Alcoholism

[StreetCowboy]

I feel really bad, commenting on this forum. Trouble is, I've not lived in Thailand 20 years, and I've not been following the Asian Five Nations rugby for ten years, so maybe I shouldn't be posting on this forum, except to advise people to drink more and best places to get drunk - I did that for long enough.

Anyway, I reckon that anyone who thinks others are unqualified based on their own qualifications should perhaps review their 'open-mindedness' policy. Maybe anyone who hasn't lived in Thailand for at least ten years and can't speak, read and write Thai shouldn't be on this forum anyway.

Luckily for us all, that's not the view that the forum managers take

SC

[Mobi]

I feel really bad, commenting on this forum. Trouble is, I've not lived in Thailand 20 years, and I've not been following the Asian Five Nations rugby for ten years, so maybe I shouldn't be posting on this forum, except to advise people to drink more and best places to get drunk - I did that for long enough.

Anyway, I reckon that anyone who thinks others are unqualified based on their own qualifications should perhaps review their 'open-mindedness' policy. Maybe anyone who hasn't lived in Thailand for at least ten years and can't speak, read and write Thai shouldn't be on this forum anyway.

Luckily for us all, that's not the view that the forum managers take

SC

:cheesy:

Good job I've got more than 10 years of whore-mongering under my belt or my blog would be a complete blank.....

[kerryk]

Mobi,

I have found vitamin B good at reducing a craving for alcohol. I don't know if that is universal or just me. In any event a couple of vitamin B's is not very dangerous.

Maybe someday scientists will have a pill for reducing the craving or like on Star Trek we will be able to drink and not get drunk.

I have no idea what manner of thing your higher power would be. AA does not insist on everyone having the same higher power.

Higher power is a concept more than it is a thing.

I am trying to think of an analogy that most can understand. It is something you put your faith in that is outside of yourself. One of the keys is outside of yourself.

A young recruit goes into combat for the first time. He hears shooting and sees death all around him. Kind of like an alcoholic sees the destruction that booze created in his life. The young soldier can debate all of the orders he receives. He can think about all the commands from higher up and debate the validity of the instructions. Or, he can place his trust in the grizzled old sergeant who has seen many wars. That old sergeant becomes his higher power. He puts absolute faith in the man. He gives up his free will and tells the sarge, “you tell me to do it and I will do it.” One soldier who is an intellectual thinks he can figure it out by himself. When the sergeant tells the troops to “hit the dirt.” The intellectual thinks about the mines that might be planted in the soil and looks before he takes cover. The other who considers the sarge his higher power takes cover immediately. The intellectual gets shot and the soldier who has given up his free will remains alive. It is kind of like that.

The sarge can't cure cancer he doesn't know anything about cancer. The sarge knows about war.

My higher power in AA knows nothing about curing cancer. My higher power knows only about me and my desire to drink.

If I was trying to stay alive during a war I would find the most knowledgeable person to guide me. I would not want a newcomer with lots of good ideas. I want an old timer who has made it through a couple of wars. Like I said before, I am not a spokesperson for AA. I am only talking about me.

In case you are wondering I am a hard core atheist and I see no problem with having a higher power.

My first step in dealing with my alcoholism was to see an Medical doctor, he told me to go to AA. My second step was to see a psychologist, he told me to go to AA. My third step was to see a psychiatrist and he told me to go to AA too. Not one of those medical professionals told me to strike out on my own and do research on the internet and try and cure my disease myself. They all told me to go to AA and stay in AA. Not one of them told me to try out AA for a few weeks or months.

Maybe I have explained it a little better I don't know. I do think we have two almost completely different points of view and I don't see that discussion of that is harmful.

I think you are saying trust yourself to make the right decisions about yourself because you know yourself better than anyone else. Educate yourself about alcoholism and make decisions that you feel comfortable with.

I am saying. You can't trust yourself because an alcoholic mind is not trustworthy. Trust AA and go along with the program unconditionally because nothing better is currently available. Go to meetings, get a sponsor, work the steps.

I am saying go to meetings, get a sponsor and work the steps. You are saying think about it but it may not be necessary to go to meetings, have a sponsor and work the steps.

Am I stating our positions correctly?

Edited May 21, 2011 by kerryk

[Johnniey]

Tell me, why should a Higher Power cure alcoholism, yet not be able to cure cancer? Both diseases are created by a deadly chemical in the body's system.

I thought I already wrote about this.

Alcoholism has 3 facets IMHO - Physical, Psychological, and Spiritual. Doctors have found a cure for the physical already in a anti-opoid drug called Naltrexone, which stops the 'physical cravings'. I've taken this drug before when I was receiving treatment many years ago. Of course, I still drank but it was very strange. I know what a normal drinker feels like. The alcohol made me drunk but there was something missing, there was no 'buzz' - it was boring. In the mornings, I didn't have the shakes like I had had for years. The mental or psychological aspect can be treated by many kids of therapy. The spiritual side can be treated in many ways too. Cancer is a purely physical disease - can't you see the difference?

BTW, just to put right another of the unfair accusations you have made in this thread; the only advice I have given here - and I have given it over and over and over again - is for people who seek sobriety to go to AA meetings. Others who also share my views to one extent or another, are also giving the same advice. So by your reasoning we shouldn't be giving this advice as we are unqualified to do so and our advice is worthless.....

You should be happy about us doing this, not continually trying to turn potential newcomers away by your dogmatic, and intolerant diatribe against anyone who doesn't have 20 years sobriety.

Give the guy a break. All he's saying is that people who have done something for many years have a lot more experience and knowledge. You're telling people that a 'higher power' is a figment of some alcoholics imagination. Perhaps the most important thing in my recovery from alcoholism was the humility I was given when finally beaten. I was humble enough to admit I didn't know the answer and was willing to do anything to find it, which meant listening to those people who had managed to stay off the booze for some time. As a rough estimate, I say about 3 years sobriety proves that the person actually knows and is doing something. I've seen many know-it-alls who never get past 1 year sobriety. I used to find them a pain in the arse but now realise that they are just sick people

Did it ever occur to you that at least some of the folk who claim 20 or more years sobriety may never have been alcoholics in the first place? It has to me - I am highly suspicious of some of these 'decades-long' recovering alkies who preach their stuff at AA meetings and then often practice something very different.

There are many many more alcoholics not in AA than there are non-alcoholics in AA. I've met a few, so what, they are being helped.

Edited May 21, 2011 by Johnniey

[StreetCowboy]

....

There are many many more alcoholics not in AA than there are non-alcoholics in AA. I've met a few, so what, they are being helped.

'... the only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking.'

You don't need to be alcoholic to be a member of AA; you only need a desire to sto drinking. And not necessarily an overwhelming, driving or lasting desire to stop drinking.

Besides, a lot of meetings are open meetings and anyone is welcome to attend.

However, a willingness to suppress bickering and argument would be helpful "...personal recovery depends upon AA unity'.

On the other hand, here on TV, futile bickering and narrow-minded abuse is mandatory, I believe....

SC

[Mobi]

In case you are wondering I am a hard core atheist and I see no problem with having a higher power.

If that ain't the most perfect oxymoron (contradiction in terms) I have ever read, then I'd like to know one that is. Good one Kerry.....

I think you are saying trust yourself to make the right decisions about yourself because you know yourself better than anyone else. Educate yourself about alcoholism and make decisions that you feel comfortable with.

I never said anything of the sort. You are extrapolating assumptions from my various utterances that were never made and never intended. This is a debate about alcoholism, AA and God. I have never suggested that the way I go about dealing with my own alcoholism is in any way shape or form a template for others to follow.

I have simply said, that for me, and for others, AA doesn't always work. Anyone would think from what you have written that I am trying to set myself up as some kind of anti-AA guru who has some other alternative way to achieve sobriety. This is complete rot - I am simply telling you of my own experiences and what I have done in my own life. In fact, I would go so far as to say..'Follow me at your peril..'

You are saying think about it but it may not be necessary to go to meetings, have a sponsor and work the steps.

I never said any such thing. I have said purely and simply, "GO TO AA". How many times do you want me to say it before you accept it? I didn't say "think about it but it may not be necessary to go to meetings, have a sponsor and work the steps." Why on earth should I? and why do you love to put words in my mouth?

You are forever confusing the statements I have posted in this thread about my own life and experiences with me giving advice to others. The only advice I have given to others is 'GO TO AA!!!!!'

Got it????

I doubt it - you will never get it because you are so sensitive to even the slightest criticism of AA and also because I suspect that your resentments, (oh dear that is a really dirty word in AA), always seem to get the better of you when you are trying to debate with me - someone who maybe you are afraid deep down might have a germ of veracity in what he is saying....

Peace and serenity, my friend and work on those resentments

Edited May 21, 2011 by Mobi

[trisailer]

"If I was trying to stay alive during a war I would find the most knowledgeable person to guide me. I would not want a newcomer with lots of good ideas."

kerryk, I think you have the best intentions reinforced by what worked for you (and me) but the science says otherwise. AA is very reluctant to participate in studies that track the effectiveness of the program, but there have been a couple of double blind studies that showed virtually no difference between the recovery of those who attended AA and those who didn't. Don't take my word for it goggle AA recidivism. The courts have declared that people cannot be forced to attend AA because it's effectiveness cannot be established. As you probably know there is a significant amount of people who knew that even Bill W became a moderate drinker later in his life.

I started drinking again after two years of sobriety. I told myself that I would run back to AA if I drove over the legal limit or if my behavior was aggressive. I have kept that promise. Last night my wife and I went out and I had two drinks over a 4 hour period. Please don't misunderstand me that I'm suggesting people play games with addictions. My best friend at the time had 18 years of sobriety and when he started drinking he immediately went back to where he stopped and now is dead.

Mobi has said that he is aware of AA and he said he would know where to go if he fails doing it his way.

Edited May 21, 2011 by trisailer

[kerryk]

Mobi,

That is the reason I asked. I stated what I thought was your position so I could understand it.

Apparently you don't understand my ability to be an atheist and have a higher power. I don't know how I can make it clearer. A higher power does not have to be a God figure. It can be the people in AA or anything I choose it to be. It only has to be outside of myself. Like the young soldier trusts his sergeant I trust AA. For me it has nothing to do with God.

Do you understand that?

[kerryk]

"If I was trying to stay alive during a war I would find the most knowledgeable person to guide me. I would not want a newcomer with lots of good ideas."

kerryk, I think you have the best intentions reinforced by what worked for you (and me) but the science says otherwise. AA is very reluctant to participate in studies that track the effectiveness of the program, but there have been a couple of double blind studies that showed virtually no difference between the recovery of those who attended AA and those who didn't. Don't take my word for it goggle AA recidivism. The courts have declared that people cannot be forced to attend AA because it's effectiveness cannot be established. As you probably know there is a significant amount of people who knew that even Bill W became a moderate drinker later in his life.

I started drinking again after two years of sobriety. I told myself that I would run back to AA if I drove over the legal limit or if my behavior was aggressive. I have kept that promise. Last night my wife and I went out and I had two drinks over a 4 hour period. Please don't misunderstand me that I'm suggesting people play games with addictions. My best friend at the time had 18 years of sobriety and when he started drinking he immediately went back to where he stopped and now is dead.

Mobi has said that he is aware of AA and he said he would know where to go if he fails doing it his way.

The story I have always heard is he asked for 3 shots of whisky on his deathbed. I have never heard he became a moderate drinker. I only have read he stopped drinking for 36 years until his death. Do you have a link for any information that Bill W became a moderate drinker?

[RickThai]

"A young recruit goes into combat for the first time. He hears shooting and sees death all around him. Kind of like an alcoholic sees the destruction that booze created in his life. The young soldier can debate all of the orders he receives. He can think about all the commands from higher up and debate the validity of the instructions. Or, he can place his trust in the grizzled old sergeant who has seen many wars. That old sergeant becomes his higher power. He puts absolute faith in the man. He gives up his free will and tells the sarge, “you tell me to do it and I will do it.” One soldier who is an intellectual thinks he can figure it out by himself. When the sergeant tells the troops to “hit the dirt.” The intellectual thinks about the mines that might be planted in the soil and looks before he takes cover. The other who considers the sarge his higher power takes cover immediately. The intellectual gets shot and the soldier who has given up his free will remains alive. It is kind of like that."

Based upon my experience as a soldier in combat, during training recruits are "conditioned" to obey orders. They are also trained that legally they are required to obey "all legal orders". They are also "conditioned" on how to react to combat situations.

Once in 'real' combat, they learn their best chance of survival is by learning what the experienced soldiers do. When faced with 'incoming rounds (bullets, rockets, mortars, etc.), they 'react' instantly without waiting for a sergeant or anything to tell them. Soldiers quickly learn that some sergeants, Lieutenants, Captains, etc. are complete idiots and will get you killed in a heartbeat.

The reality that any soldier in combat learns, is that fate has more to do with your survival than anything else. Special Ops (Rangers, Special Forces, Delta, Seals, Force Recon, etc.) are probably the best trained combat soldiers in the world, but many of them bleed and die just like the dumbest private or gyrine in the military.

During my years of military service, I have never found any soldier who believed that Sergeants, etc were any form of "higher power".

That my experience (as a retired Captain).

RickThai

[saraburioz]

"If I was trying to stay alive during a war I would find the most knowledgeable person to guide me. I would not want a newcomer with lots of good ideas."

kerryk, I think you have the best intentions reinforced by what worked for you (and me) but the science says otherwise. AA is very reluctant to participate in studies that track the effectiveness of the program, but there have been a couple of double blind studies that showed virtually no difference between the recovery of those who attended AA and those who didn't. Don't take my word for it goggle AA recidivism. The courts have declared that people cannot be forced to attend AA because it's effectiveness cannot be established. As you probably know there is a significant amount of people who knew that even Bill W became a moderate drinker later in his life.

I started drinking again after two years of sobriety. I told myself that I would run back to AA if I drove over the legal limit or if my behavior was aggressive. I have kept that promise. Last night my wife and I went out and I had two drinks over a 4 hour period. Please don't misunderstand me that I'm suggesting people play games with addictions. My best friend at the time had 18 years of sobriety and when he started drinking he immediately went back to where he stopped and now is dead.

Mobi has said that he is aware of AA and he said he would know where to go if he fails doing it his way.

lol i can't believe Bill W became a modereate drinker. anyways even if he did he has helped millions of other alcoholics.

Mobi, who are you helping exactly at the moment? one thing I like about AA is how one alcoholic helps another,. i might go back to Aa one day and pray that some unsleflesss alcoholics will be there keeeping the meetings going to help me. i have a few friend that rouitinely check up on me and invite me bac to a meeting. wonderful people, i wish I could be liek.

[janverbeem]

If alcoholism is considered a disease then every drug addict or addict of any kind should be considered the same.

IMHO it all has to do with character and nothin else.

[StreetCowboy]

If alcoholism is considered a disease then every drug addict or addict of any kind should be considered the same.

IMHO it all has to do with character and nothin else.

I think you wanted to post in this thread - http://www.thaivisa....25#entry4238122

I hope that this thread will not degenerate into a repeat of that thread...

For my part, I prefer the term 'malady', or 'illness', or 'sickness' but there we are.

IMHO drinking a lot affects your desire for alcohol, and therefore it clearly is not just a matter of will power, but also something physical which is damaged by the alcohol. And I expect drugs, tobacco, coffee etc are the same.

Of course, some of us have character defects which we address through drink, or whatever, and any programme, however many steps it takes, which addresses these character defects, will help us avoid alcohol and drunkenness, or drugs, or solace in the arms of ladies of the night, or going out looking for fisticuffs, or driving too fast, or whatever our anti-social behaviour might be.

Anyway, there's probably no such thing as psychological illness, and they should all just pull themselves together and stop whinging.

SC

EDIT: It's probably just a conspiracy by the guys that invented psychiatry because they couldn't make it as doctors

Edited May 22, 2011 by Sheryl
Ethnic slur removed

[janverbeem]

If alcoholism is considered a disease then every drug addict or addict of any kind should be considered the same.

IMHO it all has to do with character and nothin else.

I think you wanted to post in this thread - http://www.thaivisa....25#entry4238122

I hope that this thread will not degenerate into a repeat of that thread...

For my part, I prefer the term 'malady', or 'illness', or 'sickness' but there we are.

IMHO drinking a lot affects your desire for alcohol, and therefore it clearly is not just a matter of will power, but also something physical which is damaged by the alcohol. And I expect drugs, tobacco, coffee etc are the same.

Of course, some of us have character defects which we address through drink, or whatever, and any programme, however many steps it takes, which addresses these character defects, will help us avoid alcohol and drunkenness, or drugs, or solace in the arms of ladies of the night, or going out looking for fisticuffs, or driving too fast, or whatever our anti-social behaviour might be.

Anyway, there's probably no such thing as psychological illness, and they should all just pull themselves together and stop whinging.

SC

EDIT: It's probably just a conspiracy by the guys that invented psychiatry because they couldn't make it as doctors

No,I didn't want to post in the topic you mentions as I wasn't aware of that topic,I drink too much is not my frequent forum,but the because OP called it a disease.

But as you say this " IMHO drinking a lot affects your desire for alcohol, and therefore it clearly is not just a matter of will power " you contradict yourself.Desire is will power is character.

I'm not English native but to me character translates as having the will power to say yes or no.

[StreetCowboy]

If alcoholism is considered a disease then every drug addict or addict of any kind should be considered the same.

IMHO it all has to do with character and nothin else.

I think you wanted to post in this thread - http://www.thaivisa....25#entry4238122

I hope that this thread will not degenerate into a repeat of that thread...

For my part, I prefer the term 'malady', or 'illness', or 'sickness' but there we are.

IMHO drinking a lot affects your desire for alcohol, and therefore it clearly is not just a matter of will power, but also something physical which is damaged by the alcohol. And I expect drugs, tobacco, coffee etc are the same.

Of course, some of us have character defects which we address through drink, or whatever, and any programme, however many steps it takes, which addresses these character defects, will help us avoid alcohol and drunkenness, or drugs, or solace in the arms of ladies of the night, or going out looking for fisticuffs, or driving too fast, or whatever our anti-social behaviour might be.

Anyway, there's probably no such thing as psychological illness, and they should all just pull themselves together and stop whinging.

SC

EDIT: It's probably just a conspiracy by the guys that invented psychiatry because they couldn't make it as doctors; most of them were Jewish, as well... or worse still, teetotal.

No,I didn't want to post in the topic you mentions as I wasn't aware of that topic,I drink too much is not my frequent forum,but the because OP called it a disease.

But as you say this " IMHO drinking a lot affects your desire for alcohol, and therefore it clearly is not just a matter of will power " you contradict yourself.Desire is will power is character.

I'm not English native but to me character translates as having the will power to say yes or no.

Hunger affects your desire for food. Having worms affects your hunger, and it is a medical condition - an illness (disease, if you like).

A high metabolic rate affects how quickly you become hungry - entirely physically. A person with a high metabolic rate will feel hungry quicker than one with a lower metabolic rate. Entirely metabolic / physical / will-power.

The same with people who have eroded the channels of alcoholism into themselves.

Desire is affected by physical things, as well as intellectual things.

Anyway, some people would say that intellectual illness was illness, nonetheless.

And I believe that willpower is the ability to resist desire. If we had no desire for something, we would not need willpower to resist it. I have no desire to skydive, and whenever I am offered that opportunity, I do not really feel that much willpower is required to resist it. Were you to offer me an extra wafer-thin mint, I might consider, and in some cases, resist through the will power - the ability to resist hunger and temptation, bearing in mind the long term risks of obesity and explosion. Were you to offer me a drink, similarly' Were you to offer me a second drink, I would be suffering from intoxication and also craving.,..

SC

[kerryk]

"A young recruit goes into combat for the first time. He hears shooting and sees death all around him. Kind of like an alcoholic sees the destruction that booze created in his life. The young soldier can debate all of the orders he receives. He can think about all the commands from higher up and debate the validity of the instructions. Or, he can place his trust in the grizzled old sergeant who has seen many wars. That old sergeant becomes his higher power. He puts absolute faith in the man. He gives up his free will and tells the sarge, “you tell me to do it and I will do it.” One soldier who is an intellectual thinks he can figure it out by himself. When the sergeant tells the troops to “hit the dirt.” The intellectual thinks about the mines that might be planted in the soil and looks before he takes cover. The other who considers the sarge his higher power takes cover immediately. The intellectual gets shot and the soldier who has given up his free will remains alive. It is kind of like that."

Based upon my experience as a soldier in combat, during training recruits are "conditioned" to obey orders. They are also trained that legally they are required to obey "all legal orders". They are also "conditioned" on how to react to combat situations.

Once in 'real' combat, they learn their best chance of survival is by learning what the experienced soldiers do. When faced with 'incoming rounds (bullets, rockets, mortars, etc.), they 'react' instantly without waiting for a sergeant or anything to tell them. Soldiers quickly learn that some sergeants, Lieutenants, Captains, etc. are complete idiots and will get you killed in a heartbeat.

The reality that any soldier in combat learns, is that fate has more to do with your survival than anything else. Special Ops (Rangers, Special Forces, Delta, Seals, Force Recon, etc.) are probably the best trained combat soldiers in the world, but many of them bleed and die just like the dumbest private or gyrine in the military.

During my years of military service, I have never found any soldier who believed that Sergeants, etc were any form of "higher power".

That my experience (as a retired Captain).

RickThai

Be that as it may did you understand my point that a higher power in AA does not have to be a God or supreme being type of entity?

[janverbeem]

No,I didn't want to post in the topic you mentions as I wasn't aware of that topic,I drink too much is not my frequent forum,but the because OP called it a disease.

But as you say this " IMHO drinking a lot affects your desire for alcohol, and therefore it clearly is not just a matter of will power " you contradict yourself.Desire is will power is character.

I'm not English native but to me character translates as having the will power to say yes or no.

Hunger affects your desire for food. Having worms affects your hunger, and it is a medical condition - an illness (disease, if you like).

A high metabolic rate affects how quickly you become hungry - entirely physically. A person with a high metabolic rate will feel hungry quicker than one with a lower metabolic rate. Entirely metabolic / physical / will-power.

The same with people who have eroded the channels of alcoholism into themselves.

Desire is affected by physical things, as well as intellectual things.

Anyway, some people would say that intellectual illness was illness, nonetheless.

And I believe that willpower is the ability to resist desire. If we had no desire for something, we would not need willpower to resist it. I have no desire to skydive, and whenever I am offered that opportunity, I do not really feel that much willpower is required to resist it. Were you to offer me an extra wafer-thin mint, I might consider, and in some cases, resist through the will power - the ability to resist hunger and temptation, bearing in mind the long term risks of obesity and explosion. Were you to offer me a drink, similarly' Were you to offer me a second drink, I would be suffering from intoxication and also craving.,..

SC

So in short,if you have the willpower your are able to resist the desire.

Willpower is nothing you are born with or something you can lose because of an infection ( disease ),it is something you build up yourself and you want it or you don't want it.

[StreetCowboy]

...Be that as it may did you understand my point that a higher power in AA does not have to be a God or supreme being type of entity?

Don't worry, don't ask how, it will be fine

If you can believe that, it will see you through. Most people need a higher power to convince themselves. If your highjer power is your own faith (credulity, stupidity, whatever) it will still work.

Go for it, mate. I would!

SC

[StreetCowboy]

...Be that as it may did you understand my point that a higher power in AA does not have to be a God or supreme being type of entity?

Don't worry, don't ask how, it will be fine

If you can believe that, it will see you through. Most people need a higher power to convince themselves. If your highjer power is your own faith (credulity, stupidity, whatever) it will still work.

Go for it, mate. I would!

SC

[moe666]

I donot think God , as most westerners precieve God, Cares.

[trisailer]

"Willpower is nothing you are born with or something you can lose because of an infection ( disease ),it is something you build up yourself and you want it or you don't want it."

I disagree. We are born with will power it is basic to our nature. We learn to make choices based on desire or fear. Substances interfere with that decision making and makes changes in the brain which hijack that ability. There is a well understood part of the brain where impulse control is located. It is possible to develop and strengthen impulse control.

[kerryk]

...Be that as it may did you understand my point that a higher power in AA does not have to be a God or supreme being type of entity?

Don't worry, don't ask how, it will be fine

If you can believe that, it will see you through. Most people need a higher power to convince themselves. If your highjer power is your own faith (credulity, stupidity, whatever) it will still work.

Go for it, mate. I would!

SC

I realize that but I was trying to explain to Mobi who responding to my text, “In case you are wondering I am a hard core atheist and I see no problem with having a higher power.” He wrote, “If that ain't the most perfect oxymoron (contradiction in terms) I have ever read, then I'd like to know one that is”

A lot of the posts in this thread have been about the religious (God) requirements in AA to go to meetings, get a sponsor and do the steps.

I was trying to point out that believing in a God is not a requirement of AA. A higher power may or may not be God, it's up to the individual.

[Mobi]

Mobi,

That is the reason I asked. I stated what I thought was your position so I could understand it.

Apparently you don't understand my ability to be an atheist and have a higher power. I don't know how I can make it clearer. A higher power does not have to be a God figure. It can be the people in AA or anything I choose it to be. It only has to be outside of myself. Like the young soldier trusts his sergeant I trust AA. For me it has nothing to do with God.

Do you understand that?

Of course I understand what you are saying about your Higher Power.

Do you really think I attended daily, sometimes twice daily sessions for years without hearing all this stuff and nonsense before ?

Yes, I have had countless long term alcoholics - all of whom all were more than 10 years sober, you'll be pleased to note - tell me that my High Power can be anything I wish it to be and that such a acceptance will not be at odds with atheism, or, in my case agnosticism. (Unlike you, I am not an atheist....)

The Chair of the very first AA meeting I attended said that his 'Higher Power' was the electric power grid; others have said that their Higher Power is such diverse things as the air, or gravity, or the train system or water system , and one even said it was his childhood Teddy Bear!!

It is all complete tosh of course.

In this (my) twisted alcoholic brain - at least I can respect those who believe in a Higher Power that is akin to a 'God-like' entity. I happen to believe they are misguided but I am not so arrogant and dogmatic as to be 100% sure they are wrong, even though every ounce of my intellect tells me that they are.

But this nonsense of the Higher Power being 'anything you choose it to be' in my humble opinion does a disservice to the spiritual aspects of AA and simply demonstrates it's weak underbelly; i.e the need to have alcoholics stay in the fold and to work the 12 steps, regardless of their spiritual beliefs - or lack of them. A bit like all that nonsense of 'faking it to make it'.

It simply reinforces my view that for most, The so-called Higher Power is a psychological crutch which alcoholics cling to in their efforts to remain sober.

But, Kerryk, if it works for you and others, then in the words of Mobi1kenobi: "May the 'Power be with you"

[Mobi]

I donot think God , as most westerners precieve God, Cares.

I have a huge amount of empathy with this point of view.

In fact it is this very point which has convinced me the the Higher Power aspects of AA and their 'teachings' that this High Power actually cares about you as an individual and will help you to remain sober you if you live a good life and work the 12 steps, is simply a 'step too far' in my book

• Is there some kind of Higher Being or Entity somewhere out there in the universe, about which we humans simply do not have the capacity to comprehend? Possibly.
  

• Does he/she/it care about me and my fellow human beings - who have developed over millions of years by survival of the fittest and by genetic accidents? Very, very, very unlikely....
  

[trisailer]

Stephen Hawking declared that there is no god and he has the bible thumpers all in a tizzy. It must be a full time job trying to maintain the illusion of god in the face of so much science.

I don't see any problem with people believing what they want, but it does get a little weird when they try to manage their lives with a myth.

Speaking of myth. I think it is very cool to learn about mythology, but it is like great art. We can appreciate it for what it says to us and how it helps our understanding of this human journey. It's like dreams that are the brains way of sorting things out, interesting but not very useful as a handbook.

Genetics has already mapped our history from a single cell organism and there is enough beauty and complexity in that to satisfy me.

[Mobi]

Stephen Hawking declared that there is no god and he has the bible thumpers all in a tizzy. It must be a full time job trying to maintain the illusion of god in the face of so much science.

I don't see any problem with people believing what they want, but it does get a little weird when they try to manage their lives with a myth.

Speaking of myth. I think it is very cool to learn about mythology, but it is like great art. We can appreciate it for what it says to us and how it helps our understanding of this human journey. It's like dreams that are the brains way of sorting things out, interesting but not very useful as a handbook.

Genetics has already mapped our history from a single cell organism and there is enough beauty and complexity in that to satisfy me.

Slightly off subject, but I often wonder when I see these learned Bishops and Cardinals from the Catholic and Anglican and other religious persuasions intoning their religious dogmas; what do they really believe, deep down, in this day and age?

We are not talking here about the low-educated holy fathers or missionaries in the far flung reaches of South America or Africa, we are talking here about some of the best brains of their generation. Many of them are highly intelligent, extremely well read intellectuals, who have spent their lives studying theology and keeping abreast of the latest scientific discoveries and developments into the understanding of the origins of the universe and the origins of man him self through the latest gene research.

Even recent archaeological discoveries in the Middle east are starting to debunk most of what has been written in the religious testaments - much to the consternation of many modern day religious scholars.

I hate conspiracy theories, but I am beginning to believe that there is one great conspiracy amongst today's religious leaders, be they Christian, Hebrew or Islam to protect the dogma and religious history of their faiths, even though many of them now know that much, if not all of their beliefs have been completely been discredited by modern scientific advances and discoveries.

But this is going off topic....

[kerryk]

Mobi,

I don't know how I could explain it any differently but I feel bad that I failed to allow you to grasp the concept. The reason I feel bad is because it is an important concept and without it AA is difficult to understand. Which is obvious from reading your posts. Not your fault I apparently don't have the tools necessary to facilitate your understanding.

I don't buy the religious stuff and I never had a divine revelation about AA or a higher power. For me it was a simple, logical step by step process.

But at least I do understand your “go it alone” attitude better. For most people it is the hard way so perhaps I am just intellectually lazy. I don't worry about things I can't control any more.

[Sheryl]

Speaking as a Moderator, please let's keep this civil and free from personalized digs, taunts etc. As well as unwarranted ethnic stereotyping and the like (you know who you are ).

Speaking as a poster, clearly neither the OP nor some of the others on this thread at all understand what Kerry has tried to explain. I also tried to explain this one time but for what it is worth, will try again.

A Higher Power is, by definition, not something your intellect is going to be able to understand, but it is, fortunately, something that can be directly experienced, and that experience is life-changing in all sorts of ways, not only in regard to only alcoholism or other addictions. Millions of people, throughout history and also today, have had this experience and live in direct relationship with a Higher Power. I know I do.

It is the experience that is transformative, not a theoretical belief. (Although it is necessary to open yourself up to the possibility of it to have the experience). Then from that point forward, what matters is how you relate to the HP, i.e. to what extent you let it guide you as opposed to letting your ego/self-will take the reins.

Intellectual views of no use whatsoever in this regard. And attachment to such views, whether it is attachment to a view about a Higher Power or attachment to the view that no such thing exists, are rooted in ego and very counterproductive.

So while it may sound ridiculous to hear that people could let the various odd things "be" their higher power, it actually is not since what matters is what it is not: it is not your self-will. Putting that aside is what lets the light in. If in order to be able to do that a person has to have some sort of concept in mind about what the Higher Power is (and it seems many Westerners do) then fine, it can be imagined as a teddy bear or any other %!&$ thing. Just as long as it is understood to be a power outside the ego-centered self...and outside the dogmatic views of that self.

This is an issue that has a lot of importance well beyond alcoholism. My personal exposure to 12-step programs was in the form of Al-Anon rather than AA and my experience of a Higher Power came well before that, although I found the 12 steps to have something valuable to offer that augmented my other spiritual practices. Which do not, BTW, involve what most people mean by a "God".

I am not saying all this to try to persuade the OP, he has clearly made his own decision with regard to this. But I would like others reading this to know that neither AA nor other 12 step programs require any sort of belief in God and that much of what has been written here by people who have not ever experienced a "Higher Power" is an inaccurate reflection of what all that is really about.

[Sheryl]

A flaming post and then a flaming reply to it have both been deleted.

[trisailer]

"Self examination, meditation and prayer is what staying sober is all about. you know nothing all dude. i'm trying to work on 2 of these and hopefully can stop drinking this year"

A drowning man will grab onto anything to save himself. Do what works for you.