Working Legally In Thailand - Immigration And Labour Departments Speaks Out

[SNGLIFE]

Well, regarding my post and responses (for whatever reason quote is not available to me), I went to immigration yesterday and got a permission to stay as a spouse no problem and lickity-split. Went the 400k in the bank route.

Not a peep from immigration about having to have a work permit.

[jitenshaman]

How about this case: An artist (painter/photographer) or an author, who likes to spend time in Thailand, is content with a 30 day stamp in his/her passport on arrival, and tourist visa from neighbouring countries, ... sits in his private space to draw, paint or write, .. has no interest in having clients in Thailand, never shows his work in Thailand, because all the income is generated from business outside Thailand, > publisher in the UK > galleries in Europe etc Stays out of everyone's way, ships his work out via courier, in his luggage or in the case of digital files, via the WWW .. does not take a single Baht from anyone in Thailand, nor competes with any local "wanna be" artists, so jealousy is nothing to contend with ....

If that were you, would you even worry about a permit?

Thai tax law requires such a person to pay tax if he is a resident in Thailand for 186 days, and brings in to Thailand money he made overseas .. as Residents are taxed on Global Income!

It is a lot easier just to get tourist visas, ed visas or go via other routes....unfortunately, there is a huge amount of hypocrisy involved. I am one of the aforementioned freelance artists. Believe me, the Bangkok Post, the Nation, and a lot of other publications buy material from freelancers who do not have work permits. When they pay them, they deduct 10% or whatever tax, so the artists are indeed being taxed by the Thai government (or at least the media companies are deducting it, who knows if it gets declared). And yet it is virtually impossible for the same freelancer to get an M visa.

[Soutpeel]

Not a peep from immigration about having to have a work permit.

Not suprising as its the Department of labour that deals with WP's, not immigration...

[Jobo]

Could somebody tell me why the 800,000 baht required to be in a Thai Bank Account for the purposes of securing a Retirement Visa could not be equally achieved by significant sums invested in the SET (Stock Exchange of Thailand)?

If your significant investment is THB 10 Mio or more you can also apply for an investment visa.

That's the most intelligent response I have had. Thanks for that CNF55 I will look into that option asap as retirement approaches.

[Maestro]

Well, regarding my post and responses (for whatever reason quote is not available to me), I went to immigration yesterday and got a permission to stay as a spouse no problem and lickity-split. Went the 400k in the bank route.

Not a peep from immigration about having to have a work permit.

A work permit has never been needed to obtain an annual extension of stay for the reason of living with your Thai spouse. Only if you wanted to work in Thailand would you require a work permit.

[Arkady]

A company started by a Thai person and employing and paying social security for 4 Thai employees can offer one work permit for a foreigner without needing the required 2 million baht in registered capital.

Not sure what the head the work permit department meant by this comment which may well be another misquote by the City Life reporter. For one thing there is nothing in the law or regulations to do with WPs about the nationality of the founder of the company. In fact I can't see how he would know from looking at the company's official documents who founded it. Secondly Labour Ministry regulations do indeed require 2 million baht in registered capital for each WP. Thirdly Labour Ministry regulations do not require any Thai employees at all (I had one for three years with no Thai employees). It is the Immigration Bureau that requires the Thai employees for an extension of a non-imm B visa based on employment, and nothing to do with his office. Of course, there is nothing to stop a company from offering a WP to some one but no guarantee it will be issued.

[bitterbatter]

Watch musicians with a permit still get arrested in Chiang Mai

[TechnikaIII]

... are the authorities simply resentful of our 'industry', whilst so many Thais have nothing to do? And who's fault is that, dare I ask ..

As for the letter of the law, I should not even keep a diary, let alone carry a sketch pad. It's sickening.

[mataleo]

A company started by a Thai person and employing and paying social security for 4 Thai employees can offer one work permit for a foreigner without needing the required 2 million baht in registered capital.

so if i get company willing to employ me started by thai with minimum 3 thai workers paying taxes, amd then apply for work permit and visa B?

means i can apply for jobs on net, to thai companies right?

thank you

No its 4 Thai workers and not sure what you mean by last sentence ?

If you mean you can find work for the Thai company that holds your WP and they put you into another company to work on contract ..then yes

If you mean apply for jobs with a new Thai company and work for that company as an indivdual...then no...you would need a new WP

No, i mean foreginers can apply for jobs on net, and get jobs in companies that employ 4 thais, and pay taxes, and go for interview and then get work permit, without much problrms for company like paying big fee for employing foreginer? right...

[Soutpeel]

A company started by a Thai person and employing and paying social security for 4 Thai employees can offer one work permit for a foreigner without needing the required 2 million baht in registered capital.

so if i get company willing to employ me started by thai with minimum 3 thai workers paying taxes, amd then apply for work permit and visa B?

means i can apply for jobs on net, to thai companies right?

thank you

No its 4 Thai workers and not sure what you mean by last sentence ?

If you mean you can find work for the Thai company that holds your WP and they put you into another company to work on contract ..then yes

If you mean apply for jobs with a new Thai company and work for that company as an indivdual...then no...you would need a new WP

No, i mean foreginers can apply for jobs on net, and get jobs in companies that employ 4 thais, and pay taxes, and go for interview and then get work permit, without much problrms for company like paying big fee for employing foreginer? right...

You are still not making sense, you dont need a WP to get an interview

Even if you have a WP from a company, you cant be hired by another company as an individual, one company can hire another company..

[huck]

Ah yes but what if he sells his art / photographs online and someone from thailand buys it over the internet?????

How about this case: An artist (painter/photographer) or an author, who likes to spend time in Thailand, is content with a 30 day stamp in his/her passport on arrival, and tourist visa from neighbouring countries, ... sits in his private space to draw, paint or write, .. has no interest in having clients in Thailand, never shows his work in Thailand, because all the income is generated from business outside Thailand, > publisher in the UK > galleries in Europe etc Stays out of everyone's way, ships his work out via courier, in his luggage or in the case of digital files, via the WWW .. does not take a single Baht from anyone in Thailand, nor competes with any local "wanna be" artists, so jealousy is nothing to contend with ....

If that were you, would you even worry about a permit?

Under Thai law he could face 5 years in prison.

Tp tell you the truth. All immigration systems world wide are out of touch with reality.

They go against GOD's law. Which is man inherited the earth. Protestants believe in the work ethic.

God said: be fuitful and muliply. So Thai law goes against GOD.

All immigation systems are out of touch with reality. Basically we live in one world now. with one system.

It is called globalization. Man should be free to go anywhere in this world and work anywhere he wants to. That is called "free trade"

[huck]

How about this case: An artist (painter/photographer) or an author, who likes to spend time in Thailand, is content with a 30 day stamp in his/her passport on arrival, and tourist visa from neighbouring countries, ... sits in his private space to draw, paint or write, .. has no interest in having clients in Thailand, never shows his work in Thailand, because all the income is generated from business outside Thailand, > publisher in the UK > galleries in Europe etc Stays out of everyone's way, ships his work out via courier, in his luggage or in the case of digital files, via the WWW .. does not take a single Baht from anyone in Thailand, nor competes with any local "wanna be" artists, so jealousy is nothing to contend with ....

If that were you, would you even worry about a permit?

Thai tax law requires such a person to pay tax if he is a resident in Thailand for 186 days, and brings in to Thailand money he made overseas .. as Residents are taxed on Global Income!

So if the total number of days in Thailand on tourist visas exceeds 186 days within a 12 month period, they will actually notice and ask questions?

Tax recidency is different from recidency. If you do not own a property in Thailand but own a property, lets say in France and you spend 265 days of the year in Thailand and 100 days a year in France. Then France would be you tax recidency. Because you owned a property there.

Where you pay your tax has a lot to do with where you work and where you own property and the type of visa you have. If ytou have a 1 year reirement visa from Thailand you could be making a million dollars abroad. Thailand cannot tax you. Because its not sa permanant reidency visa. If you are a member of a club in the Bahama and you own a small shack there and you spent 350 days of the year in Thailand and 15 days in the Bahama's you would pay no tax. Because your recidency is determined by where you own property and where you have activities like being a member of this club. Thailand with its system has absolutely no right to any money you make abroad with the type of system they have. They are loosing big bucks by their own stupid system.

[WithMarco]

very interesting.

so if i want to apply as a freelance photographer (selling my work only to american and european agencies online) what are my chances ? do i need to employ some thai workers ? do i need an office ? do i need to pay taxes ?

[TechnikaIII]

very interesting.

so if i want to apply as a freelance photographer (selling my work only to american and european agencies online) what are my chances ? do i need to employ some thai workers ? do i need an office ? do i need to pay taxes ?

From all accounts ...ie. the above thread ... whether rightly or so, some bureaucrat in Thailand will argue that it is illegal. The police will arrest you at the drop of a hat, and depending the presiding judge, he may think you are worth jailing if there is someone back home who will bail you out, pay fines etc.

Thais overall, perceive the West as an ocean of money, and are jealous to the core. They want to dip into it

I would suggest, unless you have already got some sort of residency, don't apply for anything. You're a tourist. Period. If you have a bit more equipment than the average tourist, then you are a very enthusiastic amateur. If you have a fully set up studio, then you have more to hide.

Even if you have no Thai clients, they will be jealous of your access to overseas clients, and they will: 1. Screw you, 2. Deny you. or 3. Both.

Never before, and no where else does the "need to know" rule apply more than it does in Thailand. To be on the safe side, always consider yourself as being in enemy territory, even in bed, .. especially in bed. Everywhere there are booby traps, and they know our weekness.

It's like marrying a Thai woman. Never reveal all of your assets to her, to anyone connected to her, friends or family. Shut up. And keep a reserve somewhere for when the in laws decide it is time for her to dump you and go for a higher bidder, a fresh conduit into that ocean of money. It happens more times than you would care to imagine. It doesn't matter what you have built for them, whose hospital bills you have paid for, nephews', neices' and cousins' education you have supported, there is always another dumb farang, ignorrant of all this, who will fall for her charms, get on his knees for a bit of .. and add to what you have already contributed, making them even wealthier. Even if you sleep with a gorgeous Thai woman who vowes loyalty to the end, she will also spit the dummy and throw you to the wolves if you have a studio to hide, and she knows you don't have the required permits. You think I am being a bit harsh? Just challenge one over a money issue. Many of them worship the Chinese goddess of wealth and can therefor never know real love.

I've recently had a woman, the one I had seriously planned a new life with, suddenly attack me with a volcanic rage, spitting hatred for me and all farangs, because I simply questioned what she would do with the 20,000 Baht a month she demanded for when we married. She also used my photos on ThaiLoveLinks to solicit the interest of other men, only a very short time after these photos were taken with my camera, my skill, my talent , not to mention my "love" ? Hey !!.. She shouted that she would report me to the police if I complained to either TLL or Facebook about anything to do with copyright.

Trust no one ... NO ONE !! .. because there will come a day .. I kid you not.

Keep your passport in a safe place, and know where your most valuable items are. If you can can live with that, then enjoy your photography

[TechnikaIII]

Ah yes but what if he sells his art / photographs online and someone from thailand buys it over the internet?????

How about this case: An artist (painter/photographer) or an author, who likes to spend time in Thailand, is content with a 30 day stamp in his/her passport on arrival, and tourist visa from neighbouring countries, ... sits in his private space to draw, paint or write, .. has no interest in having clients in Thailand, never shows his work in Thailand, because all the income is generated from business outside Thailand, > publisher in the UK > galleries in Europe etc Stays out of everyone's way, ships his work out via courier, in his luggage or in the case of digital files, via the WWW .. does not take a single Baht from anyone in Thailand, nor competes with any local "wanna be" artists, so jealousy is nothing to contend with ....

If that were you, would you even worry about a permit?

Under Thai law he could face 5 years in prison.

Tp tell you the truth. All immigration systems world wide are out of touch with reality.

They go against GOD's law. Which is man inherited the earth. Protestants believe in the work ethic.

God said: be fuitful and muliply. So Thai law goes against GOD.

All immigation systems are out of touch with reality. Basically we live in one world now. with one system.

It is called globalization. Man should be free to go anywhere in this world and work anywhere he wants to. That is called "free trade"

To start quoting the Gospel, you are opening a can or worms so big it will gobble you up.

Keep religion out of this thread, and remind yourself that this is Thailand.

Besides, you could be jailed under Thai Law for 5 years as preacher without a permit.

[TechnikaIII]

Ah yes but what if he sells his art / photographs online and someone from thailand buys it over the internet?????

How about this case: An artist (painter/photographer) or an author, who likes to spend time in Thailand, is content with a 30 day stamp in his/her passport on arrival, and tourist visa from neighbouring countries, ... sits in his private space to draw, paint or write, .. has no interest in having clients in Thailand, never shows his work in Thailand, because all the income is generated from business outside Thailand, > publisher in the UK > galleries in Europe etc Stays out of everyone's way, ships his work out via courier, in his luggage or in the case of digital files, via the WWW .. does not take a single Baht from anyone in Thailand, nor competes with any local "wanna be" artists, so jealousy is nothing to contend with ....

If that were you, would you even worry about a permit?

Under Thai law he could face 5 years in prison.

Tp tell you the truth. All immigration systems world wide are out of touch with reality.

They go against GOD's law. Which is man inherited the earth. Protestants believe in the work ethic.

God said: be fuitful and muliply. So Thai law goes against GOD.

All immigation systems are out of touch with reality. Basically we live in one world now. with one system.

It is called globalization. Man should be free to go anywhere in this world and work anywhere he wants to. That is called "free trade"

Quote: "It is called globalization. Man should be free to go anywhere in this world and work anywhere he wants to. That is called "free trade" ..."

Rubbish. Thailand like anywhere needs restrictions on imported labour, but it is simply not well managed. "Free Trade" is about import and export of raw materials, primary industry produce, manufactured products etc, not work permits.

For starters, Globalisation has left Thailand without most of it's forest, and is threatening to glean the remaining few stands.

Globalisation, a subject really beyond the scope of this discussion, for whatever benefits may be argued, is also the scourge of the Earth, playing into the bank balances of the mighty, and causing catastrophic financial loss when those 'mighty' stuff things up. Have you been in a coma for past few years?

[venturalaw]

What is counter-productive for Thailand are the restrictions, due to the onerous regulations concerning work permits, against foreigners performing services that Thais are unable to provide. When a foreigner who resides in Thailand earns, the moneys are spent in Thailand and therefore help support Thai businesses. Where is the harm?

Edited June 17, 2011 by venturalaw

[TechnikaIII]

What is counter-productive for Thailand are the restrictions, due to the onerous regulations concerning work permits, against foreigners performing services that Thais are unable to provide. When a foreigner who resides in Thailand earns, the moneys are spent in Thailand and therefore help support Thai businesses. Where is the harm?

I agree 100%

Yes there can and will always be problems with uncontrolled immigrant labour.

But the foreigner who wishes to rent an office, a hotel room, an apartment, or even a computer in an Internet cafe in Thailand, to conduct business operations in another country, have an online conference, a business conversation, update or even build a website, or sell online, can never harm this country. The same goes for pensioners spending their foreign money here. People in all of these categories should be encouraged, not harassed.

We pay cash to Thai landlords, cash to food vendors, laundries, clothing shops, public transport, absolutely everything, using foreign money pulled out of the wall in Thailand. This can only be helping this country.

As an artist, and now also writing a book, I have always been able to sit anywhere, in a park, on a train, in a cafe, anywhere, in any country I have ever visited, and sketch or scribble notes. But with the "onerous regulations" in this country, I have to look over my shoulder, to be constantly on the lookout for a policeman, or someone who may profit from reporting me.

If only some Thai, with the sense to realise the stupidity of the present situation, and with authority to stomp on the ignorant chieftains who are destroying this place with their own petty power games, this country really could become something. Consider the history Raffles in Singapore, which was a haven for writers. Similar environments could develop in Bangkok, Chon Buri, Chiang Mai, wherever. Thailand could really profit from such a profile.

But no.

[surayu]

We pay cash to Thai landlords, cash to food vendors, laundries, clothing shops, public transport, absolutely everything, using foreign money pulled out of the wall in Thailand.

If only some Thai, with the sense to realise the stupidity of the present situation, and with authority to stomp on the ignorant chieftains who are destroying this place with their own petty power games, this country really could become something.

Fear not! i am sure soon all these foreigners taking away from a thai an apartment a thai national could rent or buy, eating some food a thai could eat, clothing, public transport, absolutely everything a thai could have done/got but that foreigner took it away from him, it's going to stop, i am confident the right competent official it's going to see all the troubles those foreigners are creating and act coherently.....

Just be patient and wait to see it happen.

[lopburi3]

Several off-topic / talking to self posts removed.

[greytown]

How about this case: An artist (painter/photographer) or an author, who likes to spend time in Thailand, is content with a 30 day stamp in his/her passport on arrival, and tourist visa from neighbouring countries, ... sits in his private space to draw, paint or write, .. has no interest in having clients in Thailand, never shows his work in Thailand, because all the income is generated from business outside Thailand, > publisher in the UK > galleries in Europe etc Stays out of everyone's way, ships his work out via courier, in his luggage or in the case of digital files, via the WWW .. does not take a single Baht from anyone in Thailand, nor competes with any local "wanna be" artists, so jealousy is nothing to contend with ....

If that were you, would you even worry about a permit?

It would be great to obtain a clear and definite answer regarding the legality of this scenario. It seems from some on the recent statements made by officials at that labour department meeting that working (consulting) exclusively for foreign clients located abroad is ok and not a concern to Thai Immigration and labour department. But then the law definitions can easily be interpreted in the opposite direction. So a completely murky situation.

[Mario2008]

In that scenario you seem to be working. You only export the items out of Thaland but manufacturing is done in Thailand.

[beano2274]

Copied from another posters input:

It is a lot easier just to get tourist visas, ed visas or go via other routes....unfortunately, there is a huge amount of hypocrisy involved. I am one of the aforementioned freelance artists. Believe me, the Bangkok Post, the Nation, and a lot of other publications buy material from freelancers who do not have work permits. When they pay them, they deduct 10% or whatever tax, so the artists are indeed being taxed by the Thai government (or at least the media companies are deducting it, who knows if it gets declared). And yet it is virtually impossible for the same freelancer to get an M visa.

The bit in italics is very true, I know of Universities that employ teacher part time (they do around 15 hours a week), at the end of the month the teachers are taxed, however, not one of them has a work permit, and funnily enough the get tax rebates, but not all is returned.

Also there should be more checks carried out at so called agents, who get teachers jobs in Schools, as more than 75% of the teachers they employ do not have Work Permits, it is always promised but nothing happens, and the teachers are always looking over their shoulders for the coppers.

Reading the statement again about PR, it seems with a Thai wife and not working is okay, however if working or paying taxes it is considered better. But if married why not go straight to Citizenship, seems a waste to have PR.

Edited August 23, 2011 by beano2274

[Mario2008]

The guidelines for applying for Thai citzenship can be found here: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/post-a102367-Guidelines-for-Application-for-Natu.html

Not working/having a work permit and paying taxes is not OK.

[greytown]

How about a scenario where an individual is buying art / crafts produced by Thais in Thailand to ship and sell abroad? Surely this is completely beneficial to local Thais. What would be the legal status of an individual doing this?

[Mario2008]

How about a scenario where an individual is buying art / crafts produced by Thais in Thailand to ship and sell abroad? Surely this is completely beneficial to local Thais. What would be the legal status of an individual doing this?

That seems to be legal, provided you do not live in Thailand and only make business trips to Thailand. If you would live in Thailand, you have an export company and would need a work permit to do business.

[beano2274]

How about a scenario where an individual is buying art / crafts produced by Thais in Thailand to ship and sell abroad? Surely this is completely beneficial to local Thais. What would be the legal status of an individual doing this?

Are you then not an exporter!!!!!!Work Permit required

[Soutpeel]

How about a scenario where an individual is buying art / crafts produced by Thais in Thailand to ship and sell abroad? Surely this is completely beneficial to local Thais. What would be the legal status of an individual doing this?

If the indivdual buying arts and crafts in lives Thailand, in essence you have an export business going on, therefore would require a WP.

[beano2274]

For Citizenship, say you were getting an income from abroad, but payed Thai tax on it, and had the relevant receipts, then would this qualify you?

[Mario2008]

I think you better ask this question in the thread on Thai citizenship: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/121353-story-of-my-thai-citizenship-application/