Banking For Americans In Thailand 101

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

That's kind of an interesting issue....what happens if you're going to be away from your Thailand home for an extended period and there's no one else there to handle the monthly recurring bills.

I'm pretty sure, the three major mobile phone companies all allow online bill access (along with payment via online banking)... I know for sure AIS and True do.

I know also I had the option of getting my TOT/True home phone bill emailed to me, instead of postal mail, each month. And I can pay that bill as well via online banking.

But in my case, I pay water and electric thru my landlord, so I can't speak to whether they have online access to bills or even are payee capable via the various Thai banks, other than thru direct debit.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

OHHHH... BTW.... news from the AEON ATMs front....

Tonight, when I want to make an AEON ATM withdrawal in BKK, I saw something on their ATM screen that must be NEW because I've never seen or heard of it before with them....

The language basically said... AEON cash withdrawals are limited to 20,000 baht per transaction.

Another report, this from Chiang Mai, of encountering the same 20K limit with AEON now.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/624189-about-aeon-atm-fees-in-chaing-mai/page-2#entry6630776

[Pib]

Heads up for you folks who use USAA Bank Bill Pay (and probably other bank's bill pay also) to receive your ebills from "Capital One and Chase." Apparently CapOne and Chase have very recently stopped ebill service to "external" Bill Pay financial institutions like USAA Bank.. That is, USAA will no longer get ebills from CapOne or Chase nor would other banks/credit unions. This info based on a 20 minute phone call to USAA an hour ago.

Today, I got an alert direct from CapOne that my MasterCard monthly bill was within 10 days of the payment due which is 25 July. I think, What, I didn't receive the ebill at USAA Bill Pay...and I normally receive the ebill the first few days of every month...ebill has been showing up faithfully at USAA Bill Pay for almost two years now...this is the first month it's never showed up and I do have a balance/bill to pay.

And then I thought that the new CapOne Visa card I got about 3 months ago and immediately added it to USAA Bill Pay has never resulted in a ebill being received at USAA....I had to logon the CapOne web site to pay the bills. But since ebills can sometimes take a couple of billing cycles to setup I had been putting off asking USAA about why am I not getting ebills for my CapOne Visa card. So, I logged onto my CapOne credit card account and paid the MasterCard bill today with plans to call USAA to discuss the case of the missing ebills for my Capone MasterCard and Visa cards.

I called USAA and had a good conversation with knowledgeable folks, which also included the USAA contractor service that manages their ebill service. When the dust settled I found out that CapOne and Chase have recently stopped sending ebills to "external financial organizations"--I guess you must log onto your CapOne and Chase accounts to pay their ebills. Maybe CapOne and Chase don't like paying other financial institutions a small fee for ebill payments....who knows.

Anyway, if you use USAA Bill Pay to receive your ebill--and I expect any other bank/credit union Bill Pay--your ebills from CapOne and Chase may stop showing up...you'll need to log onto the CapOne and Chase websites to pay the bills.

This morning I had an email in my inbox regarding CapOne ebill service to external Bill Pay providers. I'm assuming it's from the USAA Bill Pay Customer Center since I had talked to them on the phone last night, but I can't tell for sure who it's from based on the "From" email address...maybe it's from from some central ebill support function regardless of which bank you use for your Bill Pay. Anyway, below is the redacted version to protect the innocent (me).

Note where it says the CapOne ebills will stop 8 Sep, but as I described in my email above the ebills from CapOne to USAA, at least for me, stopped in late June/early July for my CapOne MasterCard I've had for years because my monthly CapOne statement is posted the last few days of each month on the CapOne website and arrives my USAA Bill Pay during the first week of each month....and I usually pay it immediately around the 5-7th of each month. And m CapOne Visa ebill setup of a few months never resulted in an ebill from CapOne. Yea, yea, I could wait closer to the Statement Due date and earn another quarter penny on interest from the money staying in my bank account a little longer, but I just want to get it paid and forgot about after I review the statement, especially with internet issues that can pop up in Thailand. I'm just the type that likes to review bills before paying them...I don't do the autopay thing yet on any bills. I always assumed CapOne didn't transmit ebills to external sources immediately as they wanted the statement to first be available on your CapOne online account for review/payment before they sent it out to external financial organizations with online Bill Pay.

From: Your Online Bill Pay Provider [mailto:[email protected]]

Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2013 3:03 AM

To: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Subject: Important Information Regarding Your e-Bill Service for Capital One Credit Card

Dear XXXXXXXXXXXX,

As of September 8, 2013, you will no longer be able to receive e-Bills for your Capital One Credit Card account ending in XXXX. You will continue to receive paper statements from Capital One Credit Card, and you may continue to pay your bill using your online bill payment service.

Please note that any automatic payments based upon the delivery of your Capital One Credit Card e-Bill currently scheduled will be sent as instructed. As of September 8, no additional payments will be automatically scheduled based upon the delivery of this e-Bill.

We apologize for any inconvenience this may cause.

If you have any questions about receiving e-Bills, please contact Capital One using the phone number printed on your statement or on the back of your card.

Well, guess what happened the other day. I got a CapOne bill notice the other day from my USAA Bill Pay for my CapOne MasterCard credit card monthly bill which closed a few days ago/the end of July. As you will read above from my phone call to USAA Customer Service about the missing CapOne Ebill(s) and even the email notice USAA they sent me notifying me in writing of USAA not getting ebills from CapOne anymore, I figured the last ebill I got for the June bill cycle was the last one since apparently CapOne had apparently (at least in my case) had cut off ebills to external Bill Pays like USAA Bill Pay earlier than the 8 Sep 13 date mentioned in the USAA email above.

I had already paid the most recent MasterCard bill and Visa card bills (the Visa credit card bill I opened about 4 months ago never did result in an ebill coming to USAA even through I had requested the ebill thru USAA Bill Pay just like for my Mastercard) at the CapOne web site vs the USAA web site since I always got your monthly statement-is-ready notice from CapOne several days before USAA would send me a similar notice due to the few days lag in CapOne transmitting the ebill to external Bill Pays like USAA.

So, maybe for me and others of you using USAA to receive/pay your CapOne ebills, the CapOne ebills will continue to USAA for another month or so...to that 8 Sep 13 date. But for me, since I like as many of my ebills to be delivered to/be paid from one Bill Pay source like my USAA bank account, it sure would be nice if the CapOne ebills would continue to flow to external Bill Pays. Time will tell....will have to wait and see if I get any CapOne ebills via USAA after the 8 Sep 13 date.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Meanwhile in other news, here's a bit of good news and bad news for U.S. savers with rewards checking accounts.

The good news is a judge has struck down the Fed's policy on allowed fees charged merchants for handling debit card purchase transactions, suggesting the correct rate should have been a lower one suggested by the Fed's staff.

The bad new is, if the judge's ruling stands and is implemented, that may provide an excuse/reason for banks that offer rewards checking accounts to further lower the interest rates that those accounts currently pay, since their interest payments to savers are in part funding by those POS fees that banks collect from merchants...

It's reported the Fed may also appeal the lower court ruling, meaning the outcome may be in doubt for a while.

Debit Card Interchange Fee Ruling Could Impact Reward Checking

Aug 1, 2013 - 7:22 AM by Ken Tumin

A federal district court judge on Wednesday overturned a Federal Reserve rule capping interchange fees that banks receive on debit card purchases.

According to the Los Angeles Times:

In a scathing opinion Wednesday, U.S. District Judge Richard Leon agreed with retailers that the Fed went too easy on big banks in 2011 when it set the limit on such fees at 21 cents for each transaction, overruling its own staff's recommendation for a cap of 12 cents.

I had thought this debit card issue had long been settled. I reported on when the Fed announced the rules two years ago. The rules have been in effect since October 2011.

It may appear this ruling is good news since it’s against the big banks and the Federal Reserve. However, the ruling may affect small banks and credit unions, and it may not be good news for savers who have been helped by debit card reward programs like high-interest reward checking accounts.

MORE:

[Pib]

BTW, I posted a week or so back about encountering an AEON ATM that displayed a message on its video screen advising of a 20K per withdrawal limit.

I went to the same AEON ATM today and got the same message, but this time I was ready with my mobile phone camera... See below.

AEON ATM 20K Limit.jpg

OK, the last time I used my friendly AEON ATM in western Bangkok was 8 July...and I pulled 30K in one transaction. Today when I used the AEON ATM I first tried a 30K entry like I've successfully done many times before....after entering the 30K and pressing continue the screen went completely grey for a few seconds and then it just spits out my debit card. Of course my brain gets concerned maybe my bank account has just been charged for a 30K withdrawal which didn't spit out any money, no receipt...it just spit out my debt card. Before I started this withdrawal I paid particular attention to watch for any screen notices that said there was a 20K limit per withdrawal like TallGuy showed in his picture--there were none.

Being brave (some would say stupid) I decided to try it again...I slide in the card, entered 30K and the exact same thing happened again. So, maybe I'm now up to 60K in charges to my bank account but no money given. Once again I looked closely for any limitation notices....there were none.

So, I try again (super brave am I) but this time enter 20K and the machine works normally and spits out 20K along with a receipt and my debit card...success. I really wanted 30K which takes me real close to my US debit card $1,000 daily limit so I try another withdrawal for 10K so not to exceed my card's daily limit and that money spits out fine also.

I then go home to check my bank account to see if 4 transactions totaling 90K had hit my bank account...praise the lord only two transaction had hit (the 20K and 10K transaction) for a total of 30K.

So, it does appear AEON ATM is reducing the max withdrawal per transaction to 20K....they must be doing it in phases/machine-by-machine versus being able to send one command to change all AEON ATMs at the same time, since I had got 30K on 8 July weeks after a couple other folks had reported they had been limited to 20K. Shortly after jumping back in the car I thought to myself I should have tried a 21K entry to confirm the limit is indeed 20K versus maybe some amount between 20K and 30K. I'll give that a try next time...AEON ATM grey screens and my debit card being abruptly spit back out no longer scare me.

And I sure wish they would have put a limitation notice like TallGuy showed his AEON ATM reflected...but the one I was using just scares you by doing the grey screen, spitting the card out back at you, and then just going back to the opening screen like when you first pulled up to the ATM.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

You're braver than me, Pib...

I would have feared I had a failed ATM transaction where the funds were debited...but no bills produced from the ATM, and thus not wanted to potentially compound the problem by trying a second (or third) time... Glad to hear that wasn't the case.

In one sense, the 20K limit is a good thing, because it limits the potential exposure for those few people who rarely have had failed ATM transactions with AEON.... The only time having to do two transactions, instead of one, would be any issue is if one's home country bank was charging a flat amount per foreign ATM withdrawal fee. Hopefully most of us aren't using that variety of card.

As I've mentioned before, anytime I need to pull a larger amount from an AEON ATM, just out of an abundance of caution, I'll split the amount in half and do two back to back pulls... just to protect myself against the rare ATM glitch. But I know you're more of a big spender!

[Pib]

You're braver than me, Pib...

I would have feared I had a failed ATM transaction where the funds were debited...but no bills produced from the ATM, and thus not wanted to potentially compound the problem by trying a second (or third) time... Glad to hear that wasn't the case.

In one sense, the 20K limit is a good thing, because it limits the potential exposure for those few people who rarely have had failed ATM transactions with AEON.... The only time having to do two transactions, instead of one, would be any issue is if one's home country bank was charging a flat amount per foreign ATM withdrawal fee. Hopefully most of us aren't using that variety of card.

As I've mentioned before, anytime I need to pull a larger amount from an AEON ATM, just out of an abundance of caution, I'll split the amount in half and do two back to back pulls... just to protect myself against the rare ATM glitch. But I know you're more of a big spender!

Doing two withdrawals might reduce your chances for an ATM error; then again, the more withdrawals you do maybe just increase whatever the low odds of an error occurring in the first place. And you just know Murphy's Law will apply on the second, not the first, withdrawal.

Me a big spender...I wish; now my wife sometimes earns that award but not too often.

Edited August 5, 2013 by Pib

[4evermaat]

I can confirm the 20k baht limit at the Chumphon Town AEON ATM Now it actually says it on the screen where you can type in the amount you want to withdraw.

I can also confirm that AEON has changed the order of the screens slightly. Previously, it would ask you for what type of account you had (checking, savings, credit card) before you continue to request either a fixed amount or 'other' to input your own dollar amount.

But now it heads straight to the money amount request. If you pick a fixed amount, it might get rejected, as if you put in the incorrect pin. If you select "other" amount, THEN you get asked if it is checking, savings, or credit. Then the transaction will go through ok. I couldn't figure out why my transactions were getting rejected as I was 100% sure the pin was correct and I had enough money.

[JimGant]

Aeon reducing to 20k per pull may be strictly business -- as the reverse interchange fees they receive per transaction seem to be weighted in flat fee per transaction, with percentage fee for increased amounts pulled of lesser importance. So, Pib needs 30k, and it now takes two pulls vice the previous one, well. more interchange for Aeon. Hey, they are a business, after all.....

In ATM transactions, interchange is the fee that financial institutions that issue debit cards pay the ATM owner in exchange for the convenient access to customers’ bank accounts. It is set by the ATM networks. Interchange flows the opposite way, from merchant acquirer to card issuer, for debit and credit card purchases. Various forces have contributed to the ATM interchange fall-off, one of which is pressure by banks and credit unions on the networks to reduce their interchange expenses.

Based on an industry survey, the average interchange fee per withdrawal has declined from 55.5 cents in 2006 to 36.25 cents in 2012, according to the report. The report described the reduction in interchange to be the biggest concern of independent ATM distributors today, and it echoes concerns retail ATM executives voiced in this month’s Digital Transactions magazine.

That everyone is now holding up the line, pulling twice rather than once, doesn't make for consumer happiness. But, hey, the bottom line is looking fine. Besides, Aeon is well aware that for most (at least, most foreigners), without ATM fee transaction alternatives, they'll stand in line longer to avoid the 150/180 ATM fees.

Edited August 6, 2013 by JimGant

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

It's a funny thing, Jim... In years of using AEON ATMs at various malls right in the heart of BKK, I'm certainly a regular user and I've stood in my fair share of AEON lines, especially at month's end....

But only very very rarely, have I ever gone and seen any other farang using the AEON ATM, or waiting for one, at the same time. It's always long lines of Thais waiting to pay their bills....

And yet every day out and around town, I see tourists all over the place using regular Thai bank ATM machines, and paying big fees for the privilege of doing so.

I think the word isn't as well-known as we might think.

Ahh..brings to mind a episode of a few weeks back. I was sitting inside an SCB branch in a mall one weekend while my wife was opening a new account there, and while I waited, I noticed an American woman had come in and was having an extended conversation with the SCB greetings staff at the door. I couldn't tell all that they were discussing, but I did hear someone mention "AEON" at one point in the conversation. After a few minutes, she turned around and walked outside into the mall area.

After mulling it over for a moment or two, I decided to walk out into the mall and see if I could spot the lady and perhaps assist her. And sure enough, she was standing out nearby looking around and a bit befuddled, so I walked over to chat.

Basically, she was indeed a tourist, and knew that there was some kind of fee-free ATM here, but wasn't sure what kind or where... She said she'd gone to try the SCB ATM, gotten the ATM fee notice, and then had bailed out, and gone inside the SCB branch to ask. So I said, yes indeed, it's AEON, and I turned her around and pointed her to the AEON branch about 50 meters away where she could and did pull her cash.

Score one for the home team!

Edited August 6, 2013 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Thighlander]

I agree it is always almost all Thais in the Aeon line....and a big majority are putting money in; not taking it out like me. I also agree that it is much more common to see farang using SCB ATMs, and I've often wondered if they actually have accounts there, or are getting poked on the fee. I've had a BKK Bank account for 7 years, and originally didn't get the card because it was 300 thb for the first year; now it is more of a matter of fraud protection, or lack thereof, as to why I don't have a Thai ATM card.

Edited August 6, 2013 by Thighlander

[Pib]

Since this thread has got rather long and many people may be jumping towards the end to read posts, I would just like to post a particular weblink again which I think provides a lot of good basic Thai banking information. Specifically, it's Bankgok Bank's Expat Banking Booklet. It's only 28 pages long, written in layman's language, and easy reading. If the link don't work/happens to change you can find the booklet by going to the Bangkok Bank home page, under Personal Banking, Foreign Customers, then look in the upper right hand corner of the page....or at least that's where it's located right now.

Although it describes Bangkok Bank products/services, a lot of the info in the booklet generally applies to other Thai banks also since they all must comply with the same Thai financial laws and Bank of Thailand regulations. It's some really informative reading.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

What may also be very useful to folks here, meanwhile, is a resource that ThaiVisa member Pib helped surface in another thread, and that's the creation last year by the Bank of Thailand of a Financial Consumer Protection Center (FCC). This department of the BOT advertises that it's supposed to receive complaints from consumers/customers about problems with financial products and services, and attempt to mediate those issues between the customer and the financial institution.

Here's the link to the English language home page for the BOT's FCC:

http://www.bot.or.th/English/FinancialLiteracy/Pages/index.aspx

Here's their webpage for contacting them, which can be done in person at their main BKK office or one of their regional offices, by telephone, by email or by fax:

http://www.bot.or.th/English/FinancialLiteracy/Pages/FCC%20Strategy.aspx

The motto they list on their website is: "Enhancing Financial Literacy & Ensuring Fair Treatment of Financial Consumers".

Here's the Jan. 14, 2012 article from The Nation announcing the establishment of the FCC:

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/business/Protection-for-financial-consumers-30173701.html

And here's the BOT's news release announcing the same:

http://www.bot.or.th/Thai/FinancialLiteracy/PublishingImages/started_operation.pdf

It would appear, anyone who feels they have been victimized by some kind of financial scam such as bankcard fraud or funds stolen from a bank account certainly should be in contact with the FCC, in addition to their bank and local police.

Although the BOT's FCC has been in operation, supposedly, for a year and a half at this point, I suspect most or many of the expats in Thailand have never heard of this entity. Who knows the extent to which awareness of this department has filtered into the Thai community.

I did a quick Google search for their name in English, and found little mention or visible web activity in the wake of their formation announcement.

It's also curious, at best, that while the FCC says one of their missions is to improve financial consumers' awareness of their rights, there doesn't seem to be any information at all listed or linked on the FCC English website as to just what those rights are. There also is a Thai language version, of course, of the FCC's website, and it appears to contain a bit more detail and information, but not much I can find regarding consumers' legal rights here in regards to banking issues.

Anyone who has the misfortune of having a financial problem requiring the involvement of the FCC certainly is encouraged to post here on how that experience goes.

In my case, I had the opportunity to contact the BOT by telephone, as it turned out, a few months before the creation of the FCC, and ultimately got ahold of the correct manager to ask the following simple question: What if any regulations do the BOT or any other Thai government agencies have regarding bank cardholder liability for fraudulent transactions?

The manager understood my question, and promised to contact me back by telephone with an answer. A week or so passed and no contact back from the manager by phone or email. Tried calling a second time, couldn't reach the same manager so left a message. Waited another week and tried back for the same manager a third time, couldn't reach him again and left another message. Never ever did get any answer to my question from them.

I certainly hope, the FCC ends up doing a better job than that.

[CaptHaddock]

TallGuy,

Do you know what the BOT's relationship is with commercial banks in Thailand. Do they have regulatory authority over them? Are there multiple regulatory agencies, as in the US?

Thanks for the links, BTW.

What may also be very useful to folks here, meanwhile, is a resource that ThaiVisa member Pib helped surface in another thread, and that's the creation last year by the Bank of Thailand of a Financial Consumer Protection Center (FCC). This department of the BOT advertises that it's supposed to receive complaints from consumers/customers about problems with financial products and services, and attempt to mediate those issues between the customer and the financial institution.

Here's the link to the English language home page for the BOT's FCC:

http://www.bot.or.th/English/FinancialLiteracy/Pages/index.aspx

Here's their webpage for contacting them, which can be done in person at their main BKK office or one of their regional offices, by telephone, by email or by fax:

http://www.bot.or.th/English/FinancialLiteracy/Pages/FCC%20Strategy.aspx

The motto they list on their website is: "Enhancing Financial Literacy & Ensuring Fair Treatment of Financial Consumers".

Here's the Jan. 14, 2012 article from The Nation announcing the establishment of the FCC:

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/business/Protection-for-financial-consumers-30173701.html

And here's the BOT's news release announcing the same:

http://www.bot.or.th/Thai/FinancialLiteracy/PublishingImages/started_operation.pdf

It would appear, anyone who feels they have been victimized by some kind of financial scam such as bankcard fraud or funds stolen from a bank account certainly should be in contact with the FCC, in addition to their bank and local police.

Although the BOT's FCC has been in operation, supposedly, for a year and a half at this point, I suspect most or many of the expats in Thailand have never heard of this entity. Who knows the extent to which awareness of this department has filtered into the Thai community.

I did a quick Google search for their name in English, and found little mention or visible web activity in the wake of their formation announcement.

It's also curious, at best, that while the FCC says one of their missions is to improve financial consumers' awareness of their rights, there doesn't seem to be any information at all listed or linked on the FCC English website as to just what those rights are. There also is a Thai language version, of course, of the FCC's website, and it appears to contain a bit more detail and information, but not much I can find regarding consumers' legal rights here in regards to banking issues.

Anyone who has the misfortune of having a financial problem requiring the involvement of the FCC certainly is encouraged to post here on how that experience goes.

In my case, I had the opportunity to contact the BOT by telephone, as it turned out, a few months before the creation of the FCC, and ultimately got ahold of the correct manager to ask the following simple question: What if any regulations do the BOT or any other Thai government agencies have regarding bank cardholder liability for fraudulent transactions?

The manager understood my question, and promised to contact me back by telephone with an answer. A week or so passed and no contact back from the manager by phone or email. Tried calling a second time, couldn't reach the same manager so left a message. Waited another week and tried back for the same manager a third time, couldn't reach him again and left another message. Never ever did get any answer to my question from them.

I certainly hope, the FCC ends up doing a better job than that.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Captain, I believe the BOT has primary and direct regulatory control over the commercial banks in Thailand, as well as some related financing agencies.

Others like the Ministry of Finance may play some role as well. I'm not sure about the extent of other agencies' involvement.

Thus the Financial Consumer Protection Center mentioned above is a department within the banks' primary regulatory agency.

But whether the FCC has any actual influence on behalf of consumers, or is just political window dressing, will be interesting to see over time.

[fletchsmile]

...

Do you know what the BOT's relationship is with commercial banks in Thailand. Do they have regulatory authority over them? Are there multiple regulatory agencies, as in the US?

....

Bank of Thailand is the country's central bank. Under certain countries banking models the central bank is also the key regulator, and that's the case with Thailand.

There's some useful info sometimes on their website these days, also in English.

http://www.bot.or.th/English/AboutBOT/index/Pages/RolesAndResponsibilities.aspx (Roles and Responsibilities)

http://www.bot.or.th/English/AboutBOT/strategicplan/Pages/strategicplan.aspx (Strategic Plan, Vision and Mission)

http://www.bot.or.th/English/AboutBOT/Documents/organ_Eng.pdf (Org Chart)

http://www.bot.or.th/English/FinancialInstitutions/Pages/index.aspx

The Thai version is more comprehensive, for example the Prudential Regulations are in Thai only:

http://www.bot.or.th/Thai/FinancialInstitutions/PruReg_HB/PruReg_HB/Pages/PruReg_HB.aspx

http://www.bot.or.th/Thai/FinancialInstitutions/PruReg_HB/PruReg_HB/Documents/13families.pdf

There's a search function which is a bit hit and miss, but a bit better if you read Thai. For example if you key in การคุ้มครองผู้บริโภค for "consumer protection" results are variable. As webdesign is usually constructed in English language in English you may also get some clue of the topic in the utrl field, as that will be English. As an example:

http://www2.bot.or.th/Search/SearchResults.aspx?Qry=%E0%B8%81%E0%B8%B2%E0%B8%A3%E0%B8%84%E0%B8%B8%E0%B9%89%E0%B8%A1%E0%B8%84%E0%B8%A3%E0%B8%AD%E0%B8%87%E0%B8%9C%E0%B8%B9%E0%B9%89%E0%B8%9A%E0%B8%A3%E0%B8%B4%E0%B9%82%E0%B8%A0%E0%B8%84&UICulture=th-TH

Every year they publish a Supervision Report. 2012 is not available yet and the last was 2011. In it they summarise key aspects of:

- economy and banking

- developments in the regulatory framework and often further plans. So they will mention events that arise like:

Financial Sector Mater Plan 2 (FSMP 2 relaxed regulations for foreign banks, eg number branches)

Formation of new bodies and committees such as FCC

ASEAN 2015

They also have a library and archives (physical as well as online):

http://www.bot.or.th/English/LibraryAndArchives/Pages/Library.aspx

http://www.bot.or.th/English/LibraryAndArchives/ArchiveServices/Pages/Archive_services.aspx

Note: One problem with Thai banking legislation and information in general is the way it frequently cross references to other pieces of legislation. So when you read say the Financial Institutions Act 2008, Basel II, Basel III regulations etc they have references to many other docs, circulars and addendums. That can be one reason it's difficult to pin down an actual point on a topic - even when you know it is there - one key doc may refer to another.

These days they have some very bright people working for them. They are often seconded overseas to other institutions including US. In addition BOT will sponsor and pay for degrees for bright individuals in finance related fields, in return for them committing to work for BOT afterwards. eg BOT pays for a Bachelors in the US and they commit 5 (or 7? can't quite remember) years of work to BOT. Add on a Masters and it becomes 10, add on a PHD = 15 etc

Cheers

Fletch

Edited August 10, 2013 by fletchsmile

[infinity11]

OP

Thanks for the thread.

You had a good idea.

Now we need a summary.

I am not reading 500 posts.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

OP

Thanks for the thread.

You had a good idea.

Now we need a summary.

I am not reading 500 posts.

Quite a good point! Such is the dilemma of Internet bulletin boards...

If you have a general question, ask it here.

If you're looking for tips about what debit cards to use in Thailand and not pay foreign currency fees, look here:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/654140-best-no-fee-low-fee-bank-cards-for-americans-2013/?p=6696904

[infinity11]

This is a bit off topic but very important.

How safe are banks? insured or not?

If there is a run, knock on wood, how many banks in the USA and Thailand will still be solvent?

Would thai banks fair the same worse or better than in the states?

I know very hard to say.

If you think it is a stupid question research 'fractional reserve banking'

I am still trying to figure out the best thing to do with my thai cash, required for my kind of visa.

Edited August 11, 2013 by infinity11

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

I think some of the broader questions you ask would be difficult for anyone to answer in any meaningful way, since you seem to be talking in part about some kind of global financial meltdown. And I'm not especially good with doomsday scenarios.

But on a more basic and practical level, both U.S. banks and the Thai banking system have government sponsored deposit insurance schemes. The U.S. overseen by the FDIC and covering up to $250,000 per account/per bank. And the Thai system overseen by a Thai government entity called the Deposit Protection Agency.

Here's the homepage for the Thai DPA...

http://www.dpa.or.th/main.php?filename=index___EN

Both government programs are designed to protect depositors' funds against the potential financial failure of any participating banks. AFAIK, the FDIC in the U.S. has never failed to honor its legal commitments under that program. I can't speak with any knowledge on how the DPA has responded to foreigners in any past Thai bank failures that may have occurred during its existence.

If you're talking about the requirement for retirement extensions to have 800,000 baht on deposit in a Thai bank, that works out to $26,000 to $27,000 U.S. -- which certainly would be covered by the current or future planned Thai DPA schemes. The government had been planning to reduce its deposit insurance down to 1 million baht ($32,000+ U.S.) effective this month, but that plan was pushed back so now the reduction to that level isn't supposed to come until August 2016.

Here's a good background article on the Thai DPA system, although the reduction in coverage mentioned in this article has been delayed as I just mentioned:

http://www.thailawforum.com/thai-deposit-insurance-law.html

Meanwhile, be aware that if you keep more than $10,000 in a foreign bank account at any point during the year, that will trigger some additional reporting requirements back in the U.S. Read up on an IRS program known as FBAR, which can have serious consequences if not complied with.

http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Small-Businesses-&-Self-Employed/Report-of-Foreign-Bank-and-Financial-Accounts-%28FBAR%29

Back on the visas thing for a moment. Be aware, if you're doing a retirement extension of stay from Thai Immigration inside Thailand and plan to meet the financial test by depositing 800,000 baht, those funds must be in a bank in Thailand. But if you're planning to do a O-A retirement visa from one of the Thai consulates in the U.S., that same 800,000 baht worth of funds can stay in a U.S. bank. It doesn't need to be transferred/deposited in Thailand.

Also be aware, that Thai Immigration usually wants Thai bank deposit funds used for qualifying for a retirement extension to be held in a liquid account like a savings account. Most offices also seem to accept time deposits (the Thai version of CDs), although some members here have reported various Immigration offices upcountry balking at the use of those. Beyond those two general choices, I don't think there are a lot of other account types that are going to satisfy Thai Immigration.

But overall, speaking as an American, I don't have too much worry that if any of my U.S. banks were to fail, that my funds on deposit would be protected by the FDIC within its $250,000 per account/per bank limit and I'd get my funds back in short order, usually in a matter of days. Unfortunately, considering the way the Thai government operates and how foreigners fare here, I can't say I have the same level of confidence with the Thai DPA for farang depositors. That's just my personal opinion.

Here, by the way, is a DPA webpage that charts out the process and timeframes involved in filing a claim for reimbursement in the event a covered Thai bank were to fail. Unlike the normal U.S. process, the Thai procees as laid out on this webpage would take at least several months to resolve, and that's if all their timelines were followed as stipulated.

http://www.dpa.or.th/ewt_news.php?nid=372&filename=index___EN

But if you're talking about something more dire than a single bank failure like a global financial meltdown, who knows....

Edited August 11, 2013 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

BTW, I should add, the Thai DPA didn't exist during the Asian financial meltdown of the late 1990s, and was only enacted later via a 2008 law and the enactment of a kind of tax on Thai banks based on deposited funds to fund the DPA reimbursement fund.

According to the latest 2011 annual report of the DPA, the burden of reimbursing depositors in the late 1990s fell to the Thai government and resulted in a large public debt burden that, I gather, lingers to current times.

[fletchsmile]

Infinity11

During the 1997 Asian Crisis the Thai government guaranteed all financial institution deposits, via the Financial insitutions Development Fund (FIDF). This was needed to shore up a severe lack of confidence in the Thai banking system. This continued, even after the crisis passed, until 2008 when they brought in the DPA - a reflection less need for blanket guarantees, as well as the times.

There are parallels with the western global financial crisis, when in 2008 the US banking system (and other western banks) suffered a severe lack of confidence, and the US government stepped in and temporarily increased the $100k limit to $250k to try and stabilise things. The temporary increase was then extended and made permanent. Several other western countries put in much bigger guarantees than they previously had.

Thai banks learnt a lot from their mistakes in 1997, and their financial health in the 21st century reflects this. As does their Prudential regulatory environment. People worry about a repeat of 1997 in Thailand for Thai banks - these tend to be uniformed people who haven't noticed or understood how much has changed. The irony of course is that Thai banks are relaxing things a little and considering reducing DPA amounts, while they are still very much needed for confidence in the west. That's one good reflection of where we are today.

Unfortunately while Asia had learnt a lot of lessons from its crisis, the West hadn't learnt those same lessons. During the "global" financial crisis while the western banks were collapsing, needed bailouts and support, and requiring government intervention Thai banks came through relatively unscathed. The Western Prudential regimes often came up short.

I was working in a bank here at the time as part of the senior management and risk team focusing on exactly these issues, and while the Thai banks were on high alert and taking proactive / precautionary steps to manage liquidity and credit positions, in reality they came through with flying colours compared to the US. I felt much safer with some of my money in Thailand at that point than with my money in US or UK.

There was a real risk of systemic failure in places like US and UK as you'll recall. While I thought it might be unlikely, I was worried enough to consider what if... At times the possibility really didn't seem that far away either. The fact the US and UK are still dealing with it 5 years later is an indication of how bad it was. That risk still exists in my view, although it has lessened. The capital adequacy and liquidity positions of many US banks - particularly if Basel III were to be factored in - aren't always that healthy today, and there is definitely more capital needed in the US system. Thai banks remain on the whole well capitalised with adequate liquidity in system and are actually well on the way to adopting Basel III. The US is still struggling with this and political vested interests lobbying. The US also has its fair share of SIFIs (Significant Financial Institutions) that are tagged as such because of their systematic importance and risk to the whole system.

You're right also to entertain the risk of systemic failure. Let's put it this way, in addition to the GFC, if the worlds banks need to bring in new regulations to protect against this, then the risk is real. That Thai banks are well into Basel III whereas US banks lack the capital is one reflection of where we are today.

While the US may score highly for consumer protection compared to Thailand, when looking at Prudential Factors and systemic risk I'm more comfortable with my Thai banks since the global financial crisis and that continues at the moment. Ironically protectionist policies while a nuisance to us foreigners in every day life, do have benefits to us and Thailand in times of crisis. I still see risk factors that could blow up in the US and the patient is still far from healthy. US still has QE, low interest rates for the foreseeable, struggling economy, various credit time bombs still lurking (credit cards, student loand being among the more transparent), depreciating currency, gradual risk (less likely sudden) loss of its status as world's reserve currency, pending possible crisis when bond prices fall as interest rates and yields rise, a government that can't afford to pay its ever increasing debts, etc etc

The fractional reserve banking you refer to is also much more an issue in the US, as the products banks use and the way many banks get clever can really distort leverage ratios. BOT is much tougher and more restrictive on esoteric banking products, to the benefit of the public.

The US system is very reliant on the government looking after people. Unfortunately not enough people consider the what ifs, and the US government in the 21st century has a lot of issues. The rate of bankruptcies and failures in the US is partly a reflection of people relying on government guarantees rather than seeking out the better quality banks. There's not much incentive to, if you know the government covers you. This increases the risk if something goes wrong with the US government then all the US dominoes fall. 2008/9 was a frightening time though, when people were not sure if the government's pockets were deep enough, and how exactly to rescue things - Europe too.

Luckily where to put your money doesn't have to be an either or choice. Personally for me: I keep money in my original home country, money in Thailand, and money offshore. I've done this for many years. I used to aim for 1/3, 1/3, 1/3

Since 2008 in particular it's been a great comfort to have money and assets here and have a little extra insulation from western problems. The THB has also fared well. US is likely to continue weakening longer term. 2000 - 2010 was somewhat of a loss decade too for US stock markets - definitely not so Thailand. So I've actually ended up with more exposure to Thailand, THB and money here than my usual targets, as a result of failures in the west, but in recent years I feel no major urge to re-balance, even though a bit overweight here.

If someone changes their mind-set, Thailand can be looked at as an opportunity to protect themself against some of the risks you mention back home. As you rightly highlight risk comes in many forms, and diversification can be part of the solution.

Cheers

Fletch

Edited August 11, 2013 by fletchsmile

[fletchsmile]

BTW, I should add, the Thai DPA didn't exist during the Asian financial meltdown of the late 1990s, and was only enacted later via a 2008 law and the enactment of a kind of tax on Thai banks based on deposited funds to fund the DPA reimbursement fund.

According to the latest 2011 annual report of the DPA, the burden of reimbursing depositors in the late 1990s fell to the Thai government and resulted in a large public debt burden that, I gather, lingers to current times.

Part of the funding of the burden was passed on to Thai banks via an FIDF charge levied twice a year based on the deposits held by banks.

The fiddling around with the principle amounts of that debt was part of the manipulation of Yingluck and co, to shift the burden from government to others. Luckily the amounts are still manageable in the context of the country's debt, even though "reclassified". The context of US and UK debt problems are much bigger.

Edited August 11, 2013 by fletchsmile

[vagabond48]

I want to update the thread regarding my Fidelity debit card.

As I have mentioned a number of times, I have never been charged the 1% foreign exchange fee when withdrawing from ATMs which is the only way I have used the card.

I was shopping at Big C and I didn't realize that I gave the cashier my DC rather than my CC. When I got home I checked the amount I was charged and the exchange rate was normal. I happen to be online and saw that the amount originally posted increased by 1%. I thought I would make a small test purchase using the Fidelity DC again. The amount that was posted was $1.92. I went online 2 days later and the amount changed to $1.94 so I guess the Fidelity reps are partially right. You do get charged 1% when making a purchase. I am not sure why they don't take the 1 % at the time the transaction is initially posted.

I also recently found out that I can do a teller counter withdrawal of upto $2499 (not $2500). Now, I wonder if such a transaction will also incur the 1% FE fee? I wish I could make a small test at the bank as well. I suspect they would think I am nuts if asked them to make a 100B withdrawal. I have been a little friendly with the officer who originally made several Schwab withdrawal a few months ago. Perhaps, she might allow me to do a small withdrawal test.

Edited August 22, 2013 by vagabond48

[Pib]

BTW, I posted a week or so back about encountering an AEON ATM that displayed a message on its video screen advising of a 20K per withdrawal limit.

I went to the same AEON ATM today and got the same message, but this time I was ready with my mobile phone camera... See below.

AEON ATM 20K Limit.jpg

OK, the last time I used my friendly AEON ATM in western Bangkok was 8 July...and I pulled 30K in one transaction. Today when I used the AEON ATM I first tried a 30K entry like I've successfully done many times before....after entering the 30K and pressing continue the screen went completely grey for a few seconds and then it just spits out my debit card. Of course my brain gets concerned maybe my bank account has just been charged for a 30K withdrawal which didn't spit out any money, no receipt...it just spit out my debt card. Before I started this withdrawal I paid particular attention to watch for any screen notices that said there was a 20K limit per withdrawal like TallGuy showed in his picture--there were none.

Being brave (some would say stupid) I decided to try it again...I slide in the card, entered 30K and the exact same thing happened again. So, maybe I'm now up to 60K in charges to my bank account but no money given. Once again I looked closely for any limitation notices....there were none.

So, I try again (super brave am I) but this time enter 20K and the machine works normally and spits out 20K along with a receipt and my debit card...success. I really wanted 30K which takes me real close to my US debit card $1,000 daily limit so I try another withdrawal for 10K so not to exceed my card's daily limit and that money spits out fine also.

I then go home to check my bank account to see if 4 transactions totaling 90K had hit my bank account...praise the lord only two transaction had hit (the 20K and 10K transaction) for a total of 30K.

So, it does appear AEON ATM is reducing the max withdrawal per transaction to 20K....they must be doing it in phases/machine-by-machine versus being able to send one command to change all AEON ATMs at the same time, since I had got 30K on 8 July weeks after a couple other folks had reported they had been limited to 20K. Shortly after jumping back in the car I thought to myself I should have tried a 21K entry to confirm the limit is indeed 20K versus maybe some amount between 20K and 30K. I'll give that a try next time...AEON ATM grey screens and my debit card being abruptly spit back out no longer scare me.

And I sure wish they would have put a limitation notice like TallGuy showed his AEON ATM reflected...but the one I was using just scares you by doing the grey screen, spitting the card out back at you, and then just going back to the opening screen like when you first pulled up to the ATM.

I just used above AEON ATM again in my local Lotus mall for four transactions...wanted to chargeup my Thai bank account....each time I looked very closely for any max withdrawal amount notice anywhere on any screen--there was no notice at all....I guess whoever setup this ATM forgot to setup a max withdrawal notice.

But this time I didn't try to pull more than Bt20K on each transactions....I just did a Bt20K and Bt11K with my no foreign transaction fee St Farm debit card since I can pull $1000/day. Then I in my slide in my no foreign transaction fee Schwab debit card (another $1000/day), punched in Bt20K, and when it started processing the transaction the screen came up with a "Transaction failed/rejected, contact your card issuer." Since we had seen a one or two recent posts about Schwab canceling some folks accounts bad things ran through my mind. But I slide the card back in again, punched in Bt10K and the transaction processed/money spit out fine...then I slide the card in again and punched in Bt20K and the transaction processed/money spit out OK. Then took my Bt61K around the corner in the mall to the Bangkok Bank branch to deposit via the Cash Deposit Machine (CDM)....but when I got there a bank clerk and customer were standing in front of the CDM like the customer had just had a problem...the clerk was just closing out the CDM and giving the customer some paperwork and a number she could call tomorrow...can't be sure but maybe it appeared the customer had a deposit problem with the CDM. The bank clerk then reactivated the CDM, waived me forward that I could now use it...so I slide my Bt61K into the CDM...it accepts Bt60K...I have to readd/reinsert one bill it initially rejected (not uncommon for a few bills to be initially rejected)...it took the bill this time....transaction completed and gave me my Bt61K receipt. I then get home to check my Schwab account and only the two transactions that gave me money had hit my account....the other one that was initially rejected for Bt20K had not....relief. For all four transaction I gov the full Visa rate for today to the third decimal point. But the primarily relief had come right after the initial Schwab card rejection when the card was then accepted for the following two transactions. That one Schwab card rejection was just a glitch but gave me a brief scare.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Pib, I had a similar thing happen a week or so ago with a standalone AEON ATM and one of my small bank ATM cards.

Put the card in, entered the pin, ordered by small amount withdrawal, and then got the error message saying similar to what you wrote: "Transaction failed/rejected, contact your card issuer."

Canceled the transaction at that point, withdrew my card, moved to the adjoining 2nd AEON ATM, repeated the same process, and my withdrawal went thru fine.

I doubt very much there was any problem about your (or my) cards. More likely, something in the data networking connection between the ATM and whatever central system it connects to.

[55Jay]

BTW, I posted a week or so back about encountering an AEON ATM that displayed a message on its video screen advising of a 20K per withdrawal limit.

I went to the same AEON ATM today and got the same message, but this time I was ready with my mobile phone camera... See below.

AEON ATM 20K Limit.jpg

OK, the last time I used my friendly AEON ATM in western Bangkok was 8 July...and I pulled 30K in one transaction. Today when I used the AEON ATM I first tried a 30K entry like I've successfully done many times before....after entering the 30K and pressing continue the screen went completely grey for a few seconds and then it just spits out my debit card. Of course my brain gets concerned maybe my bank account has just been charged for a 30K withdrawal which didn't spit out any money, no receipt...it just spit out my debt card. Before I started this withdrawal I paid particular attention to watch for any screen notices that said there was a 20K limit per withdrawal like TallGuy showed in his picture--there were none.

Being brave (some would say stupid) I decided to try it again...I slide in the card, entered 30K and the exact same thing happened again. So, maybe I'm now up to 60K in charges to my bank account but no money given. Once again I looked closely for any limitation notices....there were none.

So, I try again (super brave am I) but this time enter 20K and the machine works normally and spits out 20K along with a receipt and my debit card...success. I really wanted 30K which takes me real close to my US debit card $1,000 daily limit so I try another withdrawal for 10K so not to exceed my card's daily limit and that money spits out fine also.

I then go home to check my bank account to see if 4 transactions totaling 90K had hit my bank account...praise the lord only two transaction had hit (the 20K and 10K transaction) for a total of 30K.

So, it does appear AEON ATM is reducing the max withdrawal per transaction to 20K....they must be doing it in phases/machine-by-machine versus being able to send one command to change all AEON ATMs at the same time, since I had got 30K on 8 July weeks after a couple other folks had reported they had been limited to 20K. Shortly after jumping back in the car I thought to myself I should have tried a 21K entry to confirm the limit is indeed 20K versus maybe some amount between 20K and 30K. I'll give that a try next time...AEON ATM grey screens and my debit card being abruptly spit back out no longer scare me.

And I sure wish they would have put a limitation notice like TallGuy showed his AEON ATM reflected...but the one I was using just scares you by doing the grey screen, spitting the card out back at you, and then just going back to the opening screen like when you first pulled up to the ATM.

I just used above AEON ATM again in my local Lotus mall for four transactions...wanted to chargeup my Thai bank account....each time I looked very closely for any max withdrawal amount notice anywhere on any screen--there was no notice at all....I guess whoever setup this ATM forgot to setup a max withdrawal notice.

But this time I didn't try to pull more than Bt20K on each transactions....I just did a Bt20K and Bt11K with my no foreign transaction fee St Farm debit card since I can pull $1000/day. Then I in my slide in my no foreign transaction fee Schwab debit card (another $1000/day), punched in Bt20K, and when it started processing the transaction the screen came up with a "Transaction failed/rejected, contact your card issuer." Since we had seen a one or two recent posts about Schwab canceling some folks accounts bad things ran through my mind. But I slide the card back in again, punched in Bt10K and the transaction processed/money spit out fine...then I slide the card in again and punched in Bt20K and the transaction processed/money spit out OK. Then took my Bt61K around the corner in the mall to the Bangkok Bank branch to deposit via the Cash Deposit Machine (CDM)....but when I got there a bank clerk and customer were standing in front of the CDM like the customer had just had a problem...the clerk was just closing out the CDM and giving the customer some paperwork and a number she could call tomorrow...can't be sure but maybe it appeared the customer had a deposit problem with the CDM. The bank clerk then reactivated the CDM, waived me forward that I could now use it...so I slide my Bt61K into the CDM...it accepts Bt60K...I have to readd/reinsert one bill it initially rejected (not uncommon for a few bills to be initially rejected)...it took the bill this time....transaction completed and gave me my Bt61K receipt. I then get home to check my Schwab account and only the two transactions that gave me money had hit my account....the other one that was initially rejected for Bt20K had not....relief. For all four transaction I gov the full Visa rate for today to the third decimal point. But the primarily relief had come right after the initial Schwab card rejection when the card was then accepted for the following two transactions. That one Schwab card rejection was just a glitch but gave me a brief scare.

Huh. Exact same thing with my Schwab card at Aeon earlier this week. All sorts of thoughts went through my head but second attempt for 20k worked followed by 3rd w/d for 10k. This machine does display the max 20k limit on screen.

Coincidence, but also had a first time cock up with the BKK CDM following Aeon w/d. Accepted 29 of the 30k deposit then shut down on me when replacing the rejected 1,000 note. Luckily, guy came out, pulled out the limbo cash and did the full deposit manually inside the branch.

[Pib]

Yea, I hoped it was just a telecommunications glitch. And the reason I tried Bt10K on the first retry vs Bt20K again was I thought "maybe" Schwab lowered the daily limit from $1000 to $500 and I just hadn't got the memo. Plus I knew that ATM/internet banking errors message are sometimes vague and/or imply the problem is elsewhere. So, I still have enough brain cells left to figure that if the Schwab limit had changed to $500 then I could pull up to Bt15K, but the finger entered Bt10K for some reason and the transaction processed no problem...followed by another successful transaction for Bt20K. Yeap, just an electronic glitch occurred somewhere along the line.

Even through I used CDMs a lot I will only use them when the branch is open....that way, if some problem occurs I can go running for a bank clerk...but so far, no need to go run grab a clerk. There was one time when I was depositing Bt60K with new 1000 baht bills fresh out of the AEON ATM, that the CDM initially rejected over half of them....I stuck them back in and it took about half of those....put those back in and it took about half of those.....I think it took six reinsertions to get the CDM to accept all of them. Not uncommon for the CDM to initially reject a few notes and you will need to reinsert/read those one more time or maybe again. But on this day where I had to readd some notes about a half dozen times was setting a new record for me. Expect that CDM needed realignment/recalibration. I have also tried different ways of inserting the notes to see if that will help in initial reject rates...like the face portrait facing one direction or the other....portrait right side up or upside down...but it doesn't seem to help...when a CDM has issues with a note it don't seem to matter which way you insert it in the hole....just keep inserting till it takes it or replace it with one from your billfold which I've done once or twice.

Yeap, even with occasional minor ATM and CDM issues using my no foreign transaction fee debit cards to get money out of the ATM immediately and fee free at the full Visa exchange rate and then putting that money back into a Thai bank CDM a few steps away sure beats going the SWIFT/ACH route for my "day-to-day" livings expenses since I incur absolutely no fees anywhere between my home country bank until the money is in my hand....and I get the full Visa exchange rate which is plus or minus a few stang of the TT Buying Rate. Like today's withdrawals...I got the zero fee Visa exchange rate of 31.84 compared to Bangkok Bank TT Buying Rate which was also 31.84...if I could have got to the ATM yesterday I would have got 31.86 and I think the TT Buying Rate was 31.84 yesterday also....but I got bogged down in cleaning a split A/C in my house plus it was raining in the afternoon. I think the last time I did an ACH transfer was Jun 11....but I have no doubt I will use ACH transfers again in the future when I need some BIG money within a few business days or maybe if AEON starts charging the Bt150 foreign Visa card fee like Thai banks do now and Schwab/St Farm would stop ATM fee reimbursements.. But I going to try to keep my unbroken record so far of not helping to kill the ATM Fee Reimbursement Goose/have Schwab or St Farm spend money on me unnecessarily (might draw their attention also) by using Thai bank ATMs which charge a foreign card fee to withdraw money from my home country accounts. Preaching to the choir leader I know.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Re CDMs, I have similar kinds of experiences... The first time, it kind of freaked me out, as I wondered whether I somehow might have gotten a counterfeit 1,000 bill.

But no, try again with the same bill, rejected. Try a third time with the same bill, accepted. Most of the time, all my bills get recognized and accepted. Sometimes, a few get kicked back. Usually, a second or third retry gets those same bills to go thru. Usually, if it doesn't go thru the first time, I'll make sure any creases or wrinkles are smoothed out, same with any small folded corners. And if that doesn't work, I'll always try inserting the bill in some different orientation. One way or another, that usually works.

[Pib]

I got a call from Visa Fraud Prevention Services this afternoon regarding my three ATM transactions....that is, the one transaction that initially rejected followed by the two what processed OK. They just wanted to confirm it was indeed me that did the transactions....and they knew one had rejected and the two other processed OK...the exact amounts, etc. I told them my story about the probable telecommunications glitch on the first try and how the next two processed OK. They said they had approx. 570 flags in their system which can trigger a possible fraud alert. Anyway, they said my card was still good to go/good to use...have a nice day. I'll try the card again in a few days just to make sure the card is still good to go. But nice to see the Visa folks are looking out for me. The last time I got a possible fraudulent transaction call was around 10 years ago from Bank of America on my BoA credit card regarding a transaction made in Spain...someone was trying to buy some books online using my credit card number...I told them, Nope, that definitely wasn't me. They cancelled my card and got a new one to me within about a week.

Edited August 24, 2013 by Pib