Cambodia Threatens To Open Fire On Thailand

[ukfool]

If Thailand profess to be civilized, then they should both stop sabre rattling and get down to talks, even after fighting there has to be talks to find the end solution, so why dont they both go to the end game, sit down and talk? If its so important why do they not arrange talks now, even if its just to find out what the other sides position is and what is the minimum they will accept? I guess the main difficulty is the upcoming General Election so let to a bit of prep and sort it out once and for all after the new govt takes its place, the current situation is unacceptable as is fighting, neighbours should sort it out in a civilized way.

Does the headline say "Thailand Threatens to Open Fire on Cambodia"?

No, but neither does it say Thailand will respect the World court ruling of 1962 handing the disputed area to Cambodia.

[Payboy]

For every tank that Cambodia mobilize,

The Thai generals can mobilize 10 Mercedes.

[Scott]

Several off-topic posts have been removed.

[baboon]

i

Stop it both of you and take a look at Korea.They hate each other far more than Thailand and Cambodia do,yet they maintain rail,road and sea links,not to mention the joint security area at Panmunjom.If they can co operate [no matter how reluctantly],so can you without sending your youngsters out to die.

What? You think the Koreas get along better? A North Korean submarine sunk a South Korean naval ship killing 46 people early last year, then followed it up by launching an artillery bombardment on a South Korean village in November. North and South Koreans can not freely cross the border, they have the most heavily fortified border in the world and if you try to cross it you will be shot or blown up by a mine. North Koreans are PRISONERS in their own country, they risk death trying to get to South Korea.

Thailand and Cambodia though have many sea and road links, and once Cambodia gets functioning railroads they will have a rail link too. Hundreds of thousands of Cambodian work in Thailand, and locals and tourists cross the border freely every day.

Besides the fact that any militarily a conflict would end in disaster for Cambodia, economically they are too dependent to do anything. Too many desperately impoverished people rely on family members working in Thailand to survive. Too many daily goods are imported from Thailand. Hopefully this all just going to end up being posturing for elections

I would disagree on a couple of things,but I concede the point.

[rolf2009]

Didn't this thing started due a UN resolution, that this Wat is now World Heritage? Why not just revoke the status? Just take away the toy when 2 children fighting over it.

[Thaddeus]

For every tank that Cambodia mobilize, Thailand can mobilize 10 tanks. Thailand can easily out number the Cambodian. http://upload.wikime...doChina1886.jpg

This is a worrying situation. I live on the Cambodian border and of late have noticed an increase in air activity. Yesterday four helicopters of the Thai Air Force flew up and down the border. In addition a few days ago a squadron of F26's did likewise.

And the number of Cambodian ladies working in the local karaoke bars has increased. Spies?

[kuffki]

For every tank that Cambodia mobilize, Thailand can mobilize 10 tanks. Thailand can easily out number the Cambodian. http://upload.wikime...doChina1886.jpg

This is a worrying situation. I live on the Cambodian border and of late have noticed an increase in air activity. Yesterday four helicopters of the Thai Air Force flew up and down the border. In addition a few days ago a squadron of F26's did likewise.

exactly, Thai military has been agonizing Cambodians, so there really should not be any wonder why Cambodia would mobilize and make a statement as it did.

[LomSak27]

Animatic posted

It's over oil ladden seabed, nationalistic face and possibly Thaksin stirring the pot still.

Or it was created by anti Thaksin forces as part of their Thaksin conspiracy theories (see Emerald Bhudda, Finland Plot and Erawan shrine incident) and now has assumed a life of its own. Events are in the saddle and ........

Not all that suprised to see the anti thaksin people here bending over backwards and going into severe contortions to convince themselves and others that Thailand has a case here and this mess was not all their own creation.

- just need more popcorn -

[SomTumTiger]

This is nothing but posturing. All the talk about war is nonsense, and will be borne out as such. Mark it down.

[Suiken]

this doesn't sound good as I am heading to thailand tomorrow

[Macmundi]

Where are the so called 'patriots'? Now that war is about to errupt, they disappear. Time to show up you guys!! get out from under the rocks you're hiding. Go and be the so called 'patriots' you claim yourself to be and go stand in the front line!!

Edited February 1, 2011 by Macmundi

[ballpoint]

If Thailand profess to be civilized, then they should both stop sabre rattling and get down to talks, even after fighting there has to be talks to find the end solution, so why dont they both go to the end game, sit down and talk? If its so important why do they not arrange talks now, even if its just to find out what the other sides position is and what is the minimum they will accept? I guess the main difficulty is the upcoming General Election so let to a bit of prep and sort it out once and for all after the new govt takes its place, the current situation is unacceptable as is fighting, neighbours should sort it out in a civilized way.

Does the headline say "Thailand Threatens to Open Fire on Cambodia"?

No, but neither does it say Thailand will respect the World court ruling of 1962 handing the disputed area to Cambodia.

The 1962 ruling was simply on who owned the temple. Show me one quote from Abhisit where he is demanding the temple back. The land at the centre of this row was never demarcated by the court. Sorry to tell all the blood thirsty posters, salivating over the prospects of a bunch of poor Thai and Cambodian soldiers blowing each other away and dragging Vietnam into a regional conflict, but ownership of the land in question is disputed. Even the Cambodians won't argue with that, hence the 2000 MOU to reach a decision on it, and other border areas including offshore ones. The Thai government is talking about negotiations, a few thousand nationalist loonies are camped out in Bangkok, the Cambodians are mobilising tanks and artillery, and making real threats of war, and the Thai bashers are having a field day. What a bunch of animals.

Of course a jointly administered zone for the benefit of both sides is the logical solution, after all, from 1962 to 2008 the temple belonged to Cambodia, easiest access was from Thailand and, following the end of the Khmer Rouge, both Thais and Cambodians benefitted from selling junk to tourists visiting the temple, mainly from the Thai side. With the world heritage designation, and its implicit handing ownership of the land to Cambodia, despite having no legal right to do so, things changed. Market sellers of both nationalities were evicted by both sides, and the land has been caught up in the internal political bickering of both countries. Let's hope that cooler heads prevail on both sides and we shortly see the Cambodian flag flying above the temple and both Cambodian and Thai flags over a jointly administered "friendship zone".

[gemini81]

Flatten it and build a Big C.

Acting like flippin kids the pair of em.

yeah, or let Hun Sen flatten it, like he does people's homes without any needed permission, in true communist form.

[Siripon]

If Thailand profess to be civilized, then they should both stop sabre rattling and get down to talks, even after fighting there has to be talks to find the end solution, so why dont they both go to the end game, sit down and talk? If its so important why do they not arrange talks now, even if its just to find out what the other sides position is and what is the minimum they will accept? I guess the main difficulty is the upcoming General Election so let to a bit of prep and sort it out once and for all after the new govt takes its place, the current situation is unacceptable as is fighting, neighbours should sort it out in a civilized way.

Does the headline say "Thailand Threatens to Open Fire on Cambodia"?

No, but neither does it say Thailand will respect the World court ruling of 1962 handing the disputed area to Cambodia.

The 1962 ruling was simply on who owned the temple. Show me one quote from Abhisit where he is demanding the temple back. The land at the centre of this row was never demarcated by the court. Sorry to tell all the blood thirsty posters, salivating over the prospects of a bunch of poor Thai and Cambodian soldiers blowing each other away and dragging Vietnam into a regional conflict, but ownership of the land in question is disputed. Even the Cambodians won't argue with that, hence the 2000 MOU to reach a decision on it, and other border areas including offshore ones. The Thai government is talking about negotiations, a few thousand nationalist loonies are camped out in Bangkok, the Cambodians are mobilising tanks and artillery, and making real threats of war, and the Thai bashers are having a field day. What a bunch of animals.

Of course a jointly administered zone for the benefit of both sides is the logical solution, after all, from 1962 to 2008 the temple belonged to Cambodia, easiest access was from Thailand and, following the end of the Khmer Rouge, both Thais and Cambodians benefitted from selling junk to tourists visiting the temple, mainly from the Thai side. With the world heritage designation, and its implicit handing ownership of the land to Cambodia, despite having no legal right to do so, things changed. Market sellers of both nationalities were evicted by both sides, and the land has been caught up in the internal political bickering of both countries. Let's hope that cooler heads prevail on both sides and we shortly see the Cambodian flag flying above the temple and both Cambodian and Thai flags over a jointly administered "friendship zone".

Thailand offered to jointly manage the disputed are around Pra Viharn but the Cambodians rejected the offer.

[ozzieman05]

40 years has past since the border was made the defult line

Surveyors equiptment is 1000 times more accurate in 2011 so why not get the border surveryed using the latest equiptment and both sides accept the final ruling

For those who feel the Cambodia has more experience than Thais, how long do you feel the the US would not stick their noses into the action with advise and advisors if this turned into a border conflict using arms

And if Vietnam got involved that would open Pandora's Box

[Steely Dan]

For every tank that Cambodia mobilize, Thailand can mobilize 10 tanks. Thailand can easily out number the Cambodian. http://upload.wikime...doChina1886.jpg

This is a worrying situation. I live on the Cambodian border and of late have noticed an increase in air activity. Yesterday four helicopters of the Thai Air Force flew up and down the border. In addition a few days ago a squadron of F26's did likewise.

It's most revealing to even be thinking along the lines of who has the most capable army as this is just one step away from asserting your point of view through force. True Thailand have been set a bad example by the way colonial powers treated them in the past, and I also dare say Thailand would probably get away with a limited amount of changing borders by force before they would face international sanctions, but is it really worth it over a pile of stones which if it were not contested would probably bring tourism revenue to both parties.

If this is not resolved peacefully I see zero chance of maritime oil exploration being resolved without violence and in that area Cambodia could always trade oil rights for defence guarantees with Vietnam and I'm 100% sure in such an eventuality things would not end happily for Thailand.

[SomTumTiger]

Flatten it and build a Big C.

Acting like flippin kids the pair of em.

yeah, or let Hun Sen flatten it, like he does people's homes without any needed permission, in true communist form.

You can't disparage Hun Sen like that - he enjoys protected status here.

[tig28]

The 1962 ruling was simply on who owned the temple.............. The land at the centre of this row was never demarcated by the court.

Hi ballpoint.

That is completely incorrect. The application to the International Court of Justice was all about territory.The courts judgment specifically addressed "teritory" ----- and that territory was clearly defined by the court using the French survey map 1907 Annex I .

This "temple only" fantasy is just a red herring raised by the PAD (and now strangely PM Abhisit) to further confuse a matter that was finalized some 50 years ago.. Please refer to wording of the Judgment of the ICJ below:

"In its Judgment on the merits the Court, by nine votes to three, found that the Temple of Preah Vihear was situated in territory under the sovereignty of Cambodia and, in consequence, that Thailand was under an obligation to withdraw any military or police forces, or other guards or keepers, stationed by her at the Temple, or in its vicinity on Cambodian territory."

http://www.icj-cij.o...se=45&k=46&p3=5

[Pi Sek]

The 1962 ruling was simply on who owned the temple.............. The land at the centre of this row was never demarcated by the court.

Hi ballpoint.

That is completely incorrect. The application to the International Court of Justice was all about territory.The courts judgment specifically addressed "teritory" ----- and that territory was clearly defined by the court using the French survey map 1907 Annex I .

This "temple only" fantasy is just a red herring raised by the PAD (and now strangely PM Abhisit) to further confuse a matter that was finalized some 50 years ago.. Please refer to wording of the Judgment of the ICJ below:

"In its Judgment on the merits the Court, by nine votes to three, found that the Temple of Preah Vihear was situated in territory under the sovereignty of Cambodia and, in consequence, that Thailand was under an obligation to withdraw any military or police forces, or other guards or keepers, stationed by her at the Temple, or in its vicinity on Cambodian territory."

http://www.icj-cij.o...se=45&k=46&p3=5

Actually, the way I read it, the ICJ judgement says exactly that - the temple is on Cambodian land. It says nothing about the surrounding 4.6 sq.km around the site, and that is what the Thais are claiming as theirs. So I think ballpoint was correct. Your moniker may have vindicated you against this reply however!

Given that a bunch of expats can't agree on it when it's in printed black-and-white English, it's little wonder that a lot of Thais don't have an opinion on this other than what they're told.

Furthermore, your link shows that the French came at the request of the Thais to draw the map! I never knew that! I now must revoke my earlier statement that the French had no business drawing maps other than powermongering. Merci de m'excusez.

[webfact]

Govt Affirms No Border Tension

The deputy prime minister in charge of national security says the situation at the Thai-Cambodian border is not tense.

Meanwhile, the prime minister affirms he has been briefed about the Thai military putting up a Thai flag at the Thai-Cambodian border to counter the Cambodian flag that is flying above disputed territory.

Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva spoke before attending the Cabinet meeting that he has been briefed about how the Thai military has put up a Thai flag to counter Cambodia's refusal to remove its flag from the Kaew Sikha Khiri Sawara Temple, which is on disputed territory.

Deputy Prime Minister in charge of national security Suthep Thaugsuban affirmed the situation at the Thai-Cambodian border is not tense and there is nothing to worry about as both sides can still open dialogues with each other.

He added that the Thai military's move to counter the flying of the Cambodian flag is appropriate as Cambodia has violated the terms of the 2000 memorandum of understanding.

He said the protest for the removal of the temple itself must follow due protocol.

Suthep is not worried about Cambodia's military exercise along the border as Thailand is doing the same thing, but the Thai military is not reinforcing troops at the border at this time.

The deputy premier said the filing of a malfeasance suit against him by the People's Alliance for Democracy, or PAD, is a good thing as it will force both him and the group to bring out evidence in court to back up their case.

He reported there is no progress in the police's negotiations with the PAD to reopen roads blocked by the protests, but reiterated there is no need to invoke the state of emergency at this time.

Suthep refused to speculate on the outcome of the trial against two Thais, Veera Somkwamkid and Ratree Pipatanapaiboon, in Cambodia, but assured senior Thai politicians have been coordinating with Cambodian leaders for help for the pair.

-- Tan Network 2011-02-01

[whybother]

"He added that Thara's claims appear groundless when compared with land ownership certificates produced by the owners of land plots adjacent to the UN pond."

Is it possible that these land ownership certificates were produced by some corrupt government employees in the land department? It's not like it hasn't happened before.

[Siripon]

"He added that Thara's claims appear groundless when compared with land ownership certificates produced by the owners of land plots adjacent to the UN pond."

Is it possible that these land ownership certificates were produced by some corrupt government employees in the land department? It's not like it hasn't happened before.

The problem is partly one of neglect. For too long no Thai government did anything about Cambodians refugees settling on land with Thai title deeds and indeed some Thais have settled on land that is considered to be Cambodian.

Both sides need to thrash out the exact borderline, but it's impossible for either leaders to give anything away with the nationalistic rhetoric being thrown around both countries

[Crash999]

That is completely incorrect. The application to the International Court of Justice was all about territory.The courts judgment specifically addressed "teritory" ----- and that territory was clearly defined by the court using the French survey map 1907 Annex I .

This "temple only" fantasy is just a red herring raised by the PAD (and now strangely PM Abhisit) to further confuse a matter that was finalized some 50 years ago.. Please refer to wording of the Judgment of the ICJ below:

"In its Judgment on the merits the Court, by nine votes to three, found that the Temple of Preah Vihear was situated in territory under the sovereignty of Cambodia and, in consequence, that Thailand was under an obligation to withdraw any military or police forces, or other guards or keepers, stationed by her at the Temple, or in its vicinity on Cambodian territory."

http://www.icj-cij.o...se=45&k=46&p3=5

The dissenting opinion of the UN ruling goes into great detail regarding the issue. Here it is in all its glory: http://www.icj-cij.org/docket/files/45/4885.pdf

In summary the "Mixed Commission" that decided the boundary between Cambodia and Siam agreed that it should follow the watershed- there were no special provisions for the temple. For various reasons it took years for the French to draw up maps of the boundary and by that time the Mixed Commission had already been dissolved, so the original border was still the watershed. However, the French maps that were drawn up had some errors- and the one that impacted the temple location was the supposed presence of a river called the O'Tasem which on the map is next to the temple (thus putting the temple in Cambodia) but in reality the river is several KMs to the West. So the survey map the was created with the intention of following the law was incorrect.

As for what happened afterwards- French occupation, Thai occupation, Khmer Rouge occupation, Thai occupation again- the original 1904 MIxed Commission ruling is still clear. That later maps were drawn up incorrectly (both showing the temple on Cambodian and Thai territory) doesn't change the original ruling, as the maps were not intended to be final binding documents.

Edited February 1, 2011 by Crash999

[lazygourmet]

Isn't Cambodia the only place on planet earth who did an auto-genocide ?!?

[ballpoint]

The 1962 ruling was simply on who owned the temple.............. The land at the centre of this row was never demarcated by the court.

Hi ballpoint.

That is completely incorrect. The application to the International Court of Justice was all about territory.The courts judgment specifically addressed "teritory" ----- and that territory was clearly defined by the court using the French survey map 1907 Annex I .

This "temple only" fantasy is just a red herring raised by the PAD (and now strangely PM Abhisit) to further confuse a matter that was finalized some 50 years ago.. Please refer to wording of the Judgment of the ICJ below:

"In its Judgment on the merits the Court, by nine votes to three, found that the Temple of Preah Vihear was situated in territory under the sovereignty of Cambodia and, in consequence, that Thailand was under an obligation to withdraw any military or police forces, or other guards or keepers, stationed by her at the Temple, or in its vicinity on Cambodian territory."

http://www.icj-cij.o...se=45&k=46&p3=5

Actually, the way I read it, the ICJ judgement says exactly that - the temple is on Cambodian land. It says nothing about the surrounding 4.6 sq.km around the site, and that is what the Thais are claiming as theirs. So I think ballpoint was correct. Your moniker may have vindicated you against this reply however!

Given that a bunch of expats can't agree on it when it's in printed black-and-white English, it's little wonder that a lot of Thais don't have an opinion on this other than what they're told.

Furthermore, your link shows that the French came at the request of the Thais to draw the map! I never knew that! I now must revoke my earlier statement that the French had no business drawing maps other than powermongering. Merci de m'excusez.

The fact that both Thailand and Cambodia signed the MOU in 2000 to sort out ownership of the land clearly shows that the issue wasn't settled in 1962. The court was asked to rule on whether the temple belonged to Thailand or Cambodia, it was not asked to formally define the border, even though it did use the French map to base its decision on. Its ruling, as stated above, was "that Thailand was under an obligation to withdraw any military or police forces, or other guards or keepers, stationed by her at the Temple, or in its vicinity on Cambodian territory." The current dispute is where exactly that "vicinity" ends and Thailand begins.

[trainman34014]

Flatten it and build a Big C.

Acting like flippin kids the pair of em.

Why not build a ruddy great Mall with half the shops run by Thai's and half run by Cambodians. It could be called 'Thaicam Mall'. Err; no, wait a minute, maybe it should be 'Camthai Mall'. Oh cripes! not another argument that could start a war !!

[asiawatcher]

Well Thai army did "flex" its muscle few days ago and now for every action there is a reaction.

the only difference is Cambodia seems to be pretty serious and i have a feeling willing to go all the way, i am not so sure about Thai military though.

What i do not understand is, why Thailand keeps with this stupidity? why not come to an agreement and share the benefits(money from tourism) rather then try to show its military might.

Also would it kill Thailand to "help" its neighbor? Thailand already is very well developed compared to Cambodia and gets 16 million tourists per year(well they they claim anyway), so would it really kill if a few of those will spend some money in Cambodia?

Reason and logic never meet. But good thoughts anyway.

[tig28]

The fact that both Thailand and Cambodia signed the MOU in 2000 to sort out ownership of the land clearly shows that the issue wasn't settled in 1962. The court was asked to rule on whether the temple belonged to Thailand or Cambodia, it was not asked to formally define the border, even though it did use the French map to base its decision on. Its ruling, as stated above, was "that Thailand was under an obligation to withdraw any military or police forces, or other guards or keepers, stationed by her at the Temple, or in its vicinity on Cambodian territory." The current dispute is where exactly that "vicinity" ends and Thailand begins.

The court decision of 1962 relates to only the near region of the Preah Vihear temple.The decision specifically used one particular map in defining its decision of border placement -- the French survey map 1907 Annex I. This map indicates a deviation away from the "water shed line" to enclose a small area around the Temple itself.

In the view of the three parties concerned -- the matter was now settled. The ICJ believed so -- Cambodia certainly believed so --- the looser in the case may have liked to have felt differently but remained silent (again)

.

Thailand then did nothing to challenge the border until 1978 -- when the they began with a new perceived problem ---- questioning the "precise" positioning of the line drawn in 1907 on a small detail map -- the French survey map 1907 Annex I. Many other maps were then brought onto play -- including a version of the French survey map 1907 Annex I -- but with additional "lines" added.

The belated questioning of the "precise" positioning of the border line in the area adjacent to the Preah Vihear Temple resulted in the creation of a M of U between the two countries --- both agreeing to attempt to resolve this new dispute by discussion/negotiation.It is important to remember that Thailand's 'first" & failed position was that the border followed the Water shed line. Very many meetings ensued.

I do not accept that a willingness on Cambodia's behalf to discuss Thailand's concerns ( in the framework of a M of U ) should in any way be represented as some form of agreement that Thailands Position has any validity -- or that the border boundary is in genuine question (by anyone other than Thailand).

It would seem that Cambodia acceded to pressure from Thailand in 1978--2000 in the interest of good neighbor relationships -- despite Thailand having failed in several previous attempts through the ICJ to even have its weak position adjudicated.

Many posters in this thread have asked why the two countries cannot negotiate a settlement. Well .. they have both been attempting to do so since 2000 --- hundreds of meetings -- with little progress towards resolution.

[bkksteviejai]

Why not build a ruddy great Mall with half the shops run by Thai's and half run by Cambodians. It could be called 'Thaicam Mall'. Err; no, wait a minute, maybe it should be 'Camthai Mall'. Oh cripes! not another argument that could start a war !!

Yep, seems that the nicely arranged pile of stones is almost incidental now in all this posturing. Sad so it is.

[Buchholz]

Cambodia Threatens To Open Fire On Thailand

The first salvo has been fired.

The other paper is reporting a Cambodian website is urging its readers to launch a cyberwar against the Bangkok Post online for its perceived biased coverage of the news.