Exodus Of Western Expats From Pattaya

[prefabs]

Been leaving since the day I arrived here. When I do eventually up sticks, it will be because it is time to go. No point moaning about the place we all been for a few years going downhill. We are all part of it, so we are partly to blame.

[Scabo]

Last yr me and the mrs went down to Phuket to see if it was worth moving down there.

Once I saw the price difference on basic items, that along with the overcrowed streets that

have little more to expand. Touts on every corner

We came back to Patt's in agreement Pattaya is not too bad after all.

[Awohalitsiktoli]

Last yr me and the mrs went down to Phuket to see if it was worth moving down there.

Once I saw the price difference on basic items, that along with the overcrowed streets that

have little more to expand. Touts on every corner

We came back to Patt's in agreement Pattaya is not too bad after all.

I understand. I was frustrated with Pattaya, visited Hell, then decided Pattaya was OK

Seriously, if you do not have 20 years of experience living in the area, your posts do not mean much.

Yes, an exodus of expats did occur. But other (IMHO much worse) expats took their place.

Yes, lots of bad things have happened (increase in crime, traffic, pollution, cost of living, numbers of people) and it is truly "paradise lost." But some good things have happened (e.g. more western food choices and better malls).

Unfortunately we can't go back to the paradise lost. And those with no long term perspective will never understand what was lost.

[barryofthailand]

Lots of people like myself have moved to Korat. Yes their are no beaches in Korat, but the Mall has Chlorine free swimming pools, and you can swim for free. We have a great upscale super market in the Mall, and the rumor is that Central will be building a Mall in Korat to be completed by 2013. More, and more expats are moving up here.

Barry

[gk10002000]

I agree with one of the posters. The traffic has gone up tremendously since I first visited in 2004. It can literally be impossible to cross 2nd road. Beach road traffic backups were pretty rare, and only during a few weeks in high season and on a Fri or Saturday for a few hours.

City has lost a lot of the quaintness. Soi 8 lost a lot of small places. I don't like that monstrosity new mall. Big and spacious but don't need that. Big C and a Carre 4 and a Mike's mall and a Garden mall was enough. I don't want malls and malls. Too much.

I came very close to buying a place in 2005 on my third trip. In retrospect,it was a good decision not to. Prices have dropped, US dollar to Baht went South.

The place is still fun to visit and I do like the Thai people. Can't wait for my next visit.

[Tokay]

Eight of my friends have left Pattaya over the past 18 months. Five returned to their home country for various reasons and three of them relocated to other places in Thailand.

Of the five who went home, three of them want to return but not to Pattaya. One never wants to return to Thailand. One wants to return to Pattaya.

Of the three who relocated to another area of Thailand, all three said it was the best decisions they've ever made.

One thing to keep in mind is, as quickly as the Russians, Arabs and Indians poured in, they can also leave just as quickly. Economies both boom and go bust and exchange rates sometimes flutter in the wind.

[jori]

Eight of my friends have left Pattaya over the past 18 months. Five returned to their home country for various reasons and three of them relocated to other places in Thailand.

Of the five who went home, three of them want to return but not to Pattaya. One never wants to return to Thailand. One wants to return to Pattaya.

Of the three who relocated to another area of Thailand, all three said it was the best decisions they've ever made.

One thing to keep in mind is, as quickly as the Russians, Arabs and Indians poured in, they can also leave just as quickly. Economies both boom and go bust and exchange rates sometimes flutter in the wind.

Good post. Backteeth comes to mind here,while I have to stay in Thailand for a duration there are far better places than Pattaya for sure,but the TGF has a half decent job here,she would be jobless elsewhere so that means ditching her,quite educated and past her prime feel quite sorry for her at that prospect,but ditching her will have to come as I cannot take her to Europe as much as I'd like.

I cannot see the russkies or any other nationality taking hold in Thailand either. Pattaya and Thailand in general does seem to be past it's best,have seen plenty of westerners depart for good in last 12 months never to return,the theme seems to be catching on too with other people I meet.

[CheGuava]

"Pattaya: Nobody goes there anymore, it's become WAY too crowded."

Absolutely precious topic, this.

[moo9]

Eight of my friends have left Pattaya over the past 18 months. Five returned to their home country for various reasons and three of them relocated to other places in Thailand.

Of the five who went home, three of them want to return but not to Pattaya. One never wants to return to Thailand. One wants to return to Pattaya.

Of the three who relocated to another area of Thailand, all three said it was the best decisions they've ever made.

One thing to keep in mind is, as quickly as the Russians, Arabs and Indians poured in, they can also leave just as quickly. Economies both boom and go bust and exchange rates sometimes flutter in the wind.

In order to judge your statistics it would be necessary to know HOW MANY friends you have.

After all because of the over pricing and high quality efforts, the place loses some attraction. Iti is not Pattaya's mistake - the country is developing with all effects, incl higher living costs etc.

The problem remains for the Thai people that their basic salaries do not follow the trend. Bucks are made by a very small percentage of the society.

[darrendsd]

The decline really sped up about 2 years ago. Now all I see is Russian tourists everywhere and bars being torn down. Sad to see the place go to the dogs like it has.

I moved to Pattaya just as it started to take this nosedive. I had no idea when I moved here everyone else would be moving out.

Should I move somewhere else? Maybe a different country? I've thought about moving to Cambodia. No visa hassles is a big plus for me, since I'm only 30 and can't get a retirement visa. Khmer food is pretty tasty. Prices are fairly low if you can avoid getting ripped off. Although the major downside is the lack of infrastructure. No good hospitals yet and few of the nice condos you have in Thailand.

I wouldn't move to Hua Hin. I predict in 5 years it will be another Pattaya. Cha Am will be another Pattaya in about 10 yrs.

I've lived in Hua Hin for 5 yesrs, the chances of this place or Cha am becoming another Pattaya are absolutley zero.

[tlcwaterfall]

In what way are the Russians "Imposing their culture on the place"?

Rather funny that comment...what have the Wesetrn Europeans been doing the past 20 years or so with Irish bars and the like.........

Your comment is funny as well.

Said 'Wesetrn Europeans' (Assume you mean Western) have been providing services that the current and previous lot of tourists and expats require.

If Russians continue to visit and live here there will no doubt be an increase in services for them as well. Sorry to state some obvious facts.

[Mobi]

I reckon there has always been an exodus of expats from Pattaya which, over time, has been pretty much replaced by new arrivals. Indeed it would be an interesting exercise to establish how long the average expat actually stays in Pattaya (excluding tourists). Some stay here for decades, others stay barely a few months; most stay for a few years in between these two aforementioned extremes.

My gut feeling is that a majority of expats probably live here between 3 - 5 years before moving on, either to other parts of Thailand, to another third world country such as Cambodia, or back to their home countries. I have nothing to back up this assertion other than the fact that a good many farangs who I knew 6 years ago when I first moved to Pattaya, are no longer here, and I am talking about 'long term' residents, most of whom bought houses or condos and used to live mainly on the Darkside.

There are many reasons why farangs leave Pattaya. Many of the 'not so well off' fraternity packed up and moved out after the visa-run clamp down which immediately preceded the world economic crisis, the falling exchange rates, the foreign ownership issues and the political troubles. All these factors took their toll, particularly at the 'bottom end' - the so called 'dead beats'. Others leave because they have found the 'love of their life' and no longer need to indulge in the delights that Pattaya has to offer. Some take their wives back to their home countries, and many move to their wives' villages and set up homes there. Then there are others who didn't meet 'the love of their live' - in fact, just the opposite - they met the wife or GF from hell who skilfully relieved them of all their 'worldly goods' and thus necessitated a move back to their home country to lick their wounds and dream of what might have been.

I could go on and on, indeed not an inconsiderable number of farangs depart their 'mortal coils' in this sunny city, either from natural causes, alcohol induced causes or by foul means.

But however many farangs leave, over time they are always replaced by new arrivals, hell bent on having the time of their life in Sin city, or just hoping to live out a happy life in a 'friendly and cheap' tropical paradise. The new influx may well contain a higher number of Russians or Arabs or whatever nationality, but in the long run it is all pretty transient. The Russians who have arrived in the past few years will move on in due course, just like all the other farangs before them, and who knows- there may come a day when Pattaya becomes full of Eskimos and Mexicans. Things change, the world changes, and people's economic circumstances change, as do the attractions that are on offer in Pattaya.

Whether you like it or not, Pattaya is slowly moving up-market. The powers that be are determined to make this transition in their top tourist city and every day we can see it in the ever improving infrastructure, the increasing number of 5 star hotels and the long term plans that are under way for the development of Pattaya over the next decade and beyond. Sometimes it seems like one step forward, two steps back, but the general movement is onwards and upwards and is unstoppable.

Those of us who have been here a few years have seen these changes and must acknowledge that it is no longer the crazy, quaint, little fun town crammed full of the cheapest whores in the world which first brought so many of us to its shores. But who, in our hearts, can really begrudge the changes.

Even here in the Mabprachan area of East Pattaya I have seen so many changes since I first built my house here. Six years ago this place was truly the Darkside. I believe there was one restaurant (Khun John's) and a couple of run down bars. Most of the lake was inaccessible and after seven o'clock you rarely saw a single vehicle on the roads – and it was very, very dark.

Now it is fast becoming a ‘satellite town’ of Pattaya, with hundreds, if not thousands of expat-type homes, many in their own gated 'villages'; at last count 3 decent hotels in the Pong area alone, and literally dozens of restaurants and bars to suit all tastes. Much of the lakeside has been landscaped, (an on-going project), and residents picnic, jog and walk their dogs along the lakeside on the evenings and weekends and there is canoeing, yachting and fishing activities on the lake itself. I couldn't believe the huge crowd of mainly Thais who assembled to celebrate Loi Krathong last November. The local Wat put on a massive show and true to the times, they charged all Loi Krathong celebrants for admission to their fenced off part of the lake, plus another charge to see the live concert and yet another fee to park your car. Yes, times have truly changed in Pattaya and its environs and it will never again be the delightful little fishing village that some of us remember from the 1970's.

But make no mistake; the farangs will still keep coming - probably richer and more demanding in their quality of life and entertainment than their predecessors. They will never have known a time when the pound was worth eighty Baht and the dollar 50 Baht, and the girls were 100 Baht a time, so they will not have any 'good old days’ to reminisce about……..

[Darrel]

But who, in our hearts, can really begrudge the changes.

Well, I do for one.

There are loads of dull middle-class family holiday destinations in the world, all as boring as each other. No need to turn Pattaya into one also. No point for that matter.

I remember it well as the little fishing village of the 70s and also as the sleazy single-male destination of the 80s.

The world needs more interesting places like that, not less.

[Jingthing]

I don't know but I think there can be room for all kinds in Pattaya. Look at Acapulco, a major Mexican city on the sea, lots of families (mostly from Mexican and all of Latin America) and also plenty of sleaze in certain districts. If you mean it isn't cheap enough anymore, well where is it?

[Mobi]

But who, in our hearts, can really begrudge the changes.

Well, I do for one.

There are loads of dull middle-class family holiday destinations in the world, all as boring as each other. No need to turn Pattaya into one also. No point for that matter.

I remember it well as the little fishing village of the 70s and also as the sleazy single-male destination of the 80s.

The world needs more interesting places like that, not less.

With all due respect, I find your comments a tad self serving.

Of course many of us would like Pattaya to stay in some kind of 'time warp' but the plain fact is that it won't.

Yes, you might dislike the changes, but are you sure that the world and Thailand actually need the Pattaya of old, with it's incredibly notorious reputation as one of the most sleazy cities on earth and also one in which paedophiles operate with impunity and child trafficking still abounds?. but the world??

I believe that the needs of Thailand and the residents of Pattaya far outweigh the needs and desires of ageing farangs still hearkening back to the 'bad old days'.

In any case, as Jingthing quite rightly states, it is highly unlikely that Pattaya will change so much that there won't remain pockets of the 'old Pattaya' where your 'non boring' desires can still be indulged with impunity, albeit at a higher cost than before.

Pattaya and Thailand in general will probably always be a place where anything is available - at a price....

Edited February 16, 2011 by Rimmer

[Darrel]

Ah, here we go. It doesnt take long for some clown to start accusing anyone who doesnt share his narrow-minded views of being a pervert, does it? How tedious.

I certainly dont need sleaze, in fact I dont participate in it at all. I just think it's far more entertaining to walk down a street with a bit of raw life in it than it is to watch fat farang families shopping for fake designer t-shirts and eating ice-cream. There are endless places around the world that cater to family tourists and I dont see the need to make more of them. One day soon this is all there will be, and there will be no point travelling at all as everywhere will be the same. That will be a very sad day.

[somtampet]

I love Pattaya because everyone's so calm, cool, happy & contented here, in this Thai Paradise we all call home... and I can see I'm not the only one.

Today's forecast for the Greater Pattaya Area: Gonna be a great day!

Tomorrow: Even better!

Monday: Valentine's Day

Sanuk, sanuk krap...

GOOD POST MATE

After visiting family for 2 weeks in the uk i was the happiest man alive to get back to the peace of Pattaya,warm days,walking by the beach,not freezing my nuts off.Celebrated 7 years of living in Pattaya and the place gets better for me.Granted the traffic can be bad but its worse in the uk and one can get round easy by walking or motorbike,without getting the car out.

[gmac]

I love Pattaya because everyone's so calm, cool, happy & contented here, in this Thai Paradise we all call home... and I can see I'm not the only one.

Today's forecast for the Greater Pattaya Area: Gonna be a great day!

Tomorrow: Even better!

Monday: Valentine's Day

Sanuk, sanuk krap...

GOOD POST MATE

After visiting family for 2 weeks in the uk i was the happiest man alive to get back to the peace of Pattaya,warm days,walking by the beach,not freezing my nuts off.Celebrated 7 years of living in Pattaya and the place gets better for me.Granted the traffic can be bad but its worse in the uk and one can get round easy by walking or motorbike,without getting the car out.

Nothing like a reality check back in the UK to remind us of how good we've really got it here in Pattaya.

[chops]

What nonsense.

Pattaya has been an over-crowded sleaze-pit for at least 20 years ...

Don't get me wrong, I like the place, but pretending that it was a idyllic spot just 7 years ago is just plain silly.

Most of the year it wasn't all that over-crowded even ten or fifteen years ago, or at least didn't appear to be.

Before TukCom was resurrected about the only activity on Pattaya Tai , was at Friendship SuperMarket and late at night at Hollywood. Third Rd had a few small bar/karaoke places that mainly catered to Thais. Further east was totally dead. The only thing approaching a shopping mall was Big C near Pattaya Nua. You could walk across 2nd Rd or Beach Rd or Pattaya Tai without much hassle with traffic. December to February it become more crowded, but during the summer months it was pretty quiet. Sleazy it's always been.

If there are more Russians and fewer Brits, for example, why is that a bad thing? If you crave Brits or Americans, there's plenty of them in UK or the USA. Coming to Thailand seeking their company seems a little odd.

As to mass exoduses, everytime the wind shifts (or the baht exchange rate changes or there's some political noise from red or yellow shirts or there's a coup or they change the times the bars can stay open or they enforce visa regulations or some new flu strain emerges or there's a curfew or ...) all the Chicken Littles announce the end is nigh, everyone is leaving, that's the last nail in the coffin ...

Judging from conversations overheard in the elevator/lift in my building I'd say there are more Germans than before, a fair number more permanent resident Thais, a smattering of French speakers and some more who appear to be Scandinavian and a few people from the Middle East. None of them has attempted to impose his/her culture on me.

Once again applying a Yogi Berra quote to Pattaya, "No one goes there anymore, it's too crowded."

Ok. But does an entire population of a country have to invade a small town?

I've moved up north where it's peaceful and quiet. No package tourist invasions. No loud music blasting from bars. It's great.

The place is getting too overrun with these people. It's the main reason I left. When they leave, maybe I'll return.

[Ulysses G.]

I've moved up north where it's peaceful and quiet. No package tourist invasions. No loud music blasting from bars. It's great.

The place is getting too overrun with these people. It's the main reason I left. When they leave, maybe I'll return.

We are talking about Pattaya. What did you really expect?

By the way, they are not leaving, so enjoy Nachon Nowhere and its many delights.

[Rumcabal]

I remember it well as the little fishing village of the 70s and also as the sleazy single-male destination of the 80s.

The world needs more interesting places like that, not less.

I certainly dont need sleaze, in fact I dont participate in it at all. I just think it's far more entertaining to walk down a street with a bit of raw life

Really?? Been coming to 'interesting' and 'raw' Pattaya for over 30 years but not sleezing at all?? Please.........

[Rumcabal]

Yes, you might dislike the changes, but are you sure that the world and Thailand actually need the Pattaya of old, with it's incredibly notorious reputation as one of the most sleazy cities on earth and also one in which paedophiles operate with impunity and child trafficking still abounds?. but the world??

I believe that the needs of Thailand and the residents of Pattaya far outweigh the needs and desires of ageing farangs still hearkening back to the 'bad old days'.

Bravo. Great Post. What exactly is wrong with Thailand and Pattaya moving forward, developing like the rest of the world? The jaded old sexpats may hark back to 'the good old days' but them good old day is not what the majority of Thais want. New motorways, new developments, new business is welcomed warmly in Western countries - why begrudge Thai's the same amenities? Because its not what YOU want - well thats just too bad......

[Michaelaway]

It's natural: Times change, places change, and people must adapt, adjust and overcome... or move! Nothing in there about whining and complaining; get over it. Pattaya is a fine place for us to call home... or this crap might be in the Angeles Expat Form, the San Jose Expat Forum or... ?

[Mobi]

Ah, here we go. It doesnt take long for some clown to start accusing anyone who doesnt share his narrow-minded views of being a pervert, does it? How tedious.

I certainly dont need sleaze, in fact I dont participate in it at all. I just think it's far more entertaining to walk down a street with a bit of raw life in it than it is to watch fat farang families shopping for fake designer t-shirts and eating ice-cream. There are endless places around the world that cater to family tourists and I dont see the need to make more of them. One day soon this is all there will be, and there will be no point travelling at all as everywhere will be the same. That will be a very sad day.

In your earlier post you stated that there was 'no point' in Pattaya changing, so I enlightened you on a number of valid points on the need for change, but of course, none of these points would be of interest to the likes of you.

I didn't accuse you of anything, in fact I was very polite but if the cap fits.....

Thailand and Pattaya are slowly being brought kicking and screaming into the 21st century and they no longer have any desire to flaunt their sleaze before the eyes of the world. And 'flaunt' is the operative word as I doubt that there is a village or town the length and breadth of the country which doesn't boast at least one massage parlour and kareoke bar. But they are all tucked down side streets and are not flaunted for every sex pat to see and rub his hands in glee.

The same will eventually happen in Pattaya - plenty of sex available, but discretely tucked away from the main tourist areas.

It wouldn't surprise me if Walking Street itself isn't eventually pulled down and redeveloped (much as the notorious Boogie Street was in Singapore). For one thing it is my understanding that most of the establishments on the beach side of Walking Street are in breach of the law as they encroach on public shore line. This is probably at least a decade away, but one day, mark my words....

As for being 'narrow minded', well you only have to read my posts or my blog to know that Mobi happens to be 'carouser in chief' when in comes to indulging in the sleaze that Pattaya has to offer.

Unlike you, although I personally bemoan the passing of the good old times, I am realistic enough to realise that those times are slowly going and it is only to the benefit of the country that I have chosen to make my home.

If you really hanker after the Pattaya old, why don't you try Sihanoukville in Cambodia, or some of the coastal resorts in Vietnam, or even Cebu in the Philippines. Thailand's economy is much stronger than any of those countries and it will be rapidly becoming a '1st world' Asia country over the next decade, providing it can solve it's political problems.

[tropo]

What nonsense.

Pattaya has been an over-crowded sleaze-pit for at least 20 years (and probably well before). It has always had regular "clean-ups" and expats and tourists have always complained about this and that.

The only thing that has changed much is more Indian and Russian tourists (and maybe more violent crime).

Don't get me wrong, I like the place, but pretending that it was a idyllic spot just 7 years ago is just plain silly.

Yep, nonsense....agreed.

I've been here 6 years and the place hasn't changed much at all. It feels exactly the same with a few extra high rises and Central shopping mall thrown in. Perhaps the OP's time frame should be 25 years, not 7.

Don't forget the Arabs...they're really gaining momentum as visitors here. They absolutely adore the place.

When I came here USD = 40 baht. Now - around 30 baht. Westerners are leaving or staying away because of their poor exchange rates, nothing else.

Interesting slant - I spoke with the owner of small Japanese restaurant (Osaka near Tukcom) yesterday. He's packed every night, mostly with Japanese customers. It's been his best high season for years. He owns a beer bar in a very prominent location near the entrance of Walking Street which is doing very poorly this year.

To keep a beer bar pumping you need bored Americans, Australians, Englishmen etc who don't mind spending 5 hours propping up a bar stool while getting drunk and playing dice games with average looking hookers. That business is dying and many of us won't miss the back of it.

This statement by the OP says it all:

"Instead of a relatively homogenous Western expat population the city is now dominated by hordes of boorish Russian men and Russian women increasingly imposing their culture on the place".

The OP obviously has an extreme prejudice against Russians and prefers beer-swilling Anglo Saxon sexpats and sex tourists imposing a different type of culture on the place.

...and perhaps he's a real estate agent with property to sell in Bang Chang.

Edited February 17, 2011 by tropo

[tropo]

The Indians and Russians were here 5 years ago when I came first. There are loads more now though. Why ? Cos its cheap. And they have more disposable income. Gone are the days of the Soviets being caged up behind the Iron Curtain. Gone are the days of the British Raj and punkawallahs, servants and oppression of the local population.

A few more reasons - Russia is close, very cold and has a huge population.

Edited February 17, 2011 by tropo

[Awohalitsiktoli]

I've been here 6 years and the place hasn't changed much at all. It feels exactly the same with a few extra high rises and Central shopping mall thrown in. Perhaps the OP's time frame should be 25 years, not 7.

When I came here USD = 40 baht. Now - around 30 baht. Westerners are leaving or staying away because of their poor exchange rates, nothing else.

Six years is not enough to spot the trend many of us are talking about. Yes, the OP's time frame should be 25 years and not 7.

I strongly disagree that the only reason expats have left is the poor exchange rate. Of course, it is one factor. But it is also a convenient point of view that brushes aside all of the other reasons: crime, pollution, overcrowding, etc.

It is interesting to see all of the posts that reflect the myth that Pattaya is progressing and changing into something it will never be. My guess is that the people who are embracing this view have some interest in real estate.

All I know is that it has turned into a concrete condo city. And most of them appear to be vacant! This, even in the face of all the hype.

As I said before, unless you have 20 or more years of experience here, you really can't understand what has been lost. And a lot of good things have been lost, like it or not.

[Lancelot]

The OP tends to write off the ‘Dark Side’ as ‘a rather depressing, hot, and dusty area’. I can only assume he is referring to the southern end of the Darkside – maybe the Nern Plub Wan, Kow Noi, Kow Talo area as up here, in Pong, nothing could be further from the truth.

I have lived in the Pattaya region for over 7 years and apart from a year that I spent in a condo overlooking the sea in Jomtien, for the rest of the time I have lived near Mabprachan Lake, on the northern end of the Darkside and can state that is neither dusty nor depressing. It also has lower ambient temperatures than downtown Pattaya , with cool mornings and evenings, and lower humidity.

I'm with Mobi, give me the "Dark Side" any time. When you ae feeling frisky, the "Bright Side" is just minutes away

[LennyW]

The OP tends to write off the 'Dark Side' as 'a rather depressing, hot, and dusty area'. I can only assume he is referring to the southern end of the Darkside – maybe the Nern Plub Wan, Kow Noi, Kow Talo area as up here, in Pong, nothing could be further from the truth.

I have lived in the Pattaya region for over 7 years and apart from a year that I spent in a condo overlooking the sea in Jomtien, for the rest of the time I have lived near Mabprachan Lake, on the northern end of the Darkside and can state that is neither dusty nor depressing. It also has lower ambient temperatures than downtown Pattaya , with cool mornings and evenings, and lower humidity.

I'm with Mobi, give me the "Dark Side" any time. When you ae feeling frisky, the "Bright Side" is just minutes away

The "darkside" is for living, the other side is for loving !!

[Tolley]

Whichever way you cut it Pattaya still is a sleazy tourist destination.

Yes there are more families and there are less sexpats but there are still more hookers, massage joints,go go bars etc in Pattaya than anywhere else in the world.

Will it change soon?

Maybe but it will take some time and quite frankly I don't care because there will always be an active nightlife and fun atmosphere about Pattaya.

Pattaya is still being marketed as a party town by Thais and as long as the money is coming in I don't see that changing anytime soon.