Fears Grow Of Political Uprising From Court Ruling On Democrat Party In Thailand

[webfact]

Authorities fear Court's decision backlash

BANGKOK, 30 November 2010 (NNT) -- Following the Constitution Court’s ruling against the dissolution of the Democrat Party, many fear this will cause another political uprising in Thailand.

Fearing the backlash of the Court’s decision to drop the charge against the Democrat Party on grounds of technicality, which, many have said, will lead to more violence by anti-government activists; the red-shirt in particular, police and soldiers have been deployed to the Democrat Party Headquarters in Bang Sue district to ensure maximum security for its members.

Police authorities have set up check points in risk areas around Bangkok, inspecting vehicles passing by for weapons and explosives. Meanwhile, soldiers have been patrolling at night at important venues such as the Equestrian Monument and those of political history.

To prevent violence around the Victory Monument, Payathai, Rangnum, and Tevej areas, once the Red Shirt encampments, the Internal Security Operations Command has already ordered 24 hours surveillance.

-- NNT 2010-11-30

[animatic]

Not surprising that some will take it very badly. There was a large push from certain quarters to remove them for partisan reasons, it was not done well, and that should be blamed on those doing a bad job of prosecuting and the fact this case likely had little chance of being successful based on merits. It will do almost nothing to the Red Shirts perceptions fabricated by their leadership for the sole purpose of regaining power, and so another method of regaining power has come to nothing, and of course this will displease many. But just because there is a case filed doesn't automatically mean it was done properly, well and in a fashion to be successful. The playing field hasn't had the hoped for sea change, so really we are just where we were before. Except the side that didn't get their wishes will try and ratchet up fear, as it has in the past.

[webfact]

All parties urged to accept court ruling on Democrat Party dissolution case

BANGKOK, Nov 30 - Thailand's National Security Council (NSC) chief on Tuesday conceded that not all groups of people felt that the Constitution Court ruling to dismiss the Democrat Party dissolution case was acceptable, but urged all parties to accept the court decision and observe the rule of law.

NSC Secretary-General Tawin Pleansri made his remarks following criticism of a so-called double standard regarding the sitting government and its political opponents after the court on Monday dismissed the nearly one year old dissolution case against Thailand's oldest political party over its alleged misuse of Bt29 million ($960,000) in political campaign funding, saying the filing complaint process lodged by the Election Commission (EC) was unlawful.

Mr Tawin said few groups of people rejected the Monday court ruling and that there is no report of possible protest against the matter.

"The case has two sides. No matter the result is, if the court ruling is satisfying [to them], people say it's fair. When they are not satisfied with the ruling, they say it's unfair," said Mr Tawin. "If it is so, the story will never end."

Asked whether he's worried about underground movements, the NSC chief said the country has had problems during the past three years and that he believes both the Red Shirt "United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship (UDD) and the yellow-clad People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD) do not want the situation to be like that again.

Mr Tawin added there is a possibility that a state of emergency may be lifted before the New Year depending on the assessment of the situation, which has been regularly conducted. He re-emphasised that there is no reason to maintain imposition of the security law if the situation is orderly.

The Emergency Decree remains in effect in Bangkok and its three adjacent provinces of Nonthaburi, Samut Prakarn and Pathum Thani.

Meanwhile, Deputy Prime Minister Suthep Thaugsuban on Tuesday reaffirmed that no double standard practice has been applied to the Democrat dissolution case.

Mr Suthep, who is also the Democrat MP for Surat Thani, asserted that the Constitution Court dismissed the party dissolution case because the process of filing the complaint by the EC was unlawful.

"Accusations of double standards is simply a matter of satisfaction and dissatisfaction over the case of a person." said Mr Suthep. "I consider such an accusation on the Thai government as destroying the country's system [of governance]. The Thai government and courts have no double standards."

The deputy premier added he is confident that the court's consideration process is correct and independent.

Following rumours of a possible House dissolution to end the country's political conflict, Ongart Klampaiboon, Minister attached to the Prime Minister's Office and the Democrat MP for Bangkok, on Tuesday said there is no sign leading to the dissolution of Parliament.

Mr Ongart said he believes the government can still do its job as there is one year left in its administrative term.

"The prime minister has always stated that he is ready to dissolve Parliament anytime, but it depends on the circumstances and I can't foresee the situation", said the minister. "There must be sufficient cause and other elements when the House is dissolved." (MCOT online news)

-- TNA 2010-11-30

[rubl]

From the OP:

BANGKOK, 30 November 2010 (NNT)-Following the Constitution Court's ruling against the dissolution of the Democrat Party, many fear this will cause another political uprising in Thailand.

Fearing the backlash of the Court's decision to drop the charge against the Democrat Party on grounds of technicality, which, many have said, will lead to more violence by anti-government activists; the red-shirt in particular, police and soldiers have been deployed to the Democrat Party Headquarters in Bang Sue district to ensure maximum security for its members.

...

Can someone explain to me how 'political uprising' and 'more violence by anti-government activists; the red-shirt in particular' are related ?

In most democratic countries political uprising can only be applauded (although personally I wonder about the 'tea baggers'). In a way it shows political engagement by the people. In Thailand that would/should mean peaceful protests along the roads of BKK with people fed up with current political parties and games, multi-color shirts as it were.

To write "violence by anti-government activists; the red-shirt in particular" shows a prejudice on the side of the Nation. As you can clearly read in posts on other topics red-shirts are 'peaceful protesters, not terrorists'. Mind you having said that I'm not sure what other group(s) might want to get violent over the court decision.

[yellow1red1]

good grief! r they saying more turmoil and instability is in the offing?

who woulda thunk it? DUH

cue the everything is beautiful poser >>>

[phiphidon]

Not surprising that some will take it very badly. There was a large push from certain quarters to remove them for partisan reasons, it was not done well, and that should be blamed on those doing a bad job of prosecuting and the fact this case likely had little chance of being successful based on merits. It will do almost nothing to the Red Shirts perceptions fabricated by their leadership for the sole purpose of regaining power, and so another method of regaining power has come to nothing, and of course this will displease many. But just because there is a case filed doesn't automatically mean it was done properly, well and in a fashion to be successful. The playing field hasn't had the hoped for sea change, so really we are just where we were before. Except the side that didn't get their wishes will try and ratchet up fear, as it has in the past.

I think you're find that it is the The Nation that is trying to ratchet up the fear, and your last sentence just adds to that irrational fear.

[jdinasia]

Not surprising that some will take it very badly. There was a large push from certain quarters to remove them for partisan reasons, it was not done well, and that should be blamed on those doing a bad job of prosecuting and the fact this case likely had little chance of being successful based on merits. It will do almost nothing to the Red Shirts perceptions fabricated by their leadership for the sole purpose of regaining power, and so another method of regaining power has come to nothing, and of course this will displease many. But just because there is a case filed doesn't automatically mean it was done properly, well and in a fashion to be successful. The playing field hasn't had the hoped for sea change, so really we are just where we were before. Except the side that didn't get their wishes will try and ratchet up fear, as it has in the past.

I think you're find that it is the The Nation that is trying to ratchet up the fear, and your last sentence just adds to that irrational fear.

A fear is only irrational if it has no basis in fact. To be afraid of a snake that is safely contained in a glass case is irrational. To fear red-shirt violence is based upon history. Perhaps we should re-visit the recent arrests of reds with C4, or the explosion in the building in Nonthaburi (we don't have to go as far back as May to find the violence ......)

[hammered]

Persoanlly I doubt there is enough support for an "uprising" even on the scale of April. To pull that off needs a lot more than the core reds and relies on a lot of logistical and financial support from PTP MPs, which is almost certainly lacking in many cases.

Political games.

There maybe some reaction from red extremes but likely it will be small scale. Could be violent or otherwise. When an election is only a year away it also hard to convince people to play and it also very hard to get MPs to risk it all in street action rather than await an election.

[phiphidon]

Not surprising that some will take it very badly. There was a large push from certain quarters to remove them for partisan reasons, it was not done well, and that should be blamed on those doing a bad job of prosecuting and the fact this case likely had little chance of being successful based on merits. It will do almost nothing to the Red Shirts perceptions fabricated by their leadership for the sole purpose of regaining power, and so another method of regaining power has come to nothing, and of course this will displease many. But just because there is a case filed doesn't automatically mean it was done properly, well and in a fashion to be successful. The playing field hasn't had the hoped for sea change, so really we are just where we were before. Except the side that didn't get their wishes will try and ratchet up fear, as it has in the past.

I think you're find that it is the The Nation that is trying to ratchet up the fear, and your last sentence just adds to that irrational fear.

A fear is only irrational if it has no basis in fact. To be afraid of a snake that is safely contained in a glass case is irrational. To fear red-shirt violence is based upon history. Perhaps we should re-visit the recent arrests of reds with C4, or the explosion in the building in Nonthaburi (we don't have to go as far back as May to find the violence ......)

You make no mention of several peaceful rallies in the recent past. Reconciliation is going to be difficult enough without creating "reds under the beds" myths. As far as the C4 is concerned different newspapers and other media sources, had differing reports on exactly what was found in the flat ranging from 2 x 2Kgs of C4, shotguns, sophisticated arming devices and other weapons to a pistol, some rounds of ammunition, gunpowder and mobile phones. There was also talk of a link to the 11 men detained in Chiang Mai, who may have been training in Cambodia, but now are linked with training in a boutique hotel in Chiang Mai (MCOT), though what that link is nobody has defined. Even a link to the explosion in Nonthaburi, again not defined. And now the Nation says "many think................"

So excuse me if I have a healthy questioning attitude to said events. As I say reconciliation is going to be hard enough.

[jdinasia]

I agree that reconciliation will be difficult.

That does not mean that we must look the other way from the violent history of the reds. There are real concerns that people have that the reds may turn violent yet again. Have there been some peaceful red rallies? Absolutely. Are they more peaceful these days? Yes! Could that be attributed to their leaders being in jail? Yes! Could that be attributed to Jatuporn's parliamentary immunity being gone? Yes! Could that be due to a lack of funding? Yes!

Today in criminal court the judges got to witness the video of Red Songkran, and hear testimony from the PM. There is a significant number of extremely violent people in the red shirt movement and to deny that is not going to lead to any reconciliation either!

[rubl]

You make no mention of several peaceful rallies in the recent past. Reconciliation is going to be difficult enough without creating "reds under the beds" myths. As far as the C4 is concerned different newspapers and other media sources, had differing reports on exactly what was found in the flat ranging from 2 x 2Kgs of C4, shotguns, sophisticated arming devices and other weapons to a pistol, some rounds of ammunition, gunpowder and mobile phones. There was also talk of a link to the 11 men detained in Chiang Mai, who may have been training in Cambodia, but now are linked with training in a boutique hotel in Chiang Mai (MCOT), though what that link is nobody has defined. Even a link to the explosion in Nonthaburi, again not defined. And now the Nation says "many think................"

So excuse me if I have a healthy questioning attitude to said events. As I say reconciliation is going to be hard enough.

A few peaceful rallies should be normal. Unfortunately there have been less peaceful, those are not forgotten that easily. It's against rules and laws here otherwise I would bet you still remember where you were and what you were doing on 9/11, 2001.

The link political uprising - increased violence - activists (red-shirts) may be a bit overdone, but some might call it 'having earned a reputation the hard way'

Keep smiling, stay cool and hope for the best.

[Roadman]

I don't think it will matter a hyote if Red, Yellow ot any other idioctic faction attempts their dirt bag tricks of the last few years. The Government and Army combined have shown that although they were slow starters to get the hang of dealing with terrorists and general scumbags, they now have the will and sensibility to deal with them quickly.

[chuang]

All parties urged to accept court ruling on Democrat Party dissolution case

".

Meanwhile, Deputy Prime Minister Suthep Thaugsuban on Tuesday reaffirmed that no double standard practice has been applied to the Democrat dissolution case.

deputy premier added he is confident that the court's consideration process is correct and independent.

-- TNA 2010-11-30

What nonsense is he spouting, "no double standard"...even fools know what is going on..

[rubl]

All parties urged to accept court ruling on Democrat Party dissolution case

".

Meanwhile, Deputy Prime Minister Suthep Thaugsuban on Tuesday reaffirmed that no double standard practice has been applied to the Democrat dissolution case.

deputy premier added he is confident that the court's consideration process is correct and independent.

-- TNA 2010-11-30

What nonsense is he spouting, "no double standard"...even fools know what is going on..

Even fools know when to stop complaining about things they cannot prove and only imagine. Some posters here only seem bend on stirring up hatred against anything the government does, or against decisions they do not like.

[chainarong]

Sure is a pity the dumb dumbs don't know the way to a ballot box, that would settle the arguement once and for all , then maybe not , forgot it's Thai Democracy at work..

[gemini81]

From the OP:

BANGKOK, 30 November 2010 (NNT)-Following the Constitution Court's ruling against the dissolution of the Democrat Party, many fear this will cause another political uprising in Thailand.

Fearing the backlash of the Court's decision to drop the charge against the Democrat Party on grounds of technicality, which, many have said, will lead to more violence by anti-government activists; the red-shirt in particular, police and soldiers have been deployed to the Democrat Party Headquarters in Bang Sue district to ensure maximum security for its members.

...

Can someone explain to me how 'political uprising' and 'more violence by anti-government activists; the red-shirt in particular' are related ?

In most democratic countries political uprising can only be applauded (although personally I wonder about the 'tea baggers'). In a way it shows political engagement by the people. In Thailand that would/should mean peaceful protests along the roads of BKK with people fed up with current political parties and games, multi-color shirts as it were.

To write "violence by anti-government activists; the red-shirt in particular" shows a prejudice on the side of the Nation. As you can clearly read in posts on other topics red-shirts are 'peaceful protesters, not terrorists'. Mind you having said that I'm not sure what other group(s) might want to get violent over the court decision.

Well just look at their bloody history for crying out loud! They're certainly afraid this group will take up soem more senseless violence, as thats really the only language they seem to speak. There's really no way to call it bias, but just looking at the future based on past actions.

If the Nation did support them, what would that say about the nation?

Other int'l sources just don't have the insight into the culture and history here as the Nation might. Just look at Dan Rivers and some of the other reporters who reported on one side of the camp.

Edited November 30, 2010 by gemini81

[Pi Sek]

What nonsense is he spouting, "no double standard"...even fools know what is going on..

Sigh... another might suggest "only fools know what is going on". Because in truth, noone does.

[webfact]

PM orders tightened security for Constitution Court judges

BANGKOK, Nov 30 - Thai Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva on Tuesday instructed security concerned agencies to step up security measures for the country's Constitution Court judges following their ruling to dismiss the high-profile Democrat Party dissolution case, while a group allied to the 'Red Shirt' movement staged a symbolic protest outside the court compound amid tight security.

The so-called "People who love justice and democracy", ally to the United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship (UDD) led by Palot Chalermsaen, turned up outside the Constitution Court offices in the Government Complex in the Chaeng Wattana area Tuesday morning. They wore black clothing and performed a religious rite as if it was a funeral as a symbolic expression in response to Monday's court decision.

The protesters called on the judges to clarify their verdict to the public and then walked to the Election Commission (EC) headquarters in the next building, urging the poll agency to bring the Democrat dissolution case back for a new round of prosecution.

Security measures have been tightened at the Constitution Court and the Election Commission offices with a number of police officers deployed to maintain order, but the protest ended without violence.

Six Constitution Court judges voted 4:2 Monday afternoon to dismiss the case against the country's oldest political party over its alleged misuse of Bt29 million ($960,000) in political campaign funding, saying the filing complaint process lodged by EC was unlawful, sparking criticism among some groups including the opposition Puea Thai Party over what they claim is a double standard.

Acting government spokesman Panitan Wattanayagorn said after Tuesday's Cabinet meeting that Prime Minister Abhisit has instructed Deputy Prime Minister Suthep Thaugsuban who oversees national security to tighten security measures for the Constitution Court judges.

The premier also asked Minister Attached to the Prime Minister's Office Ongart Klampaiboon to distribute and publicise the details of court ruling to the public in order to avoid any misunderstanding on the case, said Dr Panitan.

As this week is considered important with many royal ceremonies and government events to be held, the spokesman added, the prime minister has instructed Defence Minister Gen Prawit Wongsuwan, in his capacity as director of the Centre for the Resolution of the Emergency Situation (CRES), to maintain order during this period.

The premier told ministries and agencies holding celebrations marking His Majesty the King's birthday on Dec 5 should coordinate with CRES so that the events run smoothly. (MCOT online news)

-- TNA 2010-11-30

[jayboy]

I agree that reconciliation will be difficult.

That does not mean that we must look the other way from the violent history of the reds. There are real concerns that people have that the reds may turn violent yet again. Have there been some peaceful red rallies? Absolutely. Are they more peaceful these days? Yes! Could that be attributed to their leaders being in jail? Yes! Could that be attributed to Jatuporn's parliamentary immunity being gone? Yes! Could that be due to a lack of funding? Yes!

Today in criminal court the judges got to witness the video of Red Songkran, and hear testimony from the PM. There is a significant number of extremely violent people in the red shirt movement and to deny that is not going to lead to any reconciliation either!

I would have thought the elite's attempts to frustrate the Thai people (no need to enumerate these) would increase rather than lessen the chances of violence.There is going to be a seismic shift so Thailand realigns more to a system that favours the people rather than an entrenched elite.There's still plenty of time for a peaceful transition but the elite seems to have no sense of enlightened self interest.But ultimately unless there is some meaningful compromise, there will certainly be violence and on a terrible scale.I and most others dread this but students of history will know exactly what I mean.

[jdinasia]

I agree that reconciliation will be difficult.

That does not mean that we must look the other way from the violent history of the reds. There are real concerns that people have that the reds may turn violent yet again. Have there been some peaceful red rallies? Absolutely. Are they more peaceful these days? Yes! Could that be attributed to their leaders being in jail? Yes! Could that be attributed to Jatuporn's parliamentary immunity being gone? Yes! Could that be due to a lack of funding? Yes!

Today in criminal court the judges got to witness the video of Red Songkran, and hear testimony from the PM. There is a significant number of extremely violent people in the red shirt movement and to deny that is not going to lead to any reconciliation either!

I would have thought the elite's attempts to frustrate the Thai people (no need to enumerate these) would increase rather than lessen the chances of violence.There is going to be a seismic shift so Thailand realigns more to a system that favours the people rather than an entrenched elite.There's still plenty of time for a peaceful transition but the elite seems to have no sense of enlightened self interest.But ultimately unless there is some meaningful compromise, there will certainly be violence and on a terrible scale.I and most others dread this but students of history will know exactly what I mean.

The only person that seems to be attempting to stave this off is Abhisit. Doing more for people in general. Holding his own people to a higher standard. Trying to make a difficult situation better. Then there are the reds ... rallying behind Thaksin (one of the "elite") and engaging on violence on a scale that is relatively new to Thailand.

Students of Thai history would know why the reds goaded the government into using the military against the reds. In the past no government has survived the military opening fire on the civilians in Thailand. This time it appears that Thai people for the most part did not see the Reds as 'civilian' and thus accepted it as something painful that needed to happen. The fact that the reds were armed and used those weapons certainly showed their "not terrorists" campaign to be a lie.

[mca]

Mr Suthep, who is also the Democrat MP for Surat Thani, asserted that the Constitution Court dismissed the party dissolution case because the process of filing the complaint by the EC was unlawful.

"Accusations of double standards is simply a matter of satisfaction and dissatisfaction over the case of a person." said Mr Suthep. "I consider such an accusation on the Thai government as destroying the country's system [of governance]. The Thai government and courts have no double standards."

The deputy premier added he is confident that the court's consideration process is correct and independent.

What would he know? Any sign of someone having a sniff in his affairs and he resigns to avoid an investigation. But still manages to hang on to the DPM seat. Odious man.

[truethailand]

All parties urged to accept court ruling on Democrat Party dissolution case

".

Meanwhile, Deputy Prime Minister Suthep Thaugsuban on Tuesday reaffirmed that no double standard practice has been applied to the Democrat dissolution case.

deputy premier added he is confident that the court's consideration process is correct and independent.

-- TNA 2010-11-30

What nonsense is he spouting, "no double standard"...even fools know what is going on..

Even fools know when to stop complaining about things they cannot prove and only imagine. Some posters here only seem bend on stirring up hatred against anything the government does, or against decisions they do not like.

If you check the order of the posts in many previous threads its you and your lot who start the rhetoric and its me and my lot who respond. I have opinions and social beliefs do you have agendas and wage packets?

[truethailand]

From the OP:

BANGKOK, 30 November 2010 (NNT)-Following the Constitution Court's ruling against the dissolution of the Democrat Party, many fear this will cause another political uprising in Thailand.

Fearing the backlash of the Court's decision to drop the charge against the Democrat Party on grounds of technicality, which, many have said, will lead to more violence by anti-government activists; the red-shirt in particular, police and soldiers have been deployed to the Democrat Party Headquarters in Bang Sue district to ensure maximum security for its members.

...

Can someone explain to me how 'political uprising' and 'more violence by anti-government activists; the red-shirt in particular' are related ?

In most democratic countries political uprising can only be applauded (although personally I wonder about the 'tea baggers'). In a way it shows political engagement by the people. In Thailand that would/should mean peaceful protests along the roads of BKK with people fed up with current political parties and games, multi-color shirts as it were.

To write "violence by anti-government activists; the red-shirt in particular" shows a prejudice on the side of the Nation. As you can clearly read in posts on other topics red-shirts are 'peaceful protesters, not terrorists'. Mind you having said that I'm not sure what other group(s) might want to get violent over the court decision.

Well just look at their bloody history for crying out loud! They're certainly afraid this group will take up soem more senseless violence, as thats really the only language they seem to speak. There's really no way to call it bias, but just looking at the future based on past actions.

If the Nation did support them, what would that say about the nation?

Other int'l sources just don't have the insight into the culture and history here as the Nation might. Just look at Dan Rivers and some of the other reporters who reported on one side of the camp.

If you consider that the state controlled media reporting in Thailand was a best one sided people like Mr Rivers should be applauded for showing the other side, especially when he stopped reporting to turn his camera onto two lines of army soldiers, One kneeling, firing continously at no higher than head height. Thai people in the main were only exposed to government contrived reporting. It was obvious that many international journos would show the story from the red side because all Thailands reporters (term used loosely) were on government orders. Just go to youtube and for every video you can show me in support of your argument I can show you 3 against your argument. (and any that are blocked are because they show things this government cant deny)

[truethailand]

What sort of person would describe the death of 91 and the disappearnce of 100's more as 'This time it appears that Thai people for the most part did not see the Reds as 'civilian' and thus accepted it as something painful that needed to happen' . Something painful that had to happen, a nurse in a temple and how many more were not armed. Violence is never acceptable but for comments like that an exception has to be made.

I have had numerous discussions with middle class thais about equality and the worse response is silence but many reluctantly agree that Thailand needs to change. Could a person believeing it was necessary for 91 people to die persuade people in an Isaan village it was necessary. You can only be trying to wind people up with that statement

[jayboy]

What sort of person would describe the death of 91 and the disappearnce of 100's more as 'This time it appears that Thai people for the most part did not see the Reds as 'civilian' and thus accepted it as something painful that needed to happen' .

I think probably someone who has a very clear political view but lacks the ability or willingness to process information that might lead to self questioning.It's actually a very common view among the Thai urban middle class.To an extent I sympathise with them as they are are no doubt alarmed and even frightened by the social and political re-alignment in prospect.What they might get some comfort from is that changes often take a long time to work through and the new political order will no doubt have plenty of representatives from the educated middle class.So I think some understanding is due.Although attitudes expressed may appear cruel and unfeeling it's all understandable.In due course they might even unhinge themselves from the greedy undemocratic amart with its distasteful feudalists, generals, and lazy business monopolists.

Why a few foreigners think like this is more difficult to understand.

[philw]

I agree that reconciliation will be difficult.

That does not mean that we must look the other way from the violent history of the reds. There are real concerns that people have that the reds may turn violent yet again. Have there been some peaceful red rallies? Absolutely. Are they more peaceful these days? Yes! Could that be attributed to their leaders being in jail? Yes! Could that be attributed to Jatuporn's parliamentary immunity being gone? Yes! Could that be due to a lack of funding? Yes!

Today in criminal court the judges got to witness the video of Red Songkran, and hear testimony from the PM. There is a significant number of extremely violent people in the red shirt movement and to deny that is not going to lead to any reconciliation either!

I would have thought the elite's attempts to frustrate the Thai people (no need to enumerate these) would increase rather than lessen the chances of violence.There is going to be a seismic shift so Thailand realigns more to a system that favours the people rather than an entrenched elite.There's still plenty of time for a peaceful transition but the elite seems to have no sense of enlightened self interest.But ultimately unless there is some meaningful compromise, there will certainly be violence and on a terrible scale.I and most others dread this but students of history will know exactly what I mean.

The only person that seems to be attempting to stave this off is Abhisit. Doing more for people in general. Holding his own people to a higher standard. Trying to make a difficult situation better. Then there are the reds ... rallying behind Thaksin (one of the "elite") and engaging on violence on a scale that is relatively new to Thailand.

Students of Thai history would know why the reds goaded the government into using the military against the reds. In the past no government has survived the military opening fire on the civilians in Thailand. This time it appears that Thai people for the most part did not see the Reds as 'civilian' and thus accepted it as something painful that needed to happen. The fact that the reds were armed and used those weapons certainly showed their "not terrorists" campaign to be a lie.

I really do agree with the first 2 sentences of your final para.

There is a lot of content and thought there.

I think the military did not need to kill, you obviously do and think it was justified.

We disagree on that, no problem.

The big question is how to go forwards and how to stop it happening again.

We are powerless farang and have no impact.

I am not optimistic for the future and think things will get a lot worse before the needed changes occur. ( whatever they may be )

IMO the Gov't could have handled things differently, it was not necessary to rise to red provocations and by their doing so we are now heading for more conflict.

No Thai person i know is happy............( of whatever colour. )

I think the Thailand we all know and love is heading for change and troubles.

[truethailand]

What sort of person would describe the death of 91 and the disappearnce of 100's more as 'This time it appears that Thai people for the most part did not see the Reds as 'civilian' and thus accepted it as something painful that needed to happen' .

I think probably someone who has a very clear political view but lacks the ability or willingness to process information that might lead to self questioning.It's actually a very common view among the Thai urban middle class.To an extent I sympathise with them as they are are no doubt alarmed and even frightened by the social and political re-alignment in prospect.What they might get some comfort from is that changes often take a long time to work through and the new political order will no doubt have plenty of representatives from the educated middle class.So I think some understanding is due.Although attitudes expressed may appear cruel and unfeeling it's all understandable.In due course they might even unhinge themselves from the greedy undemocratic amart with its distasteful feudalists, generals, and lazy business monopolists.

Why a few foreigners think like this is more difficult to understand.

I think thats want I wanted to say but anger did not permit me to be so understanding

[animatic]

What sort of person would describe the death of 91 and the disappearnce of 100's more as 'This time it appears that Thai people for the most part did not see the Reds as 'civilian' and thus accepted it as something painful that needed to happen' .

I think probably someone who has a very clear political view but lacks the ability or willingness to process information that might lead to self questioning.It's actually a very common view among the Thai urban middle class.To an extent I sympathise with them as they are are no doubt alarmed and even frightened by the social and political re-alignment in prospect.What they might get some comfort from is that changes often take a long time to work through and the new political order will no doubt have plenty of representatives from the educated middle class.So I think some understanding is due.Although attitudes expressed may appear cruel and unfeeling it's all understandable.In due course they might even unhinge themselves from the greedy undemocratic amart with its distasteful feudalists, generals, and lazy business monopolists.

Why a few foreigners think like this is more difficult to understand.

I think thats want I wanted to say but anger did not permit me to be so understanding

And that likely hits the whole national problem right on the head.

"anger did not permit me to be so understanding"

[jdinasia]

Pretty simple .. though jayboy etc don't seem to get it. MANY people saw this as what it was: An armed insurrection. Insurrectionists are NOT civilians. Of the 91 we STILL don't know who killed them. We do know that the reds were responsible for many and that the government forces were responsible for many, but we don't know who killed most of them. (WAIT ---- I can hear the cries of "It was the government!" now, with no proof.

When people are wandering around with m79 grenade launchers, assault rifles, bombs and grenades of many varieties etc .. they just don't qualify as civilians. If you are letting them mingle with your group then you don't qualify either. The silence (from some of the posters) when these people are arrested and confess is almost deafening, but it goes against their world view of the poor red masses yearning to be free, and instead shows them as cannon fodder used by Thaksin to try and bring down the government by any means.

edit --- as for foreigners using the word "amart" ... LOL

Edited November 30, 2010 by jdinasia

[jdinasia]

I would have thought the elite's attempts to frustrate the Thai people (no need to enumerate these) would increase rather than lessen the chances of violence.There is going to be a seismic shift so Thailand realigns more to a system that favours the people rather than an entrenched elite.There's still plenty of time for a peaceful transition but the elite seems to have no sense of enlightened self interest.But ultimately unless there is some meaningful compromise, there will certainly be violence and on a terrible scale.I and most others dread this but students of history will know exactly what I mean.

The only person that seems to be attempting to stave this off is Abhisit. Doing more for people in general. Holding his own people to a higher standard. Trying to make a difficult situation better. Then there are the reds ... rallying behind Thaksin (one of the "elite") and engaging on violence on a scale that is relatively new to Thailand.

Students of Thai history would know why the reds goaded the government into using the military against the reds. In the past no government has survived the military opening fire on the civilians in Thailand. This time it appears that Thai people for the most part did not see the Reds as 'civilian' and thus accepted it as something painful that needed to happen. The fact that the reds were armed and used those weapons certainly showed their "not terrorists" campaign to be a lie.

I really do agree with the first 2 sentences of your final para.

There is a lot of content and thought there.

I think the military did not need to kill, you obviously do and think it was justified.

We disagree on that, no problem.

The big question is how to go forwards and how to stop it happening again.

We are powerless farang and have no impact.

I am not optimistic for the future and think things will get a lot worse before the needed changes occur. ( whatever they may be )

IMO the Gov't could have handled things differently, it was not necessary to rise to red provocations and by their doing so we are now heading for more conflict.

No Thai person i know is happy............( of whatever colour. )

I think the Thailand we all know and love is heading for change and troubles.

Philw --

Thanks. I know we don't often see eye to eye. I understand people disagreeing and it is nice to see it done without feeling the need to attack the poster.

IMO the government tried and tried and tried to do things differently. The cruel and heartless side of me wishes that they had infiltrated the reds more thoroughly and taken out every one of the leaders that could have been charged with treason. That side of me is very small though. I wish they had used riot troops to arrest Arisaman on the spot when he called for burning BKK to the ground. That they had taken Weng and Jatuporn off the stage when they called for violence and burning. (Even Veera got in on the act after the failed televised negotiations, but I had the feeling that he was forced into it. Even so, they should be locked up and the key thrown away for inciting riots and for the terrorism that happened at the end.

Is there a way forward? I am hopeful that there is. It may be a bit of blind faith that good will out ... but ....

Sadly nothing will actually go forward as long as Thaksin is spending cash to push his agenda through.