Uk National Insurance Number For Deceased Ex-Pat Thai Wife

[MAJIC]

I think the advice given to the OP is nonsense. I don't see any way the lady can be issued with an NI Number if she's never been in the UK.

NI NUMBERS , are issued to UK citizens ,

when they seek/start work.

You are misinformed it can and has been done regardless of what you "think"

Elliss is correct, to obtain a NI number the applicant must be resident in the UK,albeit on a Settlement Visa/or another type,she would also need to prove the address she is residing in the UK is genuine.

In most foreign Spouse applications,they will need to attend an Interview,which they will be unable to comply with,if they are not residing in the UK,a Passport with Visa entry and several other documents will also need to be produced.

And finally the NI dept,would no doubt ask:why would you want a NI number for this Lady unless she intended to work in the UK? (with a suitable Visa she can work for 1 year without a NI number) having first learned some passable English and obtained a relevant "Sponsored Visa"????

I can only think that you may require a NI number to reduce her Tax Bill on her husbands Pension (which she now receives a proportion of spousal Pension)by having the normal Tax exempt Allowance that Resident British Citizens receive.

If so? IMO im afraid it does seem a catch 22 situation,namely, the Pension was generated in the UK and will attract UK Taxes at source,and the only way that a NI number can be obtained to claim the allowances in order to reduce taxation, is as already stated above.

Edited August 19, 2010 by MAJIC

[cardholder]

Experience is fine, as long as it is relevant and in date. If not, it is simply history.

That was almost an apology, Mr Leech.

I guess 2010 counts as recent history ?

[cardholder]

I think the advice given to the OP is nonsense. I don't see any way the lady can be issued with an NI Number if she's never been in the UK.

NI NUMBERS , are issued to UK citizens ,

when they seek/start work.

You are misinformed it can and has been done regardless of what you "think"

Elliss is correct, to obtain a NI number the applicant must be resident in the UK,albeit on a Settlement Visa/or another type,she would also need to prove the address she is residing in the UK is genuine.

In most foreign Spouse applications,they will need to attend an Interview,which they will be unable to comply with,if they are not residing in the UK,a Passport with Visa entry and several other documents will also need to be produced.

And finally why would you want a NI number for this Lady unless she intended to work in the UK? (with a suitable Visa she can work for 1 year without a NI number) having first learned some passable English and obtained a relevant "Sponsored Visa"????

Nonsense, MAJIC. It is DWP who arrange the allocation of the NI number. . Did you not read post #23.

In fact have you read ANY posts? This thread is about bereavement benefits, why are you rambling on about visas?

[prakhonchai nick]

Elliss is correct, to obtain a NI number the applicant must be resident in the UK,albeit on a Settlement Visa/or another type,she would also need to prove the address she is residing in the UK is genuine.

In most foreign Spouse applications,they will need to attend an Interview,which they will be unable to comply with,if they are not residing in the UK,a Passport with Visa entry and several other documents will also need to be produced.

And finally the NI dept,would no doubt ask:why would you want a NI number for this Lady unless she intended to work in the UK? (with a suitable Visa she can work for 1 year without a NI number) having first learned some passable English and obtained a relevant "Sponsored Visa"????

I can only think that you may require a NI number to reduce her Tax Bill on her husbands Pension (which she now receives a proportion of spousal Pension)by having the normal Tax exempt Allowance that Resident British Citizens receive.

If so? IMO im afraid it does seem a catch 22 situation,namely, the Pension was generated in the UK and will attract UK Taxes at source,and the only way that a NI number can be obtained to claim the allowances in order to reduce taxation, is as already stated above.

A NI number is automatically issued when bereavement benefits are claimed, and this does not require the claimant to be a British subject, be resident in the UK, or even have ever set foot in the UK.

However this will not help the lady who is the subject of this topic. As Majic states she is neither a British citizen nor resident in the UK and would therefore not be eligible for a Tax Personal Allowance.

She can though, eliminate her UK tax liability since the UK has a double taxation agreement with Thailand. She would be able to receive her pension payment without deduction of UK tax, but would be liable to pay Thai tax on the amount. She would be eligible for a Thai tax personal allowance, but since this would be significantly smaller than the UK personal allowance, she would be paying tax at a lower starting point. Nevertheless the tax % is unlikely to exceed the 20% she is now paying.

[MAJIC]

I think the advice given to the OP is nonsense. I don't see any way the lady can be issued with an NI Number if she's never been in the UK.

NI NUMBERS , are issued to UK citizens ,

when they seek/start work.

You are misinformed it can and has been done regardless of what you "think"

Elliss is correct, to obtain a NI number the applicant must be resident in the UK,albeit on a Settlement Visa/or another type,she would also need to prove the address she is residing in the UK is genuine.

In most foreign Spouse applications,they will need to attend an Interview,which they will be unable to comply with,if they are not residing in the UK,a Passport with Visa entry and several other documents will also need to be produced.

And finally why would you want a NI number for this Lady unless she intended to work in the UK? (with a suitable Visa she can work for 1 year without a NI number) having first learned some passable English and obtained a relevant "Sponsored Visa"????

Nonsense, MAJIC. It is DWP who arrange the allocation of the NI number. . Did you not read post #23.

In fact have you read ANY posts? This thread is about bereavement benefits, why are you rambling on about visas?

Well "Cardholder"One of us hasnt "read ANY Posts"and its not me.

If you take the trouble to re read the Title of this thread,it clearly states:

"Replying to Uk National Insurance Number For Deceased Ex-Pat Thai Wife"

Yes this Thread is also about bereavement benefits,although very helpful to the Lady is in fact Off Topic!

The Allocation of NI numbers is now dealt with by jobcentreplus,part of the DWPso you were nearly right!

My point concerning Visas was:That the lady in question would need to be in the UK to obtain a NI number,in which case she would need a Sponsor and a relevant VISA.

I further pointed out IMO obtaining the relevant NI number would be a catch 22 situation by Post,and probably by not being resident she would not be eligible to have the required NI number.

Edited August 19, 2010 by MAJIC

[prakhonchai nick]

The Allocation of NI numbers is now dealt with by jobcentreplus,part of the DWPso you were nearly right!

I think you will find that the jobcentreplus deal with the allocation of NI numbers for those in the UK. Where bereavement benefits are claimed from overseas, it is the International Pension Centre that deal with the claim and it is they who obtain a NI number (quite possibly through jobcentreplus)

[MAJIC]

Elliss is correct, to obtain a NI number the applicant must be resident in the UK,albeit on a Settlement Visa/or another type,she would also need to prove the address she is residing in the UK is genuine.

In most foreign Spouse applications,they will need to attend an Interview,which they will be unable to comply with,if they are not residing in the UK,a Passport with Visa entry and several other documents will also need to be produced.

And finally the NI dept,would no doubt ask:why would you want a NI number for this Lady unless she intended to work in the UK? (with a suitable Visa she can work for 1 year without a NI number) having first learned some passable English and obtained a relevant "Sponsored Visa"????

I can only think that you may require a NI number to reduce her Tax Bill on her husbands Pension (which she now receives a proportion of spousal Pension)by having the normal Tax exempt Allowance that Resident British Citizens receive.

If so? IMO im afraid it does seem a catch 22 situation,namely, the Pension was generated in the UK and will attract UK Taxes at source,and the only way that a NI number can be obtained to claim the allowances in order to reduce taxation, is as already stated above.

A NI number is automatically issued when bereavement benefits are claimed, and this does not require the claimant to be a British subject, be resident in the UK, or even have ever set foot in the UK.

However this will not help the lady who is the subject of this topic. As Majic states she is neither a British citizen nor resident in the UK and would therefore not be eligible for a Tax Personal Allowance.

She can though, eliminate her UK tax liability since the UK has a double taxation agreement with Thailand. She would be able to receive her pension payment without deduction of UK tax, but would be liable to pay Thai tax on the amount. She would be eligible for a Thai tax personal allowance, but since this would be significantly smaller than the UK personal allowance, she would be paying tax at a lower starting point. Nevertheless the tax % is unlikely to exceed the 20% she is now paying.

I cant remember the exact starting point for Thailand Taxation,but I do know its much less than the 20% UK starting point,so yes I agree that would seem to be the most sensible course to follow,if all else fails.

[Kwasaki]

As to will help all the Widows when it comes to claiming, this is something being worked on and as they say WATCH THIS SPACE!

That is a question I was going to ask, what does the Mrs. do,!!! WATCHING !!

I had 43 years contribution when I finished work so that should be sufficient I guess and I'm told while your between 60 - 65 you automatically get an addition 5yrs.

When I wrote to the pension service about my wife and my concerns before I came back out here after the time I spend in England every year the reply was very vague my daughter is aware of the situation and if anything happens to me she will be on the case.

[prakhonchai nick]

You only get the 5 years NI credits if you are living in the UK

It is however possible to "buy" up to 12 years of NI credits, but at a cost of some £600 a year for most of the past years.

[Kwasaki]

You only get the 5 years NI credits if you are living in the UK

It is however possible to "buy" up to 12 years of NI credits, but at a cost of some £600 a year for most of the past years.

I do live in the UK as well as here in Thailand does that not count.

[prakhonchai nick]

I think it rather depends how long you spend each year in Thailand, and perhaps more importantly whether the NI Benefits Office know.

You must live in the UK for at least 183 days in the tax year to qualify

[JohnLeech]

Experience is fine, as long as it is relevant and in date. If not, it is simply history.

That was almost an apology, Mr Leech.

I guess 2010 counts as recent history ?

Wrong - it was an explanation. "2010" counts as long as it was in this fiscal year; pror to that, anything that did or did not happen is largely irrelevant.

In the light of the misinformation that has been posted and clearly still continues to be posted here* there is little point in trying to correct it or post anything further. Evidently if you want to find out about the current situation concerning pensions, etc, this forum is regrettably not the place to look.

*: "I was told when I peg it my Thai wife gets nothing from the UK goverment because she is not a UK citizen"; "A Thai person has to reside in England for two years apply for residents and when that is given they get a UK. N.I. number"; "the lady in question would need to be in the UK to obtain a NI number"; "obtaining the relevant NI number would be a catch 22 situation by Post,and probably by not being resident she would not be eligible to have the required NI number."; "I'm told while your between 60 - 65 you automatically get an addition 5yrs."; " when you die (assuming you go before your wife) she will get a £2000 Bereavement Payment; plus either a bereavement benefit (similar to the former Widows pension) for a period of 1 year only, or if she has children under 20 and still at school a Widowed Parents Allowance which provided you have paid sufficient NI contributions could be as much as £97 a week.; "She will also be entitled to the UK state pension for herself" etc, etc, etc

[prakhonchai nick]

Sorry Mr Leech

If you are going to criticize information given over the last 42 posts, and I appreciate there has been much misinformation,including from yourself, then please say what is wrong

My last " when you die (assuming you go before your wife) she will get a £2000 Bereavement Payment; plus either a bereavement benefit (similar to the former Widows pension) for a period of 1 year only, or if she has children under 20 and still at school a Widowed Parents Allowance which provided you have paid sufficient NI contributions could be as much as £97 a week.; "She will also be entitled to the UK state pension for herself" etc, etc, etc

PLEASE BE SPECIFIC. WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS INFORMATION.If there is some misinformation in what I wrote I will acknowledge fault.

[MAJIC]

Sorry Mr Leech

If you are going to criticize information given over the last 42 posts, and I appreciate there has been much misinformation,including from yourself, then please say what is wrong

My last " when you die (assuming you go before your wife) she will get a £2000 Bereavement Payment; plus either a bereavement benefit (similar to the former Widows pension) for a period of 1 year only, or if she has children under 20 and still at school a Widowed Parents Allowance which provided you have paid sufficient NI contributions could be as much as £97 a week.; "She will also be entitled to the UK state pension for herself" etc, etc, etc

PLEASE BE SPECIFIC. WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS INFORMATION.If there is some misinformation in what I wrote I will acknowledge fault.

You are most certainly correct "she will get a £2000 Bereavement Payment"of which I have it in writing from the DWP,this is a one off payment for the first year after the Spouses death,which replaced Widows Pension,which has also been replaced with Widowed Parents Pension/Allowance,providing you fit the current rules.

The problem with these type of posts is that many Expats flit off to "Sunny Thailand" thinking all the legislation was set in stone from their departure date from the UK,

Only to find out years later the rules have all changed.

At this moment in time we have a new Government in the UK, so over the next year or so we can probably expect even more changes,yet again!

[prakhonchai nick]

You are most certainly correct "she will get a £2000 Bereavement Payment"of which I have it in writing from the DWP,this is a one off payment for the first year after the Spouses death,which replaced Widows Pension,which has also been replaced with Widowed Parents Pension/Allowance,providing you fit the current rules.

The problem with these type of posts is that many Expats flit off to "Sunny Thailand" thinking all the legislation was set in stone from their departure date from the UK,

Only to find out years later the rules have all changed.

At this moment in time we have a new Government in the UK, so over the next year or so we can probably expect even more changes,yet again!

Thank you Majic for your support.

Things do indeed change. It was not so long ago that Widows Pension was paid continuously until the widow reached state pension age. Now under a new fancy name it is payable for just 1 year - and only providing you are 45+ at the time of widowhood.

No doubt at some time in the future, these bereavement benefits will only be available to UK residents. State pensions will probably go the same way!

[prakhonchai nick]

You are most certainly correct "she will get a £2000 Bereavement Payment"of which I have it in writing from the DWP,this is a one off payment for the first year after the Spouses death,which replaced Widows Pension,which has also been replaced with Widowed Parents Pension/Allowance,providing you fit the current rules.

The problem with these type of posts is that many Expats flit off to "Sunny Thailand" thinking all the legislation was set in stone from their departure date from the UK,

Only to find out years later the rules have all changed.

At this moment in time we have a new Government in the UK, so over the next year or so we can probably expect even more changes,yet again!

Actually Majic the £2000 Bereavement payment did not replace anything. It has always been payable. The Widows pension has gone to be replaced by a Bereavement Benefit payable for just 1 year provided the widow is 45+. The Widowed parents Allowance once again has always been payable -previously called a Widowed Mothers Allowance.

You cannot claim both Bereavement Allowance and Widowed Parents Allowance together.

So to summarise:

Every Widow............................£2000 Bereavement Payment and UK State Pension at some age between 60-66, based on husbands NI

contributions

PLUS

Widow over 45 no children.............Bereavement Benefit...1 year only

Widow with children............Widowed Parents Allowance whilst child either

pre-school or up to 20 and receiving primary or

secondary education (not university)

Edited August 21, 2010 by prakhonchai nick

[prodriver]

You only get the 5 years NI credits if you are living in the UK

Unless the rules have changed regarding NI credits since 2006, I don't think you're right.

I'm looking at a letter that I received from HMR&C dated 31st July, 2006 sent to me at my address in Thailand.

I quote;

Thank you for your letter dated 04/07/2006. I can confirm that voluntary contributions have been paid for the full period 07/04/1996 - 08/04/2006 (10 full tax years). As you will be 60 years of age on 13/10/2006, your account will be awarded with auto credits from the beginning of the tax year in which you turn 60, (09/04/2006) to the beginning of the tax year in which you turn 65, (April 2011) as long as you do not qualify to pay Class 1 contributions, while working for an employer or working in a self-employed capacity, for any period.

A full 5 years of auto credits will contribute a further 5 years to your final Retirement Pension (PR), I hope this answers all your queries.

Yours sincerely,

Mrs C. Hymers

Self-Employment Services

As I've been living in Thailand since 1995 it would therefore appear what you say is incorrect that one has to be living in the UK to get NI credits.

Edited August 21, 2010 by prodriver

[prakhonchai nick]

You only get the 5 years NI credits if you are living in the UK

Unless the rules have changed regarding NI credits since 2006, I don't think you're right.

I'm looking at a letter that I received from HMR&C dated 31st July, 2006 sent to me at my address in Thailand.

I quote;

Thank you for your letter dated 04/07/2006. I can confirm that voluntary contributions have been paid for the full period 07/04/1996 - 08/04/2006 (10 full tax years). As you will be 60 years of age on 13/10/2006, your account will be awarded with auto credits from the beginning of the tax year in which you turn 60, (09/04/2006) to the beginning of the tax year in which you turn 65, (April 2011) as long as you do not qualify to pay Class 1 contributions, while working for an employer or working in a self-employed capacity, for any period.

A full 5 years of auto credits will contribute a further 5 years to your final Retirement Pension (PR), I hope this answers all your queries.

Yours sincerely,

Mrs C. Hymers

Self-Employment Services

It would therefore appear what you say is incorrect that one has to be living in the UK to get NI credits.

I can only say that you are very fortunate.

I applied for credits and was told that they are only available to those resident in the UK

This is the official ruling

A man aged 60 to 65 Class 1 credits You must be either not working, or not earning enough to make the year a 'qualifying year' for State Pension purposes. If you're self-employed, you must have a Small Earnings Exception Certificate – follow the second link below. You must live in the UK for at least 183 days in the tax year.

Since they stated they would award you the credits when you were only 60, they may very well check to see that you were indeed resident in the UK for a minimum of 183 days each TAX year. Be prepared.

And when you come to claim the state pension, they will ask very searching questions as to the time spent outside the UK. This is where you can easily trip up.

A final point - since you will not receive state pension till 2011, you only need 30 contributions for full pension. maybe you will have enough without the credits!

[prodriver]

A final point - since you will not receive state pension till 2011, you only need 30 contributions for full pension. maybe you will have enough without the credits!

Yes, I believe that you are probably right there and that the fact that I have been getting auto credits awarded to me since the age of 60 (rightfully or wrongfully) is somewhat irrelevant now that one only needs 30 qualifying years to get a full state pension.

I will add though, the reason I contacted them in the first place (back in 2006) was because I noticed that the monthly amounts had stopped being debited from my bank account from the April of that year and when I queried why, they informed me that it was because I was in my 60th year and didn't need to pay in anymore contributions as I had sufficient qualifying years. I certainly didn't ask them for NI credits....they gave them to me and they were/are also aware that I no longer reside in the UK.

[Kwasaki]

A final point - since you will not receive state pension till 2011, you only need 30 contributions for full pension. maybe you will have enough without the credits!

Yes, I believe that you are probably right there and that the fact that I have been getting auto credits awarded to me since the age of 60 (rightfully or wrongfully) is somewhat irrelevant now that one only needs 30 qualifying years to get a full state pension.

I will add though, the reason I contacted them in the first place (back in 2006) was because I noticed that the monthly amounts had stopped being debited from my bank account from the April of that year and when I queried why, they informed me that it was because I was in my 60th year and didn't need to pay in anymore contributions as I had sufficient qualifying years. I certainly didn't ask them for NI credits....they gave them to me and they were/are also aware that I no longer reside in the UK.

(Quote)

I live part time here and there 183 days UK, yes of corse I do .

I think in the main the thing is you only need 30 yr cons at this moment in time.

I am also told when you are in receipt of your pension and not in UK for more than 183 days you don't get any rises.

Edited August 23, 2010 by Kwasaki

[prakhonchai nick]

I live part time here and there 183 days UK, yes of corse I do .

I think in the main the thing is you only need 30 yr cons at this moment in time.

I am also told when you are in receipt of your pension and not in UK for more than 183 days you don't get any rises.

If you live permanently in Thailand (or what the Pension Service regard as permanently) then your pension is frozen at the rate it was when you first claimed it. I believe they work on 92/93 days out of the UK and the remainder in the UK to receive the increases. Not 183 day as you had hoped.

[JAS21]

Guys..

Whilst filling in my tax form my wife asked..will it be easy for me to get my widows pension..I have a company pension..when you are not above ground...well not in those words.

She is a Thai but also a British Citizen, however she never worked whilst living in the UK or had a NI number issued. I did enquire but wow they made it so difficult we gave up.....

Speaking to the IR just now they told me that she would need an NI number so as to be able to claim a personal allowance, so as to get 20% relief.

Any ideas of the way forward please.address etc for her to write to please....Google has not been my friend!!

[prakhonchai nick]

Guys..

Whilst filling in my tax form my wife asked..will it be easy for me to get my widows pension..I have a company pension..when you are not above ground...well not in those words.

She is a Thai but also a British Citizen, however she never worked whilst living in the UK or had a NI number issued. I did enquire but wow they made it so difficult we gave up.....

Speaking to the IR just now they told me that she would need an NI number so as to be able to claim a personal allowance, so as to get 20% relief.

Any ideas of the way forward please.address etc for her to write to please....Google has not been my friend!!

I seem to recall having answered this very same question before.

When you die (assuming your wife is still living) she will be entitled to Bereavement benefits. She will claim these (or someone will assist). It will likely take the best part of 6 months, but once settled, she will be allocated a NI number automatically by the Dept of Pensions. This she can then forward to the Inland Revenue to be given a personal allowance.

They will not give a NI number under any other circumstances, unless your wife is in the UK and wants to work.

[Patronus]

Guys..

Whilst filling in my tax form my wife asked..will it be easy for me to get my widows pension..I have a company pension..when you are not above ground...well not in those words.

She is a Thai but also a British Citizen, however she never worked whilst living in the UK or had a NI number issued. I did enquire but wow they made it so difficult we gave up.....

Speaking to the IR just now they told me that she would need an NI number so as to be able to claim a personal allowance, so as to get 20% relief.

Any ideas of the way forward please.address etc for her to write to please....Google has not been my friend!!

I seem to recall having answered this very same question before.

When you die (assuming your wife is still living) she will be entitled to Bereavement benefits. She will claim these (or someone will assist). It will likely take the best part of 6 months, but once settled, she will be allocated a NI number automatically by the Dept of Pensions. This she can then forward to the Inland Revenue to be given a personal allowance.

They will not give a NI number under any other circumstances, unless your wife is in the UK and wants to work.

I can see my missus having a whale of a time with that claim !

[JAS21]

I seem to recall having answered this very same question before.

When you die (assuming your wife is still living) she will be entitled to Bereavement benefits. She will claim these (or someone will assist). It will likely take the best part of 6 months, but once settled, she will be allocated a NI number automatically by the Dept of Pensions. This she can then forward to the Inland Revenue to be given a personal allowance.

They will not give a NI number under any other circumstances, unless your wife is in the UK and wants to work.

Yes..I did read all the topic..I just wondered..that as she is a British Citizen..there might be a different answer..maybe have to write a 'work Spec' on this then.......thanks