ManU In Decline?

[Bredbury Blue]

See Mr. Ed, the goalscoring talking horse, is on the way out - are you happy with that?

[dantilley]

I wouldn't be, he's one of the best out and out goalscorers in the world.

[redrus]

As posted in Ruud goes jome thread.

Setanta Sports:

European Soccer Correspondent Graeme Hunter explained the incident that caused Manchester United manager Sir Alex Ferguson to drop his star striker.

"In January, Ruud van Nistelrooy and Cristiano Ronaldo, who literally cannot stand the sight of each other, traded punches in training, and van Nistelrooy left Ronaldo with a broken face.

"On Sunday, van Nistelrooy was not named in the Manchester United team, and as we all now know, he walks out.

"The roots are from a serious bust-up on the training pitch the day before, over a perennial row between the two. Ronaldo held onto the ball too long in training, and van Nistelrooy asked again: "Why do you keep onto the ball, why don't you pass to me? I am in position, I am the striker. Get the ball to me."

Hunter went on: "Ronaldo gives van Nistelrooy some lip, it ends up in a fight, and van Nistelrooy as he always does, needles into Ronaldo, and says "Yeah, yeah, go running to your Dad."

"He means Carlos Quieroz, Ferguson's assistant. Ronaldo's own father had died during the season, and finally, in the face of this abuse, Ronaldo burst into tears on the pitch and shouts "I don't have a Dad, he's dead.

"It is not necessarily the end for van Nistelrooy, because he is the goalscorer, and Ferguson still wants four strikers at the club.

"What Sir Alex may not know is that Cristiano Ronaldo is dead set on leaving Manchester United this summer, if Madrid will buy him. He personally has had enough of Manchester United, and English football. So, it may be that we are left with Ronaldo saying that he wants to go, and that van Nistelrooy and Ferguson may make their peace."

redrus

[lampard10]

, and van Nistelrooy left Ronaldo with a broken face.

redrus

I've just started liking Van Nastleroy..............a little.

[mrbojangles]

, and van Nistelrooy left Ronaldo with a broken face.

redrus

I've just started liking Van Nastleroy..............a little.

Me too, funnily enough.

[redrus]

, and van Nistelrooy left Ronaldo with a broken face.

redrus

I've just started liking Van Nastleroy..............a little.

Me too, funnily enough.

LOL ,

I'd hate him if he wasn't at United, I do know where youz are coming from....

redrus

[jjp]

As for Van Nist, great player and goalscorer but since Becks left he for me anyway is not the same player. Still scores but he thrived on balls in the box from Becks and Ronaldo hasn't got the same vision but in time he will get there.

When he was dropped for Saha (who i dont think is the answer) he should have got his head down and worked his socks off. The matches lately seems to suggest Van Nist couldn't be arsed. Hope he stays and gets his head down and works hard but it seems the writing is on the wall. As far as i can see there isn't many goalscorers out there who can fill his boots.

Where's Garry Birtles when you need him

I see that we were joint top scorers in the prem along with Chelsea. If we get the midfield sorted with a Keno type player we should give Chelsea a run next season. Should be an intersting season?

[redrus]

As for Van Nist, great player and goalscorer but since Becks left he for me anyway is not the same player. Still scores but he thrived on balls in the box from Becks and Ronaldo hasn't got the same vision but in time he will get there.

When he was dropped for Saha (who i dont think is the answer) he should have got his head down and worked his socks off. The matches lately seems to suggest Van Nist couldn't be arsed. Hope he stays and gets his head down and works hard but it seems the writing is on the wall. As far as i can see there isn't many goalscorers out there who can fill his boots.

Where's Garry Birtles when you need him

I see that we were joint top scorers in the prem along with Chelsea. If we get the midfield sorted with a Keno type player we should give Chelsea a run next season. Should be an intersting season?

So, to the question, who would you rather keep now......? Ruud or, Ronaldo....?

redrus

[lampard10]

As for Van Nist, great player and goalscorer but since Becks left he for me anyway is not the same player. Still scores but he thrived on balls in the box from Becks and Ronaldo hasn't got the same vision but in time he will get there.

When he was dropped for Saha (who i dont think is the answer) he should have got his head down and worked his socks off. The matches lately seems to suggest Van Nist couldn't be arsed. Hope he stays and gets his head down and works hard but it seems the writing is on the wall. As far as i can see there isn't many goalscorers out there who can fill his boots.

Where's Garry Birtles when you need him

I see that we were joint top scorers in the prem along with Chelsea. If we get the midfield sorted with a Keno type player we should give Chelsea a run next season. Should be an intersting season?

So, to the question, who would you rather keep now......? Ruud or, Ronaldo....?

redrus

Ronaldo of course..............................Ruud's a far better player.

Although I think I'd swap either of them for Robben.

Edited May 13, 2006 by lampard10

[jjp]

As for Van Nist, great player and goalscorer but since Becks left he for me anyway is not the same player. Still scores but he thrived on balls in the box from Becks and Ronaldo hasn't got the same vision but in time he will get there.

When he was dropped for Saha (who i dont think is the answer) he should have got his head down and worked his socks off. The matches lately seems to suggest Van Nist couldn't be arsed. Hope he stays and gets his head down and works hard but it seems the writing is on the wall. As far as i can see there isn't many goalscorers out there who can fill his boots.

Where's Garry Birtles when you need him

I see that we were joint top scorers in the prem along with Chelsea. If we get the midfield sorted with a Keno type player we should give Chelsea a run next season. Should be an intersting season?

So, to the question, who would you rather keep now......? Ruud or, Ronaldo....?

redrus

well Redus, thats a hard one, Both if possible . Short term Ruud, who has probally got 2 seasons in him and Ronaldo is only 22 or whatever so i see where you are coming from but for the long term i would have to say Ronaldo. We would probally get 6 or 7 seasons from Ronaldo and i know he show boats and is greedy sometimes but there is no doubting he can be world class.

I have a feeling Fergie might keep Ruud and this is his way to say to Ruud that you have to fight for your place if you are not playing well enough and when you are dropped you have to get on with it and take it like a man. Only a few players over the years have had the right to walk in the team without much thought (Robbo, Hughesy, Keano etc) and Ruud should have got his head down and got on with it. Love Ruud cos he loves Utd and it would be sad to see him go. Hopefully they can sort it and work on catching Chelsea next season.

Lamps i wouldn't mind Gudjohnson though

Come on West Ham. Lets hope they can turn over the bindippers tonight!

[redrus]

As for Van Nist, great player and goalscorer but since Becks left he for me anyway is not the same player. Still scores but he thrived on balls in the box from Becks and Ronaldo hasn't got the same vision but in time he will get there.

When he was dropped for Saha (who i dont think is the answer) he should have got his head down and worked his socks off. The matches lately seems to suggest Van Nist couldn't be arsed. Hope he stays and gets his head down and works hard but it seems the writing is on the wall. As far as i can see there isn't many goalscorers out there who can fill his boots.

Where's Garry Birtles when you need him

I see that we were joint top scorers in the prem along with Chelsea. If we get the midfield sorted with a Keno type player we should give Chelsea a run next season. Should be an intersting season?

So, to the question, who would you rather keep now......? Ruud or, Ronaldo....?

redrus

well Redus, thats a hard one, Both if possible . Short term Ruud, who has probally got 2 seasons in him and Ronaldo is only 22 or whatever so i see where you are coming from but for the long term i would have to say Ronaldo. We would probally get 6 or 7 seasons from Ronaldo and i know he show boats and is greedy sometimes but there is no doubting he can be world class.

I have a feeling Fergie might keep Ruud and this is his way to say to Ruud that you have to fight for your place if you are not playing well enough and when you are dropped you have to get on with it and take it like a man. Only a few players over the years have had the right to walk in the team without much thought (Robbo, Hughesy, Keano etc) and Ruud should have got his head down and got on with it. Love Ruud cos he loves Utd and it would be sad to see him go. Hopefully they can sort it and work on catching Chelsea next season.

Lamps i wouldn't mind Gudjohnson though

Come on West Ham. Lets hope they can turn over the bindippers tonight!

Ronaldo for me, Ruud seems to upsetting the apple cart too much. I hope it gets sorted and, they both stay. I can't see it though.

Gudjohnson for me too.

Using the World Cup to display his wares.

It appears that he will not be hurried into a quick move to a team such as Atletico Madrid and will use the World Cup to display to show his talents after being booted out by Fergie.

United, by all accounts would prefer a quick sale so to give them more muscle and prepare new signings for next year.

His Holland manager, Marco Van Basten: "Maybe it will help us that a great striker of the calibre of Ruud van Nistelrooy feels hurt and angry prior to appearing in the World Cup finals. This can be a good thing for us."

Read between the lines here - a quote from Roy Keane: "I don’t think it is right for me to comment on the Ruud situation. I’m not at the club any more and I don’t know the goings-on. But I get on quite well with Ruud and who knows?

"That's life. We all have our paths to go down. It's not for me to comment on Ruud's situation, but I know there are two sides to every story."

The Sun:

Ruud van Nistelrooy is demanding £4.5million to leave Manchester United.

The Dutch striker, 29, is furious at his treatment, having effectively been told by the club he is no longer wanted.

But United will have a real battle if they think they can just move him whenever and to wherever they want.

The striker will not ask for a transfer so is entitled to a pay-off for the last two years of his contract.

It appears that he will not be hurried into a quick move to a team such as Atletico Madrid and will use the World Cup to display to show his talents after being booted out by Fergie.

United, by all accounts would prefer a quick sale so to give them more muscle and prepare new signings for next year.

His Holland manager, Marco Van Basten: "Maybe it will help us that a great striker of the calibre of Ruud van Nistelrooy feels hurt and angry prior to appearing in the World Cup finals. This can be a good thing for us."

Read between the lines here - a quote from Roy Keane: "I don’t think it is right for me to comment on the Ruud situation. I’m not at the club any more and I don’t know the goings-on. But I get on quite well with Ruud and who knows?

"That's life. We all have our paths to go down. It's not for me to comment on Ruud's situation, but I know there are two sides to every story."

The Sun:

Ruud van Nistelrooy is demanding £4.5million to leave Manchester United.

The Dutch striker, 29, is furious at his treatment, having effectively been told by the club he is no longer wanted.

But United will have a real battle if they think they can just move him whenever and to wherever they want.

The striker will not ask for a transfer so is entitled to a pay-off for the last two years of his contract.

redrus

[Bredbury Blue]

Hi there all you Man City fans (OK, hi there MR BJ) and all you non-believers out there, hope you like me are glad the WC is over with for another 4 years and we'll soon be back to the real stuff.

Last season we had City, Bolton and Everton here to play Thailand - anybody know who's coming this year?

As for Manure, see its nothing but harmony at present in your camp - good start to the season, ha!

[redrus]

As for Manure, see its nothing but harmony at present in your camp - good start to the season, ha!

Good to see you back fella, and I mean that.........

Yeah yeah, harmony or not, lets get the real chuffin show on the road eh. Thank the Good Lord for weekly football..........

redrus

[mrbojangles]

Hi there all you Man City fans (OK, hi there MR BJ) and all you non-believers out there, hope you like me are glad the WC is over with for another 4 years and we'll soon be back to the real stuff.

Last season we had City, Bolton and Everton here to play Thailand - anybody know who's coming this year?

As for Manure, see its nothing but harmony at present in your camp - good start to the season, ha!

Good to have you back Bred

There are few more you know, oblivious, gabriel and angie are others that spring to mind

[redrus]

Hi there all you Man City fans (OK, hi there MR BJ) and all you non-believers out there, hope you like me are glad the WC is over with for another 4 years and we'll soon be back to the real stuff.

Last season we had City, Bolton and Everton here to play Thailand - anybody know who's coming this year?

As for Manure, see its nothing but harmony at present in your camp - good start to the season, ha!

Good to have you back Bred

There are few more you know, oblivious, gabriel and angie are others that spring to mind

Oh, and Paul "get that" Dicov. How could you forget him.!?

Don't think he's posting though, just lurkin/goal hangin.....

redrus

[Bredbury Blue]

So who's coming to Bangkok to play thailand in that Tourni, anybody know (enjoyed my night out for the games there last season)?

[nev]

welcome back bred blue.

[mrbojangles]

Heard this morning that Man U have turned down a bid for Horse face. They reckon he's worth £50m No way, Hose

BTW, congrats to Man U on beating The Kaiser Cheifs yesterday 1-0

Edited July 19, 2006 by mrbojangles

[Bredbury Blue]

Apparently "TOTTENHAM HOTSPUR have denied reports that the club are planning a pre-season tour of Hong Kong or Thailand after reports in the Bangkok press suggested", so who's coming then - anybody?

[redrus]

Apparently "TOTTENHAM HOTSPUR have denied reports that the club are planning a pre-season tour of Hong Kong or Thailand after reports in the Bangkok press suggested", so who's coming then - anybody?

BBC link for friendlies.

Can't see owt over Asia way, BB. Osasuna are playing in Scotland though....

Think everyones missed out this season mate. If I see anything new I'll post it.

redrus

*doesn't cover August though, only till 24th July so, maybe.......

Edited July 19, 2006 by redrus

[mrbojangles]

Can't see owt over Asia way, BB. Osasuna are playing in Scotland though....

Bred, Man City travel to China for the World Series Tournament in August. Might be a bit far or expensive. Although my mate often comes from China to LOS to catch up with me and i do visa versa.

The Blues will play Shanghai Shenhua at 8.30pm local time on Friday August 4th, then they take on Kashima Antlers of Japan two days later, with a 6.15pm kick off. Both games take place in Shanghai’s Hong Kou Stadium.

Tickets, priced at £32 each, are on sale now at the Box Office at the City of Manchester Stadium, or can be ordered over the phone on 0870 062 1894 (select option 1). Telephone orders are subject to a booking fee.

A match ticket entitles the holder to attend both matches on that day.

Tournament Draw:

Friday August 4

Atletico de Madrid v Kashima Antlers

Kick-off at 6.15pm

Shanghai Shenhua v Manchester City

Kick-off at 8.30pm

Sunday August 6

Manchester City v Kashima Antlers

Kick-off at 6.15pm

Shanghai Shenhua v Atletico de Madrid

Kick-off at 8.30pm

Edited July 19, 2006 by mrbojangles

[Bredbury Blue]

Mr BJ

Thanks for your personal message. did you get mine, i had problems posting it, but for your answer google wikipedia + manchester city + stars.

[jjp]

Can't see owt over Asia way, BB. Osasuna are playing in Scotland though....

Bred, Man City travel to China for the World Series Tournament in August. Might be a bit far or expensive. Although my mate often comes from China to LOS to catch up with me and i do visa versa.

The Blues will play Shanghai Shenhua at 8.30pm local time on Friday August 4th, then they take on Kashima Antlers of Japan two days later, with a 6.15pm kick off. Both games take place in Shanghai’s Hong Kou Stadium.

Tickets, priced at £32 each, are on sale now at the Box Office at the City of Manchester Stadium, or can be ordered over the phone on 0870 062 1894 (select option 1). Telephone orders are subject to a booking fee.

A match ticket entitles the holder to attend both matches on that day.

Tournament Draw:

Friday August 4

Atletico de Madrid v Kashima Antlers

Kick-off at 6.15pm

Shanghai Shenhua v Manchester City

Kick-off at 8.30pm

Sunday August 6

Manchester City v Kashima Antlers

Kick-off at 6.15pm

Shanghai Shenhua v Atletico de Madrid

Kick-off at 8.30pm

Mr B That was a MASSIVE thread mate

wikipedia + manchester city + stars.

Bred Blue No such things at City

Ask Mr Anelka

Even City players didn't want to be there

Anelka

“I ended up joining a club (Manchester City) against my will."

[Bredbury Blue]

Ah Nicolas, ever the diplomat and team-player, eh. Now there's one of those talented men who could do with a drop of the Dickov 'make the best of what you've got' spirit!

So when are Manure going to buy some players - and who will it / they be? Don't tell me Fergie's going to go in to the new season without reinforcements - god help you if he does!

[jjp]

Ah Nicolas, ever the diplomat and team-player, eh. Now there's one of those talented men who could do with a drop of the Dickov 'make the best of what you've got' spirit!

So when are Manure going to buy some players - and who will it / they be? Don't tell me Fergie's going to go in to the new season without reinforcements - god help you if he does!

Bred Blue

i heard on the grapvine that we are going to sign

Bryan Robson And Remi Moses from West Brom and Frank Stapleton from Arsenal

Also a little dane called Jesper Olsen. I also heard Garry Birtles wants to make a return.

Help! What year is it again

Remember we have got Darren Fletcher, Liam Miller, John O'shea as our midfield and that Dong fella from China.

European teams must be shaking in their boots

[jjp]

Tournament Draw:

Friday August 4

Atletico de Madrid v Kashima Antlers

Kick-off at 6.15pm

Shanghai Shenhua v Manchester City

Kick-off at 8.30pm

Sunday August 6

Manchester City v Kashima Antlers

Kick-off at 6.15pm

Shanghai Shenhua v Atletico de Madrid

Kick-off at 8.30pm

Bredblue these matches are live on UBC supersport

see link

http://www.ubctv.com/Schedule/thai/Schedule_live_th.aspx

[Bredbury Blue]

JIP, Outstanding research - thanks. And Remi Moses, that made me laugh, cheers. Nice to see Reds have a sense of humour.

[mrbojangles]

Kaiser Chiefs beat United on saturday

City beat Rochdale in a friendly, i think it's now certain we'll be in Europe next year

[Bredbury Blue]

Those of you who have been with this topic since the start, should remember that I as its instigator, firmly believe that ManUre are on the slippery slope following many decent years, kind of reminiscent of the decline ManUre went in to just before relegation in 1974 (brings a warm glow just thinking about it now). Don’t get me wrong, they won’t get relegated – it’s a different game and era now, and its highly unlikely that any of the big money teams will ever have to suffer relegation again – but these are increasingly becoming difficult years for ManUre and as I have repeatedly said, finding a successor to Old Red Nose will definitely mirror the tremendous task they had in replacing Busby!

From reading today’s Guardian online, it would seem I’m not alone, read this excellent article – it made my day, bet it won’t make yours if you’re a dirty red!

Bredbury Blue (lovin’ it!)

Shredding his legacy at every turn

Sir Alex Ferguson's brilliance famously knocked Liverpool off their perch. Now his incompetence is doing the same to Manchester United. How did it come to this, wonders Rob Smyth

Monday July 31, 2006

Guardian Unlimited

It was John Cleese, in Clockwise, who said: "I can take the despair. It's the hope I can't stand." Manchester United fans would beg to differ. Usually, the best thing about pre-season is the hope: reality's incisors have yet to pierce the gums of optimism, and fans can live off the balmy, often barmy belief that this is their year. For supporters of most of the other 91 English clubs, that's the mood right now. For United fans? Forget it. After three seasons of papering over the cracks, it seems most United fans are awaiting the moment that the fault lines tracing a veiny path across Old Trafford are exposed.

Almost everything about the club reeks of disarray. Owned by the Glazers, who push buttons from a remote hideaway like Dr Evil; run by a manager who shreds his legacy at every turn; almost exclusively represented by the inadequate (Darren Fletcher and Kieran Richardson) and the odious (Rio Ferdinand); unable to close a deal for West Brom's reserve keeper, never mind the new Roy Keane. The signing of Michael Carrick, a Pirlo when a Gattuso was needed, is a band aid for a bullet wound, and a ludicrously expensive one at that.

If anything, it's a surprise that United have bought anyone at all. This summer, they have been like a pathetic drunk lumbering across a dancefloor at 1.45am, trying to get off with everything that moves. No matter how many people they move in for - and if reports are to be believed, United have made offers for dozens of players - nobody wants to go near them. And the one person who surely would, Damien Duff, was allowed to slip into the arms of Newcastle for less than United paid for Patrice Evra. You couldn't make it up. You don't have to.

United finished second last season, but that said more about the deficiency of the Premiership than their own. Arsenal will not have a four-month blind spot this season, while all evidence suggests that Liverpool's gradient will continue on its upward trajectory. With Tottenham getting stronger, even with the loss of Carrick, it is entirely conceivable that, if they start slowly, United could finish fifth; in today's environment, that would be disastrous.

The problems are so obvious, so fundamental, as to be beggar belief that they have not been addressed. Just as the glory years of 1992 to 2001 will only fully be appreciated in 20 years' time, so will Ferguson's subsequent failure. It is particularly bewildering that a man who once exerted such an unyielding grip on every single aspect of the club that he had to be virtually coerced into delegating has let things slip to this extent. Take the Cristiano Ronaldo situation: Ferguson said recently that he had not even spoken to Ronaldo since the World Cup, a staggering dereliction of duty that is in total contrast to the us-against-the-world protection that he gave to David Beckham - and for which, for a time, he was so thrillingly rewarded - in 1998.

Once upon a time Ferguson could play 'who blinks first' with fate and win every time, his iron will shaping his destiny exactly as he wanted. Now he is reduced to uttering garbage like "it's like having a new signing" of Paul Scholes, Ole Solskjaer, Gabriel Heinze and Alan Smith, the irrational if-I-say-it-enough-it-might-happen gibberish you'd associate with a serial loser like Kevin Keegan. These days, the man they call The Hairdryer is full of nothing but hot air.

Ferguson's squad, once so taut, is a baggy mess of has-beens, never-will-bes and Liam Miller. The simple repetition of 4-4-2, of Giggs, Scholes, Keane, Beckham, Cole and Yorke, has given way to myriad tactical and personnel changes, to a ruinous obsession with utility players and tinkering. It's a truly appalling fact that, with Ruud van Nistelrooy gone, none of United's outfield players have played in only one position at the club. A nadir was reached in the FA Cup game at Wolves last season, when nearly £60m of defensive and attacking talent (Ferdinand and Wayne Rooney) was used in the centre of midfield.

It is an increasingly inescapable conclusion that, unwittingly or otherwise, Ferguson is winding down, a prizefighter who no longer has the stomach or the wit for an admittedly enormous challenge which, once upon a time, he would have fervently inhaled. Like he did with Liverpool. Ferguson's almost maniacal yearning to "knock Liverpool off their ######ing perch" was arguably the single most important factor in United's 1990s renaissance. It makes it all the more vicious an irony that, 10 years later, he should knock United off the perch he had made for them through increasingly rank mismanagement.

Indeed, it must irk him beyond belief that United are making exactly the same mistakes that Liverpool did: lack of pheromones in the transfer market; laughable, fall-back signings at suspicious and ridiculous prices; deluded ramblings ("we are as good as Chelsea, no question") - and, worst of all, a dressing-room where playing the field seems as important as playing the game. Liverpool's Spice Boys were bad, but they have nothing on Merk Berks like Ferdinand, Richardson and Wes Brown.

Ferguson has taken this end-of-an-empire template and, incredibly, managed to develop it: he's added a sprawling, outsized squad chock-full of obscenely well-paid deadwood; insultingly obvious spin that a two-year-old could see through (the Van Nistelrooy saga); economy with the truth (Ferguson ridiculed a journalist for saying that Paul Scholes had been scouting for United; a few days later Scholes confirmed the story); a coaching set-up that had Wayne Rooney playing wide for a season and turned Ronaldo from the world's most thrilling off-the-wall talent into a run-of-the-mill winger.

Ferguson, an essentially honourable man, is partly suffering because of the impossibly high standards he set, and he carries the fatigued incomprehension of a man who is out of time. When he cites his favourite United team it is not the Treble-winners of 1999, but the Double-winners of 1994: Schmeichel, Bruce, Pallister, Ince, Keane, Hughes, Cantona, Robson - a team that dripped masculinity, who bonded over blockbusting Saturday-night sessions, who embodied the old-school values to which Ferguson can relate. Real men. The gentrification generation - sarong-wearing, pink champagne-swigging metrosexuals - are entirely beyond his comprehension. He could handle one, David Beckham, for a time before eventually giving up on him. Now he has a pack of them, for whom the hairdryer means only one thing - a trip to Toni & Guy. It is a different world. Ferguson probably doesn't even know what 'merk' means.

Everywhere, principles are being sacrificed. In years gone by Ferdinand - who for all his irrefutable ability is the type of character whose presence in a United shirt symbolises everything that has gone wrong with the club - would've been out the door faster than Paul Ince could say 'big-time Charlie', but now Ferguson can't afford to lose his only world-class defender. In years gone by he wouldn't have considered signing someone like Patrick Vieira, on grounds of age or character, but now he is left looking for someone, anyone, to appease the fans. In years gone by he would never have given a game to someone like John O'Shea, whose sole use is to put the podge in a hodgepodge midfield. In years gone by, he would never have sanctioned the mediocre football that, except for a few giddy weeks in the spring of 2003, United have played ever since Carlos Queiroz arrived in 2002 masquerading gobbledygook as continental sophistication.

And the thing is, it is only going to get worse: Liverpool, Arsenal and Tottenham have all made shrewd, cheap signings and are on an upward trajectory. United are going the other way: they are hugely dependent on Ferdinand and Rooney, but no amount of Carling Cup medals is going to sate their ambition. Then there is the Glazer factor, the full, inevitable horror of which is only just beginning to emerge. United fans think this season is going to be bad. It hasn't even started.

[redrus]

What a crock of drivle, Bred, did you write that <deleted>....!

redrus