Losing Respect

[newbie001]

I don't know about others but I am having a hard time respecting many Monks these days. I was out for a walk and saw two senior monks drinking star bucks coffee and smoking. One was talking on a cellphone. At first I thought they might just be temporary monks, but they were not. They had been monks for more than 15 years. Down the road they had a few younger novice monks waiting for them. Each was holding a pile of cash.

I understand the difference between modern world and the ascetic life and the need for some compromise to adjust, but there is something wrong with enjoying all the extravagances of the modern world and still holding such a venerable position.

I just find it quite sad that there are so many that cannot keep the traditions and hold to the precepts.

[Vertigotogo]

I'm with you on this one.

Shame that it is not stopped by those that ought to be able to stop it.

[spip]

I am Thai and I don't respect monk at all. I just follow the teaching the Lord Buddha. Monks are just like any people as you and me, only fool respects them. Sorry!

[taurus88]

Every religion has its bad hats. Catholic has its child molestation and Muslim with its fanatics. Respect the religion and judge their practitioners.

[Somrak]

Every religion has its bad hats. But it looks like that the Thai Buddism has more of them.:jap:

[Capealava]

I am Thai and I don't respect monk at all. I just follow the teaching the Lord Buddha. Monks are just like any people as you and me, only fool respects them. Sorry!

You are quite right. A good monk is one who shows it through their behavior and actions. Just because you are a monk should not bring immediate respect. You have to deserve it. It is hard going to a Wat and watching a monk answer his cell phone during personal interviews or ceremonies.

[WarpSpeed]

Every religion has its bad hats. But it looks like that the Thai Buddism has more of them.:jap:

"Bad habits" is the wrong term, it minimizes these behaviors of people who are revered and trusted by many it matters not what religious beliefs. The proper term is hypocrite and the primary reason I'm not religious..

[sabaijai]

Criticising monks here using specifics is fine, but trashing the entire institution is not. Just as a reminder, here are the posting guidelines for the Buddhism subforum.

Welcome to the Buddhism branch of ThaiVisa.com's Expat Forum. Just because this branch is called 'Buddhism' doesn't mean you have to be a Buddhist to post here. People of all faiths - atheists and agnostics, too - are invited to post provided what you have to say is relevant to Buddhism.

This is a place where those who are involved in Buddhism already can discuss views and ideas; where those new to Buddhism or the merely curious can ask questions about Buddhism and get answers from other members; and where we can all share information about Buddhism in Thailand in particular. While views on Buddhism as practiced in other schools of Buddhism and in other countries are welcome, the primary focus is the Thai brand of Theravada Buddhism (since this is ThaiVisa.com after all)

Do keep in mind that Buddhism, along with the Thai monarchy, is one of the most respected social institutions in Thailand. Posts whose primary purpose is to slag off Buddhism in general or Thai Buddhism in particular are not welcome. Such posts will be edited or deleted immediately, and the member will be warned and/or suspended. Proselytising is likewise unwelcome. This includes repeatedly posting dogma about any subject matter, including vegetarianism, celibacy and so on.

Posts about other religions, eg, Christianity, Islam, etc, or about the existence of God, intelligent design, creation, etc are allowable only when expressly discussed in the context of Buddhism. Any new topic where Buddhism is not thematically involved will be immediately deleted.

[rockyysdt]

the primary reason I'm not religious..

Whether Buddhism is thought of as a religion or a philosophy, isn't it mistaken to make a decision about your life or your path based on the behavior of another?

[phetaroi]

the primary reason I'm not religious..

Whether Buddhism is thought of as a religion or a philosophy, isn't it mistaken to make a decision about your life or your path based on the behavior of another?

While I understand what you are saying based on the specific quote by WarpSpeed. I think the real answer to the question you pose is no. After all, to a large extent, Buddhism flourished because of the example Buddha himself set.

[christiaan]

Do keep in mind that Buddhism, along with the Thai monarchy, is one of the most respected social institutions in Thailand.

Posts whose primary purpose is to slag off Buddhism in general or Thai Buddhism in particular are not welcome.

[christiaan]

the primary reason I'm not religious..

Whether Buddhism is thought of as a religion or a philosophy, isn't it mistaken to make a decision about your life or your path based on the behavior of another?

Yes I agree it is a mistake to do so. When you base your choice to another it is possible at some point you will make that other reponsible for that choice.

When you make such a decision based on the behavior of another you are atached to this behavior/person.

Only a decision completely based on your autonomous thinking is your decision and by that your responsibillity.

The fact that other people inspired you in your thinking does not take this autonomous decision and this responsibiity away from you.

[kropotkin]

OK. Let us not talk about monks.

Let us talk about buddhism.

Buddhism is about rejecting material concerns. Right?

Buddhism is about inner peace. Right?

Is there buddhism in thailand ?

If you can point me to it, i will be most gratefull.

I am not sarcastic, i would realy like to know.

[kropotkin]

Do keep in mind that Buddhism, along with the Thai monarchy, is one of the most respected social institutions in Thailand.

Posts whose primary purpose is to slag off Buddhism in general or Thai Buddhism in particular are not welcome.

Buddhism is an institution???????????????

I thought buddhism is a philosophy? A way to live? a path to enlightenment?

Edited October 14, 2010 by camerata
Trollish comment deleted.

[Joop50]

In fact it has to do with expectations. We form an opinion, in this case about monks, and when their behavior differ from that opinion, we judge.

So, it will be very well possible their behavior was not by the precepts But isn't it much more interesting to see what happend in us?

Perhaps we must be gratefull to the monks for this teaching.

Edited October 14, 2010 by Joop50

[phetaroi]

the primary reason I'm not religious..

Whether Buddhism is thought of as a religion or a philosophy, isn't it mistaken to make a decision about your life or your path based on the behavior of another?

Yes I agree it is a mistake to do so. When you base your choice to another it is possible at some point you will make that other reponsible for that choice.

When you make such a decision based on the behavior of another you are atached to this behavior/person.

Only a decision completely based on your autonomous thinking is your decision and by that your responsibillity.

The fact that other people inspired you in your thinking does not take this autonomous decision and this responsibiity away from you.

Except we call it Buddhism...after Buddha.

[phetaroi]

OK. Let us not talk about monks.

Let us talk about buddhism.

Buddhism is about rejecting material concerns. Right?

Buddhism is about inner peace. Right?

Is there buddhism in thailand ?

If you can point me to it, i will be most gratefull.

I am not sarcastic, i would realy like to know.

I think you make fair, albeit shallow points. Perhaps, for example, there's a difference between having material objects (such as a cell phone or a computer), and becoming attached to those objects.

[phetaroi]

Buddhism is an institution???????????????

I thought buddhism is a philosophy? A way to live? a path to enlightenment?

Yes.

[kropotkin]

Buddhism is an institution???????????????

I thought buddhism is a philosophy? A way to live? a path to enlightenment?

Yes.

yes to institution or yes to filosofy etc ?

and please believe me, as much as i hate what i have seen so far, as much i hope to see and understand real buddhism.

that is part of the reason why i came to thailand ////// part of the reason why i think of going back to europe

i live in chanthaburi

[kropotkin]

OK. Let us not talk about monks.

Let us talk about buddhism.

Buddhism is about rejecting material concerns. Right?

Buddhism is about inner peace. Right?

Is there buddhism in thailand ?

If you can point me to it, i will be most gratefull.

I am not sarcastic, i would realy like to know.

I think you make fair, albeit shallow points. Perhaps, for example, there's a difference between having material objects (such as a cell phone or a computer), and becoming attached to those objects.

Please explain.

I had a tv before, became attached to it, no, addicted. So i gave it away.

I never had / wanted a car, so i never became attached or addicted.

And most monks ?

Can monks help me get rid of my other material addictions?

If i posses material things, and do not throw them away, am i attached?

Is that acceptable? To me it seems not acceptable, but on my own i do not have the strength to resist.

But can i hope for help from smoking / foning / ...... monks ? Or are there others ?

[rockyysdt]

Please explain.

I had a tv before, became attached to it, no, addicted. So i gave it away.

I never had / wanted a car, so i never became attached or addicted.

And most monks ?

Can monks help me get rid of my other material addictions?

If i posses material things, and do not throw them away, am i attached?

Is that acceptable? To me it seems not acceptable, but on my own i do not have the strength to resist.

But can i hope for help from smoking / foning / ...... monks ? Or are there others ?

It appears that you're assuming that all Monks are enlightened.

It's important to note that most Monks are just like you or me, the only difference being that they have committed themselves to a full time life in pursuit of the path.

As they are subject to the same attachments as are all conditioned beings many may behave in ways not in keeping with their path.

That is not to say that the path is wrong nor that Monks worthy of being followed do not exist.

You are the only one who can answer your questions.

By practicing what the Buddha taught you have the potential to experience the answers for yourself.

Edited October 14, 2010 by rockyysdt

[ChiangMaiFun]

I, too, have been very disappointed with Buddhism in Thailand - monks too. Thai's don't seem to actually practise Buddhism at all - there are exceptions of course - but most simply do not understand that going to the Wat and burning incense and giving things to the Temple does not 'put right' being a selfish git all week.

[camerata]

To be aware of a single shortcoming

within oneself is more useful than

to be aware of a thousand in somebody else.

Rather than speaking badly about people

and in ways that will produce friction and

unrest in their lives,

we should practise a purer perception of them,

and when we speak of others, speak of their good qualities.

- The Dalai Lama

[fabianfred]

The Buddha said... When talking about others mention only their good points, but when talking about ourselves mention only our bad points.

We are over half way through the 5000 years of life expectancy of this Buddha's teaching, so misunderstanding and corruption of people's understanding of the Dhamma is common in both laypeople and the Sangha, and will get worse.

If we allow this to stop us from making merit we are cutting ourselves off from "an incomparable field of merit for the world..".

We make it difficult for the good monks to survive too, and so help to shorten the life of the Dhamma.

If we see people behaving incorrectly we should have compassion for them in that they are creating karma for themselves which will cause them suffering in the future.

If we allow ourselves to get angry then we are creating karma for ourselves and are no better than them.

[ChiangMaiFun]

<BR>The Buddha said... When talking about others mention only their good points, but when talking about ourselves mention only our bad points.<BR><BR>We are over half way through the 5000 years of life expectancy of this Buddha's teaching, so misunderstanding and corruption of people's understanding of the Dhamma is common in both laypeople and the Sangha, and will get worse.<BR><BR>If we allow this to stop us from making merit we are cutting ourselves off from "an incomparable field of merit for the world..".<BR><BR>We make it difficult for the good monks to survive too, and so help to shorten the life of the Dhamma.<BR><BR>If we see people behaving incorrectly we should have compassion for them in that they are creating karma for themselves which will cause them suffering in the future.<BR><BR>If we allow ourselves to get angry then we are creating karma for ourselves and are no better than them.<BR>

<BR><BR>This is all true.. but it would be nice if the Sangha showed leadership and commented on the sad state of Buddhism here? all this selling of flowers etc. in Wats is pretty depressing <BR>

[phetaroi]

Buddhism is an institution???????????????

I thought buddhism is a philosophy? A way to live? a path to enlightenment?

Yes.

yes to institution or yes to filosofy etc ?

and please believe me, as much as i hate what i have seen so far, as much i hope to see and understand real buddhism.

that is part of the reason why i came to thailand ////// part of the reason why i think of going back to europe

i live in chanthaburi

Buddhism is a religion.

Buddhism is a philosophy.

Buddhism is a way to live.

Buddhism may be a path to enlightenment.

Buddhism is an institution.

For each individual, Buddhism is one or more or all of the above.

[phetaroi]

Please explain.

I own the computer I am working on. I am attached to it. If it is stolen I will be very upset.

I own an electric razor. I use it, but I am not attached to it. If it is stolen, I won't care.

[ChiangMaiFun]

Buddhism is an institution???????????????

I thought buddhism is a philosophy? A way to live? a path to enlightenment?

Yes.

yes to institution or yes to filosofy etc ?

and please believe me, as much as i hate what i have seen so far, as much i hope to see and understand real buddhism.

that is part of the reason why i came to thailand ////// part of the reason why i think of going back to europe

i live in chanthaburi

Buddhism is a religion.

Buddhism is a philosophy.

Buddhism is a way to live.

Buddhism may be a path to enlightenment.

Buddhism is an institution.

For each individual, Buddhism is one or more or all of the above.

Buddhism is NOT a religion as it has no belief in a God

[christiaan]

ChiangMaifun.

I agree with you that Buddhism is not a religion. But to some people it has become a religion. The word religion has different meanings, it can mean the belief to be connected to a God, but it can alo mean different things. It is possible Buddhism is looked upon as being a religion not because it is a connection with a God but with some other higher non- material principle.

I wonder if it is a problem if it is considered to be some kind of a religion. Out of your words I would say it is more a problem it is institutionalised.

This means, in Thailand, it has become an organisation with levels of power and responsibilities.

In western countries it is nowadays almost custom every individual has her or his own religion. The people more and more do not accept institutions and their authorities anymore, they do not accept other people to decide what to think and to do or not to think and not to do.

This is called indvidual freedom.

In a western country respect is given to individuals for their individual qualities whatever they believe in, and there is no law needed to enforce respect for religious institutions because they in fact are becoming irrelevant in those countries.

[ChiangMaiFun]

ChiangMaifun.

I agree with you that Buddhism is not a religion. But to some people it has become a religion. The word religion has different meanings, it can mean the belief to be connected to a God, but it can alo mean different things. It is possible Buddhism is looked upon as being a religion not because it is a connection with a God but with some other higher non- material principle.

I wonder if it is a problem if it is considered to be some kind of a religion. Out of your words I would say it is more a problem it is institutionalised.

This means, in Thailand, it has become an organisation with levels of power and responsibilities.

In western countries it is nowadays almost custom every individual has her or his own religion. The people more and more do not accept institutions and their authorities anymore, they do not accept other people to decide what to think and to do or not to think and not to do.

This is called indvidual freedom.

In a western country respect is given to individuals for their individual qualities whatever they believe in, and there is no law needed to enforce respect for religious institutions because they in fact are becoming irrelevant in those countries.

Well I guess it's not terribly important... the label. You are right in many ways it has become an 'institution' - but that's its 'outer man-made form' and has little to do with the pathway which is an inner experience - I, personally, don't like at all the flower/incense walking round three times thing as it's meaningless (but harmless I guess).