Bangkok To Build Giant Tunnels To Prevent Flood

[hayden5650]

Building giant tunnels is one thing, and will probably look great on the cover of newspapers, but actually getting all the flood waters into those tunnels is quite another matter.

For how long will all the auxiliary infrastructure be maintained?

As while it may be a few yards of water that is what costs lives, it is only a few feet of water that can cause millions of dollars worth of damage.

[Volks]

All the comments raised, make for interesting reading, with some very good pointers. I would like to add that when I've been to Bangkok, I'm always so very shocked and sad to see so much litter and filth in the streets. I would imagine that so much filth and rubbish would help contribute to the drainage problem, and as so many have already commented, Bangkok is lower than sea level. What can you do with such volumes of water, it has to go somewhere?

I've also travelled to many parts of Thailand including numerous rural areas and villages and again I'm sorry to have to say that I can't believe how much litter I've witnessed in the streets as well as, "the jungle". It's a real disgrace and a major problem.

I was always lead to believe that Thailand is the 'LAND OF PARADISE',. Far from it! The Government should re-educate people and make them more aware of the damage they are causing to themselves, humanity the climate and nature.and to provide the facilities for the proper disposal of all waste products. It's not rocket science!

Why not erect signs displaying, 'KEEP THAILAND TIDY' and have waste disposal bins. Impose heavy fins to offenders make people responsible for their actions. After all, this planet is all of humanities home!

.

[hayden5650]

Volks, that was the thing that shocked me when I first came to Thailand, there are no rubbish bins anywhere!

And it really goes against my whole upbringing to just discard rubbish on the side of the street. I always felt quite awkward throwing my empty drink bottle of packet of smokes down on the footpath, it's not something I've ever got used to.

But it seems these people don't mind. It is the 3rd World after all and they don't call it that because it's clean and tidy!

I guess if all the rubbish was contained in rubbish bins like elsewhere in the world, where would all the rats get their food?

And also, there mightn't be jobs for the 8 or 10 Thais who hang of the back of rubbish trucks picking up all the rubbish.

[Thai at Heart]

If the plan is to take more water from above ground and dump it into the river more quickly, what good does it do if the river is full with rain from upstream and tides from down as was the case in the last event?

If they don't increase the available volume of the Chao Praya, won't it simply cause the Chao Praya to burst its banks more quickly?

[xen]

All the comments raised, make for interesting reading, with some very good pointers. I would like to add that when I've been to Bangkok, I'm always so very shocked and sad to see so much litter and filth in the streets. I would imagine that so much filth and rubbish would help contribute to the drainage problem, and as so many have already commented, Bangkok is lower than sea level. What can you do with such volumes of water, it has to go somewhere?

I've also travelled to many parts of Thailand including numerous rural areas and villages and again I'm sorry to have to say that I can't believe how much litter I've witnessed in the streets as well as, "the jungle". It's a real disgrace and a major problem.

I was always lead to believe that Thailand is the 'LAND OF PARADISE',. Far from it! The Government should re-educate people and make them more aware of the damage they are causing to themselves, humanity the climate and nature.and to provide the facilities for the proper disposal of all waste products. It's not rocket science!

Why not erect signs displaying, 'KEEP THAILAND TIDY' and have waste disposal bins. Impose heavy fins to offenders make people responsible for their actions. After all, this planet is all of humanities home!

Thailand was far worse 25 years ago when i first came and environmental awareness was completely non-existent but over the years great progress has been made but nowhere is it still sufficient. His Majesty, the King , has initiated campaigns about cleaning up Thailand from litter and about deforestration and that has resulted in a huge improvement. However, It should be a continuing exercise to reduce run-off, reduce litter , recycling, restrict illegal logging and deforestration etc but it competes with the struggle for the baht unfortunately.

[Samuian]

Drain the water to where ? The Chao Prayah ? I've not noticed any news about this until today, are they going to build it first and do the feasibility study after ? Wouldn't it make more sense to create more reservoirs upstream from bangers ?

thats exactly what I wondered. I hope they are open enough to the input of other countries who have created some great solutions to some of their problems.

Well, guys of course it's NOT about the tunnels, drainage or anything serious, it's about... well, building them and well, there is this figure 11.000 million, someone is licking his fingers...guess who get's the contract?

[junglist]

As Bangkok is located in a bowlshaped area facing the northern runoff of water flowing to the Gulf of Thailand, it is often flooded due to clogged drainage systems.

Maybe they could spend some money on unclogging the existing drainage systems, and teaching people not to sweep their rubbish into them.

Shhhhhh they will hear you. Smart people are not welcome. 555555555 I see this every day.

[whybother]

All the comments raised, make for interesting reading, with some very good pointers. I would like to add that when I've been to Bangkok, I'm always so very shocked and sad to see so much litter and filth in the streets. I would imagine that so much filth and rubbish would help contribute to the drainage problem, and as so many have already commented, Bangkok is lower than sea level. What can you do with such volumes of water, it has to go somewhere?

I've also travelled to many parts of Thailand including numerous rural areas and villages and again I'm sorry to have to say that I can't believe how much litter I've witnessed in the streets as well as, "the jungle". It's a real disgrace and a major problem.

I was always lead to believe that Thailand is the 'LAND OF PARADISE',. Far from it! The Government should re-educate people and make them more aware of the damage they are causing to themselves, humanity the climate and nature.and to provide the facilities for the proper disposal of all waste products. It's not rocket science!

Why not erect signs displaying, 'KEEP THAILAND TIDY' and have waste disposal bins. Impose heavy fins to offenders make people responsible for their actions. After all, this planet is all of humanities home!

Thailand was far worse 25 years ago when i first came and environmental awareness was completely non-existent but over the years great progress has been made but nowhere is it still sufficient. His Majesty, the King , has initiated campaigns about cleaning up Thailand from litter and about deforestration and that has resulted in a huge improvement. However, It should be a continuing exercise to reduce run-off, reduce litter , recycling, restrict illegal logging and deforestration etc but it competes with the struggle for the baht unfortunately.

I went to a special farming area (forget the name of it) north of Chiang Mai which was sponsored by the Queen.

The farming area was kept beautifully. No rubbish anywhere.

But right outside the front gate where there was a small village basically living off the tourists, the place was a mess. Rubbish everywhere.

It highlighted two problems to me. 1) the lack of care of the tourists, who just dump rubbish out of their car as they arrive or leave, and 2) the lack of effort from the village who seemed to make no effort to clean up the area, even though they make all their money from the tourists - not much money, but surely enough to make an effort to keep their village tidy.

[jonclark]

Just a question - did Bangkok ever flood before they filled in most of the klongs to make roads and where did the klongs drain to?

I know some circumstances have changed and influence major flooding is caused by deforestration and major development along with changed weather patterns etc , but did the authorities make things worse by filling the klongs in ?

Xen, Indeed you are spot on with this. The klongs weren't built by man, they were there as a result of natural drainage patterns. Bangkok is basically one huge drainage basin for the foothills of the himlayas which start in Chang Mai. Swampy is called swampy for a reason. So yes, filling in the klongs etc basically means the water has nowhere to go, hence the flooding.

Building the tunnels is just remaking what nature did for free (and we destroyed). Bangkok will flood and continue to flood simple beacuse of its geography,. The reason flooding is worse now than in the past is that bangkok is larger than in the past.

Basically we live with the flooding or move to somewhere that don't flood.

[whybother]

Just a question - did Bangkok ever flood before they filled in most of the klongs to make roads and where did the klongs drain to?

I know some circumstances have changed and influence major flooding is caused by deforestration and major development along with changed weather patterns etc , but did the authorities make things worse by filling the klongs in ?

Xen, Indeed you are spot on with this. The klongs weren't built by man, they were there as a result of natural drainage patterns. Bangkok is basically one huge drainage basin for the foothills of the himlayas which start in Chang Mai. Swampy is called swampy for a reason. So yes, filling in the klongs etc basically means the water has nowhere to go, hence the flooding.

Building the tunnels is just remaking what nature did for free (and we destroyed). Bangkok will flood and continue to flood simple beacuse of its geography,. The reason flooding is worse now than in the past is that bangkok is larger than in the past.

Basically we live with the flooding or move to somewhere that don't flood.

"The klongs weren't built by man"

It's amazing how these natural klongs run so straight and often cross each other at right angles.

I think you will find that the klongs were man made. The whole area was swamp, the Thais dug the klongs to drain the land.

[canuckamuck]

I might be a bit dense here, but wouldn't sending water to the Chaoprayah be difficult if the flood is coming from the Chaoprayah and the sea (high tides)?

As best, I can see this drainage system will help with rain from localized storms but do nothing to prevent the big floods.

[jonclark]

Just a question - did Bangkok ever flood before they filled in most of the klongs to make roads and where did the klongs drain to?

I know some circumstances have changed and influence major flooding is caused by deforestration and major development along with changed weather patterns etc , but did the authorities make things worse by filling the klongs in ?

Xen, Indeed you are spot on with this. The klongs weren't built by man, they were there as a result of natural drainage patterns. Bangkok is basically one huge drainage basin for the foothills of the himlayas which start in Chang Mai. Swampy is called swampy for a reason. So yes, filling in the klongs etc basically means the water has nowhere to go, hence the flooding.

Building the tunnels is just remaking what nature did for free (and we destroyed). Bangkok will flood and continue to flood simple beacuse of its geography,. The reason flooding is worse now than in the past is that bangkok is larger than in the past.

Basically we live with the flooding or move to somewhere that don't flood.

"The klongs weren't built by man"

It's amazing how these natural klongs run so straight and often cross each other at right angles.

I think you will find that the klongs were man made. The whole area was swamp, the Thais dug the klongs to drain the land.

555 fair point, but the fact they were built to drain the land, because Bkk is built in a natural drainage basin and are now filled, leading to a return to the natural balance, i.e. flooding in supports the basic tenent of my post. Thanks

[whybother]

... but the fact they were built to drain the land, because Bkk is built in a natural drainage basin and are now filled, leading to a return to the natural balance, i.e. flooding in supports the basic tenent of my post. Thanks

I have seen a lot of people talk about the klongs being filled in. Is it as simple as that? Are the klongs just being replaced by drainage pipes where development is "filling the klongs in"?

Ofcouse, if that is happening, are these drainage pipes then getting blocked with silt and rubbish and therefore not draining the areas properly.

Asoke used to flood all the time when ever there was some rain, but then they did some works (I don't believe they put in NEW drainage) and now it rarely floods, certainly not as bad as a few years ago. Did they just clean out the existing drainage so the water drained away faster?

[chainarong]

This type of water run off tunnel is already being done on Hong Kong Island , they sorta had run off problems, after stuffing up the geology , the end result of man made in fill, to enlarge the island, so that more millions of Chinese could live there.

[Humphrey Bear]

Drains can help in keeping the area free from flooding.

The idea of some 'very large pipes', though, seems a touch wild to me. A drainage system would help - small collectors delivering to larger transporters, then to the 'giant' pipes, from where the water could be pumped. Or alternatively the giant pipes could be attached to the final point of the current system(s) and water pumped away from the existing system(s) to a disposal area - e.g. the sea or river.

But you will need very large pumps to clear this amount of water per second.

My concern would be when the pipes are empty. BKK is built on a high water table area, the pipes will probably be laid in a wet part of the ground - a few metres of cover, so they will want to float when empty.

Also, how much water will they handle, compared to the amount that falls over their catchment area over the same period? Has the maths been done? Correctly? To me it seems to be far to little for the high volume that may occur at peak times. And we don't want the water stored in the streets until there is the capacity to drain it.

[Humphrey Bear]

A 1.8m diameter pipe has a cross-sectional area of 2.55 sq.m.

A 5.0m diameter pipe has a cross-sectional area of 19.6 sq.m.

So 7.7 times the capacity, when full.

How much research have these people done?

[Humphrey Bear]

From 95 to 240 cu.m. per second is an increase of 145 cu.m./sec.

The X-sect area of the new pipes is 19-20 sq.m. each, maybe more if they are larger than 5m diameter. Four of them - total of around 75 sq.m., or 50 sq.m. at 2/3rds full.

Thus flow rate is <3 metres/sec.

This sounds like a gravity system to me, with the pumps stuck at the far end to pump the water out of the system, not to move the water along the pipes. The velocity is a touch high, I would calculate on somewhere around 2.4 m/sec myself.

So what will be needed at the far end of these new tunnels is a series of pumps with a high head pressure to lift the water out of the system and into a retaining structure.

[TheyCallmeScooter]

I was just speaking to Raphael and Michelangelo and they're so happy they could die.

Donetelo is playing it cool, but I could tell he was pretty psyched.

[mythBuster]

That Bangkok drowns is fine. It is a matter of som nam naa. All the big Klongs have been covered with Asphalt, all spare land have been build on by the rich who like to live near the water. More of a concern should be how to prevent the poor farmers in Ayutthaya from being forced to lose their crops because certain circles demand that their rice farms are used to store the excess water. The fact that influential families own some land there does not need to mean that all others must suffer, year after year, after year, after year

[TheyCallmeScooter]

That Bangkok drowns is fine. It is a matter of som nam naa. All the big Klongs have been covered with Asphalt, all spare land have been build on by the rich who like to live near the water. More of a concern should be how to prevent the poor farmers in Ayutthaya from being forced to lose their crops because certain circles demand that their rice farms are used to store the excess water. The fact that influential families own some land there does not need to mean that all others must suffer, year after year, after year, after year

Good heavens.

If you get your wish, and Bangkok drowns, where do you think the trillions of baht Abhisit is attempting to ship upcountry to those poor farmers, will come from - exactly?

If I had only 100 x your character, I would say "Som nom na, indeed!"

Thankfully, I have a great deal more character. And instead suggest that, instead of hoping a city which is home to 20,000,000 'drowns', or supporting those who burn it, you and your 'brothers' should instead focus on drawing attention to the laws you claim are allowing rich families to illegally divert rainfall onto the poor farmers' land.

Of course, the fact that you have no problem with those poor farmers voting in their Peau Thai and BJT and other corrupt MPs every chance they get (MPs are the guys that make the laws, if you were unaware)...and continue to do so despite the fact that they do nothing for the farmers they bought their votes from....is a fact that makes you look pretty stupid, does it not?

Either the rich families are preventing the MPs voted into office by the poor (literally, NOT figuratively - I have an aversion to anyone who accepts or propagates a culture of selling their teenage girls into the sex trade) farmers from changing the laws, or....? What? They vote in candidates who do nothing for them. How can they be expected to draw sympathy when are responsible for their own position? In ways that are criminal, rather than tragic.

Actually, screw character.

Som nom na to your idiot farmers who sell their votes and their children into the sex trade and then attack the one guy who's trying to help them.

[LaoPo]

"They will be like underground highways for floodwater to reach the Chao Phraya River and the sea with the speed of draining four standardsize swimming pools in one second," said Sukhumbhand.

For people who were born in a country, below sea-level, it's incomprehensible that the authorities have chosen for the option to build Giant Tunnels enabling excess water flows running into the Chao Phraya river + sea..

Totally incomprehensible.

What, when the Chao Phraya river is way ABOVE sea level, what already happened many times and THUS flooding Bangkok and surrounding areas ?

Where is the excess water flow going to in such circumstances, or even worse in the scenario I painted earlier, with a huge storm, combined with Spring tide and floodings, coming from up north ?

The only solution is smart water management and sacrificing surrounding lowlands PLUS hill/mountain valleys, further upnorth/upstream storing and buffering huge excess waters.

The Netherlands only have their own lowlands to store excessive water supplies* and therefore have asked Germany, Belgium and France (and to a lesser extent Switzerland) to help them and "store" excessive water flows in valleys in times of need since those waters come from the other countries' sources but ending in TN.

Thailand has plenty of space on their own to store their own water supplies, coming from rivers and tropical rainfall.

A solution, building giant tunnels, is a temporarily measure, meant to calm the Bangkok citizens, nothing else.

Thailand is a fine example full of people -67 million of them- , complaining 2 times a year:

1 x in periods with severe droughts (a few months ago)

1 x during severe floodings (right now)

At the same time it's a blessed tropical country with huge amounts of water supplies, enabling perfect harvests of all kinds of crops but a lazy country at the same time when it comes to droughts, existing since the country was "born"...

It's easier to blame fellow surrounding countries that THEY are the cause of droughts...yeah sure.

* The Netherlands, without their dunes and dikes would be under water for 65-75% of their land surface !

The only solution is smart water management.

LaoPo

Edited November 12, 2010 by LaoPo

[elshaheen]

Thailand has already built them. They are the tunnels used for MRT.

[fiercesnake]

Usual nonsense time scale! Seriously it "AIN'T goin' to happen" by Jan next year, just a few weeks away. Many posters here have already listed the challenges to overcome and I sincerely doubt if the locals will have the engineering skills to produce such a monumental achievement in such a short time. Tunnel production is a major undertaking and logistics of being at or below sea level begs the logical question where are they piping it to and how exactly?

As usual, looks good, but underneath the dodgy new paint job, it's still just a rusty car!

[asiawatcher]

Water has to run off due to gravity. If Bangkok is a zero seal level already how can the water drain? I am no engineer but logic would dictate getting water from flooded areas would need at least to be at ground level then a tunnel would be below ground level - thus sea level - so how can the water flow out? Am I missing the point somehow?

[cup-O-coffee]

I am not an engineer, but I am not stupid, gullible, or ignorant on an issue such as this, and described to me in such a childish manner. This is a white elephant! A money pit! Don't do it!

Any search on Google will tell you that anything remotely close to this sort of project takes years and years of research and billions of dollars US.

How can anyone take this seriously? No release of feasibility and environmental study costs, geological surveys for channeling through water, mud, slime, solid rock, raw sewage, etc. - water storage, sewage separation, countless tonnes of drain-clogging refuse, massive pumping stations, sky-rocketing building and maintenance costs, tunnel routes, depths, methods, tools, etc?

"Really big tunnels" simply will not address hydrostatic pressure and a water table that is almost at ground surface level and has a radius of hundreds and hundreds of kilometers; this, even in a dry season. This is a child's response to a very and real problem of historical proportions.

A casual look at how well maintained the existing drainage and irrigation is perfectly describes a scary futuristic scenario. I trust this system will need high maintenance by responsible, qualified and dedicated engineers and technicians. These people can not even keep swimming pools clean.

What information has anyone in government provided that describes their comprehensive knowledge of hundreds of square kilometers of a water table grid; its hydrostatic water flows, water retention and pools, etc. all mapped out and used to dictate the tunnel placement? How will these grids of tunnels take into consideration the balance of flow of a heavy rain season? How will they know which tunnels will get the most water and not cause a backup, while other tunnels remain dry, and could be used as side-channels to detour heavy water traffic? Will there be computerized monitoring stations where a technician can alter the different pumps and flood gates to redirect water?

After all, we are describing traffic here; not vehicles, but water. Will the water be directed like vehicle traffic? If so, then we are in trouble!

No pumping stations? No computerized monitoring stations with sensors to detect the level of water, and the ability to redirect it into other channels using computerized flood gates? Just "really big tunnels" that you can drive your truck through. Pathetic.

And finally, what makes anyone so sure that one or one thousand "gravity" tunnels will alleviate the massive water problem?

I get a picture of a man trying to siphon out an Olympic-sized swimming pool with a coffee straw. I am suggesting that the hydrostatic pressure of the ocean and higher elevations during a flood season will come at a rate that 1000 tunnels and pumps could not begin to assuage.

One does not have to be a rocket scientist, or even an engineer, to have a suspicious and dubious faith in this news.

[TheyCallmeScooter]

I don't understand why dozens of us are getting our panties in a knot? Are any of us "flood management experts"?

Thailand has numerous "flood management experts". Surely they have approved of the Giant Tunnel Plan, for I haven't seen any of them criticising the plan for inadequacies.

I know Thailand has numerous "flood management experts" because they all came out of the woodwork to criticise PM Abhisit for his failings recently when Thailand experienced it's worst flooding in decades.

http://www.nationmul...i-30140683.html

Govt blasted for mishandling crisis, lack of planning

By The Nation

A flood-management expert yesterday criticised the government for mishandling relief operations and failing to carry out preventive measures before the flooding across the country reached a critical level.

Phornphilai Lertwicha, a Thailand Research Fund (TRF) researcher, said the heavy flooding in Nakhon Ratchasima, which is on a plateau in the Northeast, was a testimony to the government's failures.

She said some flood management and action plans had been carried out at the national level, "but during this government's term, we have not witnessed any clear-cut action, despite annual flooding in Thailand. We never learn any lessons, and we let it happen, over and over."

I strongly suggest the government stop trying to do the experts' job and start listening to Phornphilai and her other opinionated colleagues. After all, they are the ones with the experience and the expertise in "flood management". At least, they have the expertise to proscribe the government's failures in adopting their non-existent? constructive prescriptions / solutions).

I strongly suggest the government immediately actions every single one of the "preventative measures" as outlined by Phornphilai and the "flood management experts", as they are extensively outlined by The Nation's report above.

I couldn't actually identify any recommendations, myself. But they must be there in the article somewhere. Because to publish criticism by a "flood management expert" without specifically stating what the 'expert' would like the government to have done or how - exactly - the government 'failed'...why, that would just be slanderous, irresponsible, cheap (negative) point-scoring and would be nothing more than an embarrassment for The Nation and the "flood management expert" they are quoting.

But of course, that's not how The Nation rolls. The Thai media is looked up to by their colleagues around the world, for their courage to continually criticise despite the oppressive censorship they are forced to endure. Heroes! Each and every one of the 14 million OpEd writers in Thailand's media.

So clearly there is constructive criticism in there somewhere. With a detailed plan for what the 'expert' would like to see done. I probably just can't identify the technical details, due to not being a "flood management expert", myself. There's no chance whatsoever that Thailand's "flood management experts" are staying quiet, waiting to see if the Giant Tunnels work (at which point they will no doubt continue their silence) or fail (at which point they will ruefully shake their heads at government 'failures'). Because if they are doing that, I can do that! For 1/10th of what they're being paid for their expertise.

Call me, government! Hire me to do their (collective) jobs. It's the fiscally responsible thing to do.

Edited November 14, 2010 by TheyCallmeScooter

[Chang_paarp]

Can someone do a search on this?

I seem to remember it was proposed a couple of years ago. (3or4?) Back in the days when JaiDee was posting the news. The engineers of the day were less than complimentary, maybe there is a new version of engineering to make it work.

[Piengrudee]

Watch too much Italian jobs? Min 5:20 . . . . . http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGYPYtMgf7Y