Monk(S) In The Business Class

[elliss]

had a first class sleeper on the overnight train

from bangkok to nong kai , shared with a monk .

some kind of religion , not travelling with the poor . :jap:

[astral]

No necessity to travel with the poor as long as someone else paid his fare.

The same on business class in planes

upgraded or not, it all gains merit for the donor.

[eefoo]

Frankly I am surprised that so many people still use Thai Air. They have old aircraft, the worst staff I have ever encountered *ever* and their safety record is nothing to write home about. They are not even good value for money!

Not on topic in this thread - but would you care to elaborate on that claim?

Worst staff and VFM could also do with being qualified.

[zerod1]

had a first class sleeper on the overnight train

from bangkok to nong kai , shared with a monk .

some kind of religion , not travelling with the poor . :jap:

That was obviously as a gesture from the train manager. I doubt he even paid his fare, it is normally (not always) waived.

Don't allow Buddhism to be confused with martyrdom, just because they are expected to shun their personal modern trappings whilst pursuing homage, does not mean they have to live like animals and force themselves to suffer, as to gain some sort of absolution.

That is not the intention, the core basis is be nice and accommodating to everyone and everything, all life is sacred and life is god. To fend off an air stewardess's or a train manager's alms so to speak is like denying the merit to the individual offering the gesture. So it is as good to accept the good deed as is it to furnish the good deed in the first place.

It's simple really.

Edited September 9, 2010 by zerod1

[Damacles]

If the monastic authorities were more careful about who they accepted as monks, they would be more worthy of respect. There are many very good/honest monks... but there are also many who are nothing better than parasites.

The first sensible statement on this thread. . Well said Isanbirder!

Nothing new about that - it applies to most organisations and all organised religions. I'm sure the Catholic Church thought it was being careful about who it accepted....

zerod1 nice posting I learnt some things

[Beetlejuice]

God works in mysterious ways.

Have faith and you will receive my son.

[richard_smith237]

My wife and I sat behind a Thai Buddhist Monk in Thai Airways business class a few years ago.

He didn't get treated any differently than any of the other passengers in the same cabin and certainly required less attention (meals and drinks etc).

The only momentary issue my wife had was that while reclined our feet would be pointing at the Monk in front of us. The practicalities of flying cleared that one up rather quickly.

If someone is willing to pay for his ticket then why not? Although, I have to admit I'm not familiar with the specifics and whether or not the Monks are supposed to endure the worst hardship in any given situation to help them on their way to enlightenment.

[zerod1]

If the monastic authorities were more careful about who they accepted as monks, they would be more worthy of respect. There are many very good/honest monks... but there are also many who are nothing better than parasites.

It is not in the nature of the monastic authorities to vet who is and who is not ordained as a monk. All I know is that almost every male in Thailand will at some point become a monk, even if for only a day.

But believe me, they sleep in a small room without air conditioning, and they have no furniture and only a thin rice mat to sleep on with no mosquito net. When you become a monk, you really part with comfort. I can hardly agree that this can be construed as parasitic.

Monks are not expected to deliberately suffer hardships as a means to gaining enlightenment. However, the teachings of Buddha states that to forget your material ways and your wanting of comforts, helps to un-clutter and purify the mind which leads to enlightenment.

Edited September 9, 2010 by zerod1

[maccaroni man]

Did I miss it or is it stated somewhere in this thread that the monk in the OP got a free upgrade to business class?

Who's to say that the person who bought the ticket didn't buy a business class ticket?!?

who's to say the tickets were bought at all. If mother teresa would have shown up at an airport with no money, my bet is she could have flown 1st class. Having said this I have seen some monks behave in ways that blow my mind in thailand but then again this is los

[Heng]

Not all monks are created equal. Not exactly in line with the religion, but if you're a monk that commands a following of 10,000-100,000 folks who regularly show up to hear you chat and donate millions to your 'chain' of temples you've established worldwide, chances are you don't walk your street waiting for people to put food in your baht. Car and driver, biz class or better, no different than a relatively successful CEO or business owner.

[moe666]

Frankly I am surprised that so many people still use Thai Air. They have old aircraft, the worst staff I have ever encountered *ever* and their safety record is nothing to write home about. They are not even good value for money!

Putting monks into business class is frankly ridiculous, and if I was a regular customer I would be furious. They probably don't even pay the full economy fare.

As for the OP making a comment about the sexual nature of tour guides - well, that just about sums up the mentality of this poster.

Good luck to people who still think that Thai is a good airline, why don't you buy some shares - they are on sale 16 - 17 of this month, and will help to alleviate Thai Airs absolutely HUGE debt, from years of gross mismanagement and graft.

And becoming furious gets you what.

[Forethat]

Frankly I am surprised that so many people still use Thai Air. They have old aircraft, the worst staff I have ever encountered *ever* and their safety record is nothing to write home about. They are not even good value for money!

I find this statement interesting. Can you back it up with some factual data or should your post be interpreted as the usual TV-member twaddle speak?

[jackr]

Monks are not expected to deliberately suffer hardships as a means to gaining enlightenment. However, the teachings of Buddha states that to forget your material ways and your wanting of comforts, helps to un-clutter and purify the mind which leads to enlightenment.

Sacrificing all the trappings of life for something that, in all likelihood, is never going to happen is such a shame. That it is a selfless existence could also be construed the opposite, with enlightenment for the self the ultimate goal. Good on the good monks doing good for folks, though.

Can't help thinking Henry VIII had the right idea, but.

[bannork]

Ok.

Your post is actually easy to explain, but difficult for most farangs to understand, so i will try my best.

There are essentially 2 types of monk, there are the lifelong devotee type that basically gives up all their worldly possessions to study the religion and become a fully immersed monk. Then there are the part time (not fake by any standard) monks. The latter is more of a homage to their family.

In Thailand they believe that making merit all through a Thai person's life is essential to bring them good fortune, because they are big believers in a bad turn will result in a bad thing happening and vice versa. The normal way and most common way of making merit is to give alms, usually by giving food to a monk which is traditionally done early in the morning, and i am sure you have all seen it. Or by donating things or money to the temple or charitable organisations.

This is called making merit. For those who don't fully understand how it works here.

One of the things considered to be the ultimate merit making gesture is to become a monk, this returns it is believed, the optimum amount of good merit on not only the individual but also the parents of the individual. It is totally normal for a young man to become a monk at some point in his life when he feels ready.

If a man decides to become a monk for a year, then he does so, and if he is employed, then by law, the employer must allow him to pursue his homage and re-employ him afterwards (within reason i believe). There are also part time monks who take on this identity maybe 2 or 3 days a week.

When a monk is robed up and in the temple, they must shun all material things and concentrate on the religion. But outside the temple, any monk may go into a 7/11 and buy a Pepsi and a sandwich, they can carry their own money as well as a mobile phone even. But what is important, is that Thai people know and appreciate the sacrifices the individual is making and they calculate the merit that he is bestowing on his parents. It is a very proud moment for every Thai parent when their son becomes a monk.

It is little wonder that Thai people in general give considerations back to that individual. Even as far as a free upgrade to business class. These are seen as the least they can do. After all, treating a monk with esteem in itself commands some merit in the eyes of Thai people and their beliefs.

It is also considered a dreadful sin to mock a monk, or pour disdain on anything to do with monks and is a sure fire way to upset Thai people. As a bit of advice to the OP, and anyone else who wants to comment negatively about the situation.

It's certainly not right for monks to be in a 7-11 buying food at night as I have seen.

I have a good friend from Cornwall who's a monk, he started in a temple in Nong Khai province but gave up there as too many of the monks were in his opinion, ex drunkards, social misfits, unable to hold down a job.

So he moved to a prominent temple in Bangkok where he thought the monks would be more sincere about Buddhist practice but he said it was like working in a big company, people jostling for positions, promotions, free trips to India, etc.

Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of decent monks, but as mentioned the entry procedure is so lax a lot of people unworthy to wear the robes slip through.

[DP25]

Frankly I am surprised that so many people still use Thai Air. They have old aircraft, the worst staff I have ever encountered *ever* and their safety record is nothing to write home about. They are not even good value for money!

I find this statement interesting. Can you back it up with some factual data or should your post be interpreted as the usual TV-member twaddle speak?

Thai Air is consistently ranked one of the top ten airlines in the world (he probably thinks it's another Thai conspiracy). I'd say it's the usual bitter twaddle speak.

[simon43]

I think my dry, British sense of humour has gone over the heads of certain posters.

I'm well aware of what constitutes a 'real' monk and what constitutes a period of merit-making. (I've studied Buddhism at post-grad level..)

A real monk would refuse an offer of First Class, and certainly would not be eating in the afternoon/evening. That would be breaching some of the important Precepts of Buddhism.

So we can assume that these 'monks' in First Class were actually novices who were undertaking a period of merit-making, perhaps in honour of their parents.

So my claim that they were fake monks still stands. One cannot wear saffron robes and pick and chose at what time of the day you will adhere to the Precepts, and which of these you will adhere to. That is total hypocracy (spelling?).

If one is undertaking a period of merit-making, and is still required for practical or business reasons to travel in this manner, the robes should be removed, and the person should be treated as any other individual who is not a real monk.

I have very little respect for many who claim to be monks, because it's very clear by their actions that what they claim to be is complete <deleted>, and everyone knows this.

On the other hand, I have total respect for those who do adhere to the Precepts.

As I often say, it's human nature to be bad

Simon

[teatree]

I like the little monk only areas you see at thai airports with big comfortable chairs. Completely against what Buddha taught.

[Thaddeus]

Car and driver, biz class or better, no different than a relatively successful CEO or business owner.

By that token I suppose an excessively large personal bank account is acceptable too.

I too think that good ol' Henry had a point.

[ooovaavu]

No necessity to travel with the poor as long as someone else paid his fare.

The same on business class in planes

upgraded or not, it all gains merit for the donor.

How convenient:whistling:

[ooovaavu]

I like the little monk only areas you see at thai airports with big comfortable chairs. Completely against what Buddha taught.

KInd of makes a mockery of the whole thing really.

[Richb2004v2]

So these men give up all material possessions and live a frugal life of isolation. Remind me again what this achieves and for who, other than seats on trains and planes obviously?

[pitrevie]

Yeah, it's a shock/surprise when you come from a country where there is a greater separation of "church and state." However Thailand is essentially a "Buddhist country," and it comes just about as close as possible to a "state religion" without it technically being so. As a result you see all the trappings of a state religion (preferential treatment of religious figures, intermixing of religious/political resources in the community, etc.)

Believe it or not, 100 years ago and longer, Christian ministers also received this same type of preferential treatment in western countries (the USA, where Protestant Christianity was the de facto state religion, where the local minister was usually also the school teacher), and the U.K. which has an actual state religion.

Nothing really new. Just new to you.

I see that several Christian ministers in the USA have their own private jets after being told by god they should go out and buy one especially the ones with all the luxury extras.

[ooovaavu]

Yeah, it's a shock/surprise when you come from a country where there is a greater separation of "church and state." However Thailand is essentially a "Buddhist country," and it comes just about as close as possible to a "state religion" without it technically being so. As a result you see all the trappings of a state religion (preferential treatment of religious figures, intermixing of religious/political resources in the community, etc.)

Believe it or not, 100 years ago and longer, Christian ministers also received this same type of preferential treatment in western countries (the USA, where Protestant Christianity was the de facto state religion, where the local minister was usually also the school teacher), and the U.K. which has an actual state religion.

Nothing really new. Just new to you.

I see that several Christian ministers in the USA have their own private jets after being told by god they should go out and buy one especially the ones with all the luxury extras.

I rest my case M'lud, sadly these folk have huge leverage in the U.S as do most religions in the world. I'll sticj with Dawkins "chocolate teapot theory" may as well its no dafter than any others out there.

[camerata]

Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of decent monks, but as mentioned the entry procedure is so lax a lot of people unworthy to wear the robes slip through.

The Buddha kind of set the tone when he accepted the serial killer, Angulimala, into the monastic order. Although there are some basic restrictions for ordination set down in the Monastic Code, the idea is that everyone has the potential for enlightenment and should be given a chance. Perhaps it would work better if the abbots were stricter about the 227 precepts, so that layabouts didn't find the monkhood an appealing way of life.

My take on the OP is this: Under the Monastic Code, monks are not allowed to have contact with females, which makes it very difficult for them to move around or do anything in a crowded plane. Most likely the stewardesses would move them to business class out of consideration and to make it easier for everyone (i.e. both the monks and the women on the plane). I believe there is also a precept that monks cannot eat at the same table as laity. I don't know how this would work in a plane, but clearly it would be better for a monk to have a row of seats to himself, if possible.

As others have mentioned, serving a monk in any way brings merit. There is no reason for a monk to decline a kindness unless it will result in him breaking a precept.

[midas]

Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of decent monks, but as mentioned the entry procedure is so lax a lot of people unworthy to wear the robes slip through.

The Buddha kind of set the tone when he accepted the serial killer, Angulimala, into the monastic order. Although there are some basic restrictions for ordination set down in the Monastic Code, the idea is that everyone has the potential for enlightenment and should be given a chance. Perhaps it would work better if the abbots were stricter about the 227 precepts, so that layabouts didn't find the monkhood an appealing way of life.

My take on the OP is this: Under the Monastic Code, monks are not allowed to have contact with females, which makes it very difficult for them to move around or do anything in a crowded plane. Most likely the stewardesses would move them to business class out of consideration and to make it easier for everyone (i.e. both the monks and the women on the plane). I believe there is also a precept that monks cannot eat at the same table as laity. I don't know how this would work in a plane, but clearly it would be better for a monk to have a row of seats to himself, if possible.

As others have mentioned, serving a monk in any way brings merit. There is no reason for a monk to decline a kindness unless it will result in him breaking a precept.

I agree with your response totally.

When Thai's stop reacting this way to Monks - that will be the day

I leave Thailand.

[harrry]

Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of decent monks, but as mentioned the entry procedure is so lax a lot of people unworthy to wear the robes slip through.

The Buddha kind of set the tone when he accepted the serial killer, Angulimala, into the monastic order. Although there are some basic restrictions for ordination set down in the Monastic Code, the idea is that everyone has the potential for enlightenment and should be given a chance. Perhaps it would work better if the abbots were stricter about the 227 precepts, so that layabouts didn't find the monkhood an appealing way of life.

My take on the OP is this: Under the Monastic Code, monks are not allowed to have contact with females, which makes it very difficult for them to move around or do anything in a crowded plane. Most likely the stewardesses would move them to business class out of consideration and to make it easier for everyone (i.e. both the monks and the women on the plane). I believe there is also a precept that monks cannot eat at the same table as laity. I don't know how this would work in a plane, but clearly it would be better for a monk to have a row of seats to himself, if possible.

As others have mentioned, serving a monk in any way brings merit. There is no reason for a monk to decline a kindness unless it will result in him breaking a precept.

So serial killers are OK but amputees not.

[Lammbock]

My take on the OP is this: Under the Monastic Code, monks are not allowed to have contact with females, which makes it very difficult for them to move around or do anything in a crowded plane. Most likely the stewardesses would move them to business class out of consideration and to make it easier for everyone (i.e. both the monks and the women on the plane). I believe there is also a precept that monks cannot eat at the same table as laity. I don't know how this would work in a plane, but clearly it would be better for a monk to have a row of seats to himself, if possible.

Thanks for that. It exactly makes really sense if you see it from this point.

BUT!

Than on the other hand if the plane isn't really full so why she (the Stewardess) didn't gave him an economy seat free of women??? As mentioned before: "Monks shouldn't have a comfortable life."

For my self the whole think does not makes sense.

Cause...on the one site Monks "can't do this" and "don't do that" but than you see them flying BC and eating food in the evening???

Just a tought:

It is illegal to say i am a Monk and dress like one so next time i board a Thai Air plane i will dress in a "gay-way" and will tell the air waitress "I am not allowed to seat near a women" and might get a BC upgrade!

Muhahahahaha....

Best Regards, :jap:

Lammbock

[sbk]

Seems a personal choice on the part of the flight attendant, it would seem to me. Ask her.

[zerod1]

A monk in our village regularly pulls up in a new black pick-up in front of the village shop.

Last Thursday I was in a 7-11 at 8.00 pm and a monk bought 2 chicken pies, 3 sandwiches, a loaf of bread and a bottle of coke.

The Thais say nothing though, so I resist sticking my oar in.

Did he proceed to exit the shop and start munching on his feast? Was he maybe not buying this for someone who wondered into the local temple, homeless and half starving to death? Maybe a wayward westerner, reduced to the status of a bum. (to quote Withnail & I).

Without the whole story, we can only make assumptions that the Monk was obviously doing a very bad thing. Because that is what the majority of people on here seem to prefer.

Do not judge, lest thee be judged thyself. (I think).

[nocturn]

It was the 6pm flight from HK to Bkk.

Ah OK, so they were fake monks then.

I actually see a huge number of fake monks in Thailand. They may wear saffron robes and purport to be 'real' monks, but their actions demonstrate very clearly that they are fakes.

The color of your clothes that you wear does not change what you really are inside

Simon

(waiting for the flames...)

i remember a trip to the top of the erawan falls, coming around the corner and walking straight into a group of young monks with women, whiskey and smokes.

while i did not find that particularly offensive the amount of trash they left behind was truly shocking.