Hoping that politicians will not send them for "stupid" causes is just plain "stupid"

As for my mate, he left the Army 15 years ago.He had a small problem, the yanks withdrew from the ANZUS (Because NZ would not let Nuke powered vessels in to our ports) and he was incharge of overseas excercises...so he had nothing to do.As for the male bonding thing, i'll give you his number so you can ask him.His tel no is 0800 stickybeak.

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Thanks for your friend phone number, I will surely give him a call

as for one joining thinking politicians will not send one for "stupid" causes, one can only hope

Gotta love the "patriotic" and "pro-miltary" speeches from armchair heroes. People who love to comment how "tough" service men need to be while sitting in the confort of a chair in their living room. Dream of heroic battles that "he" will never live because "he "is a coward at heart and will rather lecture others on the benefits of wars rather than fight himself. I applaude such courageous acts from those "heroes". It takes gut to sink that low and stay that low without blinking an eyelash.

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In your little Utopian world full of sarcasm, and innuendo based upon no knowledge whatsoever, is there no place at all for the military?

Are there no forces needed to defend your family from whatever dangers could threaten them (either “of darkness” or as a result of whatever reasoning you my try to produce)?

Did the servicemen of the WWII die in vain?

Was the three years spent in a Japanese prisoner of war camp by my father (and Boon Mee’s, as well) just a selfish waste of time?

Should we just give up whenever threatened by some megalomaniac with military power?

Should we have turned our back on the Falkland Islanders?

Should Saddam Hussein have been allowed to occupy and dominate the Middle East?

How would you have solved the problems behind WWII, the Falklands Crisis, the Invasion of Kuwait, without expending the lives of those willing to sacrifice themselves for honour and patriotism?

Do you spit on the War Memorials when you pass them in the same way you smear you excrement upon the lives of many of Thaivisa’s membership?

They were in the armed forces, their personal beliefs were immaterial. They HAD to go.

They did not sacrifice their lives, that gives the impression that they had a choice. Their lives were brutally taken from them.

US servicemen are not allowed to give interviews to the media without a superior officer present. Why is that? Could it be that disillusionment is setting in with the troops on the ground?

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It's amazing that this is still a big mystery to so many people.

GI=government issue=government property

People that join the US military are owned by the US military. In the grand scheme of things (planning, strategy, etc.) they are not that different from jeeps, tanks and ammo.

(Yes of course these young men and women are human beings and are to be treated as such. But military planners put these feelings aside when planning a campaign.)

The US military (or any military for that matter) is not a democracy. It is the strictest form of dictatorship. A paradox perhaps, where a dictatorship serves a democracy, but that is the essential nature of the beast.

When people enlist in the military, they sign a contract. It is no different than any other contract. You better know what you are signing before you sign it.

The simple fact is that the Army exist to fight. There is a reason they are called "ground pounders." Anyone who joins the Army (or Marines) without this full realization is a fool.

However, when all is said and done, what these men and women do most of all is serve the people of the US. For that service to my country, sometimes under the most difficult of circumstances, they deserve all the best praise, special treatment, medical care, etc., that can be provided or given.

As for when and why they are in Iraq, and when they should be coming home, that is subject to debate. It's a tough subject. I have friends who are there on first and second tours. A co-worker lost a son in Fallujah during recon, after making through and winning the main heavy battle.

Do you spit on the War Memorials when you pass them in the same way you smear you excrement upon the lives of many of Thaivisa’s membership?

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I think Butterfly would rather be time-warped back to live in the communist hey-days of the last century. Butterfly hasn't accepted the fact that "communist" and "utopia" will never meet in this or any other universe.

Do you spit on the War Memorials when you pass them in the same way you smear you excrement upon the lives of many of Thaivisa’s membership?

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I think Butterfly would rather be time-warped back to live in the communist hey-days of the last century. Butterfly hasn't accepted the fact that "communist" and "utopia" will never meet in this or any other universe.

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Do you think he is a communist?

I doubt it. He may like to think of himself as one, but communism demands logic and a discipline of which he is incapable.

He is more an amoral anarchist who is too short-sighted to see that the natural consequences of his way of describing the world would be a tyranny far greater than any being fought at the present time.

Do you spit on the War Memorials when you pass them in the same way you smear you excrement upon the lives of many of Thaivisa’s membership?

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I think Butterfly would rather be time-warped back to live in the communist hey-days of the last century. Butterfly hasn't accepted the fact that "communist" and "utopia" will never meet in this or any other universe.

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Do you think he is a communist?

I doubt it. He may like to think of himself as one, but communism demands logic and a discipline of which he is incapable.

He is more an amoral anarchist who is too short-sighted to see that the natural consequences of his way of describing the world would be a tyranny far greater than any being fought at the present time.

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I'm back in the states for a few days and have been listening to local talk radio. There was a news report stating that most branches of the military and reserves have already reached their annual recruiting goals for the year. One would think if it was that bad of a deal, or that there were a lot of concerns, that the citizenry would be completely up in arms and that there would be major shortfalls in recruiting goals. Seems to me like the era of the professional soldier (i.e., no draft) works pretty well.

Gotta love the "patriotic" and "pro-miltary" speeches from armchair heroes. People who love to comment how "tough" service men need to be while sitting in the confort of a chair in their living room. Dream of heroic battles that "he" will never leave because "he "is a coward at heart and will rather lecture others on the benefits of wars rather than fight himself. I applaude such courageous acts from those people. It takes gut to sink that low and stay that low.

I never said anything pro or patriotic...just what a mate told me.He also went on to add that anybody that joined the armed forces and was hurt and/or wounded in combat had NO reason to complain....'cause that's what they joined for.

I find this hard to believe, above all in the US (different story in Europe)

Many in the US enlist because they have no other choice, too poor, only opportunity to get to college. Then you find yourself in a difficult position to go fight a war you oppose.

There always been the "light headed" Terminator. That's OK. They are needed. But this is not true for the majority.

That's a mighty fine explanation you have given about my mate who was in the NZ Army.

If you are poor or not, you MUST realise that one day you could be called on to fight if you join the armed forces.If you don't then you shouldn't be fit to join in the first place.It's not exactly rocket science. ...Join Army, learn how to use weapons...kill people.

Hey maybe your mate is there for the male bonding thing

Butterfly is heavy into the male-bonding thing!

Yep...the democratization of Iraq and Afghanistan, Syria's pullout from Lebanon, Israel's pullout from Gaza and the northern West Bank, the democratic reforms that are beginning to be made in Egypt, the sweeping drive towards democracy (funny how the media manages to gloss over this one) that is currently happening in Bahrain, the fact that the Kuwaiti National Assembly has given suffrage to women, Libya's admission it had a secret WMD program (the UN is now working with the Libyan government to dismantle it) and the previously unprecedented world attention that is now being paid to Iran's nuclear aspirations are all clear signs of the further radicalization of the Middle East.

If only we could return to that wonderful paradise of stability that was the Middle East pre-9/11!

Do you spit on the War Memorials when you pass them in the same way you smear you excrement upon the lives of many of Thaivisa’s membership?

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I think Butterfly would rather be time-warped back to live in the communist hey-days of the last century. Butterfly hasn't accepted the fact that "communist" and "utopia" will never meet in this or any other universe.

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Do you think he is a communist?

I doubt it. He may like to think of himself as one, but communism demands logic and a discipline of which he is incapable.

He is more an amoral anarchist who is too short-sighted to see that the natural consequences of his way of describing the world would be a tyranny far greater than any being fought at the present time.

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Well, at least I am not a "pseudo" whatever you want to name it

Do you spit on the War Memorials when you pass them in the same way you smear you excrement upon the lives of many of Thaivisa’s membership?

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I think Butterfly would rather be time-warped back to live in the communist hey-days of the last century. Butterfly hasn't accepted the fact that "communist" and "utopia" will never meet in this or any other universe.

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And what's wrong with "communism" ? it was a noble cause to start with ? do you hate "communism" ? do you have "freedom" ? why do you hate "America" ?

In your little Utopian world full of sarcasm, and innuendo based upon no knowledge whatsoever, is there no place at all for the military?

Are there no forces needed to defend your family from whatever dangers could threaten them (either “of darkness” or as a result of whatever reasoning you my try to produce)?

Did the servicemen of the WWII die in vain?

Was the three years spent in a Japanese prisoner of war camp by my father (and Boon Mee’s, as well) just a selfish waste of time?

Should we just give up whenever threatened by some megalomaniac with military power?

Should we have turned our back on the Falkland Islanders?

Should Saddam Hussein have been allowed to occupy and dominate the Middle East?

How would you have solved the problems behind WWII, the Falklands Crisis, the Invasion of Kuwait, without expending the lives of those willing to sacrifice themselves for honour and patriotism?

Do you spit on the War Memorials when you pass them in the same way you smear you excrement upon the lives of many of Thaivisa’s membership?

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Once more (or should I say as usual) you missed the "substance" of my argument. Hint: key word was "armchair heroes"

You are failing to see the "nuances" between those different conflicts in the past and the ones we are facing today.

Once again, just in case you missed it, Saddam was not a threat and he was no Hitler either.

Thanks for playing

Butterfly is heavy into the male-bonding thing!

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Male bonding is a wonderful thing Boon Me, don't you think ? I mean you and Porkie are 2 love birds who would never seperate under any circumstances. You two would flee and hide as soon as the draft is called and would stay together, hidding, until death do you apart

I'm back in the states for a few days and have been listening to local talk radio. There was a news report stating that most branches of the military and reserves have already reached their annual recruiting goals for the year. One would think if it was that bad of a deal, or that there were a lot of concerns, that the citizenry would be completely up in arms and that there would be major shortfalls in recruiting goals. Seems to me like the era of the professional soldier (i.e., no draft) works pretty well.

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but who knows. Bush the flip flop has been caught lying in the past. Why would this be different ? unless they plan to withdraw next year (per British memo leak), they will have to call for a draft. Of course, we expect all "partriots" to be first in line

My point was originally that the brave servicemen & women that have sacrificed their lives in Iraq and Afganistan did so of their own free will.  They went over there on a mission they believed in.  It might sound trite etc. but to them the promotion of Democracy and the reduction of Terror was a Noble Cause in which they believed.

They were in the armed forces, their personal beliefs were immaterial. They HAD to go.

They did not sacrifice their lives, that gives the impression that they had a choice. Their lives were brutally taken from them.

US servicemen are not allowed to give interviews to the media without a superior officer present. Why is that? Could it be that disillusionment is setting in with the troops on the ground?

One wonders how past wars could have been fought if news reporting had consisted almost entirely of a recitation of casualties. The D-Day invasion was one of the greatest organizational feats ever achieved by human beings, and one of the most successful. But what if the only news folks had gotten about the invasion was that 2,500 allied soldiers died that day, with no discussion of whether the invasion was a success or a failure, and no acknowledgement of the huge strategic stakes that were involved? Or what if such news coverage had continued, day by day, through the entire Battle of Normandy, with Americans having no idea whether the battle was being won or lost, but knowing only that 54,000 Allied troops had been killed by the Germans?

Even in peacetime. The media's breathless tabulation of casualties in Iraq--now, over 1,800 deaths--is generally devoid of context. Here's some context: between 1983 and 1996, 18,006 American military personnel died accidentally in the service of their country. That death rate of 1,286 per year exceeds the rate of combat deaths in Iraq by a ratio of nearly two to one.

Why is that the continual rebuttal by all of you bleeding heart libs is to attempt to draw a parallel between Iraq and Vietnam.

Because the American public will not tolerate mounting casualties if the reason for the war is not unequivocally just, morally correct and clear cut.

The Iraq and Vietnam war(s) does/did not fullfill this criteria.

Ralph Peters has a nominee for August's most important unreported story: while the media were in a frenzy over Cindy Sheehan, the armed forces have quietly exceeded their recruitment goals for FY 2005:

"Every one of the Army's 10 divisions — its key combat organizations — has exceeded its re-enlistment goal for the year to date. Those with the most intense experience in Iraq have the best rates. The 1st Cavalry Division is at 136 percent of its target, the 3rd Infantry Division at 117 percent.

What about first-time enlistment rates, since that was the issue last spring? The Army is running at 108 percent of its needs. Guess not every young American despises his or her country and our president.

The Army Reserve is a tougher sell, given that it takes men and women away from their families and careers on short notice. Well, Reserve recruitment stands at 102 percent of requirements.

And then there's the Army National Guard. We've been told for two years that the Guard was in free-fall. Really? Guard recruitment and retention comes out to 106 percent of its requirements as of June 30."

As Peters says, patriotism is alive and well. But what do the young men and women who enlist and reenlist see when they open a newspaper?

The Cindy Sheehan Extravaganza. Predictions of disaster. The depiction of Michael Moore as a hero and our soldiers as dupes. And a ceaseless attempt to convince the American people that there's no hope in Iraq.

The ugly truth is that much of the media only cares about our soldiers when they're dead or crippled. That's a story.

You don't seriously think there has been only 1800 dead US soldiers so far

Are you familiar with the Washington files of the early 70s ?

You don't seriously think there has been only 1800 dead US soldiers so far 

Are you familiar with the Washington files of the early 70s ? 

Too many checks/balances and transparency these days not to believe that figure of Combat deaths...

Don't recall right-off the 'Washington' files.

You don't seriously think there has been only 1800 dead US soldiers so far 

Are you familiar with the Washington files of the early 70s ? 

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Too many checks/balances and transparency these days not to believe that figure of Combat deaths...

Don't recall right-off the 'Washington' files.

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You mean transparancy like forbidding journalists to take too many pictures of dead soldeirs being flawn home or transparancy as hidding the true pain of relatives when they return the bodies ?

You don't seriously think there has been only 1800 dead US soldiers so far 

Are you familiar with the Washington files of the early 70s ? 

Too many checks/balances and transparency these days not to believe that figure of Combat deaths...

Don't recall right-off the 'Washington' files.

You mean transparancy like forbidding journalists to take too many pictures of dead soldeirs being flawn home or transparancy as hidding the true pain of relatives when they return the bodies ?

"One wonders how past wars could have been fought if news reporting had consisted almost entirely of a recitation of casualties..."

"One wonders how past wars could have been fought if news reporting had consisted almost entirely of a recitation of casualties..."

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Straw man arguments. Previous wars weren't being "advertised" on TV like they were some kind of video game hits.

Hint: Faux News

Once more (or should I say as usual) you missed the "substance" of my argument. Hint: key word was "armchair heroes"

I was not aware, as you modestly call it, of any "substance" in your argument, only some ignorant flaming?

Do you really believe the majority of Thaivisa's members, especially those who don't hold your views, are 18-25 year old, never-has-beens such as yourself? Check out the statistics elsewhere on the forum.

And if you really want to check me out. You've got my photo (in my avatar, profile and with my family on other places in this forum). I'm not hiding cowardly behind a coloured symbol.

You are failing to see the "nuances" between those different conflicts in the past and the ones we are facing today.

I see all the "nuances" allright. Also the ones you subscribe to.

But I choose not to go the ways of the appeasers and their road to moral redundancy.

Once again, just in case you missed it, Saddam was not a threat and he was no Hitler either.

In 1973, at the end of the Yom Kippur War (were you born then?), I visited a bunker containing the bodies of 20 Israeli soldiers captured by the Iraqi forces. All of the POWs had had their hands and feet cut off.

Later, I worked with the POWs who eventually got released after Kissinger's shuffle diplomacy. There are many more stories I could tell if I was allowed.

It is enough for me to know that Saddam and the Iraqi regime was as evil as anything created by Hitler.

If Kuwait was not "lebensraum", what was it?

Thanks for playing 

Oh, it's a game, is it?

"One wonders how past wars could have been fought if news reporting had consisted almost entirely of a recitation of casualties..."

Straw man arguments. Previous wars weren't being "advertised" on TV like they were some kind of video game hits.

Hint: Faux News

Big negitivo there bucko - that's CNN (Commie News Network) you're thinking of there...

Butterfly is heavy into the male-bonding thing!

Male bonding is a wonderful thing Boon Me, don't you think ? I mean you and Porkie are 2 love birds who would never seperate under any circumstances. You two would flee and hide as soon as the draft is called and would stay together, hidding, until death do you apart

Vietnam, Class of 1969...

I was not aware, as you modestly call it, of any "substance" in your argument, only some ignorant flaming?

Do you really believe the majority of Thaivisa's members, especially those who don't hold your views, are 18-25 year old, never-has-beens such as yourself? Check out the statistics elsewhere on the forum.

For you it's more substance that you will ever dream of. You should see the quality of your posting

You are well written though, so at least you got that part right

And if you really want to check me out. You've got my photo (in my avatar, profile and with my family on other places in this forum). I'm not hiding cowardly behind a coloured symbol.

I did. You look like the typical old fart from Pattaya. So what's your point ?

I see all the "nuances" allright. Also the ones you subscribe to.

But I choose not to go the ways of the appeasers and their road to moral redundancy.

I am an appeaser because I want terrorism to end. On the other hand, you are an enabler and wish to see it to continue so you can justify your blatant anti-arab views.

In 1973, at the end of the Yom Kippur War (were you born then?), I visited a bunker containing the bodies of 20 Israeli soldiers captured by the Iraqi forces. All of the POWs had had their hands and feet cut off.

Later, I worked with the POWs who eventually got released after Kissinger's shuffle diplomacy. There are many more stories I could tell if I was allowed.

It is enough for me to know that Saddam and the Iraqi regime was as evil as anything created by Hitler.

So are many dictators in other countries. We can go back to the 1900 if you want to, if you need to justify an act of war in 2005. By your reasoning, it's OK to attack for old pretense now ?

Grow up old man, obviously you have never been exposed to the reality of war and its evil.

"I am an appeaser because I want terrorism to end"

With that statement you have confirmed how totally ignorant you are...

Sorry Lads, I am now closing this thread.

It has degenerated into a mutual slanging/flaming match and this can not be permitted, even in Bedlam.

Posters here are supposed to be sufficiently mature to not get involved in such behavior. If it continues, I can forsee some revocation of privelages being handed out.

Thread closed.

Sorry Lads, I am now closing this thread.

It has degenerated into a mutual slanging/flaming match and this can not be permitted, even in Bedlam.

Posters here are supposed to be sufficiently mature to not get involved in such behavior. If it continues, I can forsee some revocation of privelages being handed out.

Thread closed.

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Holidays are in the offing too.