Another Shower Death

[Fookhaht]

That's terrible news.

Changing things like this is just going to make LOS like the dreary old west though, with it's nanny state mentality. It's these unnecessary dangers that make the place so colourful isn't it.

..are you for real, colourful, electrocuted in the shower you call that colourful <deleted>.

No, I wasn't being real. I was being sarcastic in order to highlight the reverse of what I said, if you see what I mean. I much prefer to live in a nannie state and not get electrocuted in the shower. Some may feel otherwise though.

To get a sarcastic point across, I would suggest enrolling in an Emoticons 101 course.

Otherwise your ambiguity invites negative reactions such as you've experienced.

[lopburi3]

There are a number of threads on this in the DIY section.

1. Have and frequently test the ELCD (GFI) on the unit - older models can freeze the breaker in on position if reset bar is not free moving - this is a unit after breaker connection in heater - will not help for a short before it.

2. Make sure there is a wire leading from ground terminal inside unit (cover of unit must be removed to see) - have electrician test it with you watching (you should see the same voltage to that wire as to neutral). That will help protect against hot case and trip breaker faster.

3. Have the fee line itself protected by another or whole house ELCB (GFI). Anything in bath should be GFI protected from outside the room itself. Make sure if adjustable unit it is not turned off (bypass).

For gas heater you have the problem of exhaust build up if not well vented and many people have died here using gas heaters.

[Chivas]

Crazy I know (or maybe not) but I refuse to switch on the power to the Electric Shower in my wifes home.

Just do not trust it !!

Am quite happy to shower in lukewarm water rather than possibly flying 20 feet across the room.

RIP

[p_brownstone]

To be expected. Geesh. Look at the poles. They look like speghetti.

Yes, I always find is funny when I see tourists taking pictures of them. It's funny to me but should be embarrassing for Thailand.

To be fair, the vast majority of that mess is Telephone Cable, not Electrical power.

Patrick

[Kwasaki]

maybe a stupid question, but how do I know if my shower heater is earthed correctly by just looking at it?

I was thinking the same thing and glad you brought it up. For those of us who are electrically challenged (like me), is it possible to show us a picture of what the problem is or what to look for?

I can only say that the unfortunate person had a faulty shower unit and the ELB trip didn't work so always check it, especially old ones and check them for leakage there are a number of 'O ' ring fitments, and get them serviced which is what many people do not do in regard to old units.

The ELB will trip out with current overload to the water heater exchange unit according to the amp value of the unit as well also if water shorts out the incoming power supply.

I can only speak for my village area where the company feed come in the house with live & neg, 5 amp supply or 15 amp ( you can get 3 phase if you want ) the earthing is done through the frame of the house if you have a metal frame built house that goes to ground, if not you can buy earthing rods which are put into the ground the longer the better. Earth cable is green and you run it from the earthing rods to the electrical household appliances that require earthing.

To check your shower unit, Isolate the electric current to the showers unit which must have a switch, underneath the wall unit casing there is usually one screw, usually you pull off the heater dial, there are different designs, unscrew and the case bottom will put away and a gently pushing up it will release the casing from the unit.

You can see the earth terminal at the top with the two feed wires.

You can tell if you can see the wires going into the shower unit has an additional green wire, we can only get twin cable here so we run an additional green one.

[sarahsbloke]

Life is cheap, the world is full of people.

These events are rare, hardly worth doubling the price of everyones electrical installation.

This is not America where somebody else is to blame for every accident.

Sad for the family, but god's will.

Best not to play with any shower controls after the water is running, just in case.

[mario299]

Life is cheap, the world is full of people.

These events are rare, hardly worth doubling the price of everyones electrical installation.

This is not America where somebody else is to blame for every accident.

Sad for the family, but god's will.

Best not to play with any shower controls after the water is running, just in case.

I'm sorry sarahsbloke, but that's pretty cold-hearted.

These events are rare, hardly worth doubling the price of everyones electrical installation.

A simple, properly done earthing/grounding would certainly NOT double the installation cost, it's just common sense and good practice

This is not America where somebody else is to blame for every accident.

Doesn't matter where it is if it's a life we're talking about, but I have to say that as a contractor in America for 30 years, I never ran across this happening there.

but god's will.

God had nothing to do with this, poor practices had EVERYTHING to do with it.

Please get real and get some compassion for crying out loud, this was a young man that died for no other reason that poor electrical procedures.

mario299

[TheWalkingMan]

I remember reading about a young lady who died in one of these incidents in her apartment. I also remember a staff person at a 7-11 on Walking Street being electrocuted.

I strongly feel that either the Condo Associations, Apartment Associations, Hotel Associations should have these machines reviewed in every room. I know some people will scream "nanny state!" but there are times when regulations from above need to be stated and enforced. Having people die for no reason is a shame.

TheWalkingMan

[robblok]

I remember reading about a young lady who died in one of these incidents in her apartment. I also remember a staff person at a 7-11 on Walking Street being electrocuted.

I strongly feel that either the Condo Associations, Apartment Associations, Hotel Associations should have these machines reviewed in every room. I know some people will scream "nanny state!" but there are times when regulations from above need to be stated and enforced. Having people die for no reason is a shame.

TheWalkingMan

High punishments for hotels / condo owners where it goes wrong should be enough.

I bought a high quality unit and am happy i did.

[krangeek]

Earthing is not enough.

Use RCD breakers.

Breakers too late when you've received the ridiculously high and unnecessary voltage from the stupidly installed 3 phase.

Met poor woman who couldn't believe her 17 year old son had died from shower shock as 'no one else received a shock when they dragged him out'.

I tried to explain that it was because there was a breaker. She wasn't convinced. But far too late for her son.

3 phase is for factories, not domestic dwellings.

[sarahsbloke]

Please get real and get some compassion for crying out loud, this was a young man that died for no other reason that poor electrical procedures.

mario299

Got to say having worked in the electrical installation industry, and having mains electricity run through me on more than one occasion.

I really don't believe someone who is 100% healthy will die from an electric shock.

Heart goes ''Kabaam' and keeps on working.

Edited May 27, 2011 by sarahsbloke

[RedFxTrade]

Please get real and get some compassion for crying out loud, this was a young man that died for no other reason that poor electrical procedures.

mario299

Got to say having worked in the electrical installation industry, and having mains electricity run through me on more than one occasion.

I really don't believe someone who is 100% healthy will die from an electric shock.

Heart goes ''Kabaam' and keeps on working.

As SC Cowboy said the people who reply to you man give you credibility. What on earth are you talking about dude? Thats the biggest load of gobbledygook I have ever heard. It seems unfortunate that you didn't get enough voltage and current with some those shocks

[saraburioz]

Life is cheap, the world is full of people.

These events are rare, hardly worth doubling the price of everyones electrical installation.

This is not America where somebody else is to blame for every accident.

Sad for the family, but god's will.

Best not to play with any shower controls after the water is running, just in case.

I'm sorry sarahsbloke, but that's pretty cold-hearted.

These events are rare, hardly worth doubling the price of everyones electrical installation.

A simple, properly done earthing/grounding would certainly NOT double the installation cost, it's just common sense and good practice

This is not America where somebody else is to blame for every accident.

Doesn't matter where it is if it's a life we're talking about, but I have to say that as a contractor in America for 30 years, I never ran across this happening there.

but god's will.

God had nothing to do with this, poor practices had EVERYTHING to do with it.

Please get real and get some compassion for crying out loud, this was a young man that died for no other reason that poor electrical procedures.

mario299

How do you know God had nothing to do with it?

Was he a Thai? Thais believe in karma - that's why they don't worry too much about death.

[RedFxTrade]

Life is cheap, the world is full of people.

These events are rare, hardly worth doubling the price of everyones electrical installation.

This is not America where somebody else is to blame for every accident.

Sad for the family, but god's will.

Best not to play with any shower controls after the water is running, just in case.

I'm sorry sarahsbloke, but that's pretty cold-hearted.

These events are rare, hardly worth doubling the price of everyones electrical installation.

A simple, properly done earthing/grounding would certainly NOT double the installation cost, it's just common sense and good practice

This is not America where somebody else is to blame for every accident.

Doesn't matter where it is if it's a life we're talking about, but I have to say that as a contractor in America for 30 years, I never ran across this happening there.

but god's will.

God had nothing to do with this, poor practices had EVERYTHING to do with it.

Please get real and get some compassion for crying out loud, this was a young man that died for no other reason that poor electrical procedures.

mario299

How do you know God had nothing to do with it?

Was he a Thai? Thais believe in karma - that's why they don't worry too much about death.

And the Pedant has arrived...

[skippybangkok]

PVC water pipes versus copper / steel ones has anything to do with it as well ?

[sarahsbloke]

Having just looked at my shower unit.

Plastic front, plastic buttons, plastic pipes.

One wonders where one could touch to get an electric shock, even it the metal bits on my shower were live, they are not touchable.

I often wondered if many of the Thai shower shocker deaths were similar to the Thai balcony suicides!

[threelegcowboy]

The electric current comes from the wire...duh. Then the current travels where the failure is through the water to your body. If it passes through your heart's electial wiring overload can damage. Then the current passes to the water...then down the drain all the way to the earth ground. Got it ?

I have had a shock to my legs with a non grounded heater. Lucky for me just my legs.

RIP

Edited May 28, 2011 by threelegcowboy

[jackr]

Crazy I know (or maybe not) but I refuse to switch on the power to the Electric Shower in my wifes home.

Just do not trust it !!

If there's a leak, fault in the shower, you could still get a pisser whether the shower is switched on or not... the juice is still in there. Only foolproof way is to knock it off, or disconnect, at dist board.

why install the water heater directly in the shower anyway, and not earlier in the water circuit, outside of the shower cell?

Much safer, although still not great without an earth. If there's a fault inside, juice down the water through you.

Breakers too late when you've received the ridiculously high and unnecessary voltage from the stupidly installed 3 phase.

Met poor woman who couldn't believe her 17 year old son had died from shower shock as 'no one else received a shock when they dragged him out'.

I tried to explain that it was because there was a breaker. She wasn't convinced. But far too late for her son.

3 phase is for factories, not domestic dwellings.

Way off the mark my friend. Domestic three phase is split up in the dist board for those with higher consumption. You still get 240v at load end (not 415) as with single phase wiring. The breaker didn't kill him, it would have been shoddy wiring. A correctly installed RCD inline would have protected him.

Having just looked at my shower unit.

Plastic front, plastic buttons, plastic pipes.

One wonders where one could touch to get an electric shock, even it the metal bits on my shower were live, they are not touchable.

The actual water heater inside is metal, (impure) water conducts electricity, water runs on you...

--

Best way to check if your unit is properly earthed (NOT FOR NON SPARKIES!!) is disconnect everything - unit and dist board - join up live & earth, mega test tails at dist board end... should be a zero, no resistance reading. It is also not a given the house you're in is earthed properly...

[IanForbes]

To be expected. Geesh. Look at the poles. They look like speghetti.

Yes, I always find is funny when I see tourists taking pictures of them. It's funny to me but should be embarrassing for Thailand.

Yah mean guys like me?

That's okay, they've got guys who can fix it...

[Kwasaki]

Best way to check if your unit is properly earthed (NOT FOR NON SPARKIES!!) is disconnect everything - unit and dist board - join up live & earth, mega test tails at dist board end... should be a zero, no resistance reading. It is also not a given the house you're in is earthed properly...

Not a lot of good if you don't have earthing wires.

Yah mean guys like me?

That's okay, they've got guys who can fix it...

Yeah !! I like the way they spark in the rain.

[FarangBuddha]

I can only speak for my village area where the company feed come in the house with live & neg, 5 amp supply or 15 amp ( you can get 3 phase if you want ) the earthing is done through the frame of the house if you have a metal frame built house that goes to ground, if not you can buy earthing rods which are put into the ground the longer the better. Earth cable is green and you run it from the earthing rods to the electrical household appliances that require earthing. .

Not really correct...you run the earth cabling from the appliances back to the ground/earth panel on your main circuit board. Then the ground/earth panel is connected by a cable to the earth ground/rod. Otherwise, you have many cables running out to the earth ground/rod.

[welsh1]

Crazy I know (or maybe not) but I refuse to switch on the power to the Electric Shower in my wifes home.

Just do not trust it !!

Am quite happy to shower in lukewarm water rather than possibly flying 20 feet across the room.

RIP

I havnt even got a electric shower me..ban nok ban nok shower big bucket and small bowl.

Yes this time of year the water is lukewwarm ..but in the colder months..<deleted>@#ing Freezing.

End up with a ole boy that looks like action mans bobble hat...

RIP to the young man and condolences to the family !!

[Kwasaki]

I can only speak for my village area where the company feed come in the house with live & neg, 5 amp supply or 15 amp ( you can get 3 phase if you want ) the earthing is done through the frame of the house if you have a metal frame built house that goes to ground, if not you can buy earthing rods which are put into the ground the longer the better. Earth cable is green and you run it from the earthing rods to the electrical household appliances that require earthing. .

Not really correct...you run the earth cabling from the appliances back to the ground/earth panel on your main circuit board. Then the ground/earth panel is connected by a cable to the earth ground/rod. Otherwise, you have many cables running out to the earth ground/rod.

You may be right in the case the main circuit board has an earth connection but mine doesn't so I had to earth out separately.

My situation is upstairs bedroom bathroom shower unit connected to steel framework of house a 2m copper rod is placed in the ground and connected to the steelwork.

Downstairs bathroom shower unit, no ceiling steelwork and column are cased in concrete, so a 1.5 m rod was driven down next to the house and a cased earth wire going through the wall to the ceiling area and drop down to connect to the shower unit.

I did the work myself and the same to my computer three point earth plug in socket with switch I bought from Homemart.

It did not cost a lot for materials and a Thai sparky would do it for about 300baht around here. if your not sure get your earthing system checked.

Edited May 28, 2011 by Kwasaki

[citizen33]

I wonder if some people are getting confused about the different kinds of circuit protection, and the meaning of 'breaker'. A normal circuit breaker, such as the MCBs in consumer units (the little modules with switches via which you can isolate an individual circuit), is designed to cut out under conditions of current overload or short circuit, and - as said - won't operate fast enough to save your life. However, other devices are designed to detect leakage to earth (such as will occur if you plug yourself into the mains), will trip in milliseconds and will save you. These are generically known as residual current devices (RCDs) and sub-types include RCCBs and ELCBs (or in the USA GFIs and ALCIs). Where the current breaker and an RCD are combined in one device it is known as an RCBO or GFCI. Safe-T-Cut is one popular Thai make of RCD, which some say isn't very good (have to confess I have one). It is possible to buy a modular version which will occupy 2 or 3 slots in a consumer unit, and one from a company such as Siemens or Crabtree will be pretty good (mine went kaput hence the Safe-T-Cut). Most electric showers sold by the Thai superstores also have an ELCB built in, with a test button. I agree with all that has been said about good earthing system, plus central RCD, plus shower ELCB, plus test ELCB regularly. Also make sure an adjustable RCD unit is set to a medium or low trip setting and definitely not to 'bypass'. However, I am a hobbyist not a qualified electrician.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Residual-current_device

The suggested method for testing the connection to earth in the thread is not conclusive. You really need a specialised earth loop tester - not a multimeter or even a megger.

Edited May 28, 2011 by citizen33

[sarahsbloke]

Having just looked at my shower unit.

Plastic front, plastic buttons, plastic pipes.

One wonders where one could touch to get an electric shock, even it the metal bits on my shower were live, they are not touchable.

The actual water heater inside is metal, (impure) water conducts electricity, water runs on you...

.

Fortunately tap water is not that good a conductor of electricity, the water showering over you cannot 'shock' you even if it is coming from a 'live' source.

You have to be in very close contact with the metal to get a shock.

Else we would all die in Thailand when the rain hit the overhead electricity cables then fell onto us.

Also 240v travelling from arm to leg is not fatal in any healthy adult.

I spent years training to work on 'live' equipment, one hand in back pocket to prevent the most dangerous shock, hand to hand across chest.

These are the true facts

Water coming from your shower is barely conductive. Even on Mythbusters they showed the myth of throwing a toaster into a bath would not electrocute you.

For water to be conductive it needs an electrolyte in it..like salt or a strong acid. Plain water is a terrible carrier of electrons from electricity

Loads of people perpetuate the same silly mis-information, I can't believe how many ignorant people claim to work in the electrical installation business and keep repeating this rubbish.

Edited May 28, 2011 by sarahsbloke

[Kwasaki]

citizen33 is hitting the mark and not getting into arguments.

And before you all go off and electrocute yourselfs here's a bit more info :-

A circuit breaker is an automatically operated electrical switch designed to protect an electrical circuit from damage caused by overload or short circuit.

Its basic function is to detect a fault condition and, by interrupting continuity, to immediately discontinue electrical flow.

Unlike a fuse, which operates once and then has to be replaced, a circuit breaker can be reset (either manually or automatically) to resume normal operation.

A residual-current device (RCD), similar to a residual current circuit breaker (RCCB), (formerly known as an Earth leakage circuit breaker or ELCB) is an electrical wiring device that disconnects a circuit whenever it detects that the electric current is not balanced between the energized conductor and the return neutral conductor. Such an imbalance is sometimes caused by current leakage through the body of a person who is grounded and accidentally touching the energized part of the circuit. A lethal shock can result from these conditions. RCDs are designed to disconnect quickly enough to mitigate the harm caused by such shocks although they are not intended to provide protection against overload or short-circuit conditions.

Residual-current device (RCD, formerly known as a residual current circuit breaker) detects current imbalance, but does not provide over-current protection.

Residual current breaker with over-current protection (RCBO) combines the functions of an RCD and an MCB in one package.

In the United States and Canada, panel-mounted devices that combine ground (earth) fault detection and over-current protection are called Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter (GFCI) breakers; a wall mounted outlet device providing ground fault detection only is called a GFI.

My son sent me this for some info, he is a qualified sparky in all categories, he said this is good stuff he got it from Wilki.

Edited May 29, 2011 by Kwasaki

[Kwasaki]

an RCCB

Ground fault circuit interruptors in Thailand, a good one is SAFE-T-CUT (trademark)

Edited May 29, 2011 by Kwasaki

[Kwasaki]

GFCI/RCBO device and look at Test and tagging on Wilki good info if your concerned.

[kokesaat]

I don't mean to hijack the 'shower death' thread, but there seems to be a fair number of people following this thread who may be able to answer my question:

Our home does not have a standard Safe-T-Cut box. Instead, we have a RCB switch on the power panel. When a thunderstorm is overhead, our RCB switch may (not always) close. When the RCB switch closes, all the power goes off in the house. This isn't a problem, unless we're not at home for an extended period of time.

When I reset the RCB switch, the power comes back on as normal.

Can anyone tell me why the RCB switch is affected by lightning? Is there something wrong with the wiring in the house/circuit box, or is it something I have to live with? Any suggestions from the experts appreciated.

[sarahsbloke]

I don't mean to hijack the 'shower death' thread, but there seems to be a fair number of people following this thread who may be able to answer my question:

Our home does not have a standard Safe-T-Cut box. Instead, we have a RCB switch on the power panel. When a thunderstorm is overhead, our RCB switch may (not always) close. When the RCB switch closes, all the power goes off in the house. This isn't a problem, unless we're not at home for an extended period of time.

When I reset the RCB switch, the power comes back on as normal.

Can anyone tell me why the RCB switch is affected by lightning? Is there something wrong with the wiring in the house/circuit box, or is it something I have to live with? Any suggestions from the experts appreciated.

RCBs are not an exacting device, you can have some far more sensitive than others, especially if your power source is 'dippy'.

In the UK we often use dual circuit boxes,

which have a RCB in the side of the electricity that runs to devices like the lights, showers and sockets that are problematical.

and just a straight fuse to the fridge, freezer and other stuff you don't want disconnected while you are away.

You really only need an RCB for electricity sources that you are likely to 'touch'

Step one, replace the RCB, not all that expensive, see if a replacement is less prone to false disconnects.

Step two, get another small fuse box without RCB, run direct to freezer.