We Are All To Blame For The Political Rift In Thailand

[asiawatcher]

Correction - we are NOT all to blame. The problems started in 1932. Until then the (don't slap me around admin) the 'family' controlled a great deal through the current generations and then the bleak period where the 'Government' at the time started confiscating property belonging to 'third' parties (and the family) thus began the open slather of corruption which carries through to present day. When the 'family' resettled late 40's and began good governance Thailand started on a path it had every chance to become the jewel of Asia.

But politics in Thailand and lawlessness was backed thru the last six decades of politicians and down through all ranks associated with them and those families who propagated the corruption, now run the country. So when one neighbour has gazillions and the other nothing - how are "we all to blame" when it is mostly through ill gotten gains?

When the Reds decided to ask for Jury - Justice, I agree - 100%. French Romanesque 'all powerful judges' does not work and is open to corruption.

When they asked for transparency etc - of course we all agree - but - having said that, when will the politicians, police and Laws of this country be made to be upheld and who will enforce them? Politicians won't, Police won't, armed forces - maybe!

Justice does not really exist - it is a fable told time and time again that it exists. Aesop would have been proud of Thai history. Some justice is metered out in cut and dried cases but when it involves people with 'connections' justice is never served. Thaksin? Thaksin's choice of Interior Minister for one, the son of the politician who got 'angry' and mowed down alighting passengers from the bus he had 'issues' with?

Here it is all too easy to shave your head and take robes and claim impunity. That is why there needs to be a jury - let the justice be served by judgement by the people.

So don't make stupid statements "we are all to blame". I am a Farang and here because I want to be. I cannot own land, I am required by law to report to the 'authorities' (what a joke) every 360 days, I pay taxes and employ Thai's and I am ripped off at every opportunity in business that Thai business can muster, but I still win and choose to be here.

So point the finger at someone else, point it where it belongs. Dissolution of parliament will not solve anything and right now the man in the chair is the best you have had since 1932 and all Thai's should respect him, help him and support him. If the idiots rallying for peace whilst bombing, shooting and maiming, the fools in parliament who are scamming others and Government contracts are not held to book, then what hope does Thailand have? Nothing short of rewriting the constitution, endorsement by the Grande Patriarch and collaboration by armed forces and Police will get your system clean but if you continue to ignore and let things stay as they are - nothing will ever change.

It matters not to me. I survive and always will but Thailand and Thai's at large need to rethink their current position and its not just Thaksin - he was caught with his hand in the cookie jar - albeit a huge jar!

Now this should get the keyboards hot.

Edited September 21, 2010 by asiawatcher

[rubl]

.. begin removed ..

When the Reds decided to ask for Jury - Justice, I agree - 100%. French Romanesque 'all powerful judges' does not work and is open to corruption.

.. end removed ..

Typing slowly as not to get my keyboard on fire I wonder about the 'jury' part. Lots of countries do without and function as a democracy.

'All powerful judges' in Thailand are subject to political pressure indeed, but why do you think a jury would not ? With Thailand's history a jury is probably cheaper to influence than a few judges.

The 8 - 7 judgment of K. Thaksin's case in 2001 (aka honest-mistake case) had some judges say later they found it difficult to vote against as K. Thaksin had just won the election with a majority and the country needed peace.

Make the judicial system really independent, transparant and add a few laws against influencing them.

(edit: lost line of thought, found again I think?)

Edited September 21, 2010 by rubl

[MAJIC]

How to rewrite Thai History in 3 easy steps.

1.So, nobody accepts any blame?

2.Then,allocate blame to everybody.

3.Say goodbye to the problem,

Simple Thai Logic.

Edited September 21, 2010 by MAJIC

[phetaroi]

I think that what many of you are missing here is that there are two levels of blame to be assessed.

One level of blame is for the immediate and gross actions of various people and groups during the period that led up to and the culminating events of May 19. Someone is to blame, for example, for setting Central World on fire, and it is fairly likely that there is the arsonist himself, as well as some other individual or circle of leaders who gave the approval for the action.

But there is a wider circle of responsibility that falls on the entire nation. As just one related example, what percentage of Thais have at any point in their life accepted or given bribes at any level? What percentage of Thais acknowledge that politics and government in Thailand (both nationally and locally) are corrupt, but raise not a single finger or voice not a single complaint?

Of course, this doesn't exist just in Thailand. TO take another gross example, but in the U.S., I won't go back to slavery, but I will point out the example of Blacks being second class citizens until the Civil Rights Act of the mid-1960s. Separate "colored" water fountains, waiting rooms at train stations; the inability to stay at "white" hotels and motels or eat at "white" restaurants; job discrimination simply based on skin color, separate schools and churches, etc. Some were actively discriminatory, while others simply turned and pretended not to see or just accepted that "that's the way it is". And where did the change come from? Down from the top (government)...not really. Protesters, both black and white...individual citizens...started the ball of change rolling.

In Thailand today, the politicians -- both those in power and those out of power -- are mouthing all the right words, but in the end, they're looking out for their power. I don't see many Thai citizens actively promoting change in a legal and democratic manner. That's why they are also to blame.

[chantorn]

How to rewrite Thai History in 3 easy steps.

1.So, nobody accepts any blame?

2.Then,allocate blame to everybody.

3.Say goodbye to the problem,

Simple Thai Logic.

This is Thailand.

[wintermute]

In Thailand today, the politicians -- both those in power and those out of power -- are mouthing all the right words, but in the end, they're looking out for their power. I don't see many Thai citizens actively promoting change in a legal and democratic manner. That's why they are also to blame.

There are those that argue for reforms but they don't have the leadership or the clout to make a large grassroots push. Basically real reform only happens when you have strong leaders and a large educated angry group of dedicated people. In Thailand it's easy for the rich and corrupt to push problems aside or silence political dissidents. It's even easier to buy "votes" or create these massive untouchable civic networks where they can play games with the system indefinitely.

This is why the powerful are constantly throwing mud at each other in the media..accusing each other of Lese Majeste and slander etc.. It's just mud slinging 101 because the other option would be to shoot each other and that's a little more difficult if both parties are high profile.

[yellow1red1]

Quite how the ordinary person with no power is as responsible as the power players after having their cake and eating it is as responsible for the mess is open to question.

The players are obviously manouvering around trying to find a large common ground so things can get back to normal with mosty of the old players back in the game. That is what "we are all responsible" means.

I'm totally with you there. I hate these "it's all our fault" opinion pieces that seem to pop up all the time. We all know the blame lies with the power players. Doing nothing ie. staying at home and not protesting is in fact the law. By speaking out people put themselves at risk and ordinary people, everywhere are loath to do that.

2 good Posts with facts; but what is to hate? I luv seeing a Thai talk like the OP; like seeing doors open. if they would ALL gets off their hands and sidelines and demand free speech and the end of corruption, red or yellow, there might, possibly, be a slim chance for a future.

only problem with the OP, besides rambling long, is putting the cause of problems for past few years when it is from past several decades. otherwise it's GOOD to see, even a few Thais, recognising the causes and willing to say. let it Grow!

[Thai at Heart]

Is this piece suggesting that "We" at 'The Nation' are somehow to blame for blatantly taking political sides on issues and refusing to print politically balanced stories.

I mean honestly, a piece like this opined by a newspaper with a circulation of 100k, 50% of which get hung in offices and lobbies of 5 star hotels unopened? This piece can only be written by a Thai trying to give Westerners what they think they want to hear.

The problem is, once you have been here a while, one understands that it is impossible to have "We" or "Rao" (the people) when everyone talks from the perspective of; "I am always right and; They have been told that I am never wrong."

[asiawatcher]

The 8 - 7 judgment of K. Thaksin's case in 2001 (aka honest-mistake case) had some judges say later they found it difficult to vote against as K. Thaksin had just won the election with a majority and the country needed peace.

(edit: lost line of thought, found again I think?)

But isn't that a classic in itself? The judges find it difficult to rule against Thaksin because of 'peace'? What happened to rule of law against conviction of a criminal act? The other issues had nothing whatsoever to do with the point of law so why even make the statement. I know two judges and a chief prosecutor here and they explain it away as sometimes the law needs to be reconsidered. In their eyes it is that simple. And the closeness of the decision came about due to nepotism of Thaksin appointed court members! That is why a jury would work better than judges. But as it was a superior court that ruled - a panel of judges in this instance should have been more decisive but they did what was politically correct and made it a close decision. I wonder what the real vote count was?

Nope - this is Thailand and in this case they deserve what they get and som num na!

[yellow1red1]

We are all to blame but the cause looks Thaksin again, while he is only an effect.

When they write an article and try to explane: we are all to blame, they should try for one time leave the prominent place for Thaksin out of the commentary.

Thaksin only appeared because of "we are all to blame".

Self-criticism starts not the last 10 years or so.

To blame Thaksin is beating a dead horse. Not only in Thailand but just about everywhere the rich are getting very rich and the poor are getting poorer and the middle class is disappearing.

yes and yes; how many Thais know how demented and corrupt Plaek and all the others have been? well they knew, knew it; as part of law, the ways things are supposed to be.

yes, it's strange of 100's, 1000's of corrupt army, police, politicians (the ones with gated mansions, mia nois, new MB and children at school in Europe),

only one gets convicted. TiT

to get rich by work, skill, talent, with ethics is one thing, only Commies can disagree; BUT rich by cheating, gangster, criminal, bribeery, everyone can hate.

Corruption is #1 problem; no freedom of speech is #1 road block

[rubl]

The 8 - 7 judgment of K. Thaksin's case in 2001 (aka honest-mistake case) had some judges say later they found it difficult to vote against as K. Thaksin had just won the election with a majority and the country needed peace.

(edit: lost line of thought, found again I think?)

But isn't that a classic in itself? The judges find it difficult to rule against Thaksin because of 'peace'? What happened to rule of law against conviction of a criminal act? The other issues had nothing whatsoever to do with the point of law so why even make the statement. I know two judges and a chief prosecutor here and they explain it away as sometimes the law needs to be reconsidered. In their eyes it is that simple. And the closeness of the decision came about due to nepotism of Thaksin appointed court members! That is why a jury would work better than judges. But as it was a superior court that ruled - a panel of judges in this instance should have been more decisive but they did what was politically correct and made it a close decision. I wonder what the real vote count was?

Nope - this is Thailand and in this case they deserve what they get and som num na!

I'm afraid you need a somewhat more mature population to make a jury system work. If votes can be bought, why you think a jury would work ?

[geriatrickid]

Is this piece suggesting that "We" at 'The Nation' are somehow to blame for blatantly taking political sides on issues and refusing to print politically balanced stories.

I mean honestly, a piece like this opined by a newspaper with a circulation of 100k, 50% of which get hung in offices and lobbies of 5 star hotels unopened? This piece can only be written by a Thai trying to give Westerners what they think they want to hear.

The problem is, once you have been here a while, one understands that it is impossible to have "We" or "Rao" (the people) when everyone talks from the perspective of; "I am always right and; They have been told that I am never wrong."

You know your stuff. The article is not written for Thais. It is written for farangs.

[Kwasaki]

I do not quite support the view. I think we are not to be blamed. Only Thaksin & the Red-shirt are to to blame. Without them, there will be no bombing & arson attack, and the death of 91 people this year. I am open to different views.

SamritT, I like your post. This is my view.

The statement " We are all to blame " is a strange thing to say.

I lean towards the people saying it was written for the western media to pick up.

I see that two people gave you red marks for your perfectly reasonable personal view, I wonder who.

I do not like to comment on Thai politics seeing as I am not Thai is would appear ridiculas to do so.

The way I saw the coup coming about is powerful people after the election not liking the status quo.

Thai divisions in society to me appears amusing.

When the Yellow shirts went about there business they brought down the government and brought about change.

I must say I am culturally bias to what I see as an excellent person appointed to lead the country until new elections can come about.

When the Red shirts went about there business they really were convinced they would bring down the government just as the Yellow shirts did.

The I must have my way attitude came into play and sadly violents persued.

I see it as in Thailand that " compromise " is a difficult thing for Thai to accept.

Anyway " SamritT " l leave it there and I too are open to being slagged off. :jap:

Edited September 22, 2010 by Kwasaki

[gregb]

Thaksin and the Red Shirts are a symptom of the socio-economic problems of Thailand -- they are not the cause. History did not begin the day that Thaksin entered politics.

Thaksin is a demagogue, much like Hitler. Yes, there must be an underlying social ill for a demagogue to exploit, but it is incorrect to say he is only a symptom. The demagogue is a fundamental and necessary evil for destruction of a developing society and democracy. Social ills are omnipresent everywhere, but you don't see every country in disarray for the simple reason that while the rulers are corrupt, most are not truly evil.

Too many people concentrate on the social ills, without understanding that the proximate cause of the division in society is that Thaksin decided to eviscerate the democratic process and become the dictator, in much the same way his counterpart, Hun Sen, has terrorized Cambodia. The military had no choice but to step in and throw him out, lest the few minor improvements in society that were slowing materializing would be utterly destroyed.

There certainly are injustices across many segments of society. They need to be dealt with, and in particular strengthening of the rule of law and a single system of justice is of paramount importance. But to minimize Thaksin's role in the current disaster is disingenuous. There are many corrupt leaders at every level of Thai society. There always have been. But they are not demagogues. Only Thaksin rises to that level of depravity. The permanent departure of Thaksin from all levels of Thai society is the only thing that will eventually lead to reconciliation.

A Hitler arises very rarely in the course of human history. Luckily, we have truly benevolent people in Thailand who did what was necessary to stop his rise here before it was too late. All the rest of this conflict is unfortunate, but in the end well worth it, as the alternative is honestly too grisly to contemplate.

To ignore this fundamental fact is to ignore reality.

[Joop50]

Thaksin and the Red Shirts are a symptom of the socio-economic problems of Thailand -- they are not the cause. History did not begin the day that Thaksin entered politics.

Thaksin is a demagogue, much like Hitler. Yes, there must be an underlying social ill for a demagogue to exploit, but it is incorrect to say he is only a symptom. The demagogue is a fundamental and necessary evil for destruction of a developing society and democracy. Social ills are omnipresent everywhere, but you don't see every country in disarray for the simple reason that while the rulers are corrupt, most are not truly evil.

Too many people concentrate on the social ills, without understanding that the proximate cause of the division in society is that Thaksin decided to eviscerate the democratic process and become the dictator, in much the same way his counterpart, Hun Sen, has terrorized Cambodia. The military had no choice but to step in and throw him out, lest the few minor improvements in society that were slowing materializing would be utterly destroyed.

There certainly are injustices across many segments of society. They need to be dealt with, and in particular strengthening of the rule of law and a single system of justice is of paramount importance. But to minimize Thaksin's role in the current disaster is disingenuous. There are many corrupt leaders at every level of Thai society. There always have been. But they are not demagogues. Only Thaksin rises to that level of depravity. The permanent departure of Thaksin from all levels of Thai society is the only thing that will eventually lead to reconciliation.

A Hitler arises very rarely in the course of human history. Luckily, we have truly benevolent people in Thailand who did what was necessary to stop his rise here before it was too late. All the rest of this conflict is unfortunate, but in the end well worth it, as the alternative is honestly too grisly to contemplate.

To ignore this fundamental fact is to ignore reality.

It is YOUR reality.

[phetaroi]

How to rewrite Thai History in 3 easy steps.

1.So, nobody accepts any blame?

2.Then,allocate blame to everybody.

3.Say goodbye to the problem,

Simple Thai Logic.

"First they came for the Communists,

and I didn’t speak up,

because I wasn’t a Communist.

Then they came for the Jews,

and I didn’t speak up,

because I wasn’t a Jew.

Then they came for the Catholics,

and I didn’t speak up,

because I was a Protestant.

Then they came for me,

and by that time there was no one

left to speak up for me."

by Rev. Martin Niemoller, 1945