Red Shirts Gather At Democracy Monument.

[Thai at Heart]

I seem to remember that the army used the phrase "reboot" to explain the coup last time around. I hope we have an election, but it will be bloody interesting to see what happens if PTP wins or cobbles together a coalition. I know who I would "like" to win (for the good and stability of the country), and I think we can all guess who the "establishment" would like to win. Times have moved on some since 2007, but the Dems couldn't pull of a clean win with the playing field left wide open for them, and we all saw the subsequent mess that the country fell into after that. I don't think that the Dems have made any real in roads into the traditionally pro-PTP areas. Maybe they shoud get rid of compulsory voting and the people can choose not to vote at all to register their disappointment with the entire situation. LOL

PTP looks like it is in a mess right now, but TIT after all. I think it will be a lot closer than some of us think.

The PTP won't "win" (ie get a majority of seats). They didn't last time, and have done worse since then with losses at by-elections and defections.

The Democrats don't need to make any in roads into the pro-PTP areas. There are plenty of other areas where they went close last time that wouldn't take too much to tip them over the line. But they won't get a majority of seats either).

It will ALL come down to who can put together a coalition. The Democrats have it now, but it probably comes down to one man - Newin.

More than likely, a coalition will result as I said with "if PTP win or cobbles together a coalition". I do have a question about how much this shenanigins down on the border may have effected Newin's control of the support down there. Maybe a lot of people have forgotten how he switched sides, although I doubt it. But as for the mess with Cambodia, I wonder if his group will feel any of the fallout from that?

Edited February 15, 2011 by Thai at Heart

[Pi Sek]

Curious for my own info - how many really did show up to the heights of both the 2010 UDD and the 2008 PAD protests? Lots of numbers have been banded about.

I've heard there really were a million Red Shirts demonstrating in Bangkok last year (obviously from Red Shirt sources) and I've also heard as few as 60,000 - I'd hazard a guess at 120,000 at its peak.

I think there were well over 100,000 at Suvarnibhumi, but I've heard much smaller and much bigger numbers.

Where does your last figure come from? The most I'd seen estimated before that is 15,000. I find it hard to believe it was anywhere near 100,000.

Most estimates I've seen suggest there was about 150,000 red shirts at their peak and by the end of the protests the number had dwindled to less than 10,000. Chang Noi seems to agree with a BBC correspondent that it was the biggest Thai protest for decades though:

For a start it has been unsettling for many people because it was simply so big. The crowd did not approach the dreamy promise of a million people, but as the sun-baked BBC correspondent breathlessly exclaimed, it was the biggest political gathering in Thailand for over three decades. This was no small feat given the obstructions. It's not so difficult to stage a rally when attendees only have to change their shirt and take a short taxi hop from the office. The logistics are a lot more difficult and expensive when the rally site is hundreds of kilometres away. Provincial governors were ordered to obstruct the movement of people. Police set up countless checkpoints. Pro-Newin elements in the northeast laid on entertainment and issued threats to deter people from leaving for the capital. The media carried reports about money distributed to protesters to move. None carried reports about the money spent to prevent them moving. Despite all these efforts, downtown Bangkok was a sea of red. The 10-kilometre column from Rajdamnoen to Phaholyothin broke records.

http://www.robinlea.com/changnoi2/deference.htm

I must say, my figure of "well over 100,000" came from denying a belief that a reported figure of 180,000 were present (and, no, I'm sorry I can't remember where I saw this figure). I will categorically state there is no way they numbered as little as 15,000. I've seen a 15,000 crowd and the Suvarnibhumi crowd was more like an FA Cup final sell-out crowd. I've seen those twice

Having said that, weren't there 200,000 stranded tourists? That would be a pretty big crowd in itself, but I doubt they were all wearing yellow shirts with the Thai royal insignia. Given the circumstances, it would surprise me greatly if any were!

Despite my disagreement with Chang Noi in, well, just about everything... I would agree that the Red Shirt protest movement has been the largest protest movement in some time. But actual protesters, slugging it out on the street? I'm not so sure.

Both protests had large numbers of paid protesters, however, especially at the early stages of the UDD one and the later stages of the PAD one. So, that makes it really hard to tell in both cases.

[phiphidon]

You can read Mr Amsterdams address here http://robertamsterd...thailand/?p=579

Much obliged, I should have known to have a look there.

A few quotes, admittedly my selection

It is truly amazing to see that despite all the injustice, the violence, and the slander you have suffered, so many of you still have such faith in the rule of law.

I am honored to work with you to take down a government that finds it easier to kill children, nurses, and journalists than to accept the result of an election.

Firstly, I personally witnessed the horrors in Bangkok last May and was determined to record the carnage. (He probably means PERSONALLY watched videos)

In my work in Russia I have lost friends and seen evildoers go free. And I literally cannot exist in a world where evil goes free.

This is how far I got, strong stomach, but could take no more. Read the rest yourself if you want.

(edit, add from Robert A.: Still, despite the fact that we have clearly established both the jurisdiction of the ICC and the admissibility of the Thai situation, it must be acknowledged that the odds that the case will be taken up by the ICC are low.)

It's a shame that you gave up after reading the bs part - to be expected but worth while trying again from where he get's down to some to some suggestions for reforms i.e Paragraphs 16 -31. From there on he wanders off again in rhetoric but the paragraphs I have mentioned provide food for thought, at least to those with an open mind (and I'm not excluding you from this Rubl - see I got your "name" right at last )

[PeterGriffin]

it is easy to find out that the large majority of the Thai are supporting the red shirts. just ask around randomly. Suggesting it is otherwise is just silly.

A large majority? The PTP won less than 40% of the popular vote in the last election. I guess that some of that 'large majority' supports the red shirts but votes for the Democrats.

Exactly. bravo, sir.

[Pi Sek]

it is easy to find out that the large majority of the Thai are supporting the red shirts. just ask around randomly. Suggesting it is otherwise is just silly.

Please allow me to cordially disagree. I think the vast majority - not large, vast - do not support the Red Shirts. Neither do they support the Yellow Shirts. Is it "silly" to suggest this?

By the way, this is the result of asking around randomly, the method that you suggest. I have done it it in numerous provinces in numerous regions, in numerous dialects of Thai and at different times. I ahve asked the same people twice and got different answers.

From my own personal findings, I have found that many Thais sympathetic to the Red Shirts' purported cause do not support them because they are troublemakers who do not represent those that they claim to represent. This is very different to opinions 4 years ago when, in Udon Thani and Khon Kaen, the Red Shirt line was the standard line - to the point that dissenters were persecuted.

May I ask when and where you obtained your results?

[jayboy]

It's a shame that you gave up after reading the bs part - to be expected but worth while trying again from where he get's down to some to some suggestions for reforms i.e Paragraphs 16 -31. From there on he wanders off again in rhetoric but the paragraphs I have mentioned provide food for thought, at least to those with an open mind (and I'm not excluding you from this Rubl - see I got your "name" right at last )

It's become the default position to criticise Amsterdam rather than deal with the arguments he puts forward.To do so of course would mean abandoning an intellectually slovenly position and start tackling some hard questions.I'm the first to admit that Amsterdam is hardly an attractive personality and that the Thaksin connection weakens his credibility.But that's not enough to dismiss all aspects of his case.There are still some really important outstanding questions on the deaths which took place in Bangkok last year.The military has rejected accountability as it always does.None of the inquiries have lead anywhere.The Government's attitude has been disgraceful,assuming that there is no price to pay.They may have miscalculated.

A respected journalist summarises the position in this Reuters blog

http://blogs.reuters.com/andrew-marshall/2011/02/13/reclaiming-the-truth-in-thailand/

[PeterGriffin]

May I ask when and where you obtained your results?

thank you for pointing out i used the wrong word, i'm not a native speaker.

My results are from the time i've been in Thailand during the last couple of years, talking to the people I meet. I like to talk to the people i encounter, for example those sitting on the same bus, or on a porch. I just noticed that many of them sympathize with the red shirts. even though they do not always believe the red shirts are truly representing them.

[tim armstrong]

Not claiming to know a lot about Thai politics or even wanting to get involved, I have to say i am appalled by the stupidity of the replies in this topic. For everybody, even the drunkards among us farang, it is easy to find out that the large majority of the Thai are supporting the red shirts. just ask around randomly. Suggesting it is otherwise is just silly. Secondly I would like to point you all to the fact that it is never a good thing when the military is interfering with governmental responsibilities regularly, even in a corrupt democracy this is still very dangerous... thirdly, politics in general, even more so in a country like Thailand, is very populistic.

Peter,

What a breath of fresh air. Agree with everything you have said. Unfortunately, much farlang thinking here is even more heavily influenced by the media than in western countries. The language barrier, and the thai custom of not letting foreigners get involved in politics, has also produced some very uninformed analysis by many farlang. But it would also be a mistake to think that democracy in Thailand follows the same principles as elsewhere. Its just now beginning to evolve, and may well be different to ours. To my mind whats happening now is a massive change in thinking not just about politics, but wealth, power, poverty and society as a whole. For the first time in Thailand's history, the population across all income, class and educational levels have had their most cherished beliefs shattered. The 'populist' movement of both urban and farming communities, now have knowledge about their country, that they didn't have on year ago. This has created some fundamental uncertainties about future governance. Whatever else it may or may not have done, the 'populist' agenda has started something, that will transform the country, -quite soon. Precisely how it turns out will be very interesting to see.

[Pi Sek]

That's all well and good, but it doesn't change the fact that the Red Shirt movement is primarily run by the UDD.

What you are talking about, social reform, is not something that has ever been addressed by the UDD (although they do complain about it) and, while the UDD continue to be the main element of promotion within the Red Shirt movement, this will continue to be the case. I've seen an idea banded about on here for a while now: Reds = PTP = Thaksin. I strongly disagree with this. I think UDD = PTP = Thaksin, but I don't think Red Shirts = UDD at all.

Many Red Shirts argue that, just because someone has a degree, they shouldn't be paid more. I would argue that previous investment in one's future should bring a higher return than someone who has not invested in their future, as it means that they are somehow less of a risk to get the job done - whether it's due to education, experience, whatever. Of course, this is open to abuse in Thailand since anyone can buy their degree from any of the universities - one of many similar stories and this open corruption must be addressed before you can address social reform. Thaksin/PTP/UDD want to move back to a more corruption-friendly constitution and seem to believe social reform can be dealt with by throwing cash at villagers. That's one of the root problems, certainly not the fix.

Like those who disagree with me, by the way, I also think that there is a lot of "very uninformed analysis". It seems we all think each other are stupid. This is all over the last 5-8 years. It's almost as if we had been indoctrinated by divisive propaganda on all sides, fed to us by those whom we know to be liars.

[hammered]

The counter's re-set to zero at an election so these recent developments won't count for too much - if anything at all.

If the counter is reset to zero, why did you bring up the results at the last election?

I seem to remember that the army used the phrase "reboot" to explain the coup last time around. I hope we have an election, but it will be bloody interesting to see what happens if PTP wins or cobbles together a coalition. I know who I would "like" to win (for the good and stability of the country), and I think we can all guess who the "establishment" would like to win. Times have moved on some since 2007, but the Dems couldn't pull of a clean win with the playing field left wide open for them, and we all saw the subsequent mess that the country fell into after that. I don't think that the Dems have made any real in roads into the traditionally pro-PTP areas. Maybe they shoud get rid of compulsory voting and the people can choose not to vote at all to register their disappointment with the entire situation. LOL

PTP looks like it is in a mess right now, but TIT after all. I think it will be a lot closer than some of us think.

Many make the mistake of thinking PTP and Dems go head to head in trying to win areas. They dont. Both have their own areas that are largely immune to the other party. What the next election is about is BJT versus PTP in PTP heartlands. BJT has made inroads into PTP heartland. The question is how much and the answer is linked to defections too. The PTP heartlnad is riddled with constituencies where the local feudal family hampster would win standing in the katoey party. That is reality of most rural constituencies. What Thaksin did was assemble an alliance of feudal warlords with shared business interests who were willing to toss some money from center at the rural poor as long as it wasnt their money and didnt affect their feudal base and finally came form their hand. That alliance is now breaking, but to what degree?

[TAWP]

It's become the default position to criticise Amsterdam rather than deal with the arguments he puts forward

No, it is about admitting that he will never read nor contemplate the points we put across and that as a payed propaganda tool he has no interest in being correct, sincere nor balanced.

It would, by all accounts, only be a point to counter his points by those that have the venues to have their replies published in largely the same amount or places that RA pushes his stories. Hardly something many of us here have, so it is a waste of time.

So we jump directly to the truth of what he is.

[tim armstrong]

That's all well and good, but it doesn't change the fact that the Red Shirt movement is primarily run by the UDD.

What you are talking about, social reform, is not something that has ever been addressed by the UDD (although they do complain about it) and, while the UDD continue to be the main element of promotion within the Red Shirt movement, this will continue to be the case. I've seen an idea banded about on here for a while now: Reds = PTP = Thaksin. I strongly disagree with this. I think UDD = PTP = Thaksin, but I don't think Red Shirts = UDD at all.

Many Red Shirts argue that, just because someone has a degree, they shouldn't be paid more. I would argue that previous investment in one's future should bring a higher return than someone who has not invested in their future, as it means that they are somehow less of a risk to get the job done - whether it's due to education, experience, whatever. Of course, this is open to abuse in Thailand since anyone can buy their degree from any of the universities - one of many similar stories and this open corruption must be addressed before you can address social reform. Thaksin/PTP/UDD want to move back to a more corruption-friendly constitution and seem to believe social reform can be dealt with by throwing cash at villagers. That's one of the root problems, certainly not the fix.

Like those who disagree with me, by the way, I also think that there is a lot of "very uninformed analysis". It seems we all think each other are stupid. This is all over the last 5-8 years. It's almost as if we had been indoctrinated by divisive propaganda on all sides, fed to us by those whom we know to be liars.

Pi Sek, you are missing the point. Try to be Thai for a minute, and think AROUND the topic, which is what I was trying to do in the last post, but obviously not well enough. To put it bluntly, what is the one thing that will change Thai society for sure?

[jayboy]

It's become the default position to criticise Amsterdam rather than deal with the arguments he puts forward

No, it is about admitting that he will never read nor contemplate the points we put across and that as a payed propaganda tool he has no interest in being correct, sincere nor balanced.

It would, by all accounts, only be a point to counter his points by those that have the venues to have their replies published in largely the same amount or places that RA pushes his stories. Hardly something many of us here have, so it is a waste of time.

So we jump directly to the truth of what he is.

Confirmation of what I said about the default position.Neither the knowledge, analytical ability or energy to do the hard thinking so takes the intellectually slovenly approach of personal abuse.

Needless to say the points made in the post under reference by Andrew Marshall (Reuters) are simply ignored.

[jesse89]

Needless to say the points made in the post under reference by Andrew Marshall (Reuters) are simply ignored.

Andrew Marshall's overview of the events that occurred in April and May is one of the most concise that I have read. I agree with the sentiment that a greater effort to determine what happened on the Bangkok streets at that time needs to occur. The Thai Government not allowing the families of those who died during the protest to have closure by not properly investigating the incidents that caused the deaths of numerous civilians is deplorable. Particularly the case where the Thai Army and Government are still not accepting any accountability for the actions that led to the deaths of six unarmed sanctuary seekers at Wat Pathum Wanaram, despite mounting evidence against them.

You can say what you want about the bias of Robert Amsterdam (Given who he is paid by clearly he will promote a particular side of the argument), but at least he has tried to investigate and analyze the incidents during the protests in his report he is submitting to the ICC. This is unlike the current Thai Government, whose response to calls for comprehensive inquiries seems to have been limited to "We did nothing wrong and the army killed no civilians".

[Buchholz]

30 remanded red shirts demand help on bail applications

A group of 30 remanded red shirts on Tuesday circulated an open letter calling attention to their detention despite the government's pledge to grant bail.

"Some 104 red shirts are still in jail facing charges relating to the violations of emergency rule even though they should have been releases since they are not primary suspects," the letter said.

As representative of the group, Phayao Akhad lodged the letter with the Department of Rights and Liberties tasked to facilitate the bail applications of the red shirts.

-- The Nation 2011-02-15

[hyperdimension]

Why didn't the 30 red shirts ask Thida for some cash? She had a bag of 21M THB recently to try to bail out her husband and his friends. A "United Front" indeed.

Isn't it ironic that they are pleading for cash from the very people that they despise, and not from the leaders whom they worshipped and risked their lives for?

Edited February 15, 2011 by hyperdimension

[Buchholz]

Why didn't the 30 red shirts ask Thida for some cash? She had a bag of 21M THB recently to try to bail out her husband and his friends. A "United Front" indeed.

They want the government they were attacking to help bail them out and not the help of the organization they were representing to attack the government.

[rubl]

Needless to say the points made in the post under reference by Andrew Marshall (Reuters) are simply ignored.

Andrew Marshall's overview of the events that occurred in April and May is one of the most concise that I have read. I agree with the sentiment that a greater effort to determine what happened on the Bangkok streets at that time needs to occur. The Thai Government not allowing the families of those who died during the protest to have closure by not properly investigating the incidents that caused the deaths of numerous civilians is deplorable. Particularly the case where the Thai Army and Government are still not accepting any accountability for the actions that led to the deaths of six unarmed sanctuary seekers at Wat Pathum Wanaram, despite mounting evidence against them.

You can say what you want about the bias of Robert Amsterdam (Given who he is paid by clearly he will promote a particular side of the argument), but at least he has tried to investigate and analyze the incidents during the protests in his report he is submitting to the ICC. This is unlike the current Thai Government, whose response to calls for comprehensive inquiries seems to have been limited to "We did nothing wrong and the army killed no civilians".

Robert A. tried to invstigate and analyze, but I doubt to uncover the truth. more like anything which can be used in his case. Th value of that diminishes with the wild accusations he also makes. May I call it 'a possible misuse of logic and a collection of statements which are seemingly given extra value by grouping them without a formal proof of relation.'

[bulmercke]

The counter's re-set to zero at an election so these recent developments won't count for too much - if anything at all.

If the counter is reset to zero, why did you bring up the results at the last election?

Call a general election and the pointers will swing to where they were at the last election OR worse for the Democrats. 165 seats compared to PPPs 233.

[whybother]

The counter's re-set to zero at an election so these recent developments won't count for too much - if anything at all.

If the counter is reset to zero, why did you bring up the results at the last election?

Call a general election and the pointers will swing to where they were at the last election OR worse for the Democrats. 165 seats compared to PPPs 233.

Of course they will. That's what happens at every election. That's why the results are always the same.

[bulmercke]

Needless to say the points made in the post under reference by Andrew Marshall (Reuters) are simply ignored.

Andrew Marshall's overview of the events that occurred in April and May is one of the most concise that I have read. I agree with the sentiment that a greater effort to determine what happened on the Bangkok streets at that time needs to occur. The Thai Government not allowing the families of those who died during the protest to have closure by not properly investigating the incidents that caused the deaths of numerous civilians is deplorable. Particularly the case where the Thai Army and Government are still not accepting any accountability for the actions that led to the deaths of six unarmed sanctuary seekers at Wat Pathum Wanaram, despite mounting evidence against them.

You can say what you want about the bias of Robert Amsterdam (Given who he is paid by clearly he will promote a particular side of the argument), but at least he has tried to investigate and analyze the incidents during the protests in his report he is submitting to the ICC. This is unlike the current Thai Government, whose response to calls for comprehensive inquiries seems to have been limited to "We did nothing wrong and the army killed no civilians".

This is correct. The government is continuing to obfuscate - muddy - and delay investigations into the deaths of innocent Red-Shirt supporters.

Robert Amsterdam has - in the main - chronicled accurately - and with supporting testimony and evidence - the murderous actions of the Abhisit government these last two years.

[bulmercke]

The counter's re-set to zero at an election so these recent developments won't count for too much - if anything at all.

If the counter is reset to zero, why did you bring up the results at the last election?

Call a general election and the pointers will swing to where they were at the last election OR worse for the Democrats. 165 seats compared to PPPs 233.

Of course they will. That's what happens at every election. That's why the results are always the same.

whybother - I admire your confidence in the Democrat vote. Do you honestly believe for one moment that the Democrats will improve on their performance at the last election?

Considering that Isaan and ordinary Reds everywhere are still outraged over the events of last May I would think that any shift in the vote has to benefit Pheu Thai.

[whybother]

This is correct. The government is continuing to obfuscate - muddy - and delay investigations into the deaths of innocent Red-Shirt supporters.

Robert Amsterdam has - in the main - chronicled accurately - and with supporting testimony and evidence - the murderous actions of the Abhisit government these last two years.

I particularly like the accurate testimony of Witness 22.

1. I am a resident of Bangkok, Thailand. I am making this statement anonymously because I am afraid to give my real name for fear that the Thai government will retaliate against me. Consequently, some of the information contained in this statement is intentionally vague, but this is not because I lack knowledge of the facts, but because if I were more specific about certain events it would identify me, placing my life in grave danger. I am disclosing as much information as I safely can.

2. My first language is Thai. However, although this statement is prepared in English, it has been translated for me, and its contents are accurate.

3. I am a well-placed active duty officer in the Royal Thai Army. My position has allowed me to acquire extensive and detailed information about the official response to the Red Shirt movement, including the planning and execution of military operations against Red Shirt demonstrators.

The Statement of Anonymous Witness No. 22 is an amalgamation of testimony provided by a number of active-duty officers in the Royal Thai Army.

The first 3 points don't sound very accurate to me. Why didn't they just say in the "witness" statement that it was something that was cobbled together?

[bulmercke]

This is correct. The government is continuing to obfuscate - muddy - and delay investigations into the deaths of innocent Red-Shirt supporters.

Robert Amsterdam has - in the main - chronicled accurately - and with supporting testimony and evidence - the murderous actions of the Abhisit government these last two years.

I particularly like the accurate testimony of Witness 22.

1. I am a resident of Bangkok, Thailand. I am making this statement anonymously because I am afraid to give my real name for fear that the Thai government will retaliate against me. Consequently, some of the information contained in this statement is intentionally vague, but this is not because I lack knowledge of the facts, but because if I were more specific about certain events it would identify me, placing my life in grave danger. I am disclosing as much information as I safely can.

2. My first language is Thai. However, although this statement is prepared in English, it has been translated for me, and its contents are accurate.

3. I am a well-placed active duty officer in the Royal Thai Army. My position has allowed me to acquire extensive and detailed information about the official response to the Red Shirt movement, including the planning and execution of military operations against Red Shirt demonstrators.

The Statement of Anonymous Witness No. 22 is an amalgamation of testimony provided by a number of active-duty officers in the Royal Thai Army.

The first 3 points don't sound very accurate to me. Why didn't they just say in the "witness" statement that it was something that was cobbled together?

You know - as well as I - that if the identities of these active-duty officers were revealed they would probably be as good as dead in a very short time - such is the nature of the Thai military. What goes on in the military stays in the military. At least - court-marshaled. At worst - summary executions.

[whybother]

whybother - I admire your confidence in the Democrat vote. Do you honestly believe for one moment that the Democrats will improve on their performance at the last election?

Considering that Isaan and ordinary Reds everywhere are still outraged over the events of last May I would think that any shift in the vote has to benefit Pheu Thai.

I actually believe that they will. That's not just my hope, but what I see from results of by-elections, results of polls and from general hearsay.

I don't doubt that the Isaan and ordinary reds everywhere are still outraged. But were they ever going to vote Democrat? Peau Thai won those seats last time and they will probably win them again, although the BJT won one off them in a by-election recently.

It's the other areas that I think the Democrats will do better (but nowhere near well enough to win a majority). The red areas are outraged with the Democrats, and the non-red areas are outraged with the red shirts.

The PTP are leaderless (except for Thaksin of course). There are defections every couple of weeks. They also won some seats last time by small margins (outside of red areas). That's where I see it being most dangerous for PTP and favouring the Democrats.

I think the PTP will lose quite a few seats, mostly to BJT. The Democrats will pick up a few more, but probably not too many.

It will all come down to the coalition parties, and at the moment the coalition parties are supporting the Democrats.

That's not to say that the coalition parties won't jump ship. I don't think anyone can predict what Newin will do.

[whybother]

You know - as well as I - that if the identities of these active-duty officers were revealed they would probably be as good as dead in a very short time - such is the nature of the Thai military. What goes on in the military stays in the military. At least - court-marshaled. At worst - summary executions.

But why the act to make it sound like one persons statement? They could have said the same thing with out the first 3 points. By doing that and then admitting it was cobbled together surely puts into question the rest of the statement.

[hyperdimension]

The government is continuing to obfuscate - muddy - and delay investigations into the deaths of innocent Red-Shirt supporters.

Robert Amsterdam has - in the main - chronicled accurately - and with supporting testimony and evidence - the murderous actions of the Abhisit government these last two years.

You ignore the fact that some of the protesters that were attacking the army were heavily armed.

You claim that the Abhisit government performed "murderous actions" as if they had ordered a massacre. There would have been far more than 100 deaths if that were true, as there were thousands of protesters present. You also ignore the "murderous actions" of the violent protesters who killed Colonel Romklao and other officers.

You are sounding a lot like Robert Amsterdam himself, so it's no surprise that you find his writings "accurate" despite his obviously indiscreet bias. I even wonder whether he laughs whilst writing for his client, as much of his emotive words and phrases are poetically farcical. e.g. the few lines that rubl quoted:

You can read Mr Amsterdams address here http://robertamsterdam.com/thailand/?p=579

Much obliged, I should have known to have a look there.

A few quotes, admittedly my selection

It is truly amazing to see that despite all the injustice, the violence, and the slander you have suffered, so many of you still have such faith in the rule of law.

I am honored to work with you to take down a government that finds it easier to kill children, nurses, and journalists than to accept the result of an election.

Firstly, I personally witnessed the horrors in Bangkok last May and was determined to record the carnage. (He probably means PERSONALLY watched videos)

In my work in Russia I have lost friends and seen evildoers go free. And I literally cannot exist in a world where evil goes free.

This is how far I got, strong stomach, but could take no more. Read the rest yourself if you want.

(edit, add from Robert A.: Still, despite the fact that we have clearly established both the jurisdiction of the ICC and the admissibility of the Thai situation, it must be acknowledged that the odds that the case will be taken up by the ICC are low.)

Edited February 15, 2011 by hyperdimension

[hyperdimension]

Why didn't the 30 red shirts ask Thida for some cash? She had a bag of 21M THB recently to try to bail out her husband and his friends. A "United Front" indeed.

They want the government they were attacking to help bail them out and not the help of the organization they were representing to attack the government.

It's almost like plotting to kill someone, getting jailed for attempted murder, then requesting bail money from the very person (or the family of the person) whom you tried to kill.

Edited February 15, 2011 by hyperdimension

[phiphidon]

Robert A. tried to invstigate and analyze, but I doubt to uncover the truth. more like anything which can be used in his case. Th value of that diminishes with the wild accusations he also makes. May I call it 'a possible misuse of logic and a collection of statements which are seemingly given extra value by grouping them without a formal proof of relation.'

With respect Rubl, you can call it what you like, but Amsterdam has provided more information than anything I have seen from the government, whether you agree with it or not. What I have seen from the government is delay, conjecture and misinformation with no real interest in investigating what happened in the months of April/May and certainly no real attempt at reconcilliation.

[rubl]

Robert A. tried to invstigate and analyze, but I doubt to uncover the truth. more like anything which can be used in his case. The value of that diminishes with the wild accusations he also makes. May I call it 'a possible misuse of logic and a collection of statements which are seemingly given extra value by grouping them without a formal proof of relation.'

With respect Rubl, you can call it what you like, but Amsterdam has provided more information than anything I have seen from the government, whether you agree with it or not. What I have seen from the government is delay, conjecture and misinformation with no real interest in investigating what happened in the months of April/May and certainly no real attempt at reconcilliation.

You're right in the sense that the government has not been really open. Mind you I wouldn't have expected much else, this being Thailand, face issues, etc., etc. Mea culpa is a Christian thing, not Buhdist.

The problems I have with Robert A.'s report are the insinuations, 'I've seen it', witness 22 an amalgamation of statements. All this diminishes the value to near zero in my eyes. The grain of truth is drowned in a sea of non-truths.

Edited February 15, 2011 by rubl