Tiger X-Road 250

[dave_boo]

Dear LeCharivari, and others...

I never complained about the quality of any Tiger product? Actually if you search the Internet you probably find my receives of Tiger products in the top 3 listings... (and they mostly positive).

I still consider myself a fan of Tiger products, and actual love the idea that they introduced a Motard style motorcycle. The only problem I have is that they have used a design from another Sachs Bikes,

About me supporting Chinese manufacturers, I can say this – Chinese manufacturers seem now-a-day to be entering the Thai market, and offering new motorcycle models – if you look back, Tiger got the same amount of attention for motorcycles they brought on the market. The only limitations are by lack of information, therefore manufacturers like JRD and Platinum (which are actually a Malaysian and Thai brand name which are assembled from a good amount of Chines parts) have not got a good share of attention, every-time we contacted them they had the model not available or they would call back... It's safe to say that Platinum will not call back after 435 days.

Probably at the end of 2011, or beginning of 2012, I would write and comment about Indian motorcycles as it's expected that some of the larger Indian motorcycle manufacturers will start moving to the Southeast Asian motorcycle market. Baja with a 200 or 250cc single-cylinder which probably will be market as a KTM or Kawasaki, and Hero Group (previous known as Hero-Honda), one of the worlds biggest motorcycle manufacturer, who has seriously invested in the 250cc an bigger motorcycle market. Hero Group also bought themselves out of the Honda group for US$ 1 billion. (and this two Indian companies are the ones already setup office in Thailand).

It's true we did some work for Lifan (China not Thailand) and we have a few motorcycles in our warehouse that someday will hopeful make it on the Thai market. If somebody would take the time to look at my postings over the few years they will surely not say that I in favor of Chinese motorcycles – but like all new manufacturers on the market I believe everybody disservice a far chance.

The biggest issue I have with your postings is that often times you're just plain wrong. Remembering quite clearly your pronunciations that there would be absolutely NO CBR 150R that had fuel injection springs to mind. Also availability of Chinese manufacturers to actually break into the Thai market seems quite lacking. On several different models, from several different manufacturers, you stated there would be widespread availability. That has not panned out.

Some could say that the lack of a wide sales network is definitely not your fault. I would tend to agree with them except for the niggling little concern that has been in the back of everyone's mind; namely is RichardBKK feeding the forum a load of bull in order to increase sales for his company(ies?). I think from this post I've responded to it's quite obvious that you are directly intertwined with these same Chinese companies that you're 'providing information' for.

I can't speak for the majority of Europeans, but that leaves quite a bad taste in Americans' mouths--perhaps it's our confrontational approach to life. To post information as if it's the gospel truth, when in reality it's a business ploy that may, or as evidenced by the past, most likely will not come to pass is quite a disservice to readers of this forum. Few posters on this forum call out posts like these, mainly because they do not have information pertaining to the subject, and thus a reader could be led into thinking that what you post is valid.

I can not comment on the legality of Tiger using a Sachs design; but it is illuminating that they continue to utilise the Madass and Kikass; I also do not have the information if FYM still has permission to produce X-Trackers. Perhaps you can shed some light on that? If FYM, who lost a major stockholder when the owner of the Sachs trademark sold their ,can still produce X-Trackers what reason would Tiger have for not being able to also sell their version?

[Richard-BKK]

Dear LeCharivari, and others...

I never complained about the quality of any Tiger product? Actually if you search the Internet you probably find my receives of Tiger products in the top 3 listings... (and they mostly positive).

I still consider myself a fan of Tiger products, and actual love the idea that they introduced a Motard style motorcycle. The only problem I have is that they have used a design from another Sachs Bikes,

About me supporting Chinese manufacturers, I can say this – Chinese manufacturers seem now-a-day to be entering the Thai market, and offering new motorcycle models – if you look back, Tiger got the same amount of attention for motorcycles they brought on the market. The only limitations are by lack of information, therefore manufacturers like JRD and Platinum (which are actually a Malaysian and Thai brand name which are assembled from a good amount of Chines parts) have not got a good share of attention, every-time we contacted them they had the model not available or they would call back... It's safe to say that Platinum will not call back after 435 days.

Probably at the end of 2011, or beginning of 2012, I would write and comment about Indian motorcycles as it's expected that some of the larger Indian motorcycle manufacturers will start moving to the Southeast Asian motorcycle market. Baja with a 200 or 250cc single-cylinder which probably will be market as a KTM or Kawasaki, and Hero Group (previous known as Hero-Honda), one of the worlds biggest motorcycle manufacturer, who has seriously invested in the 250cc an bigger motorcycle market. Hero Group also bought themselves out of the Honda group for US$ 1 billion. (and this two Indian companies are the ones already setup office in Thailand).

It's true we did some work for Lifan (China not Thailand) and we have a few motorcycles in our warehouse that someday will hopeful make it on the Thai market. If somebody would take the time to look at my postings over the few years they will surely not say that I in favor of Chinese motorcycles – but like all new manufacturers on the market I believe everybody disservice a far chance.

The biggest issue I have with your postings is that often times you're just plain wrong. Remembering quite clearly your pronunciations that there would be absolutely NO CBR 150R that had fuel injection springs to mind. Also availability of Chinese manufacturers to actually break into the Thai market seems quite lacking. On several different models, from several different manufacturers, you stated there would be widespread availability. That has not panned out.

Some could say that the lack of a wide sales network is definitely not your fault. I would tend to agree with them except for the niggling little concern that has been in the back of everyone's mind; namely is RichardBKK feeding the forum a load of bull in order to increase sales for his company(ies?). I think from this post I've responded to it's quite obvious that you are directly intertwined with these same Chinese companies that you're 'providing information' for.

I can't speak for the majority of Europeans, but that leaves quite a bad taste in Americans' mouths--perhaps it's our confrontational approach to life. To post information as if it's the gospel truth, when in reality it's a business ploy that may, or as evidenced by the past, most likely will not come to pass is quite a disservice to readers of this forum. Few posters on this forum call out posts like these, mainly because they do not have information pertaining to the subject, and thus a reader could be led into thinking that what you post is valid.

I can not comment on the legality of Tiger using a Sachs design; but it is illuminating that they continue to utilise the Madass and Kikass; I also do not have the information if FYM still has permission to produce X-Trackers. Perhaps you can shed some light on that? If FYM, who lost a major stockholder when the owner of the Sachs trademark sold their ,can still produce X-Trackers what reason would Tiger have for not being able to also sell their version?

About the Honda CBR150R, I was wrong, and I was a bit right, Honda was able to adjust the PGM-FI (fuel-injection) system so, after 5-years (6-year if you count the moment the CBR125R got the PGM-FI) that it was able to work with the 150cc engine. 5-years, other historical and much smarter people then me have said things like people will never travel faster than sound, it's just not possible.... 3-years later the X-project broke the sound barrier, and people said humans would never walk on the moon, just 4-years after that said Niel Armstrong was waving the American flag..., and after 56k computer modems experts said that is it squeezing more out the cable cannot... now I connect with 12mb/1mb Internet connection. 5-years is a long time for technology – also if we look back to what Honda itself published regarding the PGM-FI, the first press release stated for motorcycles not exceeding 125cc and that was for a long time the case...

Also in history engineers were confident that television would never display color, but than they build the whole TV-tube different and it was possible... compare a B/W TV with a color TV is similar to comparing the first PGM-FI for small engines to the currect PGM-FI (which has much more likeness with the PGM-FI's used with Honda's big bikes)

[MRToMRT]

At 870 mm seat height its higher than my Versys - I may just have to get one of these for the ride height alone

[taichiplanet]

The X-Road 250 is 40kgs lighter than the CBR250 and 50kgs lighter than the Ninja250.

So if that 20HP for the X-road is at the wheel that gives power to weight (P/W) ratio of 0.164, but let’s say 18 HP.

P/W Ratios:

X-Road250 18 HP @ 121.5kgs = 0.148

Ninja 250R 26 HP @ 170 kgs = 0.153

CBR 250R 21.5 HP @ 161 kgs = 0.133

So with those figures the X-Road is comparable to the Ninja, but likely to have better torque low down. The best of both worlds?!

But of course a little meaningless without throwing in the weight of a rider.

Let’s throw in an 80 kg rider.

X-Road250 18 HP @ 201.5kgs = 0.0893

Ninja 250R 26 HP @ 250 kgs = 0.104

CBR 250R 21.5 HP @ 241 kgs = 0.0892

So the Ninja edges slightly ahead.

PS Sorry to mix imperial and metric measurements!

[dave_boo]

About the Honda CBR150R, I was wrong, and I was a bit right, Honda was able to adjust the PGM-FI (fuel-injection) system so, after 5-years (6-year if you count the moment the CBR125R got the PGM-FI) that it was able to work with the 150cc engine. 5-years, other historical and much smarter people then me have said things like people will never travel faster than sound, it's just not possible.... 3-years later the X-project broke the sound barrier, and people said humans would never walk on the moon, just 4-years after that said Niel Armstrong was waving the American flag..., and after 56k computer modems experts said that is it squeezing more out the cable cannot... now I connect with 12mb/1mb Internet connection. 5-years is a long time for technology – also if we look back to what Honda itself published regarding the PGM-FI, the first press release stated for motorcycles not exceeding 125cc and that was for a long time the case...

Also in history engineers were confident that television would never display color, but than they build the whole TV-tube different and it was possible... compare a B/W TV with a color TV is similar to comparing the first PGM-FI for small engines to the currect PGM-FI (which has much more likeness with the PGM-FI's used with Honda's big bikes)

Let me get this right, just so that I'm not jumping to conclusions. You're saying that it took Honda 6 years to account for an additional 25cc of displacement when reprogramming their fuel injection system? And since the earliest I know that Honda used fuel injection was at least 2001 (on the Honda CBR600F4i..which coincidentally has 4x 150cc cylinders), what was their big problem? Also I would really like to read where Honda Japan has a press release stating that there was going to be NO PGM-FI for any +125cc engine...IIRC I pointed out your 'interpetation' of that was flawed in the CBR 150 thread, but I don't relish the thought of going back through all those pages.

It's nice to try and obscure the answer with historical references, but seriously, until LOS instituted their latest emission laws there was no reason for AP Honda to update the CBR 150 was there? And since the model was going to undergo an update, a one year absence wouldn't be terribly bad would it?

***irrelevant to my post, but wanting to poke some other holes your post***

Only loonies thought that man could not fly faster than the speed of sound. Bullets regularly travel much faster and even the Austrian Ernst Mach modeled the physics behind it...in the 1890s!

Your 56k comment is about the most ridiculous thing I've read today (but it is only 0930 here so it may be surpassed). You realise that 56k modems use analouge and the DSL (digital subscriber lines) use digital right? I mean the little 45rpm records can only hold, what, 15 minutes or so of sound? And a cd, which is smaller, can hold 70+....it also does not mean squat since you're comparing two different techs.

[BigBikeBKK]

My favorite Richard BKK libelous quote, posted just weeks before the ER6n went on sale:

Sorry people,

Currently I believe that somebody in Kawasaki has revised its ideas about the motorcycle market in Thailand, Kawasaki will not introduce any larger models at this point, next revue is up in 6 months.

[CMX]

My favorite Richard BKK libelous quote, posted just weeks before the ER6n went on sale:

Sorry people,

Currently I believe that somebody in Kawasaki has revised its ideas about the motorcycle market in Thailand, Kawasaki will not introduce any larger models at this point, next revue is up in 6 months.

Libel is a false and malicious statement made to harm an individual (requires naming). (Dave's "just plain wrong" does not imply libel; it does demonstrate that one should do due diligence; a single source is rarely worthwhile, particularly in the commercial world.)

Did not Gary P's entry #15 make plain that nobody here is going to sort out the patent issues as will the parties or Thai courts or nobody at all?

Off topic, here, is when we don't stick to the subject: Tiger X-Road 250.

[dave_boo]

My favorite Richard BKK libelous quote, posted just weeks before the ER6n went on sale:

Sorry people,

Currently I believe that somebody in Kawasaki has revised its ideas about the motorcycle market in Thailand, Kawasaki will not introduce any larger models at this point, next revue is up in 6 months.

Libel is a false and malicious statement made to harm an individual. (Dave's "just plain wrong" does not imply libel; it does demonstrate that one should do due diligence; a single source is rarely worthwhile.)

Did not Gary P's entry #15 make plain that nobody here is going to sort out the patent issues as will the parties or Thai courts or nobody at all?

Off topic, here, is when we don't stick to the subject:Tiger X-Road 250.

Actually, from the way that I've understood Thai law, even the statement I made could be contorted into a libel case. Granted it would entail the accuser to come forth and present their case and there's an extremely good chance they would lose it.

And furthermore, searching "Madrid System for the International Registration of Marks" resulted in no hits for 1025499. In fact a google search for Sachs trademark 1025499 resulted in a grand total of 6 results; none of which pertain to any trademark for motorcycles. Other searches for the registration number, to include dates, Sachs, X-Road revealed nothing. It would seem to me that the name is actually not trademarked from what I've been able to find out.

[Richard-BKK]

About the Honda CBR150R, I was wrong, and I was a bit right, Honda was able to adjust the PGM-FI (fuel-injection) system so, after 5-years (6-year if you count the moment the CBR125R got the PGM-FI) that it was able to work with the 150cc engine. 5-years, other historical and much smarter people then me have said things like people will never travel faster than sound, it's just not possible.... 3-years later the X-project broke the sound barrier, and people said humans would never walk on the moon, just 4-years after that said Niel Armstrong was waving the American flag..., and after 56k computer modems experts said that is it squeezing more out the cable cannot... now I connect with 12mb/1mb Internet connection. 5-years is a long time for technology – also if we look back to what Honda itself published regarding the PGM-FI, the first press release stated for motorcycles not exceeding 125cc and that was for a long time the case...

Also in history engineers were confident that television would never display color, but than they build the whole TV-tube different and it was possible... compare a B/W TV with a color TV is similar to comparing the first PGM-FI for small engines to the currect PGM-FI (which has much more likeness with the PGM-FI's used with Honda's big bikes)

Let me get this right, just so that I'm not jumping to conclusions. You're saying that it took Honda 6 years to account for an additional 25cc of displacement when reprogramming their fuel injection system? And since the earliest I know that Honda used fuel injection was at least 2001 (on the Honda CBR600F4i..which coincidentally has 4x 150cc cylinders), what was their big problem? Also I would really like to read where Honda Japan has a press release stating that there was going to be NO PGM-FI for any +125cc engine...IIRC I pointed out your 'interpetation' of that was flawed in the CBR 150 thread, but I don't relish the thought of going back through all those pages.

It's nice to try and obscure the answer with historical references, but seriously, until LOS instituted their latest emission laws there was no reason for AP Honda to update the CBR 150 was there? And since the model was going to undergo an update, a one year absence wouldn't be terribly bad would it?

***irrelevant to my post, but wanting to poke some other holes your post***

Only loonies thought that man could not fly faster than the speed of sound. Bullets regularly travel much faster and even the Austrian Ernst Mach modeled the physics behind it...in the 1890s!

Your 56k comment is about the most ridiculous thing I've read today (but it is only 0930 here so it may be surpassed). You realise that 56k modems use analouge and the DSL (digital subscriber lines) use digital right? I mean the little 45rpm records can only hold, what, 15 minutes or so of sound? And a cd, which is smaller, can hold 70+....it also does not mean squat since you're comparing two different techs.

From the Honda archive, a quote "Accordingly, we have started development of the PGM-FI system for small motorcycles with engines of 125cc or smaller, including air-cooled engines."

First-PGM-FI-system.pdf

[dave_boo]

From the Honda archive, a quote "Accordingly, we have started development of the PGM-FI system for small motorcycles with engines of 125cc or smaller, including air-cooled engines."

Ok, language barrier. This is the most relevant section of your pdf:

As the conventional FI system

(electronic fuel injection system) applied to motorcycles is bulky and costly, its

application has been mostly in large motorcycles using multi-cylinder engines. In

the newly developed PGM-FI, in order to apply to small displacement models, the

obstacles have been eliminated by fully using Honda's techniques to down-size

components as well as making maximum use of the FI techniques attained from

the large motorcycles.

I'll sum it up for you; the original FI system was too bulky for little bikes so Honda downsized it. Raises interesting questions as to the efficacy in regards to changes in the fueling system resulting in a overly lean condition that the electronics couldn't handle without reprogramming versus the ability of the large bike's FI system doing that automatically.

No where does it say that this same system could not be applied on a larger bike; in fact the down-sizing is a feature that would have enormous implications on weight savings...

[LeCharivari]

...... Let me know when you get the new bike and I'll come down and we can have some fun on the go-cart track at BIRA. I think the X-Road would be a lot of fun on that tight twisty little track.

There's also a dirt track at BIRA but I've never actually been over to look at it. .....

Not sure if the go-cart track or the dirt track at Bira are the most suitable places to test the X-Road; I think that Beach Road is more likely to be its main stamping / posing ground! I love the styling, except for the light and front mudguard which look a bit dated and could both easily be modified or replaced.

One thing I can't quite understand with Tiger is their fixation with ASS - first there was the MadASS, then the KikASS, and apparently next up is the StuntASS version of the X-Road. Maybe the X-Road will be re-named the SmartASS and the Boxer the DumbASS - or maybe the whole range will be re-named the LoadofASS ??

[taichiplanet]

I agree that the use of ASS is stupid. There is too much Americanisation of the English language, it should be spelt ARSE!

[katabeachbum]

I agree that the use of ASS is stupid. There is too much Americanisation of the English language, it should be spelt ARSE!

or make it Italian

my last yacht was a 2000 Italian Azimut. Short for Azimut is AZ.

Name of yacht, MY AZ

[BSJ]

I am not sure if there is a dealer in Phichit, the closest city to where I will be soon living, but I would like to have a look at one out of interest.

[taichiplanet]

I agree that the use of ASS is stupid. There is too much Americanisation of the English language, it should be spelt ARSE!

or make it Italian

my last yacht was a 2000 Italian Azimut. Short for Azimut is AZ.

Name of yacht, MY AZ

Cool boats! A more precise mis-interp-translation of AZIMUT for your boat name should be MY DOG'S AZ!! Though your name for it is much more Zen!

Just to clear up; the ASS fixation is from Sachs not Tiger. The 'Stuntass' is a bike photochopped by me about 9 months ago. mbox at the Tiger Sachs Club gave it the name 'Stuntass', a bit of a joke name for the 'project'. He did bring the pics to the attention of the Tiger factory, so we have been hoping they might produce something like it. Whether it becomes reality is anyone's guess.

[LeCharivari]

Well, TCP, you've got the front fender where it should be rather than in its form over function position on the X-Road - the first and simplest mod I'd do if I got one, followed by a Mad-Ass style light set-up. Yours looks very like an up-sized version of the Momos Forza / Rocket Boy made by Tiger for Malaysia.

[taichiplanet]

This is the actual production X-Road, sold by Tiger!

[JonnyF]

Wow - the bikes on #45 look awesome, I'd buy the blue one in a heartbeat!

[katabeachbum]

This is the actual production X-Road, sold by Tiger!

cool

[phobic]

I agree that the use of ASS is stupid. There is too much Americanisation of the English language, it should be spelt ARSE!

or make it Italian

my last yacht was a 2000 Italian Azimut. Short for Azimut is AZ.

Name of yacht, MY AZ

Cool boats! A more precise mis-interp-translation of AZIMUT for your boat name should be MY DOG'S AZ!! Though your name for it is much more Zen!

Just to clear up; the ASS fixation is from Sachs not Tiger. The 'Stuntass' is a bike photochopped by me about 9 months ago. mbox at the Tiger Sachs Club gave it the name 'Stuntass', a bit of a joke name for the 'project'. He did bring the pics to the attention of the Tiger factory, so we have been hoping they might produce something like it. Whether it becomes reality is anyone's guess.

Looks alot like KTM 125 .. not a bad bike for inspiration though..

[taichiplanet]

I agree that the use of ASS is stupid. There is too much Americanisation of the English language, it should be spelt ARSE!

or make it Italian

my last yacht was a 2000 Italian Azimut. Short for Azimut is AZ.

Name of yacht, MY AZ

Cool boats! A more precise mis-interp-translation of AZIMUT for your boat name should be MY DOG'S AZ!! Though your name for it is much more Zen!

Just to clear up; the ASS fixation is from Sachs not Tiger. The 'Stuntass' is a bike photochopped by me about 9 months ago. mbox at the Tiger Sachs Club gave it the name 'Stuntass', a bit of a joke name for the 'project'. He did bring the pics to the attention of the Tiger factory, so we have been hoping they might produce something like it. Whether it becomes reality is anyone's guess.

Looks alot like KTM 125 .. not a bad bike for inspiration though..

Spot on Phobic, the KTM125 was the inspiration. If you ring in the next 1/2 hour you win a free set of steaks!

[phobic]

Haha, a set of what kind of steaks is what i want to know

[taichiplanet]

somehow the 'knives' in 'steak knives' was cut! Anyway you didn't call within 1/2 hour so you will never know!

[dave_boo]

somehow the 'knives' in 'steak knives' was cut! Anyway you didn't call within 1/2 hour so you will never know!  

You sure you don't work for APe Honda?

[taichiplanet]

somehow the 'knives' in 'steak knives' was cut! Anyway you didn't call within 1/2 hour so you will never know!  

You sure you don't work for APe Honda?

I have spent the last 3 years trying to downgrading my skills with the hope of joining APe Honda. Short of having 3/4 of my brains removed i fear i will never be 'good' enough to join their ranks.

[Mr.Poko]

Tiger motor has redesigned the website http://www.tigermotor.co.th very nice, but not one word about the X-road 250 “other that it is a future product” do they not want to sell?

[Mr.Poko]

I have a few more questions, my assistant spoke to somebody from Tiger Motor, and they claim that they don't sell or make the X-road 250 (confusing – not completely – yet), but the Tiger Sachs Club is importing them and selling them so I need to contact them.

Now the questions, on the tigersachsclub and on this forum I read that Tiger Motor is doing the warranty, is this true? Who is the importer and who is making the dam_n things? Also the Tiger motor person said that I would have no problem registering the bike, because they are identical to the Sachs X-Road 250 who is already approved for Thailand. But is it not so that even if a product is the same but from other manufacturers and other model numbers it needs to be tested again?

[guzzi850m2]

I have a few more questions, my assistant spoke to somebody from Tiger Motor, and they claim that they don't sell or make the X-road 250 (confusing – not completely – yet), but the Tiger Sachs Club is importing them and selling them so I need to contact them.

Now the questions, on the tigersachsclub and on this forum I read that Tiger Motor is doing the warranty, is this true? Who is the importer and who is making the dam_n things? Also the Tiger motor person said that I would have no problem registering the bike, because they are identical to the Sachs X-Road 250 who is already approved for Thailand. But is it not so that even if a product is the same but from other manufacturers and other model numbers it needs to be tested again?

That sounds strange, hmm.

Where is mbox? Haven't seen him here for a while, but maybe because they (Tiger) don't sponsor this forum anymore??

[thaicbr]

it sounds like a breakdown in communication. Tiger make the x-road. the Tiger website is new and not yet complete. maybe the tiger staff were just detailing that it is very easy to purchase from the Tiger club website. or they were just lazy. did you get a name?

PS the unit tested was the same as being sold .same model number. you get all the correct documentation from the factory. no problem there.

[Mr.Poko]

I do not understand Thai language, but my assistant told them that my house is on Lad Phrao – and if I look at the Tiger Motor website they also indicate for new Sachs Bikes you need to visit the tigersachsclub – I am not from the postorder generation and will not start with buying a motorbike

http://www.tigermotor.co.th/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=83:promotesach&catid=36:motorcycle&Itemid=164