one, it makes me wonder why they are so happy to throw their national identity away in favour of the west. My girls (daughters) told me that everyone in their school listens too and idolises Korean musicians except one, who loves English language songs. Practically none of the kids listen to Thai music - and when they do its Thai pop (that is identical to western pop in style) and not Thai music (why has Thai music stuck in the classical/chamber music era, rather than evolved). Perhaps a new thread though...

[canuckamuck]

I agree with the OP that racism in the purest sense of the word requires a past history of invidious subordination, mere ad hoc discrimination on the basis of nationality doesn't count. Sometimes you guys who live in Thailand full-time need to step back and get your head out of Thai culture for a while... look around you- every Thai, hel_l even Asian including the Japanese, fashion model tries to look the most Western they possibly can... half-race individuals are the standard of beauty; every Thai wants to go to the US, England, Australia, etc for study or work, and the hi-so ones have already left and never come back!! They mimic Western clothes, culture, architecture, music, dance, education, etc. etc the list goes on. While you guys might be slighted on the surface, the overwhelming trend of Thai culture is very pro-Western. I frankly could care less if some third-world bureaucrat in this country, or 'sophisticated' bangkokian, is prejudiced against me... I respect Thai and my own culture without anyone's provocation.

Maybe we need a new thread with the title "Farangs calling Thais ad hoc discriminators"

Because this is what most of us mean when we say racist.

In today's lingo, even the slightest thing can be considered racist, even a poorly worded sentence can cause you trouble.

So us modern folks use the term in the vague way that it is used in everyday conversation, even though it may be plastic and sloppy.

So when we say Thais are racist, we probably don't mean we fear violence from them, it might just mean that they treat us different because we are not Thai and it sucks to be discriminated against.

[Ulysses G.]

So when we say Thais are racist, we probably don't mean we fear violence from them, it might just mean that they treat us different because we are not Thai and it sucks to be discriminated against.

Good call. I gave you a green.

[Heng]

I don't think there is as much assimilation/absorption of Scandinavian culture (or rejection of any other culture) through ownership of Ikea furniture or Nokia phones as hinted at in the previous few posts. Fashions are just that about as long lasting as legions of urban white kids wearing MC Hammer pants...

[473geo]

I am unique, I have been created through my own individual life experiences, why would I expect to be treated the same as everybody else?

[Svenn]

I don't think there is as much assimilation/absorption of Scandinavian culture (or rejection of any other culture) through ownership of Ikea furniture or Nokia phones as hinted at in the previous few posts. Fashions are just that about as long lasting as legions of urban white kids wearing MC Hammer pants...

Not sure where you picked the Scandinavian bit up at ...but I meant something much broader than mere fashion, though even with fashion, it's been about a century since Thais or any Asians have worn their indigenous clothing... Asian fashion has and probably will for a long time overwhelmingly come from the US or Europe. The Japanese are even more nationalistic than the Thais, yet more than half the girls in Shibuya have their hair died blonde. I'm averse to nationalism or ethnic pride of any sort, whether it be from Thais or Westerners, thus I always find the contradiction comical, as wolf5370 pointed out, when nationalistic Thais who probably wouldn't even befriend a farang, go about wearing all the latest American fashions, applying for American or European universities, while living in country with a legal, governmental, and educational system modeled off the West. That doesn't mean we lowly farangs 'own' or 'represent' those positive attributes of our home countries and should be praised by the Thais as we walk through the streets, it just means we should have mutual respect for each other's cultures.

[Jingthing]

Discrimination based on race is included in the definition of racism so many of the so called arguments on this thread that many Thais aren't racist because they don't lynch us are totally worthless.

[Heng]

I don't think there is as much assimilation/absorption of Scandinavian culture (or rejection of any other culture) through ownership of Ikea furniture or Nokia phones as hinted at in the previous few posts. Fashions are just that about as long lasting as legions of urban white kids wearing MC Hammer pants...

Not sure where you picked the Scandinavian bit up at ...but I meant something much broader than mere fashion, though even with fashion, it's been about a century since Thais or any Asians have worn their indigenous clothing... Asian fashion has and probably will for a long time overwhelmingly come from the US or Europe. The Japanese are even more nationalistic than the Thais, yet more than half the girls in Shibuya have their hair died blonde. I'm averse to nationalism or ethnic pride of any sort, whether it be from Thais or Westerners, thus I always find the contradiction comical, as wolf5370 pointed out, when nationalistic Thais who probably wouldn't even befriend a farang, go about wearing all the latest American fashions, applying for American or European universities, while living in country with a legal, governmental, and educational system modeled off the West. That doesn't mean we lowly farangs 'own' or 'represent' those positive attributes of our home countries and should be praised by the Thais as we walk through the streets, it just means we should have mutual respect for each other's cultures.

Myself I don't think it's a contradiction. These are just inanimate objects, I don't think their origins really matter, nor do people give (and rightly so IMO) any more than a 1-3 mm eyebrow shrug if even that when they read the 'made in...' label.

It's like saying to a jeans clad Palestinian that he shouldn't be throwing rocks at an Israeli grocery store BECAUSE he might be at risk of hitting one of Levi Strauss's descendants.

In actuality there are going to be hundreds of other more pertinent reasons why anyone should afford respect for someone else.

[Chunky1]

What about the fact that while many of you are broke or near broke, many Thais mistakenly assume that you have an education and money? Or is that just another negative cause they charge you 10b for coconut ice cream and not 5b?

Edited August 22, 2010 by Chunky1

[Jingthing]

Positive (and never universally true) false stereotypes are ALSO a manifestation of racism. They also can harm people in subtle or even significant ways.

[bonobo]

Positive (and never universally true) false stereotypes are ALSO a manifestation of racism. They also can harm people in subtle or even significant ways.

I saw a television show in the US which followed Asian students in the US who were not high on the academic achievement level, and the big thing they all mentioned as that as Asians, they were "expected" to do well, and they all had problems by not meeting those expectations.

I also knew a white male Marine who married a black woman. Their oldest son was quite tall and looked very black. He was a science geek, very smart but not too athletic, and he would get ridiculed in school for not being able to play basketball very well.

[Moonrakers]

I find it incredible that despite the ease of using web tools such as google, so many seem to want to comment on a word without actually knowing or checking its definition.

The definition of racism is really quite straight forward and not particularly open to interpretation. Try using google, it really is quite easy to do.

[473geo]

I find it incredible that despite the ease of using web tools such as google, so many seem to want to comment on a word without actually knowing or checking its definition.

The definition of racism is really quite straight forward and not particularly open to interpretation. Try using google, it really is quite easy to do.

I would imagine google has an apt description for concrete which is also not particularly open to interpretation........but concrete appears in many manifestations

[Chunky1]

Positive (and never universally true) false stereotypes are ALSO a manifestation of racism. They also can harm people in subtle or even significant ways.

They can also benefit people in subtle or even significant ways.

[Spee]

Or is that just another negative cause they charge you 10b for coconut ice cream and not 5b?

This has absolutely nothing to do with discrimination or racism.

It has everything to do with an opportunistic seller taking advantage of a naive buyer, something which takes place all the time all over the world.

[Sateev]

I think 'racism' is oversold. Discrimination, based on appearance, of which one's race is only one part, is a natural defense mechanism. Racism is the simpleton's easy catch-word for something MUCH more complex.

Using visual cues about another person's behavior and behavior is a valid way of avoiding unpleasantness and conflict, at a primal level. Enlightenment can transcend such base judgments, but not in 3 seconds in a dark alleyway...

I think what is really more descriptive is the word 'culturalism', wherein we, as culture-bound humans, want to flock together with other like-acculturated humans. Kind of a guarantee that if you live in my neighborhood, where grass is mowed regularly, you won't leave that '53 Mercury up on blocks in the front yard.

And the clues are the greasy overalls, and hands, and beer cans, etc. that we might see in your yard, before the appearance of the Merc. Likewise, wannabe thug-wear, pants around your ass, and the cool-walk might set off alarm bells in people who listen to Mantovanni, and Lawrence Welk.

If the guy with the greasy hands turns out to be a neurosurgeon, you might feel chagrined at your initial judgment. And if the wannabe, actually is just trying to fit in his neighborhood (what's he doing HERE??), while attending Georgetown Law (ok, it's a stretch), you might be a bit more receptive.

Similarly, the frightened, apprehensive look on the Thai bank teller, or Department of Land Transportation clerk, melts away silently, even morphs to a smile, when you wai properly, and speak passable Thai to initiate your transaction.

As I said in a different thread, humans deride what they don't understand, resist admitting it, and take comfort with others who have similar deficiencies.

Human nature.

Sateev

[saraburioz]

OP - how long have you been in Thailand, and where do you teach English?

Well written but drivel.

[saraburioz]

I don't think there is as much assimilation/absorption of Scandinavian culture (or rejection of any other culture) through ownership of Ikea furniture or Nokia phones as hinted at in the previous few posts. Fashions are just that about as long lasting as legions of urban white kids wearing MC Hammer pants...

Quite ironic a Chinese-Thai commenting about whether Thais are rascist or not

Edited August 30, 2010 by saraburioz

[Heng]

[phetaroi]

Human nature.

"Human nature" is not necessarily -- and in fact is often not -- desirable.

[mca]

I also knew a white male Marine who married a black woman.  Their oldest son was quite tall and looked very black.  He was a science geek, very smart but not too athletic, and he would get ridiculed in school for not being able to play basketball very well.

When I was a teen one of my friends was a Chinese Brit and the most mild mannered lad you could know. He never got any shit because everybody assumed he was a Kung <deleted> expert.

He was about as much an expert in Kung <deleted> as I am in flying the Space Shuttle.

[electau]

In Germany between 1933 and 1945 the "final solution" policies for the Jews and Gypsies (the Roma) were based on their race, ie, they were today seen as racist.

Terrorist incidents due to Moslem extremists, ie WTO, Bali, Spain and London were culturally based they were not based on race, they were not racist. A Moslem can be white, brown or black and he could be any nationality. They are based on culture.

eg, " Islamic culture is incompatable with Western democratic values". is not racist.

But one might add that betwen 1933 and 1945 "Christian" was a race.

　

[cyberia]

I remember a little story that  a Thai woman told me sometime ago.

I cannot remember the exact  conversation but nevertheless.

Her cousin and her cousins husband who is with some law enforcement agency they all went to a rest have some dinner.

The guy orders a plate of sea food, shrimp or crab cannot remember,  but what I remembered well is that they brought him a portion that he thought was too  small.

So, he starts yelling "What am I ? A farang."

case closed

[seanocasey]

Discrimination based on race is included in the definition of racism so many of the so called arguments on this thread that many Thais aren't racist because they don't lynch us are totally worthless.

Positive (and never universally true) false stereotypes are ALSO a manifestation of racism. They also can harm people in subtle or even significant ways.

Here’s a laugh – a man in Kent has been awarded thousands of pounds in compensation after being “offended” by some stupid Irish joke.

Cllr Ken Bamber, who sits on Medway Council in Kent, was chatting with Brian Kelly, a Unison rep, when he made the joke.

He told Mr Kelly: “A man walked into a Dublin bar and saw a friend sitting with an empty glass. ‘Paddy can I buy you another’, he asked, to which Paddy replied – ‘now what would I be wanting with another empty glass”"

Mr Kelly, who was born in Ireland, said Cllr Barber had used the word “Paddy” offensively and was being “racist with intent”.

He lodged an official complaint and took the matter to an employment tribunal, which referred the case to the conciliation service Acas.

As my colleague Douglas Murray has said: “In a sane society this joke would lead to laughter or forgetfulness. But Kelly is apparently ‘proud of [his] Irish heritage’ and deems the joke to be ‘racist’.”

The most telling thing about this case is that the man telling the joke was in his late 70s, and that’s because no one tells Irish jokes anymore.

And that’s nothing to do with the existence of the professionally offended brigade, among them the various taxpayer-funded “Irish” community groups founded in the 1980s, all of them ready to claim “racism” with hair-trigger quickness. Like all such self-appointed groups, they screamed loudest when such comedy got closest to the truth – in the case of Irish immigrants their fondness for alcohol.

Jokes about thick Paddy and drunken Mick died out because in the 1990s Ireland became very rich. By the end of that decade the Republic, once a theocratic economic backwater, had higher average earnings than the UK, for the first time in history. Irish immigrants to England, once characterised as country thickos who were good only for building roads and fighting, were by the turn of the century earning more than the natives (and certainly more than people in the Medway, the part of England that gave us the word “chav”). People don’t stop telling jokes because they’re “offensive” – probably the opposite – but because they stop reflecting a certain truth. Anyone who makes Irish jokes now just looks old or stale, which in comedy terms is worse than being racist.

ups sorry forgot to leave URL My link

Edited September 1, 2010 by seanocasey