Westerners Are Too Soft

[IanForbes]

It's a well known fact that many young Thai men follow the "love em and leave em" practise. They spread their seed everywhere with no concern for the consequences and very few young men wear condoms. Evidence of that are all the young Thai mothers with no husband and no means of support for their child. In North America, a woman can go after the father of her child for support. That is not the case in Thailand, and, that is the prime reason for all the prostitution. Thai authorities don't think it's their concern that Thai men take responsibility for leaving a trail of pregnant women behind.

'It's a well known fact' on expat forums, regularly trolled out by old fat western guys to justify their taking advantage of a plethora (some new on the block, some been around more and therefore more cynical) of poor women/boys.

I personally know of at least one good looking young Thai guy who took on not only a Thai woman 10 years his senior, but her four kids too.

And one of the reasons for this country's bewildering array of sexual services is precisely because you and your ilk constantly attempt to assuage your guilt by trotting out this very old chestnut, much akin to pertinent parts of your er, anatomy.

I would suggest you peel your arse off that bar stool in Soi Cowboy and stop relying on the deluded alcoholic ramblings that pass for information on Thai culture on, no, wait, ha ha, expat bloody forums!

So, you are saying that I am a liar or my personal experiences are not true? I ALSO know many responsible young Thai men. Many are my friends, and no, they DON'T leave pregnant girls and wives behind. But, that doesn't deny the many that do. Like I said, I personally know of at least 40 that have. I"ve got pictures of their children I've helped. All I am saying is the Thai government should pass and enforce laws that stop men from abandoning their children. Or, at least make them help support their children. Then just maybe Thailand would start to lose its tarnished image.

[Awohalitsiktoli]

Without question Thai women think Western men are too soft in terms of the way they treat women (in comparison to the way Thai men treat Thai women, which often involves screaming and beating). IMHO, they are correct. Thai women do take advantage of this flaw in Western men. I think the "flaw"stems from a true love/romance dream that never materialized back home, in addition to a desire to provide for and take care of her, to save her, to change her.....and all of the associated relationship BS that most of us were taught to embrace as what real men do. I, for one, am over all of that.

[Kilgore Trout]

Perhaps you are dismissing "empirical" evidence.

In order to be empirical evidence it has to be objective, which it is clearly not.

Only if you agree with Kuhn.

[Kwasaki]

Without question Thai women think Western men are too soft in terms of the way they treat women (in comparison to the way Thai men treat Thai women, which often involves screaming and beating). IMHO, they are correct. Thai women do take advantage of this flaw in Western men. I think the "flaw"stems from a true love/romance dream that never materialized back home, in addition to a desire to provide for and take care of her, to save her, to change her.....and all of the associated relationship BS that most of us were taught to embrace as what real men do. I, for one, am over all of that.

With respect IMO you are missing my point, or it's just my way of thinking through, see you too are making comparison, the OP question went on to get replies and insults about Thai men, my point is men are men soft or not whether they be Thai or Westerners has nothing to do with it.

If some Thai women think western men are soft , let em think that if they want, it's got nothing to do with Thai men being bad.

[Berkshire]

If by soft you mean more polite, considerate, better mannered and less selfish then I would agree (overall not every Westerner fits that picture, although most of the ones I have met living up country do)

I think he means that western men are generally weak, desperate, gullible, and clueless when it comes to Thai women. Which explains why so many get fleeced on such a routine basis. But of course, you can go on believing what you like if it makes you feel good about yourself.

[jackdawson]

"All I am saying is the Thai government should pass and enforce laws that stop men from abandoning their children. Or, at least make them help support their children."

this "white man's burden" stuff is so 1800s ; please leave it by the door before you come in .

[IanForbes]

"All I am saying is the Thai government should pass and enforce laws that stop men from abandoning their children. Or, at least make them help support their children."

this "white man's burden" stuff is so 1800s ; please leave it by the door before you come in .

It's not "white man's burden". It is respect for others whose lives you have changed by irresponsible actions. I suppose you would not have given women the right to vote either. That could ALSO

be called "white man's burden". When people do not believe in taking responsibility for their own actions then they are not much better than animals. I understand that Thailand is not going to change any time soon. I also know that many complaints I hear about Thailand are valid, but as foreigners who have no rights, we just have to live by the laws of Thailand as they are. Complaining about them will do no good. As a foreigner in Thailand all we can do is follow the laws, treat everyone with respect and know the pitfalls where we might get into trouble. Being forewarned is being forearmed. Had this forum been available when I first came to Thailand I might not have made some of the mistakes that I made. Then again, I might not have had such a rich life either.

[Beetlejuice]

I wouldn’t exactly describe Western men as soft. I would say desperate is more apt when it involves Thai women.

In the West unless we have wealth, young women consider men 50 and over as too old plus there is a taboo regarding young women fornicating and forming romantic partnerships with men old enough to be their fathers or grandfathers.

Therefore the older farang men living in Thailand, if they acquire themselves a younger Thai wife or girlfriend will do anything to keep them appeased, happy and contented, because most of these types of old farang man falls in lust or love with young Thai woman relationships are based on finance and giving the woman status within her community. If the old farang man does not live up to her expectations then there is a chance that the women may stray off or become dissatisfied with the relationship. Hence the Western men gain a reputation as being soft.

[Kilgore Trout]

"All I am saying is the Thai government should pass and enforce laws that stop men from abandoning their children. Or, at least make them help support their children."

this "white man's burden" stuff is so 1800s ; please leave it by the door before you come in .

It's not "white man's burden". It is respect for others whose lives you have changed by irresponsible actions. I suppose you would not have given women the right to vote either. That could ALSO

be called "white man's burden". When people do not believe in taking responsibility for their own actions then they are not much better than animals. I understand that Thailand is not going to change any time soon. I also know that many complaints I hear about Thailand are valid, but as foreigners who have no rights, we just have to live by the laws of Thailand as they are. Complaining about them will do no good. As a foreigner in Thailand all we can do is follow the laws, treat everyone with respect and know the pitfalls where we might get into trouble. Being forewarned is being forearmed. Had this forum been available when I first came to Thailand I might not have made some of the mistakes that I made. Then again, I might not have had such a rich life either.

The idea that you have "no" rights is a misnomer perpetuated by Thais who take advantage of foreigners and Thai apologists.

In many instances we do not have "equal" rights but we do have rights nonetheless.

As this is Thailand, it is up to you to find out what those rights are and how to stand up for them even when everyone is telling you that you are wrong.

You still must be wise though, and choose your battles carefully.

[transam]

"westerners are (too) soft"

true .

many / most farang in thailand are at least pom pui (overweight) if not uh one (fat) ; i mean , look at the size of those beer bellies

whereas thai guys r generally (much) more fit

Hmmmmmmmmm, strange that most of my chums in LOS don't match the crowd you mix with.

Thai guys ''fit'', or slim l think you mean, if we ate the ''mush'' or just highly spiced stuff they eat, which has no volume whatsoever then l think we would all be slim eh.

[Thongkorn]

Strength in silence.

[Awohalitsiktoli]

Without question Thai women think Western men are too soft in terms of the way they treat women (in comparison to the way Thai men treat Thai women, which often involves screaming and beating). IMHO, they are correct. Thai women do take advantage of this flaw in Western men. I think the "flaw"stems from a true love/romance dream that never materialized back home, in addition to a desire to provide for and take care of her, to save her, to change her.....and all of the associated relationship BS that most of us were taught to embrace as what real men do. I, for one, am over all of that.

With respect IMO you are missing my point, or it's just my way of thinking through, see you too are making comparison, the OP question went on to get replies and insults about Thai men, my point is men are men soft or not whether they be Thai or Westerners has nothing to do with it.

If some Thai women think western men are soft , let em think that if they want, it's got nothing to do with Thai men being bad.

I respectfully disagree. Thai women learn what is "soft" or "hard" behavior by role models: Thai men (father, brother, husband, friend, etc). That is what they use to compare Western men too. And I strongly disagree if you are implying there is no difference between the way Thai men treat Thai women and farangs treat Thai women. But, we can agree to disagree.

[Berkshire]

"All I am saying is the Thai government should pass and enforce laws that stop men from abandoning their children. Or, at least make them help support their children."

this "white man's burden" stuff is so 1800s ; please leave it by the door before you come in .

I've always found this to be one (of many) contradictions I hear from farangs in Thailand. No knock on you Ian, because I know you mean well, but I'm sure you've heard the endless stories from farang men about how the western system is stacked against fathers, how farang men get taken to the cleaners by greedy ex-wives, the child support, alimony, yada yada yada. (violin playing in the background).

Yet, farangs complain that the Thai government is not doing enough. [And when discussing these types of issues, these same guys have no problem taking credit for doing essentially what their government is forcing them to do, i.e., to be "responsible" parents.] So which is the better system? Rhetorical question, of course, because it would depend on who has the most to gain (or lose).

[MiG16]

this may sound overly simplistic to you all, but its the truth

there are thai men who are nice and polite

just as there are farang men who are complete jerks and treat women bad

and there are also the opposite of the above

Im sure each of us have met all the above. Ive met more farang men that treat women bad than I have personally met thai men that do. but I also hear enough stories about the good farang men, and vice versa about the bad thai men.

its just human nature.

by the way, lets not make this a personal vendetta against any member with different views and experiences to our own. keep the discussion civil - no personal attacks please

[Berkshire]

this may sound overly simplistic to you all, but its the truth

there are thai men who are nice and polite

just as there are farang men who are complete jerks and treat women bad

and there are also the opposite of the above

Im sure each of us have met all the above. Ive met more farang men that treat women bad than I have personally met thai men that do. but I also hear enough stories about the good farang men, and vice versa about the bad thai men.

its just human nature.

by the way, lets not make this a personal vendetta against any member with different views and experiences to our own. keep the discussion civil - no personal attacks please

You speaketh the truth. I always appreciate a balanced view.

[regine]

I said "many" not "all" Thai men. I speak only from experience over the past 15 years of coming to Thailand. To deny what I said is sticking your head in the sand. I personally know of at least 40 such cases in Thailand alone. It happens within the poor communities of all countries, but some countries have taken measures to control it to some degree.

Your experience and view of Thai men is skewed. I don't know where you are or who you choose to associate with in Thailand, that's your business, but in my experience and the experience of my Thai family and friends (who have been in Thailand much longer than your 15 years obviously) your experience is completely out of the ordinary. At least 40 cases? Doesn't that raise red flags to you? If I knew 40 singles mothers in my home country I wouldcertainly start reassessing my circle of friends.

You're basing your assumptions on your personal experienceand misinterpreting the data. Your experience doesn't say anything about "many"Thai men, it says something about the Thai men and woman you choose to associate with. It's completely subjective.

For every X amount of cases spouting the bad, there's an equal number of cases of the good. Somewhere in the middle is the truth.

[IanForbes]

I said "many" not "all" Thai men. I speak only from experience over the past 15 years of coming to Thailand. To deny what I said is sticking your head in the sand. I personally know of at least 40 such cases in Thailand alone. It happens within the poor communities of all countries, but some countries have taken measures to control it to some degree.

Your experience and view of Thai men is skewed. I don't know where you are or who you choose to associate with in Thailand, that's your business, but in my experience and the experience of my Thai family and friends (who have been in Thailand much longer than your 15 years obviously) your experience is completely out of the ordinary. At least 40 cases? Doesn't that raise red flags to you? If I knew 40 singles mothers in my home country I wouldcertainly start reassessing my circle of friends.

You're basing your assumptions on your personal experienceand misinterpreting the data. Your experience doesn't say anything about "many"Thai men, it says something about the Thai men and woman you choose to associate with. It's completely subjective.

For every X amount of cases spouting the bad, there's an equal number of cases of the good. Somewhere in the middle is the truth.

Good reply, regine. I won't disagree with you. It all depends on what part of society a person associates with. I tend to hang around the lower end of Thai society and in the small villages of Thailand. But, I won't change my position on lack of respect for men who abandon the children they have fathered or wives and children they've abandoned without support. But, Berkshire also brings up a good point about women who demand more than a man can give. As you say, the truth is usually somewhere in the middle.

[BangrakBob]

limp wristed musings abound in this thread

[JurgenG]

It's a well known fact that many young Thai men follow the "love em and leave em" practise. They spread their seed everywhere with no concern for the consequences and very few young men wear condoms. Evidence of that are all the young Thai mothers with no husband and no means of support for their child. In North America, a woman can go after the father of her child for support. That is not the case in Thailand, and, that is the prime reason for all the prostitution. Thai authorities don't think it's their concern that Thai men take responsibility for leaving a trail of pregnant women behind.

Well known to who? All the idiots we have here on TV that seem to pull so called "evidence" about Thai men from their a$?

I mean, are all you that thick or is it just the company you choose to keep? How is the above comment not offensive to Thai men and people with male Thai partners?!?!

All these posts are the same. Foreign men trying to justify their existence in LOS. Thais, men and woman alike, don't need you here. They really don't.

I said "many" not "all" Thai men. I speak only from experience over the past 15 years of coming to Thailand. To deny what I said is sticking your head in the sand. I personally know of at least 40 such cases in Thailand alone. It happens within the poor communities of all countries, but some countries have taken measures to control it to some degree.

....

I believe I understand the source of the misunderstanding. Ian writes "many", "all" ... but he is not talking about Thai people in general, he is talking about the lowest class of the Thai society. He will be excused because that's a mistake many other posters make.

I think the main difference between western and Thai men is nowadays western men are educated to be more involved in their family day-to-day life. Thai men act like our parents or grand parents, I made the kids, I give you money at the end of the month, what else do you want ? Give them time and in one and two generation they will be as screwed as we are.

[daoyai]

I think some Local women see the Farang man as "soft" because he can be manipulated by dishonest women and is too trusting, too quickly. The very traits that would be cherished by an honest partner are abused by a gold digger. The farang is seen as too soft because he can't distinguish between the two.

As to Thai men.... there really are all kinds, open your eyes a bit and you will see very devoted family men, lazy louts, and every degree between.

Because poverty, lack of education and opportunity is so widespread here, you will see the related social problems described in earlier posts.

[canuckamuck]

Ladies agree: 'a hard man is good to find'.

[lovelaos]

I wouldn't exactly describe Western men as soft. I would say desperate is more apt when it involves Thai women.

In the West unless we have wealth, young women consider men 50 and over as too old plus there is a taboo regarding young women fornicating and forming romantic partnerships with men old enough to be their fathers or grandfathers.

Therefore the older farang men living in Thailand, if they acquire themselves a younger Thai wife or girlfriend will do anything to keep them appeased, happy and contented, because most of these types of old farang man falls in lust or love with young Thai woman relationships are based on finance and giving the woman status within her community. If the old farang man does not live up to her expectations then there is a chance that the women may stray off or become dissatisfied with the relationship. Hence the Western men gain a reputation as being soft.

+1

[kathukid]

I have so odten heard the reverse. We are harder, more endowed and also don't mind a varied menu!

[StreetCowboy]

I have so odten heard the reverse. We are harder, more endowed and also don't mind a varied menu!

And handsome, too

SC

[sarahsbloke]

It's a well known fact that many young Thai men follow the "love em and leave em" practise. They spread their seed everywhere with no concern for the consequences and very few young men wear condoms. Evidence of that are all the young Thai mothers with no husband and no means of support for their child. In North America, a woman can go after the father of her child for support. That is not the case in Thailand, and, that is the prime reason for all the prostitution. Thai authorities don't think it's their concern that Thai men take responsibility for leaving a trail of pregnant women behind.

I just can't agree with this.

Thai authorities believe a woman shouldn't choose to have a baby unless she is married.

This is a much more just system then the west, her body, her choice, her responsibility.

In the west some women deliberately choose to have babies rather than work for a living.

But if we are talking about bodily attributes.

Generally western men have much bigger, but softer parts, only good for 2 or 3 goes a night.

Thai men are very small but very hard and are off and on all night.

Also the woman who is advising me states, for sex, Thai ladies usually prefer the small and hard.

(I think of the mechanical process involved and tend to agree with her theory)

Edited May 24, 2011 by sarahsbloke

[krangeek]

this may sound overly simplistic to you all, but its the truth

there are thai men who are nice and polite

just as there are farang men who are complete jerks and treat women bad

and there are also the opposite of the above

Im sure each of us have met all the above. Ive met more farang men that treat women bad than I have personally met thai men that do. but I also hear enough stories about the good farang men, and vice versa about the bad thai men.

its just human nature.

by the way, lets not make this a personal vendetta against any member with different views and experiences to our own. keep the discussion civil - no personal attacks please

Good point. What about all the farang men who come to settle here in Thailand with their farang wives, and abandon them for some girl working out of a bar/massage parlour whom they have known for, quite possibly, just one week?

[dressedingreen]

I'm grateful to all who have contributed to this thread. From the staunchly held opinions, to the 'this is Thailand, not our country, not our business, and we should stay out of it' types (although I'd suggest if that's the case we might as well close down this forum and die quietly in some corner of a foreign field/beach/bar).

My own feedback, and I claim no scientific approach, therefore it's highly subjective, and maybe suspect, is that many Thai women regard what I referred to as soft, as a more involved and caring approach to relationships. No generalization intended. My wife is a teacher, and therefore moves in circles that may be regarded as 'the thinking classes'. And I'd be surprised if there are weren't a sizable percentage of Thai women who have difficulty with such an involved approach. We are all products of our most influential cultures. As a westerner, I was raised in a culture where people are encouraged, by the state, to take responsibility for their actions. Other contributors to this post have alluded to the enforced approach western states take on this subject. IMO, it's both fair and reasonable to expect citizens to take responsibility for their actions. Although I'd agree that, in many cases/countries, the pendulum swung too far in the opposite direction for many years, and left many men in a position of near poverty after heavy child support payments were imposed. That has slowly been rebalanced in many places. But the point is most western men are used to this regime, and have come to accept the reasoning behind it. So it's not surprising Thai women would notice this kind of difference.

In the west, couples tend to do more together. Apart from family and religious commitments here, many Thai people tend to spend more time in single gender groups. And the commitment (but not necessarily the attachment) appears to be more loosely formed. I remember having a conversation with my wife, a number of years ago, about letting me know if she was going out for an extended period. Not because I wanted to control her movements, but because this is normal polite practice in western relationships. Not so much in Thai marriages, where the husband/wife will often leave for work/social outings without saying anything. It isn't seen as necessary. The expectation being the absent partner will return at some undefined point.

Asia is still largely a patriarchal continent, where male supremacy is still enshrined in many (what westerners may see as unfair, even sexist) laws. Asian media still portrays women as weak, silly and incapable. Of course, the truth is very different. It is often the matriarch who supports and holds the family together. But this is not recognized, in either law or accepted wisdom, to be the case, to the same degree in which it is in western countries. Social trends usually follow economic ones. And therefore these kinds of assumptions will change over time.

Every society has its contributive and its non-contributive citizens. I see as much of a balance here as I have done in other countries in which I have lived. The idea of 'the male as butterfly' is as true in western countries as it is here in Asia. The difference that has been alluded to in this thread is more to do with education and enforcement than it is with a growing altruism among the male of the species. And let's be both honest and realistic, we are driven by our hormonal make up more than we often care to admit. Add time, sufficient funds, alcohol and available sexual partners to testosterone, and it's hard for most men to control the effects of such a combustible mix. Not impossible, but it takes thought, consideration and discipline.

I alluded, in replying to another thread, to the importance of self-critique. Understanding why we do what we do. The idea being, if we act as automatons, we must accept the consequences of (often) ill-thought out actions. In these cases it isn't surprising that so many 'guests' in Thailand get their bank balances burned in relationships. I'd suggest it's often down to simple miscommunication. Multicultural relationships have added complications. If each partner doesn't understand why the other acts in certain ways, and it isn't discussed, mistaken inferences can be drawn, and acted upon. Of course, this approach won't solve all relationship problems. In any society, when opportunities for personal enrichment present themselves, there will always be some who will attempt to take advantage. And sometimes even the best intentioned relationships fail.

Finally, I'd like to draw a distinction between righteousness and happiness. One of the most basic needs of people is to be loved and taken seriously. To be valued and to feel worthy. Some men (I'm assuming I'm addressing a largely male readership) seek satiety of this need through short term liaisons, some through longer term or committed relationships. Some, having reached retirement and perhaps not having family back in their home country, seek love/affection/validation in countries like Thailand. There are many reasons for moving to this part of the world later in life. It's often cheaper than the home country (that may not be the case for too long into the future), the climate is better, there is often access to younger, more attractive women etc. We all have our own list. I have seen many 'older men' wheeling/carrying babies around my nearest city, Pattaya. One thing I notice about most of them. They look engaged, more energetic than many of them would be in their home countries. They are generally of a happier disposition, seeming to have a sense of purpose I seldom saw in my home country (UK). Someone, replying to this thread, alluded to the idea that they could not expect the same in their home country, because of the stigma attached to multi-generational relationships. This is, with few exceptions, undoubtedly true. Asian society is not the same. Age is largely respected rather than despised. Economics play a greater role in family relationships here than in most western countries. Asia has a population that is skewed toward the male (there are more females than males in Thailand). So why wouldn't an older male, feeling he still has much to offer, come to Asia in the hope of living out his life as a useful and important part of a (new) family? It makes both economic and emotional sense. I doubt most delude themselves that they are lusted after for their rugged good looks and dapper dress sense. But accept that they can provide an easier life for a partner, in return for some mutual support, respect and affection.

So perhaps I'm suggesting (and agreeing with another poster to this thread) that some/many are glad to be useful and validated again. And I'd guess, with many older people, age brings the realization that many of the things we used to think were important, are no longer so. Actually, they never were. But as younger people we are often blinded by desire, greed, cultural edicts and a host of other illusory ideals. So perhaps being seen as a little soft from time to time is a small price to pay for the luxury of not dieing slowly in a culture that almost wishes the over 50's would just quietly disappear.

DIG

[sarahsbloke]

Great post DIG, well said, if a little serious.

[Credo]

I had the opportunity to teach a class of adult factory workers for many, many years. It was a male-dominated class, with a handful of ladies who worked in the office. I was invited to all the functions at the factory and over time to their homes. I got a chance to see real live families and how they worked.

As dressedingreen said, the sexes are segregated. For a long time I didn't know that some of the students had spouses in the same class. The men stayed together and the ladies stayed together. Interaction as a couple was nil.

One of the most striking thing I saw with this group was the immense love and concern these men had for their children. Most decisions were made with their kids in mind. They worked hard to try and send their children to the best school possible. They took them places (I was often invited along). They played with their children, their children were comfortable around them and overall, I have to say I was envious of the closeness they had with their kids. Family dynamics are different from Western culture, but no less intense. Certainly no less caring.

I just haven't seen the huge slice of terrible Thai men that are reported on this forum. I've looked, but I just haven't run into them.

[MrHammer]

I think some foreigners are too stupid and many are too love starved too make a rational decision.

Lack of self respect probably as well. Lack of setting boundaries for behaviour in a relationship.