Falang, 2Nd Class Citizens?

[SlyAnimal]

hmm......

Government wise, yes we're not necessarily treated well. But we're not citizens and the government doesn't want to have the entire country sold/overrun by westerners. It's their country, they can run it how they want.... if they ran it like a western country, it'd probably not be as cheap to live here, then we'd goto Cambodia or Laos instead lol.

As far as Thai people are concerned..... I think that there's 2 different types of Thai people.

Money Magnets - They generally live in the touristy/farang areas, see soo many westerners who are on holiday for 1-2 weeks and thus consider westerners to have more money than sense. Because they can't imagine how someone could spend soo much money soo quickly. These Thai people really don't have any respect for us, the only respect they have is for the money which we thus provide. Also I think the more westerners that Thai people have encountered, the more likely they are to have a negative opinion of us, as there really are some arrogant tourists who treat the locals with a true lack of respect, thus ruining what the locals think of us all.

Everyone else - Everyone else in the country judges us on our own merits, or perhaps even treats farang a little better than everyone else even. If you're finding that the "Everyone else"'s of Thailand are treating you with a lack of respect. Then I can only suggest that you look at how you've been treating them. As they do judge you on your merits, or lack thereof :-P

I'm living in a small city now, and I've find that 99% of people fall into the "Everyone else" Category, and I have quite a few good Thai friends as a result.

However I have definitely felt that I'm treated worse by people in the more touristy areas.

Edit: Interesting about the origin of Farang, I personally thought that they just thought we were similar to Guavas, since we have white skin similar to the flesh of guavas (And perhaps we sold / brought Guavas aswell). And thus they called us the same.

Edited February 21, 2011 by SlyAnimal

[TimTang]

...I can't comment on British pronuncaition because I'm from London so I don't find it strange in the least...

You hit the nail on the head! You're exactly right; we become so accustom to our own accents that it becomes second nature and we're not really aware of how we sound to others.

Just for example; I remember talking to an Australian English teacher, and he was pulling his hair out, because he couldn't get the students to say "NO". He went on to explain that they keep saying "NOI". I had to break it to him that when he say's "NO" it actually sounds kinda' like "NOI" to me too.

If you listen closely to an Aussi saying "NO", it's like they start of with "NAH" and then they raise their jaw a bit with their lips still open horizontally, to end the word which sounds more like an "I" than an "O". If your going to end the word "NO" your lips should be shaped in a circle as if you were whistling. He was shocked when I said this (and not angry; fortunately for me because he was a lot bigger than I am) because he never noticed that before. I told him to say "NO" and whistle immediately at the end of the word. He could immediately tell the difference and was using both versions within minutes. The only thing I'm worried about is that he may have been ostracized by his fellow countrymen because of the weird way he says "NO".

I don't mean to insult Australians, I love their accent. I'm just trying to point out how complex the physics (lips, teeth, tongue, jaw, even the nose) of a single word can alter how it sounds.

Edited February 21, 2011 by TimTang

[IanForbes]

Sorry but the first part of your post is completely irrelevant. Central Thai does not offer the latitude afforded to English speakers when it comes to vowel pronunciation and consonants are pretty fixed too. You would never encounter the wide differences in pronunciation in Thailand that you do in the UK and other countries. Whether you think I am anal-retentive or not is besides the point. A reasonable grasp of the Thai language would be enough for anybody to understand that it cannot be compared to English in this respect.

Farang, farung, farong, falang, falung, falong...It's certainly pointless arguing over the correct transliteration as there is no way to accurately reflect Thai sounds with the Latin / Roman alphabet. The "a" sounds in the word are both the same for a start, so if you want to substitue a U or an O for the As then you should do it for both letters. It is roughly between an A and a U really....certainly not an O...not to most peoples ears anyway.

I needn't say any more about anal retentive then. You've already demonstrated it succinctly enough. :lol:

I think you have ably demonstrated that you have a very limited knowledge of the Thai language so there's really no point discussing it with you. If you've nothing to add apart from repeating your previous insult, as if you somehow think that name calling proves your point, then why bother posting at all? It only makes you look as if your debating skills were honed in the school playground and have never been improved upon since.

Now let me see if I have this correct. The OP asked a thought provoking question and was asking for advice from people who MIGHT know more than himself...

The original question on this topic was...

The other day i was talking to a falang bar owner about thai/falang relations and he said the thai's look at us like we look at the muslim community in our own country and that we are 2nd class citizens.I have only been to Thailand three times totalling 7 months and the bar owner lives here but later when i was back at my apartment i thought is this really true?

Other than a common mistake made by newcommers to Thailand (myself included and was subsequently corrected by the spelling nazis) The OP didn't ask for a correct pronunciation of the word/term "farang" . He wanted an honest opinion about what Thais thought about foreigners. He didn't ask about how to spell an English translation of the Thai language. Had he asked that then this debate would have been valid. But, those who like to show off how much more they know about Thailand than others the whole topic got side tracked.

Only the anally retentive really care whether someone says farang with a rolling "r' or another person says falong, or falang. Who really gives a shit if everyone understands what you are saying? If I think my advice might help someone without offending others then I'll send a private message in a way that doesn't offend them.

You folks sound like my brother who corrects me if I say "That's a really big boat!" and he will reply by saying... "NO, that's NOT a boat. It's a large commercial vessel"

[TimTang]

"NO, that's NOT a boat. It's a large commercial vessel"

He's right! It's a large commercial vessel. Now be a good boy and listen to your big brother. He knows best.

[inthepink]

Now let me see if I have this correct. The OP asked a thought provoking question and was asking for advice from people who MIGHT know more than himself...

The original question on this topic was...

The other day i was talking to a falang bar owner about thai/falang relations and he said the thai's look at us like we look at the muslim community in our own country and that we are 2nd class citizens.I have only been to Thailand three times totalling 7 months and the bar owner lives here but later when i was back at my apartment i thought is this really true?

Other than a common mistake made by newcommers to Thailand (myself included and was subsequently corrected by the spelling nazis) The OP didn't ask for a correct pronunciation of the word/term "farang" . He wanted an honest opinion about what Thais thought about foreigners. He didn't ask about how to spell an English translation of the Thai language. Had he asked that then this debate would have been valid. But, those who like to show off how much more they know about Thailand than others the whole topic got side tracked.

Only the anally retentive really care whether someone says farang with a rolling "r' or another person says falong, or falang. Who really gives a shit if everyone understands what you are saying? If I think my advice might help someone without offending others then I'll send a private message in a way that doesn't offend them.

You folks sound like my brother who corrects me if I say "That's a really big boat!" and he will reply by saying... "NO, that's NOT a boat. It's a large commercial vessel"

I completely agree that the discussion about the transliteration and pronunciation of the word farang has nothing to do with the OP but it is hardly unusual for threads to drift off-topic. I specifically said that it does not matter how the word is spelt in English and that both pronunciations being discussed were fine. if you actually read my posts you would therefore see that my opinion does not differ from yours.

I only replied to your post because you used an example (a certain London accent being unintelligible to you) to try and illustrate the point that languages have wide variations in the way that they are spoken. Well, Central Thai can in no way be compared to English in this respect and if you were proficient in Thai you would be aware of this fact. However, rather than be a man and admit that you have no idea what you are talking about, you decided to repeat your childish insult and add a couple of laughing smilies...I presume to indicate how smart and funny you thought your inane comment was.

I can understand that the pronunciation of the word holds no interest to you but I don't understand why you bothered to post your opinion if you find the subject so dull. My answer had nothing to do with trying to prove how much I know. It just so happens that I do know more than you about the Thai language (as do many others) and I was pointing out the error in your comparison. I made the mistake of assuming you were mature enough to be able to deal with people knowing more than you about certain subjects without throwing your toys out of the pram. I should have known from your anal-retentive comment that you were not. I apologise for making the wrong assumption.

[IanForbes]

"NO, that's NOT a boat. It's a large commercial vessel"

He's right! It's a large commercial vessel. Now be a good boy and listen to your big brother. He knows best.

:lol:

Actually, he's my little brother, but he's a perfectionist... and other people are expected to be perfect as well.

[IanForbes]

I completely agree that the discussion about the transliteration and pronunciation of the word farang has nothing to do with the OP but it is hardly unusual for threads to drift off-topic. I specifically said that it does not matter how the word is spelt in English and that both pronunciations being discussed were fine. if you actually read my posts you would therefore see that my opinion does not differ from yours.

I only replied to your post because you used an example (a certain London accent being unintelligible to you) to try and illustrate the point that languages have wide variations in the way that they are spoken. Well, Central Thai can in no way be compared to English in this respect and if you were proficient in Thai you would be aware of this fact. However, rather than be a man and admit that you have no idea what you are talking about, you decided to repeat your childish insult and add a couple of laughing smilies...I presume to indicate how smart and funny you thought your inane comment was.

I can understand that the pronunciation of the word holds no interest to you but I don't understand why you bothered to post your opinion if you find the subject so dull. My answer had nothing to do with trying to prove how much I know. It just so happens that I do know more than you about the Thai language (as do many others) and I was pointing out the error in your comparison. I made the mistake of assuming you were mature enough to be able to deal with people knowing more than you about certain subjects without throwing your toys out of the pram. I should have known from your anal-retentive comment that you were not. I apologise for making the wrong assumption.

:lol:

Congrats on the well written insult. :jap: It's been a fun debate and I'll bow to your greater knowledge of the Thai language, and with no offence intended.

But, you DID concede that the original topic was taken far off course. If we had wanted to debate the reasons behind the word "farang" then that should have been a topic on its own merit.

I just find it a bit annoying when people go on a completely different tangent to an original topic that DOES have some merit. Some like to take everything as a racial issue when there is no valid reason to do so.

[TimTang]

"NO, that's NOT a boat. It's a large commercial vessel"

He's right! It's a large commercial vessel. Now be a good boy and listen to your big brother. He knows best.

:lol:

Actually, he's my little brother, but he's a perfectionist... and other people are expected to be perfect as well.

OK! Point taken. Doesn't it pi$$ you off when your younger siblings excel in intelligence and awareness? Dare to be mediocre! In my next life I'll be extremely intelligent as well (I can only hope). In the mean time I'll just have to absorb and learn from the knowledge and advice of others that exceed my intelligence.

[TimTang]

But, you DID concede that the original topic was taken far off course. If we had wanted to debate the reasons behind the word "farang" then that should have been a topic on its own merit.

I just find it a bit annoying when people go on a completely different tangent to an original topic that DOES have some merit. Some like to take everything as a racial issue when there is no valid reason to do so.

Actually that was MY fault not his. So if you have any ad hominem insults feel free to direct them towards me. I'm the one that steered the forum off topic due to my own selfish interest in languages.

[TimTang]

OK! If there are people out there that are upset that the forum has gone astray, I'll set things back on track.

First of all, how can we quantify our citizenship when we are not citizens to begin with? I think close to 100% of the people participating on the TV forums maintain a NON-IMMIGRANT visa. What does that mean? It means you are a non-immigrant visitor to the country and you are not a citizen. To ask the question "do you feel like a second class citizen" is redundant. You could be expelled from the country at any time for any reason they see fit, so don't even dream about the possibility that you are somehow a citizen.

If you feel that you are somehow treated unfairly by the populous at large, that's a different matter all together. If you feel that the government and the immigration department are treating you in a disrespectable manner that's a different matter as well.

The original OP topic is redundant. The fact that it took on a life of it's own is the beauty of the internet. :jap:

[Tatsujin]

The original OP topic is redundant. The fact that it took on a life of it's own is the beauty of the internet. :jap:

The fact that it took on a life of it's own is a reflection of the amount of time TV posters in general have to sit on here and their continual desire to complain about anything and everything

As the previous poster mentioned, we are not 1st, 2nd, 3rd class anything . . . we are visitors whether you like it or not. If the topic was more accurately titled as "Are Thai's Racist/Nationalistic/Insensitive (pick your own)" then that would have been more accurate with the direction of this whole topic.

Edited February 21, 2011 by Tatsujin

[ELCata]

I agree with you on the mis-transliteration done by Thais. A couple examples would be "Singha" beer and "Suvarnabhumi" airport. If you pronounce these words as they are written in English they would be completely wrong in Thai. The "ha" at the end of "Singha" is silent but there is no way for an English speaking person to be aware of that unless they've been informed by someone knowledgeable in the language, still, most foreigners pronounce it that way. "Suvarnabhumi" is actually pronounced "su-waan-na-poom", again you would never know unless you were told. There is no equivalent consonant in the Thai language that sounds like "V" yet Thais always use it when a "W" would be more appropriate.

I think part of the problem with 'suvarnabhumi' is that Thai is actually transliterated into German! Obviously the German language doesn't have a 'w' sound so it is transliterated into a 'v'. There is the usual 'b/p' problem, although doesn't 'bh' indicate a released 'b'? I don't know what's going on with the 'i' at the end.

I'll have to look further into that, but another example which I know more about is the Laotion capital Vientiane, which is actually pronounced 'Wien Chan'. For historical reasons Lao uses the French transliteration system. The French similarly don't have a 'w' sound & the closest sound to 'ch' is 'ti'. Finally the 'e' is added at the end so that the final 'n' sound is not lost.

I find it hard to believe that you would ever hear a Thai say "FA-RANG" (as in - he RANG the bell). I haven't had my ears checked for years but when I hear a Thai say this word, to me it sounds like "FA-LUNG" (as in I have cancer in my left LUNG). Maybe I do need a hearing test!

The 'mai hun aagaat' is supposed to sound like the 'u' in cup or but, but is often transliterated as 'a'. No matter how hard I try, I always hear the 'a' sound.

I guess it depends on how trained your ear is. I can hear the 'g' in an unaspirated 'k', but this one has me stumped.

[Tatsujin]

With regards to the use of falang/farang (or however you want to spell it or pronounce it) in my experience it is not used in a derogatory way at all in most cases. The Thai's that I know that use the word simply use it to differentiate between Thai's and non-Thai's WITHOUT any negative or derogatory connotations, it's just a "word" that is used.

Yes, of course, there are times when it IS and CAN be used in a derogatory or negative way (as can any word that is used to describe someone from another race), but I don't believe that the majority of Thai's use it in this way in every day life.

If people are upset about the word, then perhaps it's down to US to change the association they believe comes with it by giving the Thai's a better opinion of the foreigners that come here by behaving in a better way and not just being thought of as beer-drinking, girl-chasing <deleted>.

Just my thoughts

[pjclark1]

I guess I stand corrected. I got the French story from a on-line Thai language learning site; I don't know where they got their info from. Actually it does make more sense. Thais have difficulty with compound consonants used in English, for example the word "smart" is split into "sa-mart", so "frank" would become "fa-rank". Given the fact that Thais almost never end a word with a consonant (mew for milk) it's not a far stretch that it would become "fa-rang". Also, in French rang (like tank) would be more like rong or rung, and I don't dare get into the "R" thing. That scenario seems to more believable.

You really need to learn to read Thai before you make any assumptions about Thai reading rules which are many and varied

For example "smart" is read as "sa-mart" because Thai letter saw sua preceding Thai letter maw maa produces an implied vowel of "a" between the 2 letters.

Raw rua has various rules (depending on the first letter) for use as a second letter in a compound

these include, being silent, changing a "T" to an "S", indicating an implied vowel "aw" ........ but never heard of it producing an implied vowel "a"

The best I can get out of a Thai person for pronouncing Frank, is Frank (lady says FR is OK for a compound consonant, but her view is suspect as she speaks English well)

As for Thais never ending words with a consonant, ridiculous, such words are spoken in every Thai sentence, Tur, Jur, etc.

[pjclark1]

I think part of the problem with 'suvarnabhumi' is that Thai is actually transliterated into German! Obviously the German language doesn't have a 'w' sound so it is transliterated into a 'v'. There is the usual 'b/p' problem, although doesn't 'bh' indicate a released 'b'? I don't know what's going on with the 'i' at the end.

I'll have to look further into that, but another example which I know more about is the Laotion capital Vientiane, which is actually pronounced 'Wien Chan'. For historical reasons Lao uses the French transliteration system. The French similarly don't have a 'w' sound & the closest sound to 'ch' is 'ti'. Finally the 'e' is added at the end so that the final 'n' sound is not lost.

'suvarnabhumi' is a Sanskrit sentence (meaning "Golden Land" or "entrance to the Golden Land") transliterated into Thai, hardly surprising the pronunciation bears no resemblance to the written word.

Edited February 22, 2011 by pjclark1

[SlyAnimal]

The French Story makes a lot of sense, more than the Frank story imo.

Since French in Thai is ฝรั่ง เศส which is basically Farang Seet, and Farang is ฝรั่ง in Thai, which would make sense that over time the word was just shortened to Farang (And applied to every white person).

French / France is the only nationality which has ฝรั่ง at the start of the name in Thai I think, so it's not a sorta generic prefix for foreign countries either.

I'm sure a Cambodian friend I had years ago told me that the Khmer word for westerners was the same as the word for French too. But it was a long time ago, so I'm not 100% on that.

[notime]

Suvarnabhumi or Suwanapoom .. I still like So-wanna-boom boom the most. Sorry, off topic :-)

As to the OP I also feel being treated as 2nd or 3rd class human here, as we are not citizens of course. This has not as much to do with the altitude of most Thais, who may even look up or respect Falang if not for anything else for the money they master, but with an official stand. No rights, no land, always wrong when confronted with Thai, need to report where I live to police (?), being called "Alien" in all official papers, not having a stable visa/PR after investing lot's of money and living here for 5 years. I know this is Thailand and they have the right to make any laws in respect of foreigners they want. But I don't think Thailand gains much by ostracizing foreigners living here or who would come and could contribute a lot more of valuable knowledge and skill. Maybe nationalism is just used by the elites here to keep everything under their control including keeping people uneducated, ignorant about the world, poor and enslaved?

[CrossBones]

As a non Thai citizen you do not have the rights of a Thai citizen. You cant get 30 baht medical care, cant own land and you have to have residency to stay in the country without needing visas. So you are not a Thai citizen at all.

This is pretty normal wherever you go in the world.

As so far as being second/third/low class.. i dont think this is the issue. Working, Middle, High class farangs will get on well if they are nice people. Good Thai people can see if you have "good heart" and they will treat you well if you treat them well. Some Thai people dont like us at all, which is fair enough everyone to have their opinion, you cant expect everyone to like you.

A lot of people in government jobs like giving us the run around, with visas and stuff like that, just smile and wai and get on with it and then stick your fingers up at them behind their back.

Wear a smile on your face when you can, it goes a long way. Be respectful to locals and if you dont like someone or they dont like you just try to avoid them.

Dont listen to bar owners and a lot of these really "messed up" farangs you meet here. It is their attitude which makes them third class and unwanted here, some people just dont get it.

[Tatsujin]

Wear a smile on your face when you can, it goes a long way. Be respectful to locals and if you dont like someone or they dont like you just try to avoid them.

Dont listen to bar owners and a lot of these really "messed up" farangs you meet here. It is their attitude which makes them third class and unwanted here, some people just dont get it.

Well said

[JPPR2]

My 2 cents to the OP, Why be does it matter. In the end treat others as you want to be treated and it is usually reciprocated. Why spend the time to determine where you are in the society ladder? That is such a strange thing to do. All it does is label to generalize then people will start with the chastising.

In the end, we are all human beings. I personally think "class" is based on behavior............

[MAJIC]

Does anyone here know the meaning of the term... anal retentive? It fits perfectly into this conversation.

I sat on a ferry to Koh Samui one day and listened to 3 tourists talking no more than 2 meters away. It wasn't until we almost reached the island that I realized they were English. It turns out they were Cockney Brits from London. You can't get any more English than having been born from white parents living in London. But, not one of the blokes could be understood... unless of course you were ALSO a Brit from that part of London. Now, compare that to this conversation about the so called mispronunciation of the word "farang" as being "falong" and it explains clearly the meaning of the term... anal retentive.

A black, African American can say his friend (white or black) "Hey niggah" and it's used in endearing terms. But, if some white stranger says the same thing it is a racial slur.

That is no different than hearing a Thai call a white person a farang... or more appropriately... falong. I listen to Thais all the time and can't recall the last time I hear "farang". But, I hear "falong" all the time, and it comes from school kids, teachers, tuk tuk drivers, and every other class of Thai. I can't believe that they are ALL using the term as a slur. Which brings me back to the anal retentive people here.

Falong?thats a new slant on an old theme, never heard it in all my years in Thailand,you sure its not your hearing?

[Jingthing]

I think the Thai word normally romanized as farang is so commonly used now in any English literature referring to Thailand that in this rare case, the romanization has become standardized to the point where there indeed is a correct romanization. That would be FARANG.

If you don't believe me, open up one of hundreds or even thousands now of published English language books and novels with content referring to Thailand. It is ALWAYS farang. Any editor, professional or amateur would always correct any other spelling to be FARANG. Period. End of story.

Next ...

Edited February 22, 2011 by Jingthing

[coolhandjoe]

Thailand is ethnocentric. Not as bad as Japan or Korea but still ethnocentric. Most foreigners come here wearing their culture like a turtle wears a shell some even come from other countries like Australia and the US to impose their values on Thai society in a legal sense and arrest Thais for violating Australian and American laws. NGO's and do gooder governments just can't seem to leave Thailand alone. Thailand deported hundreds of Hmong people back to Laos because they remembered when the Hmong were responsible for heroin smuggling and production. The US and all the other Western nations including the UN went ballistic. Thailand didn't care. The same with the recent refugees sent out to sea to die. There is good and bad in the country. It would be nice to only talk about the good and accept the good and somehow change the Thais to eliminate the bad and to conform to western culture.

Even rich educated Thais believe in ghosts and make offerings to inanimate objects. Is it silly? It is part of Thailand. If you are sick in a government hospital the Thai person will be treated before the Falang given equal sickness. In some cases, if you make it on the inside of a Thai family or government institution you will be treated better than Thai people and given a god like status.

For example if you learn how to dance Thai dances and do so at a country concert you will be treated like a rock star. If you do something out of character, like being honest in a business transaction the Thai person will never forget.

The ethnocentrism works both ways. Thais don't expect loyalty or heroism from non Thais. If you show Thai people loyalty and or heroism they will grant you a larger status than a Thai person.

The door swings both ways. It is very difficult for most western people to understand the nuances of Thai culture when they conflict with long held western belief systems.

Excellent post :jap:

[bermondburi]

I think the Thai word normally romanized as farang is so commonly used now in any English literature referring to Thailand that in this rare case, the romanization has become standardized to the point where there indeed is a correct romanization. That would be FARANG.

If you don't believe me, open up one of hundreds or even thousands now of published English language books and novels with content referring to Thailand. It is ALWAYS farang. Any editor, professional or amateur would always correct any other spelling to be FARANG. Period. End of story.

Next ...

who gives a fuc_k !

really ?

[samran]

I think the Thai word normally romanized as farang is so commonly used now in any English literature referring to Thailand that in this rare case, the romanization has become standardized to the point where there indeed is a correct romanization. That would be FARANG.

If you don't believe me, open up one of hundreds or even thousands now of published English language books and novels with content referring to Thailand. It is ALWAYS farang. Any editor, professional or amateur would always correct any other spelling to be FARANG. Period. End of story.

Next ...

Just don't forget to roll those R's there jingers, lest you end up sounding like bargirl trailer park trash. In fact, why not conduct a survey on it?

[61guitarman61]

I think the Thai word normally romanized as farang is so commonly used now in any English literature referring to Thailand that in this rare case, the romanization has become standardized to the point where there indeed is a correct romanization. That would be FARANG.

If you don't believe me, open up one of hundreds or even thousands now of published English language books and novels with content referring to Thailand. It is ALWAYS farang. Any editor, professional or amateur would always correct any other spelling to be FARANG. Period. End of story.

Next ...

who gives a fuc_k !

really ?

Sure it's not "pherlawng"? Ask a Thai to spell it some time. As with most English transliterated terms, there is no phoneme in Thai for many of the sounds we make and thus no spelling coming from Thai to English either so spelling is open to wild subjection. You choose how you want to spell it. doesn't matter. Like he said...... who cares..........

Edited February 23, 2011 by 61guitarman61