Pirates Free Thai Ship For US$5 Million

[webfact]

Pirates free Thai ship for $5 million

MOGADISHU, April 12, 2011 (AFP) - Somali pirates on Tuesday said they received a ransom of five million dollars to release the MV Thor Nexus, a Thai cargo vessel hijacked on December 25 last year.

"The ship was freed yesterday afternoon. The pirates had received five million from the owners the previous day," Abdi Yare, a pirate commander in the central Somali coastal town of Hobyo, told AFP.

"Our colleagues in Puntland had taken this ship a few months ago... It was released from Eel Dhanaane and it is now sailing free," Yare said.

Eel Dhanaane is a small village which lies between the pirate lairs of Hobyo and Garaad, further north.

The 20,377-tonne MV Thor Nexus was on its way from Bangladesh to the United Arab Emirates with a crew of 27 from Thailand and a cargo of fertiliser when it was captured.

According to Ecoterra International, an NGO monitoring maritime activity in the region, Somali pirates still hold more than 40 vessels which have been confirmed hijacked and around 700 seafarers.

The group says several others ships, mainly small fishing vessels, are missing and believed to have been captured.

-- (c) Copyright AFP 2011-04-12

[MSingh]

I thought most people were under US orders of not paying ransoms ??

[RickBradford]

Don't expect any help from the Brits.....

When a Royal Navy warship captured a crew of Somali pirates, it seemed like a rare chance to strike back at the ruthless sea gangsters. The 17 outlaws were armed with an arsenal of AK 47s and rocket-propelled grenades, and had forced hostages on a hijacked fishing vessel to work as slaves for three months.

But instead of bringing them to justice, the British servicemen were ordered to provide the pirates halal meals, medical checks, cigarettes – and in one case even a nicotine patch – before releasing them in their own boats.

[lannarebirth]

None of the little bit of information we've been provided sounds right. Speaking as a Master Of Ships who can command any ship of any size, on any ocean, I'm calling bullshit on this story.

[LaoPo]

Information about Somali priacy is often one-sided.

There are many cooperating navies from countries and combination of nations: the USA, the EU and countries like Japan, China, India and others, figthing piracy, off the Somali coast, incuding secret operations by submarines who stay "below" for long periods and assist the navies, pointing them at pirate ships.

Many pirate attempts to capture vessels are disrupted by all these combining efforts (and not even reported about) but the area is huge and not so easy to fight all of them since the pirates also capture smaller fishing trawlers who than act as motherships for smaller groups of pirates.

IMO all the combining navy forces/countries should create an African prison, guarded by multi-national forces where those pirates can be locked for many years, doing hard labor.

Taking them into western prisons cost a lot more and that's why many countries hesisate to take them to their respective countries, also because local laws prohibit so.

One of the main problems is also that Somali has no official government (anymore or in place).

Next.............western nations are more "human" than these dead poor teams of pirates, often forced to buy their weaponry from the lords and sent to sea, lured by those lords that they can make a lot of money. The pirates themselves are not the brains bwhind those operations.

It's the big guys who are most wanted but the area/country is so huge....easier said than done to take them out.

http://www.eunavfor.eu/press/news/

LaoPo

[LaoPo]

None of the little bit of information we've been provided sounds right. Speaking as a Master Of Ships who can command any ship of any size, on any ocean, I'm calling bullshit on this story.

..I'm puzzled what you mean...? Care to elaborate?

LaoPo

[saakura]

I thought most people were under US orders of not paying ransoms ??

You mean to say that USA has 'ordered' most people (countries) not to pay ransom? I do not understand under what regulation can US issue such orders to other sovereign nations? As i know it, at present, in such situations (where pirates have been successful in a hijacking), it is left upto the ship owner to deal with it. Naval forces of several nations patrolling the pirate infested Gulf of Aden waters act only to prevent hijackings with some notable exceptions like france and US who have attacked pirated ships and freed hostages. At present, there is a resolution in the UN (likely to be passed next week) which makes it mandatory for the governments of the member states to deal with the pirates of hijacked ships instead of leaving it to the shipping company.

[saakura]

None of the little bit of information we've been provided sounds right. Speaking as a Master Of Ships who can command any ship of any size, on any ocean, I'm calling bullshit on this story.

Just what does not sound right Sir?? There is a lot of information about the hijacking of Thor Nexus since last so many months. Can you kindly elaborate?

[LaoPo]

I thought most people were under US orders of not paying ransoms ??

You mean to say that USA has 'ordered' most people (countries) not to pay ransom? I do not understand under what regulation can US issue such orders to other sovereign nations? As i know it, at present, in such situations (where pirates have been successful in a hijacking), it is left upto the ship owner to deal with it. Naval forces of several nations patrolling the pirate infested Gulf of Aden waters act only to prevent hijackings with some notable exceptions like france and US who have attacked pirated ships and freed hostages. At present, there is a resolution in the UN (likely to be passed next week) which makes it mandatory for the governments of the member states to deal with the pirates of hijacked ships instead of leaving it to the shipping company.

1. "ship owners", in combination with the cargo owners. It happens that the cargo is worth more than the vessels and that the cargo owners pay the ransoms, not (just) the ship owners.

2. That's incorrect; see the link of EU Navfor* where you can find a lot of news and that other nations (besides France and the US) do their piece of capturing pirates also and NOT just preventing attacks; Next to that, India, China, Japan and other nations do their bit of work too and capture pirates as well.

http://www.eunavfor.eu/press/news/

LaoPo

Edited April 12, 2011 by LaoPo

[chuckd]

I thought most people were under US orders of not paying ransoms ??

You mean to say that USA has 'ordered' most people (countries) not to pay ransom? I do not understand under what regulation can US issue such orders to other sovereign nations? As i know it, at present, in such situations (where pirates have been successful in a hijacking), it is left upto the ship owner to deal with it. Naval forces of several nations patrolling the pirate infested Gulf of Aden waters act only to prevent hijackings with some notable exceptions like france and US who have attacked pirated ships and freed hostages. At present, there is a resolution in the UN (likely to be passed next week) which makes it mandatory for the governments of the member states to deal with the pirates of hijacked ships instead of leaving it to the shipping company.

The US government can not 'order' another government not to negotiate with pirates or anybody else.

His comment was a troll post and you bit.

[reason1]

Makes me wonder what it takes to get a NATO attack; someoneshould ask Gaddafi how he managed it and if could he help get NATO to attack Somalipirates.

[dunkin2012]

Ain't right.... Easy money...

Next time , they will do it again..... and if they will ask for $M10 then....

[TimeBandit2]

"Our colleagues in Puntland had taken this ship a few months ago.."

Puntland. The land of Punters.

[BaronCasey]

I think that all nations should take a lead from the way that the Russian Navy deals with these Pirates when they come across them - very, very, brutally. According to some media sources, when patrolling Russians identify offshore (in international waters) Pirates, they simply raid it for verification, and then just eliminate the boat and it's crew - I am led to understand, that old international sea laws, when bent a little , still permit this line of action. In contrast, the British Royal Navy, upon finding Pirates, sink their boat and guns, but return the crew, unharmed, to Somalian waters. During which time, the 'prisoners' are fed, watered, and given ciggaretes to keep them quiet. The philosophy being, don't antagonise these Pirates because they may start taking (Islamically justified) retribution on future hostages, and to date, hostages have been treated reasonably well in general. Personally, as a Brit, I preffer the Russian method. And I imagine most Brit's do too.

[LaoPo]

I think that all nations should take a lead from the way that the Russian Navy deals with these Pirates when they come across them - very, very, brutally. According to some media sources, when patrolling Russians identify offshore (in international waters) Pirates, they simply raid it for verification, and then just eliminate the boat and it's crew - I am led to understand, that old international sea laws, when bent a little , still permit this line of action. In contrast, the British Royal Navy, upon finding Pirates, sink their boat and guns, but return the crew, unharmed, to Somalian waters. During which time, the 'prisoners' are fed, watered, and given ciggaretes to keep them quiet. The philosophy being, don't antagonise these Pirates because they may start taking (Islamically justified) retribution on future hostages, and to date, hostages have been treated reasonably well in general. Personally, as a Brit, I preffer the Russian method. And I imagine most Brit's do too.

Any links...proof..articles of what you claim?

LaoPo

[endure]

I think that all nations should take a lead from the way that the Russian Navy deals with these Pirates when they come across them - very, very, brutally. According to some media sources, when patrolling Russians identify offshore (in international waters) Pirates, they simply raid it for verification, and then just eliminate the boat and it's crew - I am led to understand, that old international sea laws, when bent a little , still permit this line of action. In contrast, the British Royal Navy, upon finding Pirates, sink their boat and guns, but return the crew, unharmed, to Somalian waters. During which time, the 'prisoners' are fed, watered, and given ciggaretes to keep them quiet. The philosophy being, don't antagonise these Pirates because they may start taking (Islamically justified) retribution on future hostages, and to date, hostages have been treated reasonably well in general. Personally, as a Brit, I preffer the Russian method. And I imagine most Brit's do too.

Any links...proof..articles of what you claim?

LaoPo

Of course not. 'According to some media sources' - 'I am led to understand' and other nonsensical nonsense. One thing in this thread is obvious - there are VERY few posters in it who've ever been to sea and who understand the logistics and conditions that apply to merchant ships in places like the Gulf of Aden.

[South]

I spent 17 years at sea, deep sea, but in my day the main pirate threat was not the Gulf of Aden/Ethiopian waters but from the top end of the Malacca Straits round Singapore and up into the Yellow Sea. How times change.

As an aside, our only forms of protection from 'pirates' were extra vigilance, fire hoses and an arsenal of twist locks to throw at them! Luckily I worked on 24knot high freeboard container ships so we were or could never really be an easy target. Slower vessels (bulkies/tankers/fishing boats etc) with lower freeboards unfortunately were.

[BaronCasey]

I think that all nations should take a lead from the way that the Russian Navy deals with these Pirates when they come across them - very, very, brutally. According to some media sources, when patrolling Russians identify offshore (in international waters) Pirates, they simply raid it for verification, and then just eliminate the boat and it's crew - I am led to understand, that old international sea laws, when bent a little , still permit this line of action. In contrast, the British Royal Navy, upon finding Pirates, sink their boat and guns, but return the crew, unharmed, to Somalian waters. During which time, the 'prisoners' are fed, watered, and given ciggaretes to keep them quiet. The philosophy being, don't antagonise these Pirates because they may start taking (Islamically justified) retribution on future hostages, and to date, hostages have been treated reasonably well in general. Personally, as a Brit, I preffer the Russian method. And I imagine most Brit's do too.

Any links...proof..articles of what you claim?

LaoPo

Of course not. 'According to some media sources' - 'I am led to understand' and other nonsensical nonsense. One thing in this thread is obvious - there are VERY few posters in it who've ever been to sea and who understand the logistics and conditions that apply to merchant ships in places like the Gulf of Aden.

I obtain most of my info from British broadsheet newspapers, and British documentary television, who, don't seem to have their reports disputed. And of course, one takes this information on face value (i.e. these media sources can't really afford the egg on their faces by getting their journalism totally wrong). Be my guest, do some searching of European origin, and bring yourself up to speed on international affairs ('not been to sea' - ha ha what planet are you from - Kentucky?)

[asiawatcher]

There were a number of videos recently circulated showing Russian troops seizing a Pirate ship. The pirates claimed they were fishermen, complete with rifles and grenades, and rocket launcher. The Russians handcuffed these guys to their boat, and sank it. Seems fair to me. The stupid Brits being politically correct, feeding and sucking up to these scum - <deleted>. In this case piracy laws are still able to be adhered to. They may not have a plank to walk but sure as hell they can be 'removed'. There is not much need for a trial is there! Guilty by being armed and there in international waters. I'm with the Ruskies - sink their vessels with them attached - dead men tell no tales.

[frenchcaptainbob]

The Thais had to pay 5 USD $ million to get back their cargo ship Thor Nexus ? Good. That will help them to understand what others can feel, when Thais are the ones to harrass and randsom others...

I fear they would not understand with ONE only, as indeed it falls as a case of blind piracy from Somalia.

There should be something more directly aimed as a response to the odd attitude of Thais towards foreigners and their assets...

"LIVE" examples speak 1000 times better than 1000 pages...

[ginjag]

The Thais had to pay 5 USD $ million to get back their cargo ship Thor Nexus ? Good. That will help them to understand what others can feel, when Thais are the ones to harrass and randsom others...

I fear they would not understand with ONE only, as indeed it falls as a case of blind piracy from Somalia.

There should be something more directly aimed as a response to the odd attitude of Thais towards foreigners and their assets...

"LIVE" examples speak 1000 times better than 1000 pages...

Sure, couldn't agree more, the ones that fall into mould don't give one fig about what they do or how they do it, one aim greed. there is never a sense of guilt, or shame. No matter how bad a person is, the other party should just walk away. How many westerners go and raid and or take a Thai house-steel goods -money-out of greed and spite???? May I add there are BAD foreigners-many.

[frenchcaptainbob]

<br>None of the little bit of information we've been provided sounds right.  Speaking as a Master Of Ships  who can command any ship of any size, on any ocean, I'm calling bullshit on this story.<br>

<br><br><font size="3">Hello !<br><br>I'm TOO, an Ocean Going Master Mariner,  International licence # 1001, Individual member of the IFSMA # 1039.<br><br>20 years experience in commanding vessels. All certificates of proficiency.  No limits in size, power or distance. Besides I'm bearing a Ph. D.<br><br>Now I can speak: I just retired.<br><br>This piracy goes on as the orders are to let it go. ANY of the advanced nations could make the place CLEAN 100%,  in less than 24 hours, without any casualties in their ranks. It's NOT a war, and the Geneva Convention got nothing to do here. It's PIRACY. And the Rules to fight piracy do apply : NO MERCY.<br>Certainly there would be colateral damages as the pirats are hiding AMONG fishermen, just like the Vietcong was forcing villagers, or the Lords in Afghanistan are pressing over the populations. Or the Nazis were killing 100 civilians, at random,  for an attack from the partisans...<br><br>Skipping the steps in between, where from, the orders to LET IT GO, are coming ?<br>From our dear politicians.<br>May be, those were given the choice, or to let it go, or they would be the ones , and their families to be randsomed and kidnapped. Or that it would be blind terrorism all over.<br><br>For the pirats, they are in the Islamic nebulous. The money must flood into Allah's coffers. Does it go to the poorest of Somalians ? Nope. There is not even a government in that country.<br> Coming from the ship owners, the Insurance companies, the hostages, ANY WAY, money must sweat...<br><br>The Russian attitude is the BEST for now, as they don't take any official position which would oppose the International Community. Indeed they prove EFFICIENT...When the pirats hit on one of their "Russian cruising yachts", they'll never mess with anybody afterwards, and there is nobody to report ( or even complain ) anything...<br><br>That a Thai merchant ship would be involved, as the Thai fleet is a very small % of the World Merchant Fleet, comes probably as a retaliation, for there has been for first time ever a small armada of Naval Thai ships, ordered by NATO, to cruise the area for 3 months, even they are now back to Thailand for some 2 months.<br><br>Politicians are supposed to be our representatives. They have turned out to be our RULERS. And WE let it go....<br><br>Any Thais getting the connections, and reading here, I certainly would accept to WORK for Thailand as a CONSULTANT, in this matter. I would fight on the side of any flag, or any King, standing for VALUES.<br></font>

[tubber]

I spent 17 years at sea, deep sea, but in my day the main pirate threat was not the Gulf of Aden/Ethiopian waters but from the top end of the Malacca Straits round Singapore and up into the Yellow Sea. How times change.

As an aside, our only forms of protection from 'pirates' were extra vigilance, fire hoses and an arsenal of twist locks to throw at them! Luckily I worked on 24knot high freeboard container ships so we were or could never really be an easy target. Slower vessels (bulkies/tankers/fishing boats etc) with lower freeboards unfortunately were.

Things ain't changed, mate, still at sea and the still the same protection. Fire hoses etc, if you wan't to get real nasty throw some of Cookies bread rolls at them. Malacca Straits still has a lot pirate attacks but they only tend to raid them, not hijack the ships. The pirates are starting to abuse the hostages too. Using them as human shields, torturing them and taunting the Navy ships by kicking the sh!t out of the hostages if their demands aren't met. There is talk about having armed security personnel onboard, but so far that is all it is, talk.

[Guest]

<br>None of the little bit of information we've been provided sounds right.  Speaking as a Master Of Ships  who can command any ship of any size, on any ocean, I'm calling bullshit on this story.<br>

<br><br><font size="3">Hello !<br><br>I'm TOO, an Ocean Going Master Mariner,  International licence # 1001, Individual member of the IFSMA # 1039.<br><br>20 years experience in commanding vessels. All certificates of proficiency.  No limits in size, power or distance. Besides I'm bearing a Ph. D.<br><br>Now I can speak: I just retired.<br><br>This piracy goes on as the orders are to let it go. ANY of the advanced nations could make the place CLEAN 100%,  in less than 24 hours, without any casualties in their ranks. It's NOT a war, and the Geneva Convention got nothing to do here. It's PIRACY. And the Rules to fight piracy do apply : NO MERCY.<br>Certainly there would be colateral damages as the pirats are hiding AMONG fishermen, just like the Vietcong was forcing villagers, or the Lords in Afghanistan are pressing over the populations. Or the Nazis were killing 100 civilians, at random,  for an attack from the partisans...<br><br>Skipping the steps in between, where from, the orders to LET IT GO, are coming ?<br>From our dear politicians.<br>May be, those were given the choice, or to let it go, or they would be the ones , and their families to be randsomed and kidnapped. Or that it would be blind terrorism all over.<br><br>For the pirats, they are in the Islamic nebulous. The money must flood into Allah's coffers. Does it go to the poorest of Somalians ? Nope. There is not even a government in that country.<br> Coming from the ship owners, the Insurance companies, the hostages, ANY WAY, money must sweat...<br><br>The Russian attitude is the BEST for now, as they don't take any official position which would oppose the International Community. Indeed they prove EFFICIENT...When the pirats hit on one of their "Russian cruising yachts", they'll never mess with anybody afterwards, and there is nobody to report ( or even complain ) anything...<br><br>That a Thai merchant ship would be involved, as the Thai fleet is a very small % of the World Merchant Fleet, comes probably as a retaliation, for there has been for first time ever a small armada of Naval Thai ships, ordered by NATO, to cruise the area for 3 months, even they are now back to Thailand for some 2 months.<br><br>Politicians are supposed to be our representatives. They have turned out to be our RULERS. And WE let it go....<br><br>Any Thais getting the connections, and reading here, I certainly would accept to WORK for Thailand as a CONSULTANT, in this matter. I would fight on the side of any flag, or any King, standing for VALUES.<br></font>

If you didn't fill this with html code, someone might actually read it.

[frenchcaptainbob]

The Thais had to pay 5 USD $ million to get back their cargo ship Thor Nexus ? Good. That will help them to understand what others can feel, when Thais are the ones to harrass and randsom others...

I fear they would not understand with ONE only, as indeed it falls as a case of blind piracy from Somalia.

There should be something more directly aimed as a response to the odd attitude of Thais towards foreigners and their assets...

"LIVE" examples speak 1000 times better than 1000 pages...

Sure, couldn't agree more, the ones that fall into mould don't give one fig about what they do or how they do it, one aim greed. there is never a sense of guilt, or shame. No matter how bad a person is, the other party should just walk away. How many westerners go and raid and or take a Thai house-steel goods -money-out of greed and spite???? May I add there are BAD foreigners-many.

Foreigners coming to Thailand to STEAL houses and goods ? Certainly there are a few, as THOSE are not being asked from where they are coming, or what they were doing,even they got an International Interpol warrant on their ass, SO FAR THEY WILL SHARE THE PROFITS WITH THE LOCALS. At least they got to share 51% as a Joint venture company must be composed of at least 51% Thai "owners". They provide jobs to Thai workers, they pay taxes, buy cars at 10 times the price of "normal" countries, support spouses + THEIR FAMILIES + FRIENDS doing nothing, + pay the TIP every month to keep going...

For normal foreigners, YES they are conned, day after day. Houses they rob ? You dream... The usual scheme is the Farang would pay a house for his GF or Thai wife, and would be kicked out, as soon as the stamp on the CHANOTE is not yet even dry...

I could introduce you to Thai girls married 3 times in 3 years, got a house every time. A house to their own name only.Their property 100%.

The record I heard is an old Britt', got married in 1 week, the second week bought the house, the third week went back home to clear his status, the fourth week came back to the gate of "his" house. A tall, young man, a Farang by the way, asked him, what's the hell he wants, and better run away dude or I'm gonna beat the shit outa you...

Want more stories like that ? Got 1000 on store.

The reputation is gone WORLDWIDE, and nowadays, I bet there are NO MORE Farang to marry and buy houses in Thailand, if not to their name. I know it undirectly from the girls complaining they cannot find any more a stupid farang ass to marry...

Want figures ? 5 years ago I had more than 50 Farang friends here. 48 are gone to another country. The 2 left over are stuck up with companies they cannot sell, and children they got not rights on, til the kids will be 21 and can decide by themselves...Personally I recently ordered a quote to an international mover...

Individuals are easy to abuse.

HUGE companies can be conned the SAME. Browse and look WHAT is the company BOUYGUES. Those, got into a joint venture with Raimon Land. BOUYGUES built 5 high rise buildings, ( in the range of 50 storeys at 100 / 150,000 THB per sqm ) 4 in BGKK, 1 in Pattaya. It was their part, Raimon Land supposed to sell only. Bad luck. Raimon Land files for bankruptcy. No more money in the bank. The buildings are under seizure til the case will be cleared at the Court. BOUYGUES certainly cannot take the buildings out of Thailand...

Yeah,man, that's it, bad foreigners...Relax. Soon,you won't see any...

[jombom]

None of the little bit of information we've been provided sounds right. Speaking as a Master Of Ships who can command any ship of any size, on any ocean, I'm calling bullshit on this story.

Yes, there is something bizarre about this story. Traveling by sea from Bangladesh to UAE, should be a minimum of 2000 kms from Somalia.

If the pirates have this sort of operating range, then some consideration will have to be given to organising merchants ships in convoys with naval escorts, as per the Atlantic convoys of WW2.

[frenchcaptainbob]

None of the little bit of information we've been provided sounds right. Speaking as a Master Of Ships who can command any ship of any size, on any ocean, I'm calling bullshit on this story.

..I'm puzzled what you mean...? Care to elaborate?

LaoPo

Yes Sir can you ELABORATE as asking Mr. Lao Po ? Master of Ships ?

As such I CAN SHOW, all my diplomas , certifications, credentials, and listing of service day per day for 35 years.

Who would ever pretend piracy in the Gulf of Aden is "bullshit ", may HAVE BEEN a Ship Master, could be, long ago, but is currently suffering an advanced stage of Alzheimer or alchoholism...

[frenchcaptainbob]

None of the little bit of information we've been provided sounds right. Speaking as a Master Of Ships who can command any ship of any size, on any ocean, I'm calling bullshit on this story.

Yes, there is something bizarre about this story. Traveling by sea from Bangladesh to UAE, should be a minimum of 2000 kms from Somalia.

If the pirates have this sort of operating range, then some consideration will have to be given to organising merchants ships in convoys with naval escorts, as per the Atlantic convoys of WW2.

Yes Mister the Mariner of my Dreams, the range of operation of the pirats is over 1000 km. Convoy ? Mixing container ships at 25 knots with ULCC at 12 knots and 20 meters draft, and trawlers pulling their nets ? I donot quite see the "convoys" over the Atlantic during WW2 were safe. A good 50% of the ships sunk. Ships and crews. Even they were fitted with some heavy guns 105 mm, that a shell is enough to sink a lill' submarine like the Nazis had, and heavy duty machine guns too at 12,7 mm....

I bet you go a bit too heavy on VDO and booze, don't you ?

[tubber]

None of the little bit of information we've been provided sounds right. Speaking as a Master Of Ships who can command any ship of any size, on any ocean, I'm calling bullshit on this story.

Yes, there is something bizarre about this story. Traveling by sea from Bangladesh to UAE, should be a minimum of 2000 kms from Somalia.

If the pirates have this sort of operating range, then some consideration will have to be given to organising merchants ships in convoys with naval escorts, as per the Atlantic convoys of WW2.

Yes Mister the Mariner of my Dreams, the range of operation of the pirats is over 1000 km. Convoy ? Mixing container ships at 25 knots with ULCC at 12 knots and 20 meters draft, and trawlers pulling their nets ? I donot quite see the "convoys" over the Atlantic during WW2 were safe. A good 50% of the ships sunk. Ships and crews. Even they were fitted with some heavy guns 105 mm, that a shell is enough to sink a lill' submarine like the Nazis had, and heavy duty machine guns too at 12,7 mm....

I bet you go a bit too heavy on VDO and booze, don't you ?

Military escorted convoys did drastically reduce merchant shipping casualties during the Second World War. 50% casualty rate? Where did you get that from, accepted figures are around 36,000 seamen ( out of a total of 185,000 which isn't 50%), 3,500 merchant ships and 175 warships. The Germans lost 783 submarines and 30,000 submariners out of 40,000.

[thaiedward]

Makes me wonder what it takes to get a NATO attack; someoneshould ask Gaddafi how he managed it and if could he help get NATO to attack Somalipirates.

BINGO! A sensible post!