Innocents In Thai Prisons, How Does It Usually Happen?

[Jingthing]

There are many things here not quite kosher and the police are a good example I could list them but dont have a few hours to spare, I think you are still linked in with a Western mind set, still we all love it here.

Proudly so. Why not? I'm not Thai and I can't even get permanent residence here. I enjoy living in Thailand but that doesn't mean becoming something I ain't.

[mstribling]

Western mind-set? What would you expect of a Westerner? Western men who claim to be " dialed in" to the Asian mindset are silly.

I love living here, as do we all. I'll assimilate, to a point, but I ain't sellin' out.

Back on topic.

[newsite12]

i cant beleive all these confessions you see on Thai news and crime reconstuction the so called criminals go through, imagine in a western countries saying yes i did i reinacting the crime before it even gets to court. must be a reason for that. does not give the defense lawyer much to work on

There are 2 kinds of confession.... The kind that is beaten out of someone, and the kind that is beaten 'into' someone.

[mca]

I can accept anything up to 5% error............such is the lottery of life.

Unless it's you.

Edited March 17, 2011 by mca

[gpdjohn]

There are two types of "innocents":

1- innocents who did nothing wrong all their life

2- "innocents" who are innocent of the crime they were done in for, but live a criminal life otherwise (i.e. known drug dealers, rapists, etc.)

I have no problem with category #2 sometimes going to prison for crimes they didn't commit. And the real culprit would probably be punished for some other stuff anyway...

So, no big damage here.

What I am really concerned about is category #1.

Who has examples of cases where allegedly innocent "good people" were found guilty by the Thai judicial system and imprisoned or executed?

I do.

My brother in law, Thai, is currently serving 29 years in a Thai prison.

Long, long story.. but will put it in a nutshell.

BIL worked as a glass maker ( lab glass ) for a older thai woman for several years. After marrying my sister in law and having a few kids, he decided he would strike out on his own. He is good at what he does. The older woman employer knowing how good he is, told him that if he leaves her company she will bring charges that he had stolen formula's etc. She told him she knew it was untruthful, but in order for him not to be a potential threat to her business, she would spend no expense to shut him down, whatever means necessary.

Move ahead 1 year... we are living in CM and this is going on in BKK.

Thai court formally charges him with 27 counts of theft and he has to respond. Off to court he goes with my uncle, a Thai lawyer ( he's the #3 guy in the Narcotics Control Board, an office in Govt House, lawyer type trips back n forth to the USA to meet with his counterparts in the USDEA.. a respected guy in the Thai legal circles by all means) After several court sessions, some legal haggling and sidebar trips from the womans attorney to the judges chambers.. 1 more court hearing to determine guilt/sentencing. My uncle pleads with my BIL to not go to court on that day..actually tells him that her lawyer has paid off the judge and he's gunna get bent over. Done deal. The money is in the judges pocket.."please don't go" he tells him.."give me time to fix it".

BIL dosent listen and struts into court. " Guilty" the judge says and then sentences him to 29 years. 29 years!

The woman ( who has since died ) reportedly paid a very large sum to the judicary to make it happen. My uncle has told me the correct amount, but that's not for here. ( I'm currently back in the US, will return in a few months and want to live a longer life, so will remain tight lipped on that..)

We are hoping for a Kings pardon this year.

Bottom line.. he did nothing legally wrong except to leave his former employment. No, he did not steal any formula's, etc. He just became a business threat.

And like MCA said responding to the "i can accept anything up to a 5% error"... unless it's you.

Believe me..it sucks.

[stander]

Several posters have state “what if it was me”, that’s a nonsense argument, if ,if ,if………if my aunt had balls she would be my uncle…….

You win some, you lose some,it’s the lottery of life

Edited March 17, 2011 by stander

[happyrobert]

In the States, even the Federal Government - Justice Department - figures show approximately 10% of those in prison are not guilty of the crimes for which they were convicted. The figure could be higher in jails. (Jails are one year or less sentences, prisons one year or more.)

Much of these convictions are due to the plea bargain system that is widely used. As a cop, I saw many, many times defendants who were not guilty be offered a "bargain" to avoid going to trial where they could plead to a lesser crime and get lesser sentences. (Yes, yes, I know, all you super smart TV members would never plead guilty to a crime you did not commit. But, 1. These convicted are not the brightest bulbs in the box and they come equipped with public defenders, who are about as useless as tits on a boar hog; and, 2. yes, you might if you have had evidence falsified against you.)

Worse, and with far more emotional pressure, and which should be banned, are were those go through a trial and, while the jury is in deliberations, the prosecutor comes and says, take 5 years in prison now, or if the jury comes back guilty, go for 20 years. The pressure can be enormous as they are typically given 15 minutes to decide after being blindsided with the offer.

Also, there are the "eyewitnesses" who are also the truly guilty, already convicted of a crime and awaiting sentencing, who are offered reduced sentences if they will testify against the innocent. Cops and prosecutors use this all the time, and it should be banned.

Many other reasons. A lengthy doctoral thesis could be written on this. Not that it would change anything. Bottom line, it's all about money and power.

And, yes, there are a substantial number of crooked cops in the States, too. They often do it for different reasons, such as to clear a high profile case, or for the same reasons - money, but just cost more.

Hey, at least the cops in Chiang Mai didn't arrest some poor innocent sucker and toss him in prison for the deaths at the Downtown Hotel, just to close the case! (At least, not yet!)

Edited March 18, 2011 by happyrobert

[happyrobert]

Several posters have state "what if it was me", that's a nonsense argument, if ,if ,if………if my aunt had balls she would be my uncle…….

You win some, you lose some,it's the lottery of life

Judging from the responses to your comments, looks like you are "Stander alone" in your opinion!

However, unlike some lower levels of uncouth, foul mouth, self-righteous posters (we all know their names), since I possess great self-esteem, I will not criticize your opinion in a childish manner such as theirs. You certainly have a right to it, no matter how uninformed!

Edited March 18, 2011 by happyrobert

[Wallaby]

I hear your frustration Jingthing.

I prefer a system where a lot of the guilty are set free because of reasonable doubt as opposed to a system a little less stringent that finds many innocents in jail.

Whilst I'm sure there are innocents in jail here in oz it is also quite diffucult to get a conviction because all 12 jurors must find the person either guilty or not guilty. There is no majority rule. If it isn't all 12 agreeing then the prosecution has to decide, in the interests of justice to both the victim and the accused whether it is worth having a retrial. Usually, for the minor crimes it will go a second time but after that they would usually just discontinue it.

I would hate to be wrongly accused and have my fate determined by a majority instead of 100%. I suppose they use the 'all 12' verdict to ensure it is actually 'beyond reasonable doubt'. Though there have been calls for a jury verdict to be accepted at 11-1. I'm not against that.

I'm sorry I can't directly answer your question and, like you, even if it was just 1 innocent person in jail, it would be 1 too many for the unlucky person.

Not quite right.......Judges can take a majority of 11-1 in Oz, obviously a 12-0 is preferred. I have personally seen this occur as a court worker on Jury trials.

Remember too that if the jury gets it right 95% of the time......That means less than 5% of people in jails are innocent, some get suspended sentences etc... but it also means that 5% that should be in jail are back on the streets.

Well I'll be battered on both sides. I worked for the DPP for 4 years in the early 90's. Now I find out that in about 2005 whilst I was happily overseas they went and changed the verdict system. Apologies and thank you.

And as I said, I can live with that.

Edited March 18, 2011 by Wallaby

[carmine]

Several posters have state “what if it was me”, that’s a nonsense argument, if ,if ,if………if my aunt had balls she would be my uncle…….

You win some, you lose some,it’s the lottery of life

I did'nt. I said "if it was a member of your family", your mother, daughter for example. You did'nt answer me.

People like you that use terms like "you win some you lose some" when discussing life inprisonment of an innocent just amaze me. How did you become this way?

[Chivas]

I imagine if you were to ask the inmates you would find that 90% are innocent, but in reality it’s probably more like 1%. The answer you will never know because of the system of justice here.

Sorry you'll find the figure around 15% innocent

[473geo]

Several posters have state "what if it was me", that's a nonsense argument, if ,if ,if………if my aunt had balls she would be my uncle…….

You win some, you lose some,it's the lottery of life

I did'nt. I said "if it was a member of your family", your mother, daughter for example. You did'nt answer me.

People like you that use terms like "you win some you lose some" when discussing life inprisonment of an innocent just amaze me. How did you become this way?

Because you don't sweat the stuff you cannot change.........and as we all agree.....sad though it is.......no system is perfect

[pauljones]

With the reputation of Thai Police, I guess 50% or more prisoners may have been set up.

Thailand_rule by law...not....rule of law.

[smokie36]

Are there really innocent people in prison?

It's impossible to come up with anything accurate with regards to how many "innocent persons" are in prison.

The victims' of crime are the ones we should care about and not the fact that there "maybe" a few erroneous cases.

That's completely illogical. Are not those 'few erroneous cases' also victims of a crime?

Let's say for arguments sake there is rate 5% of erroneous cases, therefore 95% are exactly where they should be, now that to me is a pretty good ratio.

As to whether the 5% of erroneous cases are victims, yes they are victims of circumstances, but no system is perfect and I for one can live with that.

The major flaw in the Thai system is time spent on remand not counting against eventual sentencing. This encourages the innocent to plead guilty.

Cheaper I guess....but an infringement of human rights in my view.

Edited March 20, 2011 by smokie36

[carmine]

Are there really innocent people in prison?

It's impossible to come up with anything accurate with regards to how many "innocent persons" are in prison.

The victims' of crime are the ones we should care about and not the fact that there "maybe" a few erroneous cases.

That's completely illogical. Are not those 'few erroneous cases' also victims of a crime?

Let's say for arguments sake there is rate 5% of erroneous cases, therefore 95% are exactly where they should be, now that to me is a pretty good ratio.

As to whether the 5% of erroneous cases are victims, yes they are victims of circumstances, but no system is perfect and I for one can live with that.

The major flaw in the Thai system is time spent on remand not counting against eventual sentencing. This encourages the innocent to plead guilty.

Cheaper I guess....but an infringement of human rights in my view.

That a good point you've made. I don't think though that human rights are so much of an issue here.

[smokie36]

The major flaw in the Thai system is time spent on remand not counting against eventual sentencing. This encourages the innocent to plead guilty.

Cheaper I guess....but an infringement of human rights in my view.

That a good point you've made. I don't think though that human rights are so much of an issue here.

Clearly not.

[stander]

Several posters have state "what if it was me", that's a nonsense argument, if ,if ,if………if my aunt had balls she would be my uncle…….

You win some, you lose some,it's the lottery of life

I did'nt. I said "if it was a member of your family", your mother, daughter for example. You did'nt answer me.

People like you that use terms like "you win some you lose some" when discussing life inprisonment of an innocent just amaze me. How did you become this way?

What if, what if , what if, what if, what if, I mean you could go on forever

When people start using the “what if” argument, that’s a sure sign that they are losing.

Yes you win some, you lose some, that’s the lottery of life, you may not like it, but that’s the way it is.

Edited March 20, 2011 by stander

[carmine]

Several posters have state "what if it was me", that's a nonsense argument, if ,if ,if………if my aunt had balls she would be my uncle…….

You win some, you lose some,it's the lottery of life

I did'nt. I said "if it was a member of your family", your mother, daughter for example. You did'nt answer me.

People like you that use terms like "you win some you lose some" when discussing life inprisonment of an innocent just amaze me. How did you become this way?

What if, what if , what if, what if, what if, I mean you could go on forever

When people start using the “what if” argument, that’s a sure sign that they are losing.

Yes you win some, you lose some, that’s the lottery of life, you may not like it, but that’s the way it is.

OK, don't answer my question then.

[stander]

Several posters have state "what if it was me", that's a nonsense argument, if ,if ,if………if my aunt had balls she would be my uncle…….

You win some, you lose some,it's the lottery of life

I did'nt. I said "if it was a member of your family", your mother, daughter for example. You did'nt answer me.

People like you that use terms like "you win some you lose some" when discussing life inprisonment of an innocent just amaze me. How did you become this way?

What if, what if , what if, what if, what if, I mean you could go on forever

When people start using the "what if" argument, that's a sure sign that they are losing.

Yes you win some, you lose some, that's the lottery of life, you may not like it, but that's the way it is.

OK, don't answer my question then.

What if my mother, sister or brother were to fall fowl of the justice system and that's your best shot at this argument.

But let's see if I can answer, well if they did fall fowl, then they must have been in the wrong place at the wrong time, but I would do whatever to help, if however they were guilty then they would have to do their time.

But then again "what if" my sister had balls, and then she would be my brother, right.

Also "what if" last year I had got all six lottery numbers instead of just three, what if.

People who go through life constantly "what ifing" are clearly loser.

[carmine]

The only one STANDER that is saying "what if" is you by way of your limp response to my question.

I think i have proved my point.

Have a nice day.

[stander]

The only one STANDER that is saying "what if" is you by way of your limp response to my question.

I think i have proved my point.

Have a nice day.

Whatever or is it what if?