Bangkok-Nong Khai High-Speed Train Project To Be Completed Late 2015

[Daewoo]

Thought I could weigh into this debate... I have some relevant knoweledge...

I am a communications engineer, working now in sales and marketting...

I worked in Malaysia on a section of the Singapore to Shanghai rail, until the project was abandoned because of THE MALAYSIAN GOVERNMENT...

I still work actively in the rail sector, and know most of the major players...

I work for a Chinese tech company...

Daewoo's points...

1) Chinese companies in the field only win projects because a) it is tied to Chinese Bank Funding (must be 70% Chinese Product) or, because the project is in China, and the project is awarded to a Chinese company so they have a reference case to try and win international projects...

2) There are pretty much three parts to any rail tender - Firstly, Rolling Stock (Locomotives and Carriages), second, Civil (land prep and tracks, including stations and halts) and Power if it is electrified, and thirdly, communications and signalling... China can hold it's own with the supply of (dumb) rolling stock, but struggles to sell locomotives internationally... China can definately take the lead on construction, even though all of the materials and labour will be local... China has almost know capability in signalling and train control (internationally)...

3) China's biggest downfall is without doubt NOT the quality of their goods... all of the high quality goods are manufactured in China... it isn't the quality of their R&D, all of the European vendors do their R&D in China... the biggest problem for Chinese vendors is undertanding other markets and their requirements... to an extent, they have a domestic market of 1.3Bn people, who demand cheap crap, and struggle to make the step from that to high quality more expensive products, and western style sales and marketting...

Cheers,

Daewoo

Edited November 29, 2010 by Daewoo

[Piengrudee]

2015? It is already year 2553.

[LaoPo]

PS: do you mean the Hangzhou high speed hub to Shanghai vv ?

LaoPo

Hong chow is the hub in Shanghai Laopo. Bad spelling on my behalf.

Rick

Hongqiao Station Hub that is ..never been there though.

But, I admit, Chinese names are so difficult for us westerners.

LaoPo

[LaoPo]

Thought I could weigh into this debate... I have some relevant knoweledge...

I am a communications engineer, working now in sales and marketting...

I worked in Malaysia on a section of the Singapore to Shanghai rail, until the project was abandoned because of THE MALAYSIAN GOVERNMENT...

I still work actively in the rail sector, and know most of the major players...

I work for a Chinese tech company...

Daewoo's points...

1) Chinese companies in the field only win projects because a) it is tied to Chinese Bank Funding (must be 70% Chinese Product) or, because the project is in China, and the project is awarded to a Chinese company so they have a reference case to try and win international projects...

2) There are pretty much three parts to any rail tender - Firstly, Rolling Stock (Locomotives and Carriages), second, Civil (land prep and tracks, including stations and halts) and Power if it is electrified, and thirdly, communications and signalling... China can hold it's own with the supply of (dumb) rolling stock, but struggles to sell locomotives internationally... China can definately take the lead on construction, even though all of the materials and labour will be local... China has almost know capability in signalling and train control (internationally)...

3) China's biggest downfall is without doubt NOT the quality of their goods... all of the high quality goods are manufactured in China... it isn't the quality of their R&D, all of the European vendors do their R&D in China... the biggest problem for Chinese vendors is undertanding other markets and their requirements... to an extent, they have a domestic market of 1.3Bn people, who demand cheap crap, and struggle to make the step from that to high quality more expensive products, and western style sales and marketting...

Cheers,

Daewoo

Good points Daewoo and thanks for your expertise input.

One point though on your remark: "...who demand cheap crap"...

That's a big problem in China indeed but not just for China but also for oversees buyers; The Buyers force the manufacturers on many occasions to bring the prices down, down and further down, leaving manufacturers no other options than to cut to cheaper basic materials ending up with inferior products.

I've been there, seen it when oversees buyers were using the thumb screws, waving with big orders, saying: "take it or leave it" and often it goes very far, from buying cheaper buttons, made of inferior quality to making products smaller (fashion).

It's mainly a communication problem since oversees buyers have no clue about prices of local basic materials and where to get them.

Chinese buyers are used to cheap products and often don't (want to) see the difference in quality.

It takes time (the rich know already) to realize one can better buy a product which is a little more expensive but better quality but you tell that to the Chinese buyers

But, if the oversees buyers would tell the manufacturer to produce the BEST product with the best materials, he would love to do so; no problem.

"Western styles sales and marketing" good point, but IF they would know already so in many different kinds of business and products they would overflow the world wide markets.

NOW, the business is still done, for the major part: China produces, the West decides WHAT they have to make. Not the other way around.

But that will change, rapidly; it was the same with Japan, 50 years ago but this China wave will be a lot bigger.

Most of the Japanese and Korean manufacturers produce the majority of their products in China.

LaoPo

[tw25rw]

I'll have to dig for precise info, but I heard that 2 of China's high speed lines have had their speeds limited as the track wasn't laid properly.. Track that was designed to last 60 years has only seen 2-3 years operating as originally designed. China makes good looking stuff on the cheap, but if you want it done with some quality, you'll need to get the Germans in.

[bangkokrick]

PS: do you mean the Hangzhou high speed hub to Shanghai vv ?

LaoPo

Hong chow is the hub in Shanghai Laopo. Bad spelling on my behalf.

Rick

Hongqiao Station Hub that is ..never been there though.

But, I admit, Chinese names are so difficult for us westerners.

LaoPo

Make it part of your trip next time. It's awesome to see and very convenient.

You are right about the Chinese names. Nightmare!

Rick

[Cnxforever]

The Bangkok Suvarnabhumi rail link began in 1997 and finally opened this year.

5 years to get all the way to Nong Khai? I'll believe when it happens.

exactly....in their dreams! I mean you could do it in 5 years - but the result would probably be a roller-coaster ride!! They can not even built a proper road here which is straight and doesn't have to be repaired or resurfaced every 2 years.

The train the Thai PM was traveling on in Shanghai and credited the Chinese with during his visit was the German "Transrapid" not Chinese as Abhisit thought. That train is also totally different as it is magnetic - the costs are enormous.

The Chinese only "think" they can copy the European high speed trains - they are only 20 years behind in technology and we don't even need to mention the "quality" of Chinese products!

Having bought and finally given up on all the cheap Chinese crap over the years - from power drills to bottle openers - which usually last about anything between 1day -6 month - I would surely not travel on a Chinese / Thai made - HIGH SPEED train!!

How many derailments have Thai Railways had in the last 5 years?? And those where luckily at ultra low speed!

I mean would you fly and take your family on a Chinese / Thai made airplane? Some kind of a Tuk-Tuk with wings assembled with Chinese power tools and cheaply copied components?

Sorry to sound negative but there are things - especially technology you trust your life with - where QUALITY comes first!

[LaoPo]

I'll have to dig for precise info, but I heard that 2 of China's high speed lines have had their speeds limited as the track wasn't laid properly.. Track that was designed to last 60 years has only seen 2-3 years operating as originally designed. China makes good looking stuff on the cheap, but if you want it done with some quality, you'll need to get the Germans in.

1. Yes, please let us have that info

2. Knowing Germany and it's products very well I'm the last to say that German quality isn't good..it IS generally very good.

Yet, I had a few bad experiences with BMW cars and a Benz as well (still have one).

3. But to be fair, I could find and dig for problems with the same high speed trains and tracks from other countries also; can't I?

I'm also sure that with over 7.000 km of high speed train tracks in China there must have been a few problems; sure.

But, how many train accidents can you find in this list with more than 90+ deaths in China ?

http://en.wikipedia....s_and_disasters

And:

The world's worst rail accidents

http://www.telegraph...-accidents.html

It's all in the eyes aqnd brain of the "believer" how bad something is or can be. but one should be fair and the number of train accidents in China with it's enormous railway systems (now: 86.000 km to be extended to 110.000 in 2012) is relatively low in comparison to other parts of the world; yet, they still occur once in a while.

NEXT:

In 2 or 3 decades the worldwide high speed train networks will be outdated and slowly but surely replaced by the MAGLEV train system (3 already commercially operating for the public: Japan, China and South Korea) :

http://en.wikipedia....9#First_patents

LaoPo

[bangkokrick]

The Bangkok Suvarnabhumi rail link began in 1997 and finally opened this year.

5 years to get all the way to Nong Khai? I'll believe when it happens.

exactly....in their dreams! I mean you could do it in 5 years - but the result would probably be a roller-coaster ride!! They can not even built a proper road here which is straight and doesn't have to be repaired or resurfaced every 2 years.

The train the Thai PM was traveling on in Shanghai and credited the Chinese with during his visit was the German "Transrapid" not Chinese as Abhisit thought. That train is also totally different as it is magnetic - the costs are enormous.

The Chinese only "think" they can copy the European high speed trains - they are only 20 years behind in technology and we don't even need to mention the "quality" of Chinese products!

Having bought and finally given up on all the cheap Chinese crap over the years - from power drills to bottle openers - which usually last about anything between 1day -6 month - I would surely not travel on a Chinese / Thai made - HIGH SPEED train!!

How many derailments have Thai Railways had in the last 5 years?? And those where luckily at ultra low speed!

I mean would you fly and take your family on a Chinese / Thai made airplane? Some kind of a Tuk-Tuk with wings assembled with Chinese power tools and cheaply copied components?

Sorry to sound negative but there are things - especially technology you trust your life with - where QUALITY comes first!

You might unwittingly be doing that in the future. There is a joint venture with Boeing going on at the moment. the other thing is that Chinese quality has improved tremendously over the past few years. They are buying state of the art machinery and the Know how from the west.

Rick

[Cnxforever]

I'll have to dig for precise info, but I heard that 2 of China's high speed lines have had their speeds limited as the track wasn't laid properly.. Track that was designed to last 60 years has only seen 2-3 years operating as originally designed. China makes good looking stuff on the cheap, but if you want it done with some quality, you'll need to get the Germans in.

NEXT:

In 2 or 3 decades the worldwide high speed train networks will be outdated and slowly but surely replaced by the MAGLEV train system (3 already commercially operating for the public: Japan, China and South Korea) :

http://en.wikipedia....9#First_patents

LaoPo

There is only one problem with the MAGLEV train - it is far to expensive - the cost for the 30.5 km in shanghai are believed to be 1.35 billion US$ - the tickets at 50 RMB for one person is also far to expensive for most Chinese comuters.

from wikipedia:

quote

Transrapid is a German high-speed monorail train using magnetic levitation. Based on a patent from 1934, planning of the Transrapid system started in 1969. The test facility for the system in Emsland, Germany was completed in 1987. In 1991, the technical readiness for application was approved by the Deutsche Bundesbahn in cooperation with renowned universities.

Its current application-ready version, the Transrapid 09, has been designed for 500 km/h cruising speed and allows acceleration and deceleration of approx. 1 m/s².

In 2004, the first commercial implementation was completed. The Shanghai Maglev Train connects the rapid transit network 30.5 km (19.0 mi) to the Shanghai Pudong International Airport. The Transrapid system has not yet been deployed on a long-distance intercity line.

The system is developed and marketed by Transrapid International, a joint venture of Siemens and ThyssenKrupp.

unquote

[Thai at Heart]

Any info on how they intend to create a "parallel" track?

[LaoPo]

I'll have to dig for precise info, but I heard that 2 of China's high speed lines have had their speeds limited as the track wasn't laid properly.. Track that was designed to last 60 years has only seen 2-3 years operating as originally designed. China makes good looking stuff on the cheap, but if you want it done with some quality, you'll need to get the Germans in.

NEXT:

In 2 or 3 decades the worldwide high speed train networks will be outdated and slowly but surely replaced by the MAGLEV train system (3 already commercially operating for the public: Japan, China and South Korea) :

http://en.wikipedia....9#First_patents

LaoPo

There is only one problem with the MAGLEV train - it is far to expensive - ...........

Sure, but planes, flying non-stop for 12 hours weren't built overnight as well and were too expensive in the beginning also.

If anybody would have told you 100 years ago that people didn't need to write letters anymore, taking 6 months to arrive on the other side of the world because people would have a machine where they could write messages, readable instantly at 20.000 miles away and that people would go on holiday 10.000 miles away and arrive there in 12 hours, they would have put you in a nuthouse

During the Inquisition they would have tortured you, broken all your bones, put you on a stake, burned or left to rot in a cage, hanging from the walls of the city.

Developments go faster now than anyone here on this forum can possibly think of.

Don't tell me you knew, 20 years ago, that Apple computers would been built by the millions in China; 7 million iPads alone this last quarter of 2010 and a staggering 40 (!) million in 2011.

Too expensive.....?

What's expensive if merchandise can be transported within days rather than 4-6 weeks sitting in a container?

The MAGLEV or any other invention will be FAR cheaper than any other transport-system.

It's not a quation IF it's expensive but WHEN...

LaoPo

Edited November 29, 2010 by LaoPo

[Daewoo]

Good points Daewoo and thanks for your expertise input.

I am enjoying the debate... good on you for playing 'devil's advocate'

One point though on your remark: "...who demand cheap crap"...

That's a big problem in China indeed but not just for China but also for oversees buyers; The Buyers force the manufacturers on many occasions to bring the prices down, down and further down, leaving manufacturers no other options than to cut to cheaper basic materials ending up with inferior products.

I've been there, seen it when oversees buyers were using the thumb screws, waving with big orders, saying: "take it or leave it" and often it goes very far, from buying cheaper buttons, made of inferior quality to making products smaller (fashion).

You might be right in Fast Moving Consumer Goods (FMCG) (and I don't mean fast moving trains)... If people were willing to pay for quality, we would all be using German whtie goods, made in Germany... but WRT the Chinese Market, they didn't grow up with the same view of quality as we did... I grew up with fond memories of a fridge and a TV than lasted 25 years... The Chinese only became consumers 15 years ago... they grew up with disposable items, where low price, and short cycles allowed the consumer to upgrade to a newer, flashier product...

My point is, a factory is a factory no matter where it is built... humans only opperate the factory... The Chinese build factories to manufacture to their 1.3bn domestic market (1/6 of the worlds population or something, right?)... unless a foreign company builds the factory, to make products to foreign quality standards, you can't make a quality product in a factory that isn't designed that way...

The company I work for has international standard quality control, and a quality standard the equivalent of any European rival...

But that will change, rapidly; it was the same with Japan, 50 years ago but this China wave will be a lot bigger.

Most of the Japanese and Korean manufacturers produce the majority of their products in China.

Yes, but that was because the Japanese are smart, they were open to 'outsiders' opinions, and saw the value of Quality when shown by the Americans (even when the Americans themselves couldn't)... The Koreans follwed the Japanese after they saw how successful it was...

The Chinese are different - they trust no one, and are trusted by no one... Unless you can convince a Chinese 'boss' (and I mean senior VP) that it was their idea, they simply will not even offer an alternative to what all the other bosses think... If we think the Thai education stiffles free thinking, the Chinese could teach the Thais how to stiffle it even further...

closer to the topic... I am working on three rail project is Australia at the moment... all of them are Heavy Rail from the mine to the port (to ship more of Australia to China)... they are in remote Australia, so there are no 'human' issues to worry about, like displacing people off their land... there are no existing rail requirements to worry about... There are almost unlimited funds ($US6bn just for the rail project) because the rail project is dwarfed by the cost of building the mines and port facilities, and by the profits the mines will bring...

From concept to completion they are 6 year projects... my experience with passenger rail is you should double that because of the enormous focus on safety... to over-build an existing line, probably half as much again, so 15 years from concept to completion is probably right... if the project was first conceived in 2003 (when I was working on part of the Malaysian section) we might have a couple of years work already done, but it is still probably 12 years away...

You can't run high speed passenger trains on a freight rail... Typically, high speed rail is elevated on concrete slabs rather than 'typical' sleeper and balast rail for freight/slow passenger rail, because you can not afford any possibilty of cars/trucks being in the rail corridor.. i.e. no 'level crossings' for roads...

Cheers,

Daewoo

[Cuchulainn]

2015? It is already year 2553.

Quiet in the cheap seats, please!!

[LaoPo]

You might be right in Fast Moving Consumer Goods (FMCG) (and I don't mean fast moving trains)... If people were willing to pay for quality, we would all be using German whtie goods, made in Germany... but WRT the Chinese Market, they didn't grow up with the same view of quality as we did... I grew up with fond memories of a fridge and a TV than lasted 25 years... The Chinese only became consumers 15 years ago... they grew up with disposable items, where low price, and short cycles allowed the consumer to upgrade to a newer, flashier product...

My point is, a factory is a factory no matter where it is built... humans only opperate the factory... The Chinese build factories to manufacture to their 1.3bn domestic market (1/6 of the worlds population or something, right?)... unless a foreign company builds the factory, to make products to foreign quality standards, you can't make a quality product in a factory that isn't designed that way...

The company I work for has international standard quality control, and a quality standard the equivalent of any European rival...

But that will change, rapidly; it was the same with Japan, 50 years ago but this China wave will be a lot bigger.

Most of the Japanese and Korean manufacturers produce the majority of their products in China.

Yes, but that was because the Japanese are smart, they were open to 'outsiders' opinions, and saw the value of Quality when shown by the Americans (even when the Americans themselves couldn't)... The Koreans follwed the Japanese after they saw how successful it was...

The Chinese are different - they trust no one, and are trusted by no one... Unless you can convince a Chinese 'boss' (and I mean senior VP) that it was their idea, they simply will not even offer an alternative to what all the other bosses think... If we think the Thai education stiffles free thinking, the Chinese could teach the Thais how to stiffle it even further...

closer to the topic... I am working on three rail project is Australia at the moment... all of them are Heavy Rail from the mine to the port (to ship more of Australia to China)... they are in remote Australia, so there are no 'human' issues to worry about, like displacing people off their land... there are no existing rail requirements to worry about... There are almost unlimited funds ($US6bn just for the rail project) because the rail project is dwarfed by the cost of building the mines and port facilities, and by the profits the mines will bring...

From concept to completion they are 6 year projects... my experience with passenger rail is you should double that because of the enormous focus on safety... to over-build an existing line, probably half as much again, so 15 years from concept to completion is probably right... if the project was first conceived in 2003 (when I was working on part of the Malaysian section) we might have a couple of years work already done, but it is still probably 12 years away...

You can't run high speed passenger trains on a freight rail... Typically, high speed rail is elevated on concrete slabs rather than 'typical' sleeper and balast rail for freight/slow passenger rail, because you can not afford any possibilty of cars/trucks being in the rail corridor.. i.e. no 'level crossings' for roads...

Cheers,

Daewoo

Impressive post!

Let me try to answer

1. Of course people (with money) want to buy quality products. People with little money buy products which fit their wallets and can't (yet) buy expensive foreign quality products. The same all over Asia and China is no exception.

2. Factories: yes, also correct. The Chinese built factories for their own population's products only after the opening up in 1989 when private production after Deng Xiapoing was encouraged/approved.

The population was so excited about all the new products that they didn't care much for quality but that's changing very very fast since you can't fool the buyers anymore.

A big issue is still the lack of quality control in many factories since nobody ever paid attention to it. Nobody ever taught them about quality control but they're learning fast.

3. I don't think the Chinese are different from the Japanese/Koreans when it comes to learning and improving; maybe you worked in a too specialized sector/market where that kind of behavior is still normal but my experience tells me (although they will never admit...!) that they DO listen and learn from Westerners/Japanese and Koreans. They go fast..very fast and I've seen and accompanied many Chinese in Europe who are SO eager to learn and improve.

They're not stupid and in your face they might not want to admit that they want to learn and even show superior behavior (especially to their own workers) but at night, when the lamps are out, they will work bloody hard to improve their factory and ideas + products!

4. Rail construction: you have a lot of experience and your explanation about the construction in Australia is interesting and impressive. What I miss is the lenght in Km of the construction, to be done in 6 years...is that 500 km or 2.000 km; from mining to port ?

How many people are REALLY involved, building those train tracks in 24/7?

Are there 5.000 people or 100.000 people working on these 6 years' train tracks ? It makes a difference.

5. I understand that there is a large difference between passenger- and freight rail but for freight rail (containers) an average of 120 to 150 km on completely new tracks should be possible....right?

If so, transport time from Eastern and Northern China all the way to Singapore (and via another track via Burma which is also under planning to Yangon/Rangoon) would save at least 1-2 weeks transportation time.

Not to forget the future freight train tracks from Asia to Europe.

LaoPo

[maxa]

The Bangkok Suvarnabhumi rail link began in 1997 and finally opened this year.

5 years to get all the way to Nong Khai? I'll believe when it happens.

exactly....in their dreams! I mean you could do it in 5 years - but the result would probably be a roller-coaster ride!! They can not even built a proper road here which is straight and doesn't have to be repaired or resurfaced every 2 years.

The train the Thai PM was traveling on in Shanghai and credited the Chinese with during his visit was the German "Transrapid" not Chinese as Abhisit thought. That train is also totally different as it is magnetic - the costs are enormous.

The Chinese only "think" they can copy the European high speed trains - they are only 20 years behind in technology and we don't even need to mention the "quality" of Chinese products!

Having bought and finally given up on all the cheap Chinese crap over the years - from power drills to bottle openers - which usually last about anything between 1day -6 month - I would surely not travel on a Chinese / Thai made - HIGH SPEED train!!

How many derailments have Thai Railways had in the last 5 years?? And those where luckily at ultra low speed!

I mean would you fly and take your family on a Chinese / Thai made airplane? Some kind of a Tuk-Tuk with wings assembled with Chinese power tools and cheaply copied components?

Sorry to sound negative but there are things - especially technology you trust your life with - where QUALITY comes first!

You're right regarding Chinese/Thai made airplanes, fly Airbus 380 with RR Trent 900 engines

You ought to read up on China Railways, they are most likely more advanced than the railways in your own country.As things are in Thailand,it is of no surprise,that SRT is in poor shape.The management should take a look at what Malaysia did between KL and Ipoh/Taiping.......up to 160km/h are possible on 1000mm gauge.

[roamer]

The Bangkok Suvarnabhumi rail link began in 1997 and finally opened this year.

5 years to get all the way to Nong Khai? I'll believe when it happens.

exactly....in their dreams! I mean you could do it in 5 years - but the result would probably be a roller-coaster ride!! They can not even built a proper road here which is straight and doesn't have to be repaired or resurfaced every 2 years.

The train the Thai PM was traveling on in Shanghai and credited the Chinese with during his visit was the German "Transrapid" not Chinese as Abhisit thought. That train is also totally different as it is magnetic - the costs are enormous.

The Chinese only "think" they can copy the European high speed trains - they are only 20 years behind in technology and we don't even need to mention the "quality" of Chinese products!

Having bought and finally given up on all the cheap Chinese crap over the years - from power drills to bottle openers - which usually last about anything between 1day -6 month - I would surely not travel on a Chinese / Thai made - HIGH SPEED train!!

How many derailments have Thai Railways had in the last 5 years?? And those where luckily at ultra low speed!

I mean would you fly and take your family on a Chinese / Thai made airplane? Some kind of a Tuk-Tuk with wings assembled with Chinese power tools and cheaply copied components?

Sorry to sound negative but there are things - especially technology you trust your life with - where QUALITY comes first!

You're right regarding Chinese/Thai made airplanes, fly Airbus 380 with RR Trent 900 engines

You ought to read up on China Railways, they are most likely more advanced than the railways in your own country.As things are in Thailand,it is of no surprise,that SRT is in poor shape.The management should take a look at what Malaysia did between KL and Ipoh/Taiping.......up to 160km/h are possible on 1000mm gauge.

No worries. Err 1 incident with that engine and your going to get in a plane with a Hoo dun wot engine ? Good luck.

Edited November 30, 2010 by roamer

[maxa]

The Bangkok Suvarnabhumi rail link began in 1997 and finally opened this year.

5 years to get all the way to Nong Khai? I'll believe when it happens.

exactly....in their dreams! I mean you could do it in 5 years - but the result would probably be a roller-coaster ride!! They can not even built a proper road here which is straight and doesn't have to be repaired or resurfaced every 2 years.

The train the Thai PM was traveling on in Shanghai and credited the Chinese with during his visit was the German "Transrapid" not Chinese as Abhisit thought. That train is also totally different as it is magnetic - the costs are enormous.

The Chinese only "think" they can copy the European high speed trains - they are only 20 years behind in technology and we don't even need to mention the "quality" of Chinese products!

Having bought and finally given up on all the cheap Chinese crap over the years - from power drills to bottle openers - which usually last about anything between 1day -6 month - I would surely not travel on a Chinese / Thai made - HIGH SPEED train!!

How many derailments have Thai Railways had in the last 5 years?? And those where luckily at ultra low speed!

I mean would you fly and take your family on a Chinese / Thai made airplane? Some kind of a Tuk-Tuk with wings assembled with Chinese power tools and cheaply copied components?

Sorry to sound negative but there are things - especially technology you trust your life with - where QUALITY comes first!

You're right regarding Chinese/Thai made airplanes, fly Airbus 380 with RR Trent 900 engines

You ought to read up on China Railways, they are most likely more advanced than the railways in your own country.As things are in Thailand,it is of no surprise,that SRT is in poor shape.The management should take a look at what Malaysia did between KL and Ipoh/Taiping.......up to 160km/h are possible on 1000mm gauge.

No worries. Err 1 incident with that engine and your going to get in a plane with a Hoo dun wot engine ? Good luck.

[Thai at Heart]

You can't run high speed passenger trains on a freight rail... Typically, high speed rail is elevated on concrete slabs rather than 'typical' sleeper and balast rail for freight/slow passenger rail, because you can not afford any possibilty of cars/trucks being in the rail corridor.. i.e. no 'level crossings' for roads...

Cheers,

Daewoo

Your last point has been in my mind since this whole issue was raised. Whilst it may be feasible, to build a raised line this length in 5 years does sound like an enormous logistical undertaking in a very short time. I don't know about the other lines which are planned, but the Nongkhai to Bangkok line is strewn with level crossings and as I mentioned elsewhere people live in very close proximity to the line in some places. When writing they intend to run the line "parallel" if this statement has any place in train construction language.

One could say that if they build the new line 20 km away from the old one, but it runs North to South, it is indeed parallel or does this imply that it will be within say 25 m of the old one?

[maxa]

You're right regarding Chinese/Thai made airplanes, fly Airbus 380 with RR Trent 900 engines

You ought to read up on China Railways, they are most likely more advanced than the railways in your own country.As things are in Thailand,it is of no surprise,that SRT is in poor shape.The management should take a look at what Malaysia did between KL and Ipoh/Taiping.......up to 160km/h are possible on 1000mm gauge.

No worries. Err 1 incident with that engine and your going to get in a plane with a Hoo dun wot engine ? Good luck.

Nothing wrong with RR or Hoo dun wot engines, both are built to high standards. You won't encounter a flying tuk tuk, there is no aerospace industry in Thailand.

Who is going to use this new high speed connection to Isaarn? Poor Somchai prefers the free ride in SRT's 3rd class coaches.

[Bagwan]

[

One could say that if they build the new line 20 km away from the old one, but it runs North to South, it is indeed parallel or does this imply that it will be within say 25 m of the old one?

How about building 20 feet above? That would be parallel.  Just saying  

[dcutman]

I know Laopo has an argument for the chinese for everything

I have a question. And hopefully it has nothing to do with the #%$#ing Chinese.

The article says "high spped" train. It never said how fast this thing will be going or be capable of. Somebody said BKK to NK in 4 hours, not sure where that came from. Is there real info about the speed of this thing?

[dcutman]

They are great at stealing patents and trade secrets as well. They stole all the bullet train info from the Germans and Japanese.

..I'm sure you have top-secret information proving so?

But maybe you've never heard of a few mega companies in the train industry in China, like:

China Railway Group Ltd - 273.000 employees - a Hong Kong listed company with a market value of HK$ 115 Billion ?

or

China Railway Construction Ltd - 210.000 employees - a HK listed company with a market value of HK$ 117 Billion ?

How many km/miles of high speed rail tracks are there in Japan...Germany, France, the US, Spain ? Search and you wll find.

I don't blame the ignorant if it comes to info about China other than the media around the world, feeding the same ignorant readers/watchers with a lot of crap; that mis-information is mainly because of fear and non-understanding of the Chinese mind and extremele hard working population. The media just focus of what's wrong in China (and that's a lot) but the poor journalists, sent or not to China by their bosses only report what the west want to "eat...to swallow"....think of that!

At the same time China is developing with the speed of ultra sound and I blame the leaders of the west that they still think of the west as being superior to Asia.

That..........that is a big mistake!

Tonight I watched an amazing documentary* about healthcare in India (and heart surgery in particular) and I was completely flabbergasted how FAR they are in comparison to the west.

In the west a high qualified Heart-Surgeon does at his maximum a number of 3.000 (!) heart surgeries in his active Surgeon lifetime.

In this particular hospital in India a Surgeon in his 30's has done that number of 3.000already. This particular Chief Surgeon did already more than 25.000 heart surgeries and I don't know his age but I estimate him at around 45 to 50.

The rich in India pay around US$ 2.500 for a heart surgery..in the US that's close to $ 100.000.

In the US, special clinics for heart surgery do around 200 heart surgeries per year; in this clinic in India they do 600 to 700 PER MONTH..

In India they deliver 30.000 doctors per year which will increase to 100.000 doctors per year; Karnataka state in India trains more nurses per year than in the entire US;

* if you're interested, watch this (in English) and scroll to min: 25:33 and further at 31:30; completely unbelievable..but true!!

http://beta.uitzendi...enzeloze-leider

I only posted this (off topic) to show there's more to Asia than the info many are fed with

LaoPo

Yeh I have.

I have the internet just like everybody else. Whatch TV like every one. Not sure where you have been on this topic MR Chinese authority.

There is nothing top secret about how China gets trade secrets. If anybody should know, it is you. That is part of the deal to begain a biz in China. Every company is required to give up intellectual property of anything they plan to build there.

Everything built in China is some version of somebody's prior idea

I guess that's what make them so great. Everybody is so eagar to tap into this market they will give all or a good portion of there intellectual property just to have this chance.

Thailand should stick with there proven friends. They get inbed with China on anything, Next they will be buying up there farm land, and every other natural resorce they have a shortage of. Just like in Africa, South America and even Austrailia. They are leaches on the world.

f$#@ China

Cheers

Cheers

Edited December 1, 2010 by dcutman

[LaoPo]

Yeh I have.

I have the internet just like everybody else. Whatch TV like every one. Not sure where you have been on this topic MR Chinese authority.

There is nothing top secret about how China gets trade secrets. If anybody should know, it is you. That is part of the deal to begain a biz in China. Every company is required to give up intellectual property of anything they plan to build there.

Everything built in China is some version of somebody's prior idea

I guess that's what make them so great. Everybody is so eagar to tap into this market they will give all or a good portion of there intellectual property just to have this chance.

Thailand should stick with there proven friends. They get inbed with China on anything, Next they will be buying up there farm land, and every other natural resorce they have a shortage of. Just like in Africa, South America and even Austrailia. They are leaches on the world.

f$#@ China

Cheers

Cheers

Another ignorant China basher who goes the personal way (attacking me). You have no idea what's going on in China and the time you spend, writing, there's another skyscraper built, another factory built and another company bought in your own country.

Dream on and bash on but maybe it's better to stay on topic and debate the OP but I suppose you have no intention of doing so, overfed as you are with your anti local media news about China.

PS: Oh and tell me where the Chinese got the idea to build the Great Wall ? was it from Australia or Egypt?

LaoPo

Edited December 1, 2010 by LaoPo

[maxa]

Yeh I have.

I have the internet just like everybody else. Whatch TV like every one. Not sure where you have been on this topic MR Chinese authority.

There is nothing top secret about how China gets trade secrets. If anybody should know, it is you. That is part of the deal to begain a biz in China. Every company is required to give up intellectual property of anything they plan to build there.

Everything built in China is some version of somebody's prior idea

I guess that's what make them so great. Everybody is so eagar to tap into this market they will give all or a good portion of there intellectual property just to have this chance.

Thailand should stick with there proven friends. They get inbed with China on anything, Next they will be buying up there farm land, and every other natural resorce they have a shortage of. Just like in Africa, South America and even Austrailia. They are leaches on the world.

f$#@ China

Cheers

Cheers

Another ignorant China basher who goes the personal way (attacking me). You have no idea what's going on in China and the time you spend, writing, there's another skyscraper built, another factory built and another company bought in your own country.

Dream on and bash on but maybe it's better to stay on topic and debate the OP but I suppose you have no intention of doing so, overfed as you are with your anti local media news about China.

PS: Oh and tell me where the Chinese got the idea to build the Great Wall ? was it from Australia or Egypt?

LaoPo

LaoPo,those China bashers are just envious. They can't belittle Japan or Korea anymore and most likely India is next on the list.If Thailand ever starts to develop on the technical side,they will suffer the same fate.

[LaoPo]

Yeh I have.

I have the internet just like everybody else. Whatch TV like every one. Not sure where you have been on this topic MR Chinese authority.

There is nothing top secret about how China gets trade secrets. If anybody should know, it is you. That is part of the deal to begain a biz in China. Every company is required to give up intellectual property of anything they plan to build there.

Everything built in China is some version of somebody's prior idea

I guess that's what make them so great. Everybody is so eagar to tap into this market they will give all or a good portion of there intellectual property just to have this chance.

Thailand should stick with there proven friends. They get inbed with China on anything, Next they will be buying up there farm land, and every other natural resorce they have a shortage of. Just like in Africa, South America and even Austrailia. They are leaches on the world.

f$#@ China

Cheers

Cheers

Another ignorant China basher who goes the personal way (attacking me). You have no idea what's going on in China and the time you spend, writing, there's another skyscraper built, another factory built and another company bought in your own country.

Dream on and bash on but maybe it's better to stay on topic and debate the OP but I suppose you have no intention of doing so, overfed as you are with your anti local media news about China.

PS: Oh and tell me where the Chinese got the idea to build the Great Wall ? was it from Australia or Egypt?

LaoPo

LaoPo,those China bashers are just envious. They can't belittle Japan or Korea anymore and most likely India is next on the list.If Thailand ever starts to develop on the technical side,they will suffer the same fate.

Envious and ignorant, commenting upon a country most of the bashers haven't even been to. Have no clue what's going on, do not read and/or study the facts about what's going on in the -economical- world, in this case China.

The point is that these bashers live in the most fantastic, beautiful, democratic and perfect country in the world: their own; in their own view and opinion...FINE...enjoy it!

They forget that I also live in such a fantastic country and that 1.3 billion Chinese also think they live in the best country of the world and are proud of what their country accomplished in a mere 15-20 years.

These same people are living in a country which was locked for many centuries and now they're finally able to come out and start enjoying a growing free world also; they can travel, buy houses, cars, TV sets, nice clothes etc etc. but, of course, there are still many things to be improved like freedom of speech, press and democracy.

But it needs to develop gradually, not overnight. You can't "build" the same country in 15-20 years and create the same society as the one from the bashers...would they want that ? How silly and absurd.

It's funny we have to write about this on a Forum in a country where the same freedom of Press and Speech is lashed around the mouths of it's citizens and us, Thailand lovers....

We, as members, are also gagged on this forum by what and HOW we write about certain issues in this country for obvious reasons and because of the strict Laws and "tricky" issues which could lead to imprisonment.

An example is, that in the eyes of Westerners it is absurd that publications about WikiLeaks is so sensitive in this country...WHY?

It's sad to see that the bashers only bash and do not accept that there are billions of poor people who also want to inprove their way of living; a way of living those bashers are used to, the moment they were born, screaming for milk from Mama. Spoiled people who're only able to bash but do not give any positive feedback to this topic.

Ignorance, pure ignorance.

I don't mind debating and/or accepting others' views and I enjoy intelligent debate and facts input by members like Daewoo, but I despise debating with people, only bashing and not delivering any debate about the content of the OP's article.

LaoPo

[afarang]

When China decides to do something- it does it so well.Was it the Chengdu- Kunming railway, built about 40 years ago,that was praised as the greatest engineering feat of that age?Who else has built a Maglev, hitting speeds in excess of 300 k.P.H. Who else has built a line such as Beijing - Lhasa through the perma frost. No-one. Who has the savvy ,to invest massively in Africa? Not 1 Western country.The West has shot itself in the foot Look at how many mega cities they are building. Want me to go on?

[Daewoo]

I don't want to be seen as a Chinese supporter... personally, I think they are just too ruthless... ruthless in the way they treat each other, ruthless in the way they treat others, and ruthless in business... it isn't the 'Australian Way' where companies and individuals have their own 'triple bottom line'... but... that ruthlessness is what is GOING to make China THE ecconomic global power in only a few decades...

For Thailand, for sure they will be taken advantage of by the Chinese if they get into bed with them... just like a 90 year old millionaire will be taken advantage of by his 25 year old wife... but at least he got to enjoy screwing her for a while, and then he will die and it his kids who miss out on his fortune... pretty good analogy I reckon ...

But to all the knockers, I was in Shenzen last month... the amount of infrastructure being built is staggering... inexplicably staggering... building construction, road construction, rail construction, infrastructure construction... if you think all of China is like Issan, you are wrong... rural China is like Bangkok...

I guess I went overboard with the elevated track statement... high speed trains (150km/h-200km/h) seem to run on ground level tracks... here in Aus, our high speed trains (max speed 160kmh) are ground level, with level crossings, that make a real mess of cars full of people about twice a year... and remember, they are travelling though the bits of Australia where no one lives... imagine what would happen in Thailand... Europe seems to be moving towards elevated tracks on concrette slabs as they go to very high speed... (you have to remember I am a Telecommunications Engineer, that just happens to do some work in rail, not the other way around , a little bit of knowledge being a dangerous thing )

You simply can not get freight rail up to those kinds of speeds... too much weight, requiring too much locomotive power... a loaded high speed passenger train might weigh 500 tonnes, a freight train up to 10,000 tonnes, the heaviest bulk commodities ones, like the coal trains I am working with, over 35,000 tonnes... just like with cars, the power requirement isn't linear either... so a high speed passenger train requires 2 x 2,000hp power cars, to power a freight train at 60km/h, you need multiply that by maybe 12, 4 x 6,000hp powercars... (before anyone gets on their high horse, I know that locomotion is measured by tractive force, not HP, because most modern locomotives are diesel electric, but my point still explains the issue)... very long story short, no one runs freight at even close to high speed, but that normally isn't the issue with freight that it is will passengers, where you are competing with air and cars/busses...

I am now a bit confused whether Freight or Passenger Rail was the intent of the original article/discussion... You can run freight and high speed rail on the same tracks, at this sort of 160km/h barrier... but not heavy haul freight, (over about 4,000 tonnes) and not very high speed passenger rail (over 160km/h)... mostly this is because of the time it takes to get an entire freight train out of the way for a high speed train... either the passenger train or the freight train ends up standing on the wayside for half the day...

The 3 projects I am working on are 500km each... 40,000 tonnes and 80km/h... the issue isn't so much the length of the track... if you need 10 crews to do 500km, you need 20 crews to do 1,000km... and that applies to pretty much everything... if you need 5 people to do land aquisition, you need 10, 50 excavators, 100 excavators... it takes more time to get government approvals, because you are dealing with twice as many outside parties, who all wait for the other guy to make their decision first... I still think, in my heart of hearts, it is 12 years away at least...

cheers,

Daewoo

[Thai at Heart]

3 hours 30 to Chiangmai?????

Oh and the dreaded HUB word. Edited December 2, 2010 by Thai at Heart

[elliss]

hope the seats are not infested with bugs ,

and thais, :jap: