Red Shirt Leader Jatuporn Fails To Convince

[Ricardo]

As Democrats didn't stop it, didn't change the Law about BUYING VOTES(ridiculous - if you ask me), so all is possible. It's not so much of(his) money-as an investment. Also, i would not bet that he would not have some foreign support for elections.

Vote buying is already illegal isn't it? That's why the PPP got disbanded.

What law needs to be changed?

It is not. The recent survey(published by Bangkok Post) said around 40% of people in survey said will accept the money for vote. So, obviously that still going on as habit. That is opening another question-as you posted- but it is(for me) obvious that disbanding was political, tactical manouver, just for instant use, to eliminate the oponents(but that is another topic and i would not elaborate that more)

The poll showed that the ordinary voters still think vote-buying is common-place, and acceptable, but I'm not sure how changing the law can change that attitude ? I wish that it could ! If the Democrats "didn't stop it, didn't change the Law", as you suggest, then exactly the same applies to the two previous PPP-led coalition-governments since the last election, by-the-way.

No, what is slowly changing the situation, and making the candidates slightly more honest/careful, is the way the Electoral-Commission has been forcing specific elections to be re-run, with the original corrupt vote-buyers still-standing but paying for the new vote, or with the corrupt vote-buyers banned, regardless of which party they come from. It is thus seen to apply the same new higher-standard to all.

It is also encouraging that, when a whole party or its executive-board are acting in a corrupt way, the whole party has been dissolved. This tends to make party-members/candidates focus more on what their leaders are doing, in their name, which might later bring punishment from the E.C.

The E.C. has been taking effective-action for several years now, and one can only hope and trust, that this will continue to discourage political-corruption, to some extent. Hopefully the E.C. will continue to get support in this, from both enlightened-voters and governments in-power, and there should be no more threats against individual E.C.-members, or demonstrations at their offices.

[stepenwolf1958]

Legality of buying votes is out of the question. My point was that buying votes still going on.

Your logic is severely flawed. Peoples opinion says nothing about the legality.

Legality of buying votes is out of the question. My point was that buying votes still going on.

[Robby nz]

It is not. The recent survey(published by Bangkok Post) said around 40% of people in survey said will accept the money for vote. So, obviously that still going on as habit. That is opening another question-as you posted- but it is(for me) obvious that disbanding was political, tactical manouver, just for instant use, to eliminate the oponents(but that is another topic and i would not elaborate that more)

60% said that they accept corruption. Does that mean corruption is legal?

People speed in cars. People don't use helmets. Legal?

Generally agree with you. All your words are telling about something abnormal in society.

But...

You said: "60% said that they accept corruption.Does that mean corruption is legal?:

*** It is not legal as buying votes is not legal but should the Government stay calm and accept it as mai pen arai? I think not. Some act, some law against it, the government should to bring. I guess the most right address would be to put it in Law about the election.

You said: "People speed in cars. People don't use helmets. Legal?" Not legal, for sure but this is incomparable.

As Yet there has been no election since PPP were banned for buying votes.

In order to see if there is any improvement, IE, stricter policing of the electrolal laws, an election needs to take place.

Once that has happened we will see if either side has attempted to, or got away with vote buying.

Regardless of the percentage who said they accept corruption, note not vote buying in particular, there is much more awareness now.

While in the past it may have been accepted as the way things were done I suspect attitudes are now changing and we will see this reflected in the coming election.

[Robby nz]

Legality of buying votes is out of the question. My point was that buying votes still going on.

Your logic is severely flawed. Peoples opinion says nothing about the legality.

Legality of buying votes is out of the question. My point was that buying votes still going on.

How do you know that?

There have been a couple of By elections and there was never any questions of vote buying raised after them, by either side.

If you have inside info to prove your statement then you should contact the Election Commission.

Edited February 27, 2011 by Robby nz

[animatic]

Let see:

He is whining because a private, non-public conversation, between people is reported publicly against their wishes and is construed, by some, possibly to be lese majesty, but this potential LM action of spoken word was never WILLINGLY done in public, and was never intended to be public, so where is the intent of the speakers?

Another instance of Wikileaks causing un-needed problems and unintended consequences.

This is not a discussion of LM law or anyones intent,

but just noting that there is not a case to be made.

Jatuporn is just hammering at the usual people he hammers,

at and logic is not part of his reasoning.

If reasoning can be attributed to this social brute.

Edited February 27, 2011 by animatic

[whybother]

Generally agree with you. All your words are telling about something abnormal in society.

But...

You said: "60% said that they accept corruption.Does that mean corruption is legal?:

*** It is not legal as buying votes is not legal but should the Government stay calm and accept it as mai pen arai? I think not. Some act, some law against it, the government should to bring. I guess the most right address would be to put it in Law about the election.

You said: "People speed in cars. People don't use helmets. Legal?" Not legal, for sure but this is incomparable.

"Incomparable" ???

As someone else pointed out - your logic is flawed.

You are saying because people are doing it, then it must be legal, so the laws need to be changed.

But it is already illegal. People are just breaking the laws.

[animatic]

It only becomes legal if:

a ) People's representatives do not make laws making it illegal

b ) People's representatives vote to make it legal if it wasn't before.

A public opinion poll stating that 60% accept it as normal,

has no bearing at all on if a legislative vote, plebiscite vote

or court decision determined it's legality

Edited February 27, 2011 by animatic

[TAWP]

Legality of buying votes is out of the question. My point was that buying votes still going on.

Your logic is severely flawed. Peoples opinion says nothing about the legality.

Legality of buying votes is out of the question. My point was that buying votes still going on.

So what laws needs to be amended?

[yoshiwara]

Jatuporn like others is part of a parliamentary beauty parade to impress Thaksin that they are of the right stuff to lead. The topic is irrelevant as is any position taken by Jatuporn which in this case tangled itself in knots. The only issue to win is whether Jatuporn or any other erstwhile red leader can beat the democrats in parliamentary debate. The fatal flaw is that they don't have a sound position on anything other than that which paves the way for the return of Thaksin. No wonder they keep messing up.

[Skywalker69]

A Buffalo is a Buffalo even if you dress him in a suit!

[stepenwolf1958]

Legality of buying votes is out of the question. My point was that buying votes still going on.

Your logic is severely flawed. Peoples opinion says nothing about the legality.

Legality of buying votes is out of the question. My point was that buying votes still going on.

How do you know that?

There have been a couple of By elections and there was never any questions of vote buying raised after them, by either side.

If you have inside info to prove your statement then you should contact the Election Commission.

And that will change anything? I doubt it. But give them a chance. I hope will be no more.

[stepenwolf1958]

Generally agree with you. All your words are telling about something abnormal in society.

But...

You said: "60% said that they accept corruption.Does that mean corruption is legal?:

*** It is not legal as buying votes is not legal but should the Government stay calm and accept it as mai pen arai? I think not. Some act, some law against it, the government should to bring. I guess the most right address would be to put it in Law about the election.

You said: "People speed in cars. People don't use helmets. Legal?" Not legal, for sure but this is incomparable.

"Incomparable" ???

As someone else pointed out - your logic is flawed.

You are saying because people are doing it, then it must be legal, so the laws need to be changed.

But it is already illegal. People are just breaking the laws.

I never said if people are doing something(even bad) that it is legal. I was clear about it, i think you may understand that bad thing is still going on. In my opinion, not any law will stop them as they are to deep in doing it for decades.

[stepenwolf1958]

Legality of buying votes is out of the question. My point was that buying votes still going on.

Your logic is severely flawed. Peoples opinion says nothing about the legality.

Legality of buying votes is out of the question. My point was that buying votes still going on.

So what laws needs to be amended?

If they have the Law about election, that might be a good place to prohibit buying votes. I am not informed do they have that law at all.

[whybother]

I never said if people are doing something(even bad) that it is legal. I was clear about it, i think you may understand that bad thing is still going on. In my opinion, not any law will stop them as they are to deep in doing it for decades.

You started off this conversation by saying that the government hadn't put into law something to stop paying for voting. You based that on a survey that people would accept payments to vote.

That indicates that your reasoning is: that people do it (or would do it), so there must not be a law against it. In other words, people do it, so it must be legal.

Do you still think that the government needs to change the law to stop people doing it, or do you think that maybe, people should just obey the law?

[scorecard]

60% said they accept corruption.

Well this is a good example of how the reporting of polls in Thailand never reveals real insight.

The facts are that the poll quoted, and many others, indicates that a large percentage of Thais believe that you can't stop corruption and as long as it's not out of control you just live with it as a reality of life.

Hopefully one day the majority of Thais will get more serious but that's not going to be tomorrow.

My adult Thai son tells his friends and uni colleagues that he dosn't accept corruption at all, all Thais should be fighting for zero corruption. His friends / colleagues laugh at him, because they belive it's impossible to totally stop it. That doesn't stop my son, he keeps saying 'zero corruption'.

[scorecard]

Why is it the press here don't go after Jatuporn for all of his lies?

He seems to get a free pass from the English speaking media here. They print all of his tripe 'revelations' but never call him on all of his lies and false promises.

It appears he is protected to some extent.

This article doesn't even attempt to scratch the surface.

Good point, but the truth is that there are basically no investigative journalists in Thailand because it's simply too dangerous.

[Ricardo]

If they have the Law about election, that might be a good place to prohibit buying votes. I am not informed do they have that law at all.

"I am not informed" just about sums it up ... what law do you think the Electoral Commission attempts to enforce ? How can they ban an MP, or force the re-run of an election in his constituency, except through the law ?

[oldsailor35]

Personally, knowing Thais as i do, i find it unbelievable that any Thai would be unloyal to the throne. The way i feel is that any political person accusing another member from another party of being disloyal to the throne is only just trying to gain "brownie points" and should be condemned for this by all sides of parliament.

Edited February 27, 2011 by oldsailor35

[oldsailor35]

The Pheu Thai Party stands a good chance of winning the next election, meaning Jatuporn stands a good chance of taking a major Cabinet post.

That statement should get the Dems a lot of votes.

God help the country if that ever happens.

Then there are the other 7 heroes of the revelution, would we see them in cabinet posts as well?

Now there is a quiz For you:

What cabinet posts would the eight of them be best suited for?

Me, I already have one down as minister of prisons, plenty of inside knowledge.

"God help the country if it ever happens" I guess it all depends on which side you support, if you are a yellow supporter ( as you obviously are) then you would have to say what you have. If you were a Red shirt supporter (which you obviously aint) then you would think and say the opposite.

[oldsailor35]

God has nothing with it. It's the MONEY. As we could saw a million times.

Do you think Thaksin will be able to buy PTP enough votes to get them back in power?

Oh dear Robby, you are in a bad way !................................EVERY bugger in Thailand buys votes some way or another , wake up mate !

[oldsailor35]

Wait, what law are they supposed to 'change'?

To stop political parties buying votes in election. Maybe there is not any Law about it so to be changed but in that case some Law to prohibit that - should to be made. It is not. So again in elections we will see how much in Thailand "money talks" in elections.

Why are you under the impression that there isn't already election laws regarding vote buying?

But, who is buying the army ?

[oldsailor35]

PT doesn't really need to buy votes, they would probably win 30-35% of the vote without buying a single vote. Buying votes might get them another 3 - 5% of the vote, still not enough to win a majority outright. Where they will need to spend money will be in buying the support of two or more of the smaller parties. As the election day comes closer, PT & the Democrats will almost certainly be in a bidding war for the support of the smaller parties. Whichever one makes the sweetest offer, be it money or cabinet positions or pork-barrel projects, will win.

There is also the case of trust. Only Thaksin can make binding promises on behalf of PT. No doubt the small party leaders will be wondering if they can trust him to keep those promises. After all, they betrayed hem by abandoning his coalition once, he might very well want revenge.

I expect the Banharn, Newin and the head of Pua Pandin will be making discrete trips abroad (to Dubai) in the near future for these negotiations.

Yes well ! the Democrats bought some smaller parties did'nt they. Just look at who holds top positions .

[oldsailor35]

It is not. The recent survey(published by Bangkok Post) said around 40% of people in survey said will accept the money for vote. So, obviously that still going on as habit. That is opening another question-as you posted- but it is(for me) obvious that disbanding was political, tactical manouver, just for instant use, to eliminate the oponents(but that is another topic and i would not elaborate that more)

60% said that they accept corruption. Does that mean corruption is legal?

People speed in cars. People don't use helmets. Legal?

Generally agree with you. All your words are telling about something abnormal in society.

But...

You said: "60% said that they accept corruption.Does that mean corruption is legal?:

*** It is not legal as buying votes is not legal but should the Government stay calm and accept it as mai pen arai? I think not. Some act, some law against it, the government should to bring. I guess the most right address would be to put it in Law about the election.

You said: "People speed in cars. People don't use helmets. Legal?" Not legal, for sure but this is incomparable.

As Yet there has been no election since PPP were banned for buying votes.

In order to see if there is any improvement, IE, stricter policing of the electrolal laws, an election needs to take place.

Once that has happened we will see if either side has attempted to, or got away with vote buying.

Regardless of the percentage who said they accept corruption, note not vote buying in particular, there is much more awareness now.

While in the past it may have been accepted as the way things were done I suspect attitudes are now changing and we will see this reflected in the coming election.

Dont see much chance of electoral laws being enforced when regarding Democrats. Just consider all that electoral money that they recieved and hid and then got away with it. If that had been any other party, it would have been 'curtains' for sure.

[jayjay0]

PT doesn't really need to buy votes, they would probably win 30-35% of the vote without buying a single vote. Buying votes might get them another 3 - 5% of the vote, still not enough to win a majority outright. Where they will need to spend money will be in buying the support of two or more of the smaller parties. As the election day comes closer, PT & the Democrats will almost certainly be in a bidding war for the support of the smaller parties. Whichever one makes the sweetest offer, be it money or cabinet positions or pork-barrel projects, will win.

There is also the case of trust. Only Thaksin can make binding promises on behalf of PT. No doubt the small party leaders will be wondering if they can trust him to keep those promises. After all, they betrayed hem by abandoning his coalition once, he might very well want revenge.

I expect the Banharn, Newin and the head of Pua Pandin will be making discrete trips abroad (to Dubai) in the near future for these negotiations.

Yes well ! the Democrats bought some smaller parties did'nt they. Just look at who holds top positions .

And the PT didn't buy smaller parties? If you are going to use a accusation be honest about it.

[animatic]

"Propaganda does not deceive people; it merely helps them to deceive themselves."

"A dissenting minority feels free only when it can impose its will on the majority: what it abominates most is the dissent of the majority."

"Charlatanism of some degree is indispensable to effective leadership."

"An empty head is not really empty; it is stuffed with rubbish. Hence the difficulty of forcing anything into an empty head."

Eric Hoffer

Edited February 27, 2011 by animatic

[rubl]

Dont see much chance of electoral laws being enforced when regarding Democrats. Just consider all that electoral money that they recieved and hid and then got away with it. If that had been any other party, it would have been 'curtains' for sure.

Consider providing a few more details rather than just saying 'money they received and hid'. Thank you.