My Answer To Sin Sod.

[kropotkin]

In the majority of cases that i have heard of involving Farangs the sin sod is such a small amount of money that it would not even cover a simple wedding reception in most western countries.

Quite frankly for a couple of hundred thousand baht the majority of westerners are not being principled but just showing how kee niow they really are.

Do you mean to suggest that you are NOT here because thailand is cheap?

I am here because thailand is cheap.

99% of europeans are here because thailand is cheap.

That is why we do not want to pay europeanish prices for anything.

[kropotkin]

^^It's not a case of going native or not. Comes across as rather condescending that just because there's something you don't agree with then the other people need " educating" as it were.

From my experience - but that is only me, based on talks with educated thai - sinsod is on the way back.

Because thailand moves forward.

But not everybody moves at the same speed.

That is not an exclusively thai thing.

I can remember how in the sixties europe moved forward, while many old&powefull dragged behind.

Nothing new under the sun.

Unsettling yes, but try to cope with modern times!

[robblok]

In the majority of cases that i have heard of involving Farangs the sin sod is such a small amount of money that it would not even cover a simple wedding reception in most western countries.

Quite frankly for a couple of hundred thousand baht the majority of westerners are not being principled but just showing how kee niow they really are.

I think the amount paid for sin sod paid is inverse equal to the intelligence level of the farang after taking in consideration the age difference of course.

[CallumW]

I don't buy the 'outdated tradition' argument, you may as well say we should stop giving gifts to each other at Christmas and stop eating chocolate eggs at Easter.

[robblok]

I don't buy the 'outdated tradition' argument, you may as well say we should stop giving gifts to each other at Christmas and stop eating chocolate eggs at Easter.

Some traditions stay .. some go.. In my country people used to wear wooden shoes it was a tradition. Now it is not. Things change over time but it wont happen all at once.

[kropotkin]

I don't buy the 'outdated tradition' argument, you may as well say we should stop giving gifts to each other at Christmas and stop eating chocolate eggs at Easter.

I think you give excellent examples.

Of course, we can keep giving Xmas gifts - hehe but atheists would prefer feast of light gifts.

Of course we can eat chocolate eggs at Easter - i am belgian, i appreciate real chocolate any time.

But, to believe that Rudolf the red nosed reindeir brings the Xmas gifts?

That the bells from Rome / the easter bunny bring the chocolate eggs?

I never said that traditions should disappear.

But traditions should evolve.

In europe it is a tradition to heat houses.

Would you want to achieve that through keeping cows and pigs on the ground floor (like before), or electric heating?

A symbolic sinsod, as a sign of gratitude towards the parents of BOTH partners? Sure, no problem, nice tradition.

[CallumW]

I don't buy the 'outdated tradition' argument, you may as well say we should stop giving gifts to each other at Christmas and stop eating chocolate eggs at Easter.

Some traditions stay .. some go.. In my country people used to wear wooden shoes it was a tradition. Now it is not. Things change over time but it wont happen all at once.

The wooden shoes analogy is not valid, it was not a tradition it was a trait which was superseded when a more viable and cost effective option became available.

I agree though, things do change, my example of Christmas is a good one, those of use more than a couple of decades old remember Christmas far different to the way it is now.

Will the paying of Sin Sod go the same way? My guess is that over time it will become some small token payment that just takes up a time slot in the ceremony, the handing over and waving it about bit. I think that's a long way off though!

[inthepink]

YES sin sot IS a thai tradition.

BUT it is an outdated, backward tradition.

CHOOSE: educate uneducated people, or let uneducated people dis-educate you.

what more can be said about the subject?

I'm sure practically the entire nation of Thailand will be thrilled to hear that they're uneducated.

Not my problem.

I repeat: sinsod is an outdated backward tradition.

If you want to go native, no problem.

I will defenitely not.

I believe in multi culturalism, not in surrendering.

In other cultures I accept some things and reject other things.

I am very critical of my own european culture - therefore i have the right to be critical of other cultures too.

I think your problem is that you married into a low class family by the sounds of it. Sin Sod isn't backward or outdated to many middle class and upper class Thai families and as Samran and others have pointed out, if you don't marry a slapper from Buriram then you will in all likelihood get all the money back and possibly more. Ergo, any comparisons to buying a wife are ridiculous and irrelevant.

[Latindancer]

I'd like to quote an answer by "Bermondburi" from a previous Sinsot thread, which I thought was the best answer :

"I know of many marriages ( thai / thai ) where the bride has been married before and the groom has payed sinsot. The most recent example being my new BIL. There are no rules set in stone and it is up to the individuals involved to do things in a way that is acceptable to all parties. To the OP I would say that if you are in Oz with no job and no money then their asking for it might be a bit inconsiderate. As far as sinsot goes then if both parties are happy then nothing else matters but if one party isn't happy about it all then that could leave a taste of bitterness at the start of a marriage which probably isn't a good thing."

This is in fact the point I'm trying to push in my own Sinsot negotiations.......I'm just not happy with it. And why should I be unhappy on my wedding day ? My prospective inlaws have not compromised at all yet....at least not that I can see.

[kropotkin]

You believe i married into a low class family.

I did not.

And if i did, what is your point?

That sinsod is an upper class thing?

That only the poor are greedy?

Rich upper class does not equal educated.

And my comment about buying a wife was about buying a much younger wife, and i clearly stated that this is a different thing, a bussiness transaction, nothing to do with traditional sinsod.

[Travel2003]

I understand and respect OP's decision not to pay any Sin Sod.

That is purely up to him.

However, I think he should maybe do a bit more reasearch, and he will see that this is not about "selling" the daughter.

It is a cultural thing.

I do not think this is a Bhuddist issue either. I might be wrong here.

Sin Sod is not unique to Thailand.

Several other countries practice this.

To talk about what is logical or not to people from another country/culture, can easily bee looked at arrogant/ignorant.

Remeber also, if one decides to marry someone from a 3rd world country (or almost 3rd world), one must expect to "marry the family" as well.

[transam]

Thai tradition, hah. It's Thai tradition to take care of their elderly parents, my wife's hi-so sisters who got their degrees financed by mum and dad give absolutely sod all to widowed mum.

[Wallaby]

Thai tradition, hah. It's Thai tradition to take care of their elderly parents, my wife's hi-so sisters who got their degrees financed by mum and dad give absolutely sod all to widowed mum.

Yep, if you look far and wide there will always be exceptions. What a pair of complete bitches not to look after their own mother.

[transam]

Thai tradition, hah. It's Thai tradition to take care of their elderly parents, my wife's hi-so sisters who got their degrees financed by mum and dad give absolutely sod all to widowed mum.

Yep, if you look far and wide there will always be exceptions. What a pair of complete bitches not to look after their own mother.

And when l fume at the mrs about it, response, it's all OK, no problem.

BAHHHH. .

[Heng]

IMO 95% of guys are typing about the evils of sin sod in the bent over position in front of their computer and monitor.

[alina]

There is a formula to it, not a lot of foriegners know it.

Basically;

Based on the parents income and daughters schooling.

They also assume the daughter is a virgin.

You pay a sinsod for a daughter once only in her lifetime.

If she has been to Uni then it will cost as the parenst will want teir money/investment back.

If she is from issan then they will want it for sure.

[kropotkin]

There is a formula to it, not a lot of foriegners know it.

Basically;

Based on the parents income and daughters schooling.

They also assume the daughter is a virgin.

You pay a sinsod for a daughter once only in her lifetime.

If she has been to Uni then it will cost as the parenst will want teir money/investment back.

If she is from issan then they will want it for sure.

If this is correct, then there is no sinsod for a divorced woman or single mother?

And giving an education to a child is an investment,just like buying a machine?

I think that the sinsod question is a clash between the modern world and the past.

Eventually everybody will move into the modern world, and stop living in the past.

But right now thailand is in a transition..... and transitions are always difficult.

[kropotkin]

To talk about what is logical or not to people from another country/culture, can easily bee looked at arrogant/ignorant.

Remeber also, if one decides to marry someone from a 3rd world country (or almost 3rd world), one must expect to "marry the family" as well.

True.

When a european marries a thai, he marries a family.

But also:

When a thai marries a european, she marries an individualist.

A good compromise could be: a symbolic sinsod, given to both the thai and the european parents.

[F1fanatic]

Thai tradition, hah. It's Thai tradition to take care of their elderly parents, my wife's hi-so sisters who got their degrees financed by mum and dad give absolutely sod all to widowed mum.

Why on earth would they when there is a farang around to take on the responsibility?

[kropotkin]

Thai tradition, hah. It's Thai tradition to take care of their elderly parents, my wife's hi-so sisters who got their degrees financed by mum and dad give absolutely sod all to widowed mum.

Why on earth would they when there is a farang around to take on the responsibility?

A new tradition?

Could be, there are actually lots of new traditions: loud stereo music, junk food, silly TV soaps,......

[transam]

Thai tradition, hah. It's Thai tradition to take care of their elderly parents, my wife's hi-so sisters who got their degrees financed by mum and dad give absolutely sod all to widowed mum.

Why on earth would they when there is a farang around to take on the responsibility?

You could be right. 7 kids, 3 help mum. The excuse is that the others are paying for their kids uni, <deleted>, their mum made sacrifices for her old age income from her hi-so kids. The low-so kids help their mum. BUT, my point is Thai tradition, sin sod, take care of mum, naaaaah, only when it suits.

[inthepink]

You believe i married into a low class family.

I did not.

And if i did, what is your point?

That sinsod is an upper class thing?

That only the poor are greedy?

Rich upper class does not equal educated.

And my comment about buying a wife was about buying a much younger wife, and i clearly stated that this is a different thing, a bussiness transaction, nothing to do with traditional sinsod.

I think you are misunderstanding what I mean by class. If your wife's father demanded 5000 euros from you, then in my eyes he has no class whatsoever, notwithstanding whether he has money or social status (although I have to admit to doubting he has much of either of those, if he did what you say he did).

You seem to have a bee in your bonnet about rich uppper class people. Most of them are much better educated than poor people in Thailand, that's a simple fact of life. I am not saying that sin sot is an upper class thing, simply that upper class families do not try to keep it as a rule. If your FIL wanted to do that then no matter what you want to believe he certainly doesn't come from the upper echelons of Thai society. For a start, he wouldn't need the money if he did.

All I know is that my partner's father would never in a million years have demanded a single satang from me and if he had then I would think a lot less of her family than I do.

[noise]

a person can only do what they think is right. being forced to pay something you morally object to will not make a good basis of any relationship so stick to your guns & hope for a positive outcome

and it might not hurt to throw in that in many western cultures it is the father of the bride who pays for their daughters wedding

I quit reading here, so this may be a question that is covered in subsequent posts.

Why should we expect the Thais to listen to a condescending lecture on western cultural marriage practices and then immediately discard generations of Thai cultural practices?

And I would like to ask if people really find it morally reprehensible (it is a sin?) to pay sinsod or just something with which they are not familiar? I see no morality involved in this issue.

In Thailand, the groom pays for the wedding. Would the person that refuses to pay sinsod also demand that the bride's family pay for the wedding "because that's the way we do it" ?

Edited January 21, 2011 by noise

[thaihome]

I would just stop after telling them that it is not acceptable in your culture, and forget the part where you lecture them on theirs if you want any hope of it being accepted.

There really wasn’t much to be said after this post.

:jap:

TH

[dmax]

my answer is very simple, if you love and respect your thai wife then you must also show your respect to her family and pay up. 100,000 is the average for me anyway, im by no means loaded !! it discusts me and angers me to hear these wingeing farang men grovelling about how much to pay . what would you give a foreign wife ? gold, clothes, holidays, why should thai woman be treated any differently ? treat them with respect and love and that is what you will get back !! well most of us anyway , if your half wise, if you want to be a fool then be a fool.

[473geo]

Those that come up with the excuses either have no negotiating skills, or cannot easily afford the sums often quoted on this forum.

In my opinion losing the person you love over a 'principle' is pure bullshit.

[spongeman]

The OP in trying to link a generalisation that country people are uneducated AND an age old Thai marriage tradtion shows possibly a lack of edumacation on his part ?

Its a lack of something anyway.

[transam]

my answer is very simple, if you love and respect your thai wife then you must also show your respect to her family and pay up. 100,000 is the average for me anyway, im by no means loaded !! it discusts me and angers me to hear these wingeing farang men grovelling about how much to pay . what would you give a foreign wife ? gold, clothes, holidays, why should thai woman be treated any differently ? treat them with respect and love and that is what you will get back !! well most of us anyway , if your half wise, if you want to be a fool then be a fool.

But as l recall what you talk hasn't happened to you in your case.

Also your list, most Thai wives get all those goodies too.

My wife's daughter marries next month, the Thai groom will put 100,000 on the table for traditions sake, then put it back in his pocket.

Farangland, the father of the bride 'used' to pay for the wedding, tradition, but now in reality the couple pays for it all.

[thaicbr]

my answer is very simple, if you love and respect your thai wife then you must also show your respect to her family and pay up. 100,000 is the average for me anyway, im by no means loaded !! it discusts me and angers me to hear these wingeing farang men grovelling about how much to pay . what would you give a foreign wife ? gold, clothes, holidays, why should thai woman be treated any differently ? treat them with respect and love and that is what you will get back !! well most of us anyway , if your half wise, if you want to be a fool then be a fool.

What a load of <deleted> this is.. Respect has nothing to do with money. What are the Thai family going to offer MY mum who has to endure the harsh UK winters, high costs, rent etc on a low pension.

My Thai inlaws are actually of working age, the house is owned etc. So tell me why the hell should i pay them any money.

I understand the Traditional showing of money to confirm that you can look after the daughter but that's all it should be.

Ps.. I like my Thai inlaws and i am lucky they remember my name. I have no problem helping out from time to time.

[Wallaby]

And why should someone who doesn't have 2 shekels to rub together be asked to look after your mother. Is that their tradition? You chose to marry a thai girl then follow their tradition. If you don't want to do that then don't be surprised if she finds someone else. If she still wants you then well done and good luck.

It's pretty much that simple.