Your Thoughts On This Thailand'S Pr And Naturalisation Policies.

[Arkady]

Hi Zoowatch, Thanks for posting and taking an interest in this important topic. I agree that Thailand should review the processes for PR and citizenship, particularly the time taken over applications. In this age of globalization in which productivity gains often come from foreign investment, it is important to be able to attract good quality people to make the country their home and that they feel secure here. There are other related areas too that need attention, notably the Foreign Business Act, the work permit regulations and immigration procedures. It is interesting to think what Thailand would be like, if today’s restrictive laws and procedures on immigration, citizenship, work permits and foreign investment were in place decades ago when the major waves of immigration took place from China and other countries. However, it goes without saying that Thailand’s economy would be a lot poorer and its society would much less culturally diverse than today. The world is very different today but easing the restrictions a notch or two would certainly be beneficial.

I have been in Thailand for over 20 years and was lucky enough to obtain permanent residence when it was much easier than it is now (although it was considered tough at the time) and the process took only one year. I have also applied for Thai citizenship. Many of my comments have already been raised but can nevertheless serve as confirmation.

Permanent Residence

1. The most important thing would be to restore the timeline for applications to at least the status quo that existed until the early 2000s when Purachai, as Interior Minister, revamped the system to make it much tougher and the timeline became unlimited as a result of the Interior Ministry taking over much of the process which was previously controlled by the Immigration Bureau. Before then successful applicants were virtually guaranteed their final approvals within 12 months and unsuccessful candidates were informed in time to reapply again the next year if they wished to (a friend did this and was successful the following year). My application was signed by Banharn after he had already announced his resignation as Interior Minister because the Immigration Bureau was still sufficiently influential and in control of the process to get him to clear the in-basket, rather than upset their timeline. Your timeline of two months to get a response would be great but may be too short to complete the process. It is also important to set a timeline for final approval to avoid putting people in a limbo where they have been approved but may have to wait for years for the minister to sign, as can happen with citizenship applications.

2. Re financial qualifications. These are already quite stringent for PR, although slightly less than your suggestions which seem OK to me since I agree with your thrust of trying to attract the better quality expats to apply. It would be reasonable to make the financial qualifications for those with Thai spouses or children 50% less than for others, as is the case for Thai citizenship.

3. Many would applaud your suggestion of reducing total fees to B55,000 but I think that keeping them where they are (cB180,000 with a 50% discount for those with Thai spouses) or even raising them slightly would be more consistent with the desire to attract the better quality expats and would be less likely to attract domestic opposition.

4. Re knowledge of Thai. Your suggestions are fine. The language test has got harder since it was first introduced by Purachai and may be not too far short of your suggestion already. It involves an interview with a panel. In my day the whole application could be done through an interpreter which I didn’t agree with, since it is normal to expect applicants for PR around the whole to know the national language.

5. Benefits of PR. Most importantly PRs should be allowed the right to work in Thailand without having to apply for a work permit. Certain occupations like retail sales, being a waiter, driving a tuk tuk and making Thai musical instruments or typesetting in Thai characters can remain prohibited even for PRs but professions, such accounting and law, should be opened up to all foreigners whether PRs or not. Foreigners do these jobs here anyway by the thousands, so may as well legalize them (specially the lawyers who seem to break Thai law by practicing it illegally without blinking an eyelid).

6. I like your idea of letting PRs own land up to 1 rai for residential purposes, although I think this would be too much of a political hot potato, as it was when the Democrats tried to allow foreigners married to Thais the same privilege when the 1999 Land Act was being debated. I would suggest allowing only PRs of over 10 years’ standing to own land in this way. That way the numbers would be much less and, if you are going to make it easier to get PR too, it would otherwise be too emotional. The location of the land should be restricted to urban areas and/or a minimum value imposed to prevent PRs from being able to buy up a rai of cheap farm land for under B100,000 to build a house. There should be a tangile financial benefit to the country. The provisions in the 1999 Land Act for foreigners to own up to 1 rai of residential land if they invest over B40 million in approved investments (excluding the land and house) went too far in this respect and ended up as an unworkable fudge as a result of the Democrats’ original bill getting derailed in Parliament. I don’t believe any one has ever been able to buy land under this provision.

7. Re documentation. Much can be done to streamline the documentation of PRs. The current system of documentation hasn’t been changed in decades and PRs have to have 4 Thai official documents, including their work permit and tabien baan. Instead of the Certificate of Residence, issued by Immigration, and the Alien Registration Book, issued by the local police station, it would make far more sense to issue PRs with an electronic PR’s ID card. Most Thais have no idea what PR books are (why should they?) which leads to endless problems for PRs when they try to use their Thai documents to do simple things like opening a bank account.

8. Children of PRs (both parents) are already entitled to Thai citizenship by birth as an automatic right.

9. Re FBA. This is a separate topic but I think the FBA is an unsuccessful experiment left over from the dawn of Asian protectionism in the 60s that does a great deal of damage to Thailand’s competitiveness, in the face of much more liberal investment codes virtually everywhere else in Asia. It should be repealed and replaced with an investment code that protects only sectors that genuinely need to be protected for reasons of national security, such as media, airlines, infrastructure etc. As Korn Chatikavanich has recently stated, there is no justification in protecting a small group of owners of inefficient businesses at the expense of the entire Thai citizenry. All foreigners should thus be able to own 100% of businesses in most sectors. If this is not possible, I would suggest giving PRs the right to own up to 100%.

Citizenship

1. Currently the application fee is B10,000, having been just increased this year from B5,000. Another B500 is payable as a fee for the naturalization certificate. I would have no problem with paying an additional B100,000 or even B200,000 on successful application, if the process were subject to a reasonable maximum timeline, say 12 months. Currently Special Branch does a great job in ensuring the process of checking applicants’ backgrounds by various government agencies is completed within 60 to 90 days. After that the file is forwarded to the Interior Ministry where it disappears into a black hole, sometimes for more than 10 years. In fact there is not much for the ministry to do with the applications because the candidates have already been extensively checked by the police, the National Intelligence Agency, the Office of the Narcotics Control Board etc.

2. Re qualifying period of residence. Your suggestions are actually more stringent than current regulations. PR is required for those without Thai spouses but only 5 years’ of residence is required and time on a work permit without PR can count towards this. The 2008 Nationality Act removed the requirement for males with Thai wives to have PR at all, along with the requirement to have knowledge of the Thai language, i.e. sing the Royal and National Anthems. This was done to level the playing field compared to Thai women with Thai husbands who have had an easier time applying for citizenship than their male counterparts for decades. If you want to increase the residence requirements in conjunction with streamlining the processes for PR and citizenship applications and introducing reasonable timelines (12 months for each), that may be acceptable.

3. Declaring intention to renounced existing citizenship. This requirement was introduced as a ministerial announcement in October 2009. However, I think it is rather counterproductive, as it drives away many of the potentially productive citizens Thailand should be trying to attract. It is also inconsistent with your point that naturalized Thais should have the same rights as other Thais in virtually every respect. The Thai Foreign Ministry falls over backwards to accommodate Thais leaving overseas who obtain other citizenships and even posts detailed instructions on its website as to how they should switch passports when travelling. Luk kreung are also permitted to have dual nationality. So it is somewhat discriminatory to allow different classes of Thai citizenship and give inferior rights to those who have been handpicked for citizenship, compared to those who never have to go through any process of quality control. If dual nationality is to be specifically outlawed, the prohibition should apply to all Thai citizens. However, if you look at countries that have this prohibition you will see that it causes a lot of pain and misgivings by forcing people to cut the ties with their country of origin. For example Chinese and Indian nationals living overseas face a huge dilemma when they have to choose between the citizenship of their country of adoption or their country of origin. Even paranoid little Singapore is said to the examining the question of allowing dual nationality due to concerns that it may be losing competitiveness. In their case, the prohibition probably owes more to Singapore’s split from the Federation of Malaysia and the desire to force people to choose whether they were Singaporean or Malaysian than anything else. The only country in Asia that officially allows dual nationality for its citizens by descent but not for its citizens by naturalization is Taiwan (which previously didn’t allow naturalization at all for non-Chinese, so I suppose even this represents some kind of advance). This causes huge resentment in view of the massive communities of openly dual national Taiwanese living in the US and other countries.

4. Language requirements. I have no problem with your suggestion or something similar. The language test has actually been made tougher this year and simple reading and writing tests have been introduced for the first time. Although the 2008 Nationality Act exempted those with Thai wives from having to pass these tests, it would perhaps have been more reasonable to give them a “discount”. However, this is in practice what happens because it is impossible to get through the interviews without at least intermediate spoken Thai.

5. Civic lessons. A good idea but I think they should be conducted in Thai, not English.

6. Rights of naturalized Thais. In fact their rights are already the same as Thais by birth in most respects with the exception of political rights (they are not allowed to vote for 5 years and can never hold political office). However, as already mentioned, their rights are unequal in the grey area of dual citizenship and the discretion of the Interior Minister to revoke their citizenship for “bad behavior”. The ability to revoke citizenship should be retained in the same way as it is in other countries with the crimes that result in revocation clearly specified and the process being a judicial one, rather than at ministerial discretion. I don’t think there is any constitutional ban on naturalized Thais serving in the armed forces or other positions that might be regarded as sensitive to national security and I disagree with introducing such a ban. Some of these functions might benefit greatly from the knowledge of foreign languages and culture as a result of employing naturalized Thais. The US, for example, employs large numbers of naturalized Americans, in the armed forces, foreign service etc and could probably not function in certain areas without them. There are allowed even to serve in many government positions as openly dual nationals, provided that their other nationality is of a country friendly to the US. I also think that naturalized Thais should have voting rights immediately and be able to hold public office, although I would have no problem in reserving the premiership for those who are born Thai and perhaps ministerial positions as well. I disagree with exempting naturalized Thais from military service, although most can easily avoid anyway it by waiting till after they are 30 before becoming Thai. Male children who apply for citizenship concurrently with their parents could and should, however, be drafted like any other Thai.

Re comparisons with other countries. The Malaysia My Second Home programme is something that officials pay a lot of attention to. Retirees are attracted to settle in Malaysia with 10 year renewable residence permits and the right to buy freehold land for residential purposes up to a certain size and at a minimum cost. The Philippines also makes it relatively simple for foreign retirees and expat workers to get PR, although land ownership is not allowed. In Singapore PR is also a transparent process.

Re people from neighbouring countries. Provisions that were previously piecemeal for different ethnic groups via various cabinet resolutions were collated and enshrined in the 2008 Nationality Act, allowing those born in Thailand to alien parents between 1972 and 1992 to obtain Thai nationality at the discretion of the minister, if they can demonstate long standing ties with Thailand. The logical solution to my mind would be to extend this legislation to allow children born in Thailand to alien parents after 1992 the right to Thai nationality but through a judicial process, rather than ministerial discretion which always results in a black hole of prevarication and lethargy. Those born elsewhere should be given more secure rights to work in occupations deemed necessary to the economy and perhaps should be allowed to qualify for PR under lower financial requirements after maybe 10 years or more. Children born in Thailand could perhaps be allowed to apply for citizenship at the age of 10, provided they have lived continuously in Thailand and attended Thai schools. This would give the them the right to attend government Mathayom and would make productive citizens of people who look and sound Thai and would otherwise be forced into the black economy or into crime. Parents of Thai citizens should be able to apply for PR on relatively easy terms to prevent break up of families.

Re work permits and visas for expats in general. This needs to be urgently revamped. The system of non-immigrant visas and work permits that have be constantly renewed or extended for a few months at a time needs to be scrapped and replaced with a single visa and work permit combined like Singapore’s three year professional visit passes. This should be issued by a single authority to obviate the overlapping authority of the Immigration Bureau and the Labour Ministry. As you say 90 day reporting, a revolutionary decree that was mysteriously revived for unclear reasons, should be scrapped at once.

[kriswillems]

If I compare the visa rules of Thailand with those of western countries I think that:

- Thailand is very flexible in providing tourist visas but for Thai people it's hard to get a tourist visa to a western country.

- Thailand is very flexible in providing visas based on age (50+) and savings (800000+ baht on own account). Most western countries don't have this kind of visa.

- It very easy to get a visa based on education in Thailand, you've to study only 4 hours per week and there are no financial requirements. Most western countries are very strict on providing student visas and the financial requirements are though.

- In Thailand it's rather hard to get permanent residency based on marriage. Most Thai people that live in Europe or USA have either permanent residency or got a second nationality. There are very few people married to a Thai that got permanent residency in Thailand or Thai nationality.

- The complexity of the process of obtaining a business visa in Thailand and most western countries is about the same.

Edited November 12, 2010 by kriswillems

[Richard4849]

For me, the journey from garden variety expat to PR to Thai citizen took exactly 10 years, and I am not even married to a Thai woman. There were lots of hoops to jump through, but nothing too onerous. I feel grateful to Thailand for the way I have been welcomed and treated over the years, and ultimately accepted as a full-fledged Thai national.

[Richard4849]

Sorry, that should have been 13 years, not 10.

3 years as regular expat

2 years to process PR application

5 years as PR

3 years to process citizenship application

[Arkady]

Unfortunately there has been an important new development, albeit not a positive one. Immigration is currently telling potential PR applicants that the window for applications, normally the second half of December, will not be opening at all in 2010.

To me this just emphasizes that the most important first step would be for the Interior Ministry to set about implementing its existing regulations in a timely and transparent manner. While there is much that could be improved in the regulations for both PR and citizenship, the existing ones are not really that bad at all. The real problem lies in the implementation of the application processes at the ministry - Immigration and Special Branch actually do a fantastic job in the initial processing. There would be little point in revising all the regulations and then allowing the vast majority of applications to continue to be dropped into a black hole at the ministry after extremely thorough initial screenings have already been carried out respectively by Immigration and Special Branch police, as well as other agencies.

Edited November 22, 2010 by Arkady

[Kwasaki]

Some of us have families we love, and make personal sacrifices to support them in Thailand. We did and do this happily, out of of love and respect for our families. Now that we are getting old, and want to retire, all we ask is the right to live quietly and peacefully with our loved ones, our families in Thailand. so, please, the next time you talk to your friends, just let them know there are a lot of foreigners who only want that to be possible...to live out our last years in Thailand with our families and friends.

Once again, thanks for giving me and others a chance...no matter how futile...to

respond to your questions.

[ a Previous quote]

Hear him, hear him....

...thanks for succinct post mate....sure lots of expats feel the same. It would be so nice not to have to worry about visa issues...

..just let me live in peace with my family and friends ...contributing to the economy albeit in a small way and no strain on the resources of Thailand

...thanks to the OP also

[a Previous quote]

Zoomy l agree with this guy 100%, and to your mates with there Ph D's from UK/US who get depressed reading Thai-visa, they can just stop reading it nice for them isn't it. Every bloody year we have go through the same dreary silly games with Thai immigration going backward and forwards with paperwork and more paperwork just so they can make us feel that we can get kick out anytime or trap us and caused us to spend a lot more money than necessary.

My Thai wife doesn't get treated this way in England once she's there the way your Thai government treats us.

l don't want Residency or citizenship l just want to retire here with peace of mind but l will have probably have pop my clogs before guys like you and your mates have done anything and don't it personally pal.:jap:

Edited November 22, 2010 by Kwasaki

[Richard4849]

Sorry, but I don't get it. The process for obtaining a retirement visa is very clear cut. Of the dozens of friends who hold it, I have never heard any of them complain about mistreatment.

[Arkady]

Sorry, but I don't get it. The process for obtaining a retirement visa is very clear cut. Of the dozens of friends who hold it, I have never heard any of them complain about mistreatment.

I have also not heard of any major problems from friends living here on retirement and marriage extensions for many years, although they say they need to keep informed of the frequent rule changes. I believe most of the problems are from people who have difficulty showing the required level of income or assets and one often reads complaints along the lines that they are being asked to show an income that is several times the average Thai wage, even though this is not a relevant benchmark for visa requirements. It would be nice if Thailand offered a retirement visa scheme like Malaysia's but that also requires significant minimum assets and income levels. Thailand's financial requirements are extremely modest compared to those of all farang countries which usually only offer settlement visas requiring big bucks to retirees, rather than annual extensions on relatively easy terms.

Edited November 22, 2010 by Arkady

[Arkady]

I was curious to know the origin of the current system of permanent residence and did some research. It seems that the Alien Registration Books pre-date the first Immigration Act of 1927 which lead to the creation of the Immigration Department and the start of immigration controls. This probably explains the two parallel systems of Alien Registration Books and Certificates of Residence. Even though Thais didn’t have ID cards at this time, as a result of extensive triad criminal activity the police felt the need to issue Thai language IDs to the vast numbers of Chinese immigrants in Thailand, many of whom didn't have passports or other identity documents from China or the territories whence they came. Thus all aliens over the age of 12 were obliged to apply for an Alien Registration Book and carry it at all times. This regulation is still in force under the 1952 Registration of Aliens Act, although the number of aliens eligible for registration has been vastly reduced. Although any one born in Thailand was entitled to Thai nationality, many Chinese opted for Alien Registration Books for their sons, which voided their right to Thai nationality permanently, because they didn't want them to be conscripted into the Thai army and anyway intended eventually to move their families back to China. Chinese girls were often registered for Thai nationality but lost their Thai nationality automatically, if they married a Chinese man. Thus the number, of aliens included a large number of Chinese born in Thailand who retained their Chinese identity and had either opted against Thai nationality or lost it upon marriage.

The Immigration Department in the late 20s introduced its system of Certificates of Residence which were originally issued to all arriving immigrants who could demonstrate that had the means of earning a living in Thailand. Disabled people and the insane were banned from entry, unless only temporary entry was sort, since they were viewed as unable to earn a living, although abled bodied workers were able to bring in dependent wives, minor children and parents. Since the Working of Aliens Act and Alien Business Act didn't come in until the 70s, a Certificate of Residence was equivalent to a green card and permitted the immigrant to perform any kind of work, open his own business and live permanently in Thailand. Before leaving Thailand the immigrant had to return the Certificate of Residence and apply for a Certificate of Re-entry which he could use to re-enter Thailand within a specified time period, like today's re-entry endorsements in the Certificate of Residence.

The big change happened during the nationalistic anti Chinese period under Field Marshall Pibunsongkram, an admirer of Hitler and Mussolini, despite the fact that he was partly Chinese himself. In the first half of the 20th century Chinese immigrants flooded into Thailand at a rate of up to 10,000 a year. Earlier Thai governments had viewed immigration as a good way of solving labour shortages and increasing tax revenues from the commercial activities that Chinese did so well. After the communist takeover of China, Chinese emigration stepped up significantly and Pibun decided it had to be severely curbed to prevent the formation of an underground communist fifth column in Thailand. Thus the 1952 Immigration Act started the quota system for permanent residence that exists virtually unchanged today under the 1979 Immigration Act, restricting each nationality to 100 new residence certificates a year. Temporary visas were allowed under the 1952 Immigration Act for purposes of business, transit, study, tourism and medical treatment but these were restricted to 30 days or 6 months, if signed personally by the Director of Immigration. Incidentally, the 1950 Nationality Act had already tightened the screws on the Chinese by increasing the application fee for naturalization to 5,000 baht, equivalent to US$400 at the prevailing exchange rate and a sum of money out of the reach of most immigrants at the time. This fee remained in place for 60 years and was only increased to 10,000 baht this year.

So Thailand actually used to have something akin to a green card system in the form of the Certificate of Residence that was readily available to any foreigner capable of earning a living until 1950. After that it remained as the quota system which must have meant that all nationalities except Chinese were relatively free to come and work or start businesses in Thailand until the 70s when work permits and the Alien Business Act were introduced. Since then the Certificate of Residence has been transformed into an elitist thing granted to a privileged few who have already been working legally in Thailand for some years before applying. The quota system has been made redundant by the fact that unlimited professionals of any nationality may enter Thailand and stay for an unlimited period of time as long they are still employed. After that they may still remain till the rest of their lives on retirement extensions. Meanwhile, a new labour shortage has developed that has been filled by over a million unskilled workers from neighbouring countries permitted by intermittent emergency legislation which makes a mockery of the 100 person quotas on grounds of national security. Despite the short term nature of the legislation covering foreign labour, this is going to be as impossible to turn back as has proved in Germany and other developed countries.

Looking at the history serves to confirm the feeling of Zoowatch and his friends that it is time to reform the system of permanent residence which incorporates legislation from the 20s to the early 50s virtually unchanged. In fact the actual forms and books used are also virtually unchanged for decades, despite advances in ID technology since then and, indeed, the development of a system of ID cards for Thai citizens. The system of work permits and non-immigrant visas that can be rolled over indefinitely has also been developed for foreigners without taking into account the pre-existing system of Certificates of Residence and Alien Registration Books, the latter of which are virtually unusable as personal identification in Thailand despite the long standing requirement that they should be carried at all times as personal ID. Perhaps the powers that be have decided that the system of permanent residence is indeed now redundant and wish to expunge it from new versions of the Immigration Act and Registration of Aliens Act. Who can say? The 2008 Working of Aliens Act allows for two year work permits (in practice virtually impossible to obtain except for large public companies) and the Immigration Act of 1979 has always allowed for two year non-immigrant visas for business purposes (also virtually impossible to obtain). The 2008 Nationality Act now allows foreigners with Thai wives to apply for Thai citizenship without obtaining a Certificate of Residence and Alien Registration Book first. Perhaps it is viewed that the possibility of two year business visas and work permits combined with the possibility of naturalization for those married to Thais, whose children will automatically be assimilated and pose little threat to Thainess, will be sufficient in future. Some more tweaks to legislation to allow a combined work permit and business visa from 1-5 years, a retirement visa system like Malaysia’s and to allow foreigners without Thai spouses to apply for naturalization after 10 years on a working visa may in fact be all that would be necessary to please just about everyone. However, that would require a great deal of coordination between ministries and departments that could only be achieved from the prime minister's level. Meanwhile, the limbo is likely to continue.

Edited November 26, 2010 by Arkady

[tombkk]

Great research Arkady, thanks a lot!

The 2008 Working of Aliens Act allows for two year work permits (in practice virtually impossible to obtain except for large public companies) and the Immigration Act of 1979 has always allowed for two year non-immigrant visas for business purposes (also virtually impossible to obtain).

I have a two-year visa and work permit. I don't think the company (admittedly a Thai company with BOI promotion, but family-owned and not publicly traded) did anything "special", as they pride themselves in being squeaky-clean.

Unfortunately, I'll leaved the company at the end of this month but they will be my major customer. I do think that my new WP will be issued for only a year, as the new comany is not BOI promoted.

[Richard4849]

Great research Arkady, thanks a lot!

The 2008 Working of Aliens Act allows for two year work permits (in practice virtually impossible to obtain except for large public companies) and the Immigration Act of 1979 has always allowed for two year non-immigrant visas for business purposes (also virtually impossible to obtain).

I have a two-year visa and work permit. I don't think the company (admittedly a Thai company with BOI promotion, but family-owned and not publicly traded) did anything "special", as they pride themselves in being squeaky-clean.

Unfortunately, I'll leaved the company at the end of this month but they will be my major customer. I do think that my new WP will be issued for only a year, as the new comany is not BOI promoted.

I was also given a two-year work permit (without requesting it) last time I renewed about a year ago. Small company, no BOI, no nothing.

[tombkk]

I have a two-year visa and work permit. I don't think the company (admittedly a Thai company with BOI promotion, but family-owned and not publicly traded) did anything "special", as they pride themselves in being squeaky-clean.

Unfortunately, I'll leaved the company at the end of this month but they will be my major customer. I do think that my new WP will be issued for only a year, as the new comany is not BOI promoted.

I was also given a two-year work permit (without requesting it) last time I renewed about a year ago. Small company, no BOI, no nothing.

I guess at that time, you were already a Permanent Resident. It's always easier with a PR cert.

[Richard4849]

I have a two-year visa and work permit. I don't think the company (admittedly a Thai company with BOI promotion, but family-owned and not publicly traded) did anything "special", as they pride themselves in being squeaky-clean.

Unfortunately, I'll leaved the company at the end of this month but they will be my major customer. I do think that my new WP will be issued for only a year, as the new comany is not BOI promoted.

I was also given a two-year work permit (without requesting it) last time I renewed about a year ago. Small company, no BOI, no nothing.

I guess at that time, you were already a Permanent Resident. It's always easier with a PR cert.

Yes, that is true. I had been a PR for seven years at that point. This was the first time I received a two-year work permit.

[OJAS]

I won’t repeat points which other respondents have made, and with which I largely agree. My twopennyworth on this whole matter is as follows:-

(1) 90-day address reporting, if it has to remain in this form, to be possible by internet/email (as well as in person or by snail mail).

(2) A 35% hike in the monthly income requirement for what are presently retirement extensions (from 65,000 THB to 100,000 THB) would seem disproportionately large when compared to the proposed 20% increase in the annual income requirement (from 800,000 THB to 1,000,000 THB). In my view, the monthly increase should be no greater than 20,000 THB to 85,000 THB, to keep it in roughly in line with the proposed annual increase.

(3) In any event, the present trend in favour of the THB appreciating in value against most western currencies – which is causing difficulties for many retiree western expats in meeting even the current income requirements – needs to be borne in mind in any resetting of the existing criteria. As the global economic balance of power shifts away from Europe and America towards Asia, things are only likely to get worse (rather than better) in the longer term from the Western perspective IMHO.

(4) There needs to be greater consistency between (and even within) immigration offices as to how the rules are interpreted and applied in practice. Thaivisa is littered with postings relating to what is permitted by Immigration Office (or Officer) X but not by Immigration Office (or Officer) Y. If the existing maze were simplified, that would certainly help – although I suspect that fundamental training (and, possibly, recruitment & retention) issues are also involved here.

Finally, I would like to join other respondents in wishing the OP well in his efforts. Having worked for the UK Government prior to my retirement 3 years ago, I know only too well how much of an uphill task it can often be in persuading ministerial masters of the merits of innovative proposals.

[tombkk]

I won't repeat points which other respondents have made, and with which I largely agree. My twopennyworth on this whole matter is as follows:-

(1) 90-day address reporting, if it has to remain in this form, to be possible by internet/email (as well as in person or by snail mail).

(2) A 35% hike in the monthly income requirement for what are presently retirement extensions (from 65,000 THB to 100,000 THB) would seem disproportionately large when compared to the proposed 20% increase in the annual income requirement (from 800,000 THB to 1,000,000 THB). In my view, the monthly increase should be no greater than 20,000 THB to 85,000 THB, to keep it in roughly in line with the proposed annual increase.

(3) In any event, the present trend in favour of the THB appreciating in value against most western currencies – which is causing difficulties for many retiree western expats in meeting even the current income requirements – needs to be borne in mind in any resetting of the existing criteria. As the global economic balance of power shifts away from Europe and America towards Asia, things are only likely to get worse (rather than better) in the longer term from the Western perspective IMHO.

(4) There needs to be greater consistency between (and even within) immigration offices as to how the rules are interpreted and applied in practice. Thaivisa is littered with postings relating to what is permitted by Immigration Office (or Officer) X but not by Immigration Office (or Officer) Y. If the existing maze were simplified, that would certainly help – although I suspect that fundamental training (and, possibly, recruitment & retention) issues are also involved here.

Finally, I would like to join other respondents in wishing the OP well in his efforts. Having worked for the UK Government prior to my retirement 3 years ago, I know only too well how much of an uphill task it can often be in persuading ministerial masters of the merits of innovative proposals.

Kindly allow me (who doesn't know a thing) to observe as follows:

1.) I don't know who came up with this 90-day reporting. It needs to be done away wiith.

2.) I haven't heard about this hike in monthly income requirements. Where did you hear this? Can you post a weblink?

3.) The global trend works in favour of Thailand. They don't need to court foreigners any more. Of course this works not exactly in our favour. But then, look at the Thai people who become residents in the US or the EU. Isn't it time for the Thai government to reciprocate the favour?

4.) Coordination of the rules and practices of the immigration offices is something the Thai government is working on.

[Richard4849]

I may be in the minority here, but I think Thailand is remarkably generous with foreigners -- who can basically come and stay for life with relatively little problems. A visa run every few months, and that's it.

I'm also living proof that an ordinary guy can get PR, then citizenship, if you really want it.

People talk about Thai people becoming naturalized in the US, EU, etc., as if it is easy. It's not easy -- it still takes years and years.

And of course, the hurdles a normal Thai faces trying to visit those places as a simple tourist are light years away from how just about any nationality can stroll into Thailand with nothing but a tourist visa and a knapsack, and stay pretty much forever.

[OJAS]

1.) I don't know who came up with this 90-day reporting. It needs to be done away wiith.

I totally agree. All I was saying that, at the very least, this requirement could be eased by making it possible for reports to be filed online.

2.) I haven't heard about this hike in monthly income requirements. Where did you hear this? Can you post a weblink?

See the OP's first post in this thread, where he refers to a possible monthly income requirement of 100,000 THB for permanent residents (who, I assume, he is tarring with the same brush as non-immigrants given his non-reference to the latter).

3.) The global trend works in favour of Thailand. They don't need to court foreigners any more. Of course this works not exactly in our favour. But then, look at the Thai people who become residents in the US or the EU. Isn't it time for the Thai government to reciprocate the favour?

One way they could do this would be through retaining the existing income requirements (800,000 THB bank balance and/or 65,000 THB monthly income) for retirees who moved to Thailand before the date when any new rules came into force. There is a precedent for this already in that that non-immigrant retirees who moved to Thailand before 21 October 1998 are subject to less stringent income requirements (bank balance of at least 200,000 THB and/or monthly income of at least 20,000 THB in the case of retirees aged 60 or over; bank balance of at least 500,000 THB and/or monthly income of at least 50,000 THB in the case of under-60's) - see Police Order 777/2551 for the current rules.

4.) Coordination of the rules and practices of the immigration offices is something the Thai government is working on.

In which case we can confidently expect any change to be implemented "in the fullness of time" and "at the appropriate juncture" (to quote Yes Minister)!

Edited November 28, 2010 by OJAS

[Arkady]

I have a two-year visa and work permit. I don't think the company (admittedly a Thai company with BOI promotion, but family-owned and not publicly traded) did anything "special", as they pride themselves in being squeaky-clean.

Unfortunately, I'll leaved the company at the end of this month but they will be my major customer. I do think that my new WP will be issued for only a year, as the new comany is not BOI promoted.

I was also given a two-year work permit (without requesting it) last time I renewed about a year ago. Small company, no BOI, no nothing.

I guess at that time, you were already a Permanent Resident. It's always easier with a PR cert.

Yes, that is true. I had been a PR for seven years at that point. This was the first time I received a two-year work permit.

I applied for a two year WP as a PR, quite soon after the new law came in allowing for two year WPs. I was working for a small company and was rejected without being given a reason for the "phu yai's decision". The official had originally said I stood a fair chance to get it because I was a PR. Next time I applied for a two year WP working for a Pcl and it was granted. By way of contrast, the official told me at the time that I probably wouldn't get it but then she noticed the company was a Pcl and changed her mind, saying the phu yai were automatically approving them for very large companies and Plcs automatically qualified. Maybe BOI companies also qualified and perhaps since then they have relaxed things further for PRs, as they should. PR originally designated some one who was granted the right to settle permanently and work or do business in Thailand I can't think for the life of me why we were ever included in the WP law when it came in in the 70s.

Has any one ever been issued a two year non-immigrant B visa?

[Mario2008]

Two year non-B are I believe for BOI-approved companies (not sure about this) and normally issued to people not residing in Thailand but regularly doing business here. Believe they can even get a 3 year non-B, but that is rare.

[tombkk]

2.) I haven't heard about this hike in monthly income requirements. Where did you hear this? Can you post a weblink?

See the OP's first post in this thread, where he refers to a possible monthly income requirement of 100,000 THB for permanent residents (who, I assume, he is tarring with the same brush as non-immigrants given his non-reference to the latter).

I just re-read the OP, and you are right. That's what Zoowatch said he'd heard.

What are the chances of all these suggestions being implemented? Is ZW's posting on ThaiVisa part of the survey process, to gauge the reposnse of foreigners, or is it completely irrelevant what we say here and we are discussing rumours?

4.) Coordination of the rules and practices of the immigration offices is something the Thai government is working on.

In which case we can confidently expect any change to be implemented "in the fullness of time" and "at the appropriate juncture" (to quote Yes Minister)!

Agree. ;-)

[TheChiefJustice]

Thank you, Zoowatch, for your very interesting post. I think it makes a lot of sense. I particularly like the fact that there would be a set period in which a decision would be made. That is something now lacking.

The only two issues for citizenship that I would disagree with are the 10 year PR requirement and the renunciation of other citizenship. 10 years is, in my view, too long. I think a period of 5 years would be sufficient, as it is currently. Also, I think that renunciation of original citizenship would cause most people not to apply. Hopefully, that is not the intention.

Please have a word to your friends about my application, which has been awaiting the Minister's signature for three and a half years! Luckily, I am very patient! ;-)

[Arkady]

Two year non-B are I believe for BOI-approved companies (not sure about this) and normally issued to people not residing in Thailand but regularly doing business here. Believe they can even get a 3 year non-B, but that is rare.

I stand corrected. Yes, the Immigration Act allows for a two year visa only in the case of investment: Section 34 (6), "Investing under the concurrence of the ministries and departments concerned." The maximum temporary visa for business is one year. There is no reference in the Act to a 3-year visa, although perhaps there are BoI regulations that permit that.

[Arkady]

Just a thought but there is currently a lot of stuff in the local newspapers about Asean Economic Community that is supposed to come into being in 2015 and what a great opportunity various government officials and business gurus think that ought to be Thai companies. The AEC template requires the demolition of most barriers to investment and trade in goods and services and freedom of movement of skilled labour (freeing up movement of unskilled labour was deemed to be too much of a hot potato and wasn't included). Now we are only four years away from the deadline I wonder how this is going to affect the broader issues of foreign investment, work permits and visas. Theoretically Thailand will have to open up the services sector to 100% ASEAN ownership and allow all types of ASEAN professional to practice freely. One would think it would be an opportunity to review the whole canvas of foreign investment, restricted professions, work permits and visas (including PR) for everyone, not just for ASEAN.

Things seem to be moving slowly so far. Tariffs on most products from ASEAN were slashed to 5% from January this year but some businessmen report that their goods are rotting in customs godowns, since Thai customs refuse to clear goods at 5% duty. The professions of nursing, architecture, engineering etc were supposed to have been freed up in 2009 but I don't think there has been any move to allow these professions to practice in Thailand and probably not in other ASEAN countries either. The Ministry of Labour was supposed to publish a new list of restricted occupations pursuant to the 2008 Working of Aliens Act by February 2010 but I haven't seen one yet and have a feeling that they have ignored the deadline and not yet published the new list. Perhaps there is a problem in making the new list consistent with obligations to the AEC. Looking at older treaties as drivers of domestic reform doesn't leave much room for optimism. When Thailand acceded to GATS in 1996 it was allowed to maintain its Treaty of Amity and Economic Cooperation with the US for 10 years under a most favoured nation provision but the special treatment of American investors in the services sector had to come to an end in 2006. The expectation of GATS was the situation would be resolved by provided all GATS members with the same privileges that Americans enjoy under the treaty, thereby making the treaty redundant. In fact it would be relatively easy to level the playing field by deleting most sectors from Annex 3 of the Foreign Business Act which can be done through a simple ministerial regulation not requiring an Act of Parliament. Anyway 2006 came and went and the treaty providing special privileges to Americans to own their own service businesses still exists. However, it has been taken into account that GATS has been an utter failure and is regarded by lesser developed countries as an attempt to take advantage of them. Maybe things will go differently amongst ASEAN members, although there is also a big divide between rich and poor countries within ASEAN.

Edited November 29, 2010 by Arkady

[Mario2008]

Two year non-B are I believe for BOI-approved companies (not sure about this) and normally issued to people not residing in Thailand but regularly doing business here. Believe they can even get a 3 year non-B, but that is rare.

I stand corrected. Yes, the Immigration Act allows for a two year visa only in the case of investment: Section 34 (6), "Investing under the concurrence of the ministries and departments concerned." The maximum temporary visa for business is one year. There is no reference in the Act to a 3-year visa, although perhaps there are BoI regulations that permit that.

There is a 3 year non-B visa, but it is a multiple entry visa for business travelers. I believe it forbids working in Thailand, you can only do business on it and won't get a work permit.

[tombkk]

Theoretically Thailand will have to open up the services sector to 100% ASEAN ownership and allow all types of ASEAN professional to practice freely. One would think it would be an opportunity to review the whole canvas of foreign investment, restricted professions, work permits and visas (including PR) for everyone, not just for ASEAN.

No. Why would you think that? The regulations easing trade and services within ASEAN have nothing to do with non-ASEAN countries. Remember that ASEAN is modeled after the EU (i.e. now coming to the EEC stage which is appropriately called AEC), and I think it is fair to assume that nationals of non-member countries will not automatically receive any new privileges.

Things seem to be moving slowly so far. Tariffs on most products from ASEAN were slashed to 5% from January this year but some businessmen report that their goods are rotting in customs godowns, since Thai customs refuse to clear goods at 5% duty.

Where did you hear this? Customs duties are reduced as per schedule, and Thai customs applies this. I'm in the logistics business, and I have not heard of a single case in which the customs officer refused to apply a reduced tariff rate.

But this is certainly stuff for another thread.

[Arkady]

Theoretically Thailand will have to open up the services sector to 100% ASEAN ownership and allow all types of ASEAN professional to practice freely. One would think it would be an opportunity to review the whole canvas of foreign investment, restricted professions, work permits and visas (including PR) for everyone, not just for ASEAN.

No. Why would you think that? The regulations easing trade and services within ASEAN have nothing to do with non-ASEAN countries. Remember that ASEAN is modeled after the EU (i.e. now coming to the EEC stage which is appropriately called AEC), and I think it is fair to assume that nationals of non-member countries will not automatically receive any new privileges.

Things seem to be moving slowly so far. Tariffs on most products from ASEAN were slashed to 5% from January this year but some businessmen report that their goods are rotting in customs godowns, since Thai customs refuse to clear goods at 5% duty.

Where did you hear this? Customs duties are reduced as per schedule, and Thai customs applies this. I'm in the logistics business, and I have not heard of a single case in which the customs officer refused to apply a reduced tariff rate.

But this is certainly stuff for another thread.

It was just my thinking that, since they are supposed to open up to ASEAN professionals, it would be logical to review the whole issue of restricted occupations which the Labour Ministry is anyway obligated to do by the 2008 Working of Aliens Act. The current list of restricted occupations is unchanged since the original legislation that introduced work permits and restricted occupations in the 70s. Thousands of foreign lawyers, engineers, architects and accountants work in Thailand illegally anyway by pretending to be consultants or trainers. The only difference is that they can't sign any plans or plead in court which most would rather not do anyway. So it would be mainly a case of legislation catching up with the reality and the needs of the economy. Sorry I can't disclose the source of the information on tariffs. Maybe some companies have just been unlucky or used the wrong clearing agents.

[tombkk]

Theoretically Thailand will have to open up the services sector to 100% ASEAN ownership and allow all types of ASEAN professional to practice freely. One would think it would be an opportunity to review the whole canvas of foreign investment, restricted professions, work permits and visas (including PR) for everyone, not just for ASEAN.

No. Why would you think that? The regulations easing trade and services within ASEAN have nothing to do with non-ASEAN countries. Remember that ASEAN is modeled after the EU (i.e. now coming to the EEC stage which is appropriately called AEC), and I think it is fair to assume that nationals of non-member countries will not automatically receive any new privileges.

Things seem to be moving slowly so far. Tariffs on most products from ASEAN were slashed to 5% from January this year but some businessmen report that their goods are rotting in customs godowns, since Thai customs refuse to clear goods at 5% duty.

Where did you hear this? Customs duties are reduced as per schedule, and Thai customs applies this. I'm in the logistics business, and I have not heard of a single case in which the customs officer refused to apply a reduced tariff rate.

But this is certainly stuff for another thread.

It was just my thinking that, since they are supposed to open up to ASEAN professionals, it would be logical to review the whole issue of restricted occupations which the Labour Ministry is anyway obligated to do by the 2008 Working of Aliens Act. The current list of restricted occupations is unchanged since the original legislation that introduced work permits and restricted occupations in the 70s. Thousands of foreign lawyers, engineers, architects and accountants work in Thailand illegally anyway by pretending to be consultants or trainers. The only difference is that they can't sign any plans or plead in court which most would rather not do anyway. So it would be mainly a case of legislation catching up with the reality and the needs of the economy. Sorry I can't disclose the source of the information on tariffs. Maybe some companies have just been unlucky or used the wrong clearing agents.

I agree that it would be nice if they rethought the whole set of regulations for foreigners working in Thailand. However, due to the AEC and the opening to ASEAN member foreigners, they will have even less time to rethink the non-ASEAN foreigners' situation. In fact, due to the added workload, it would make sense to keep citizens of non-member countries even more at bay for the moment.

Does the 2008 Act say anything abut the time frame? I now that the Foreign Chambers are lobbying to open up List 3, and I believe there has been some success. I would have to check with some people, but this discussion would be stuff for another thread.

As for the import duty rate, those companies that have been "unlucky" should bring it up to higher people. The current Thai government is very strict on having their negotiating efforts with other countries been implemented and will indeed punish any low-level customs officer who thinks he can play a power card. Those times are over.

[Arkady]

I agree that it would be nice if they rethought the whole set of regulations for foreigners working in Thailand. However, due to the AEC and the opening to ASEAN member foreigners, they will have even less time to rethink the non-ASEAN foreigners' situation. In fact, due to the added workload, it would make sense to keep citizens of non-member countries even more at bay for the moment.

Does the 2008 Act say anything abut the time frame? I now that the Foreign Chambers are lobbying to open up List 3, and I believe there has been some success. I would have to check with some people, but this discussion would be stuff for another thread.

As for the import duty rate, those companies that have been "unlucky" should bring it up to higher people. The current Thai government is very strict on having their negotiating efforts with other countries been implemented and will indeed punish any low-level customs officer who thinks he can play a power card. Those times are over.

I am not sure if they will even get around to officially allowing in the ASEAN professionals but lower cost English speaking Filipino accountants would probably be in greater demand, as they are in countries like Vietnam. The 2008 Working of Aliens Act specifies in Section 57 that a revised list of restricted occupations will be published via a Royal Decree within two years of promulgation of the Act. Meanwhile, the old list under the Royal Decree of 1979 pursuant to the 1978 Act remains in force. As an side, it is interesting to note that lists of restricted occupations pre-date the work permit laws. The first lists date back to the 30s when Thai labourers faced difficulties finding work during the Great Depression due to the massive influx of Chinese immigrants who were cheaper and were considered more hard working and reliable by Thai and foreign employers.

Annex 3 refers to the 1999 Foreign Business Act and specifies the service sectors that foreign business entities may not operate in without an alien business licence, rather than the occupations that foreign individuals may not practice under the Working of Aliens Act. Thus, if Annex 3 were amended to delete accounting services, foreign firms would be allowed in the accounting sector but would still not be able to legally hire foreign accountants without an amendment to the list of restricted occupations. The Democrats simply pledged not meddle with the FBA during the course of the current government, following the hoohaa caused by the Sarayudh government's ill advised failed attempt to tighten it up. However, they are making noises about deleting Annex 3 entirely, if able to form the next government. This would be a big step forward for Thailand's competitiveness and can be achieved via a Royal Decree without going through parliament, unlike the more strategic sectors in Annex 1 and Annex 2 Chapter 1 which require an Act of Parliament to be amended.

I agree that tariffs are probably the subject for another thread but rights of foreigners to live and work in Thailand are more relevant to the current topic.

[tombkk]

I am not sure if they will even get around to officially allowing in the ASEAN professionals

They will, rest assured.

but lower cost English speaking Filipino accountants would probably be in greater demand, as they are in countries like Vietnam. The 2008 Working of Aliens Act specifies in Section 57 that a revised list of restricted occupations will be published via a Royal Decree within two years of promulgation of the Act. Meanwhile, the old list under the Royal Decree of 1979 pursuant to the 1978 Act remains in force. As an side, it is interesting to note that lists of restricted occupations pre-date the work permit laws. The first lists date back to the 30s when Thai labourers faced difficulties finding work during the Great Depression due to the massive influx of Chinese immigrants who were cheaper and were considered more hard working and reliable by Thai and foreign employers.

The Great Depression is over. What I can imagine is that the make a seperate law for ASEAN nationals and at the same time state that the Foreign Business Act does not apply to them any more. That would be the easiest to both comply with ASEAN agreements and not touch the existing regulations for non-ASEAN nationals.

I understand that Thai passport holders won't need a visa for Cambodia any more starting 25 December. This is due to ASEAN - I believe (but am not sure) that Cambodia has abolished visa requirements for all ASEAN nationals. That has nothing to do with non-ASEAN nationals, and I am bringing this only up as an example.

I agree that tariffs are probably the subject for another thread but rights of foreigners to live and work in Thailand are more relevant to the current topic.

[Arkady]

What I can imagine is that the make a seperate law for ASEAN nationals and at the same time state that the Foreign Business Act does not apply to them any more. That would be the easiest to both comply with ASEAN agreements and not touch the existing regulations for non-ASEAN nationals.

I think international treaties take precedence in this area of the FBA. The US-Thai Treaty of Amity and Economic Relations allows exemption from much of the FBA for American owned businesses, even though it is not mentioned in the FBA or ministerial regulations. The Australian-Thai FTA also allows Australians some very limited exemptions to Annex 3 of the FBA. In this day and age, there might be problems coming up with an acceptable definition of what is an ASEAN business. If most of the large listed Singapore companies didn't qualify because of non-ASEAN shareholders, the Singaporeans would not be happy, given that they allow anyone to own a business in their country. It would be much better to delete nearly everything from Annex 3. That would make Thailand the last ASEAN country, apart from Burma, to free up the services sector and is something that should have been done by 2006 under the GATS treaty anyway.

If the FBA issues are settled vis a vis AEC, Thailand will still need to exempt ASEAN nationals from the list of restricted occupations listed in the 1979 Royal Decree pursuant to the Working of Aliens Act which could be done in the new Royal Decree that is 10 months overdue already. That was my original point.