Banking For Americans In Thailand 101

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

I think that's correct, Jim...

For example, I have a Cap One straight ATM card (no VISA or MC logo on the front, and just a Cirrus logo on the back side) that will not work with AEON ATMs.... It's a card associated with a Cap One Money Market Savings account.

But as best as I recall, some years back when that card instead ran on the PLUS network, it did work with AEON ATMs. The change to Cirrus is what killed it with AEON...and of course, the lack of a VISA/MC debit function.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

fyi, the Citibank Thailand ATMs located at Interchange Tower Asoke, Central World and Silom are now charging the same 150b withdrawal fee as all the other Thai banks on ATM withdrawals made using foreign ATM cards. That leaves AEON ATMs as the only fee-free ATM option that I'm aware of for foreigners in Thailand.

[Mike45]

Last year the Citibank ATM in Central World charged me a 150 baht fee using my Citibank USA ATM card. I stopped doing business with CitiBank and have given up their Global Executive Banking I found it worthless.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Thanks for the posts helping clarify the timing of Citibank Thailand's change on this...

AFAIK, no one here on ThaiVisa posted on the change previously until this thead.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

How My Friend Lost 15K Baht W His Bangkok Bank Debit Visa

Started by AlexDorneles

http://www.thaivisa....ank-debit-visa/

Just a reminder - NO consumer fraud protection with Thai bank-issued debit and credit cards.

Edited February 18, 2013 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Another "happy" Thai banking customer:

PHUKET: -- German expat Dirk Schmidt had B600,000 skimmed from his Kasikornbank account in early January, and more than four months later is still waiting for developments in the case.

The money was taken from his account on January 5, 6 and 7 this year – B200,000 each day, his account’s daily withdrawal limit. Bank records show the money was taken in around 30 different transactions, at three different ATMs on Koh Samui, while Mr Schmidt was in Phuket.

MORE:

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

fyi, noticed lately there is now a very nice new AEON ATM office and pair of ATMs in the main banking area on the 4th floor of Central World.

AEON ATMs continue to be the best way for holders of non-Thai bank cards to avoid the ATM withdrawal fees charged by all the regular Thai banks.

If you use other than AEON ATMs, foreign VISA logo cards will still draw a 150 baht per withdrawal fee from the Thai banks, but their rate for foreign MasterCard logo cards has recently increased to 180 baht per withdrawal... no explanation given.

But AEON ATMs... no fee charged for either VISA or MC logo bank cards by AEON... But check your card issuing bank for any potential fee they may charge for using their card outside its home country.

BTW, there still are the pair of AEON ATMs located across the street in the main upstairs banking area of the Big C Rajadamri there.

New AEON ATMs at CentralWorld

Other area BKK AEON ATM locations besides CentralWorld and Big C Raja include:

--parking level of Siam Paragon

--lower level of Terminal 21

--Ekamai Gateway Center

--Big C On Nut

--banking area of Central Rama 9

--Tesco FortuneTown

--banking area of Central Silom/Silom Complex

and more....

Edited June 10, 2013 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[lopburi3]

Have not checked as do not use foreign ATM cards for cash but the new MaxValu chain of supermarkets/convenience stores is part of the Jusco/Aeon chain so expect will have there ATM's. In Bangkok they are opening in almost every area.

[Pib]

Have not checked as do not use foreign ATM cards for cash but the new MaxValu chain of supermarkets/convenience stores is part of the Jusco/Aeon chain so expect will have there ATM's. In Bangkok they are opening in almost every area.

Never heard of them until you mentioned them. Here's their web page (I think) with a list of stores/locations but the list is approaching 2 years old. Looks like the stores are mostly located in central Bangkok.

[ianguygil]

MaxValu is a Japanese chain which is opening up all over Bangkok as noted. You can recognize them by their bright pink stores. They are a real player in Japan, larger than the 7/11, Family Mart, Lawson's chains but smaller than a full scale supermarket.

Not sure about ATMs there. But they are a well established chain in Japan

[JimGant]

but their rate for foreign MasterCard logo cards has recently increased to 180 baht per withdrawal... no explanation given.

Sounds like MC is leading the race to the bottom for lower "reverse interchange" fees paid to ATM machine owners.

http://www.digitaltransactions.net/news/story/3952

Several years ago (about the time we saw the 150 baht fee implemented) there was an article about MC's declining payments to ATM owners in contrast to Visa (although both were lowering these rates). Good bet that this is what's currently going on -- and ATM owners are upping their surcharges to compensate for MC's further decreasing interchange fees.

Interesting game. Card issuers are the ones ending up paying these fees to ATM owners (and why many issuers charge you, the ATM card holder, a fee for every ATM pull). Now, if the networks can lower what issuers have to pay out to ATM owners, the one with the lowest number has an advantage in having his logo attached to the financial institution's plastic.

Also interestingly, MC allows (encourages?) Dynamic Currency Conversion (DCC) for ATM transactions with its plastic -- while Visa doesn't allow DCC with ATM transactions (except for cards issued in EURO countries -- go figure??).

So far in Thailand, only the Bank of Ayudhya (at least from what I've seen) has DCC with their ATM pulls, using a MC logoed card. I bet MC would love to completely do away with all ATM interchange fees (as would their financial institution (FI) customers), leaving the ATM owner to make money solely through surcharges and/or DCC. It wouldn't cost MC any lost revenue (they'll still get the 1% foreign transaction fee -- and that's 1% of the higher amount you're paying by getting screwed by DCC) -- and, of course, the FI's would certainly love not paying any more interchange fees.

So, will we begin to see more ATM machines offering the DCC option? If so, the new 180 baht fee may make many have a knee jerk reaction, choosing DCC over paying a 180 baht fee (no flat fee with DCC by the ATM owner). However, the DCC screw job factor, i.e. the less advantageous FX rate, is around 4-6% -- so say 6% -- so any pull more than 3000 baht will cost more than the flat 180 baht fee (but less, if under 3000 baht). Thus, an interesting situation where DCC would actually be advantageous to the cardholder, i.e., with a low number baht pull. But, I bet most farangs with foreign plastic make pulls of greater than 3000 baht (well, maybe not backpackers....).

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

A good reminder here to keep a close eye on your credit cards for unauthorized charges, and ESPECIALLY the Thai bank issued ones where you'll have little or no consumer protection in the event of fraud.

Seems a gang in neighboring Vietnam was running a kind of Amazon or Ebay site for selling stolen credit card data... 16,000 registered users who could log on and buy the stolen credit card info, according to the police announcement below made jointly by Vietnam, the UK and the U.S.

Eleven arrests as global investigation dismantles criminal web forum

5 June 2013

One of the world’s largest web forums devoted to the trade in stolen credit card data has been disabled by an international law enforcement operation led by the Vietnamese High-Tech Crime Unit (HTCU) and the Criminal Investigation Division (CID) of Ministry of Public Security of Vietnam (MPSVN), SOCA, the Metropolitan Police Central e-Crime Unit and the FBI.

Simultaneously, CID and HTCU officers in Vietnam arrested eight members of the organised crime group behind the website, and three further arrests of significant forum users were made in the UK.

The website, which used the name “mattfeuter” had facilitated more than $200m-worth of card fraud worldwide through ‘hacking’ of commercial entities to harvest and then sell data relating to 1.1 million credit cards. The site had approximately 16,000 members, who could gain access via a secure login and specify the quantity and type of credit card data they wanted, with discounts offered for bulk purchases. The site also had a facility for users to check that the card information they were buying was usable.

MORE:

Edited June 14, 2013 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Pib]

but their rate for foreign MasterCard logo cards has recently increased to 180 baht per withdrawal... no explanation given.

Sounds like MC is leading the race to the bottom for lower "reverse interchange" fees paid to ATM machine owners.

http://www.digitaltransactions.net/news/story/3952

Several years ago (about the time we saw the 150 baht fee implemented) there was an article about MC's declining payments to ATM owners in contrast to Visa (although both were lowering these rates). Good bet that this is what's currently going on -- and ATM owners are upping their surcharges to compensate for MC's further decreasing interchange fees.

Interesting game. Card issuers are the ones ending up paying these fees to ATM owners (and why many issuers charge you, the ATM card holder, a fee for every ATM pull). Now, if the networks can lower what issuers have to pay out to ATM owners, the one with the lowest number has an advantage in having his logo attached to the financial institution's plastic.

Also interestingly, MC allows (encourages?) Dynamic Currency Conversion (DCC) for ATM transactions with its plastic -- while Visa doesn't allow DCC with ATM transactions (except for cards issued in EURO countries -- go figure??).

So far in Thailand, only the Bank of Ayudhya (at least from what I've seen) has DCC with their ATM pulls, using a MC logoed card. I bet MC would love to completely do away with all ATM interchange fees (as would their financial institution (FI) customers), leaving the ATM owner to make money solely through surcharges and/or DCC. It wouldn't cost MC any lost revenue (they'll still get the 1% foreign transaction fee -- and that's 1% of the higher amount you're paying by getting screwed by DCC) -- and, of course, the FI's would certainly love not paying any more interchange fees.

So, will we begin to see more ATM machines offering the DCC option? If so, the new 180 baht fee may make many have a knee jerk reaction, choosing DCC over paying a 180 baht fee (no flat fee with DCC by the ATM owner). However, the DCC screw job factor, i.e. the less advantageous FX rate, is around 4-6% -- so say 6% -- so any pull more than 3000 baht will cost more than the flat 180 baht fee (but less, if under 3000 baht). Thus, an interesting situation where DCC would actually be advantageous to the cardholder, i.e., with a low number baht pull. But, I bet most farangs with foreign plastic make pulls of greater than 3000 baht (well, maybe not backpackers....).

Regarding MC fees, today in an email a person was asking me for some info on foreign transaction fees said his bank had told him they do not charge any additional fees but MasterCard may charge a 0.2% fee. That zero point two percent (0.2 not 2.0) statement struck me. Now apparently the bank was picking up the typical 1% fee MC/Visa normally charge and not adding on any fee, but not a separate 0.2% fee (or a cost equivalent to a direct fee) was not covered. I thought to myself that this 0.2% is real close to how the MC exchange rate is almost always approx. 0.2% lower than the Visa exchange rate...and that is probably what the bank meant in there statement. It wouldn't show up as an individual/separate charge but shows up via a lower exchange rate.

When using my CapOne MasterCard (the one that pays 2%/1% cash back) I've noticed the exchange rate is always "approx." 0.2% lower than the Visa rate. And just before writing this post I checked the MC exchange rate...it was 30.77/USD...the Visa exchange rate was 30.87 or approx. 0.3% higher than the MC rate...and the Thai bank average TT/ATM rate was 30.36. Appears the baht has gained significantly strength since yesterday with the Bank of Thailand intervening in the FX market to support the baht. Since the Visa rate is still at 30.87 for today it will probably drop by tomorrow/for the next few days...seems the Visa/MC exchange rates usually lag local bank rates by around a day. So today I'm going to go visit my friendly AEON ATM, slide both of my no foreign transaction fee debit cards into its slot to withdraw 60,000 baht between the two card with absolutely no fees along the way, and then walk around the corner in the mall and deposit that money into a Bangkok Bank Cash Deposit Machine to recharge my Bangkok Bank account for my Bangkok Bank debit card/ibanking use purposes. I will look at the pretty bank clerks while depositing the money in the cash deposit machine...this way I can still deposit the money fast while viewing the scenery without waiting in line to fill out a deposit slip, show my passport, etc...etc...etc.

[Pib]

but their rate for foreign MasterCard logo cards has recently increased to 180 baht per withdrawal... no explanation given.

Sounds like MC is leading the race to the bottom for lower "reverse interchange" fees paid to ATM machine owners.

http://www.digitaltransactions.net/news/story/3952

Several years ago (about the time we saw the 150 baht fee implemented) there was an article about MC's declining payments to ATM owners in contrast to Visa (although both were lowering these rates). Good bet that this is what's currently going on -- and ATM owners are upping their surcharges to compensate for MC's further decreasing interchange fees.

Interesting game. Card issuers are the ones ending up paying these fees to ATM owners (and why many issuers charge you, the ATM card holder, a fee for every ATM pull). Now, if the networks can lower what issuers have to pay out to ATM owners, the one with the lowest number has an advantage in having his logo attached to the financial institution's plastic.

Also interestingly, MC allows (encourages?) Dynamic Currency Conversion (DCC) for ATM transactions with its plastic -- while Visa doesn't allow DCC with ATM transactions (except for cards issued in EURO countries -- go figure??).

So far in Thailand, only the Bank of Ayudhya (at least from what I've seen) has DCC with their ATM pulls, using a MC logoed card. I bet MC would love to completely do away with all ATM interchange fees (as would their financial institution (FI) customers), leaving the ATM owner to make money solely through surcharges and/or DCC. It wouldn't cost MC any lost revenue (they'll still get the 1% foreign transaction fee -- and that's 1% of the higher amount you're paying by getting screwed by DCC) -- and, of course, the FI's would certainly love not paying any more interchange fees.

So, will we begin to see more ATM machines offering the DCC option? If so, the new 180 baht fee may make many have a knee jerk reaction, choosing DCC over paying a 180 baht fee (no flat fee with DCC by the ATM owner). However, the DCC screw job factor, i.e. the less advantageous FX rate, is around 4-6% -- so say 6% -- so any pull more than 3000 baht will cost more than the flat 180 baht fee (but less, if under 3000 baht). Thus, an interesting situation where DCC would actually be advantageous to the cardholder, i.e., with a low number baht pull. But, I bet most farangs with foreign plastic make pulls of greater than 3000 baht (well, maybe not backpackers....).

Regarding MC fees, today in an email a person was asking me for some info on foreign transaction fees said his bank had told him they do not charge any additional fees but MasterCard may charge a 0.2% fee. That zero point two percent (0.2 not 2.0) statement struck me. Now apparently the bank was picking up the typical 1% fee MC/Visa normally charge and not adding on any fee, but not a separate 0.2% fee (or a cost equivalent to a direct fee) was not covered. I thought to myself that this 0.2% is real close to how the MC exchange rate is almost always approx. 0.2% lower than the Visa exchange rate...and that is probably what the bank meant in there statement. It wouldn't show up as an individual/separate charge but shows up via a lower exchange rate.

When using my CapOne MasterCard (the one that pays 2%/1% cash back) I've noticed the exchange rate is always "approx." 0.2% lower than the Visa rate. And just before writing this post I checked the MC exchange rate...it was 30.77/USD...the Visa exchange rate was 30.87 or approx. 0.3% higher than the MC rate...and the Thai bank average TT/ATM rate was 30.36. Appears the baht has gained significantly strength since yesterday with the Bank of Thailand intervening in the FX market to support the baht. Since the Visa rate is still at 30.87 for today it will probably drop by tomorrow/for the next few days...seems the Visa/MC exchange rates usually lag local bank rates by around a day. So today I'm going to go visit my friendly AEON ATM, slide both of my no foreign transaction fee debit cards into its slot to withdraw 60,000 baht between the two card with absolutely no fees along the way, and then walk around the corner in the mall and deposit that money into a Bangkok Bank Cash Deposit Machine to recharge my Bangkok Bank account for my Bangkok Bank debit card/ibanking use purposes. I will look at the pretty bank clerks while depositing the money in the cash deposit machine...this way I can still deposit the money fast while viewing the scenery without waiting in line to fill out a deposit slip, show my passport, etc...etc...etc.

Durn...I was looking at the Visa and MC 13 Jun exchange rates...by the time I got to the AEON ATM and did my withdrawals the 14 Jun Visa rate went active and it was only 30.703/USD...MC is stll reflecting its 13 Jun rate but I expect its 14 Jun rate is lower once it appears on their exchange rate webpage. Wish I could have got to the ATM an hour or two earlier to get he 13 Jun rate....oh well. I checked both U.S. bank debit accounts to see what dollar charge hit for each 30K baht withdrawal and a charge of $977.11 hit both accounts matching the Visa exchange rate. But hey, the Visa 30.70 rate is still better than the average Thai bank TT Buying rate of 30.41 as of a few minutes ago...like I've mentioned in early posts "usually/most of the time" the Visa rate beats the Thai bank TT Buying rate and I paid absolutely zero fees along the way to immediately get the money...no waiting for a wire transfer to show up and seeing what exchange rate you get. And the Bangkok Bank cash deposit machine happily took the money I had just got out of the AEON ATM...machine are pretty easy to please...and the scenery was very good also. I just love my no foreign transaction fee Visa debit cards...makes getting money from the home country easy, fast, good exchange rate, and fee-free.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Pib, just make sure the wife doesn't catch you eyeing the BKK Bank girls....

Meanwhile, there was an interesting article in the NY Times the other day on evidence that some U.S. banks, a couple named and others not named, have been accused of helping criminals drain consumers' bank accounts via fraudulent debits or ACH transfers, and that the Justice Department in considering legal action against an additional number of different banks for, at a minimum, turning a blind eye to what they know is fraudlent financial activities. The article also notes that retirees and the elderly often are the victims in such abuses.

An excerpt of the full article:

The Times reviewed hundreds of filings in connection with civil lawsuits brought by federal authorities and a consumer law firm against Zions [bank based in Salt Lake City] and another regional bank that has drawn even more scrutiny, First Bank of Delaware. Last November, First Delaware reached a $15 million settlement with the Justice Department after the bank was accused of allowing merchants to illegally debit accounts more than two million times and siphon more than $100 million.

The documents, as well as interviews with state and federal officials, paint a troubling picture. They outline how banks profit handsomely by collecting fees while ignoring warnings of potential fraud and, in some instances, enabling dubious merchants to prey on consumers.

Anyone, young or old, can be targeted by unscrupulous marketers. But for several reasons — financial worries, age, loneliness — older people are particularly vulnerable to what is known as mass market fraud, deceptive pitches that arrive by telephone, mail and the Internet.

The problems at Zions and First Delaware, where the banks became financial conduits and quiet enablers for questionable businesses, extend well beyond those two institutions, federal authorities say. Indeed, banks across the country, from some of the largest to smaller regional players, help facilitate billions of dollars of fraud each year, according to interviews with consumer lawyers and state and federal prosecutors.

Officials at the Justice Department say they are taking aim at banks’ role in giving predatory lenders and fraudulent merchants access to the United States financial system. The department is considering civil and criminal actions against a number of banks for allowing tainted money to flow through branches, for failing to safeguard against suspicious merchants, and for originating transactions on behalf of businesses that they know make unauthorized withdrawals from customer accounts, according to people with direct knowledge of the matter.

“You can’t close your eyes anymore to the fraud that you are allowing to happen,” said Michael Blume, the director of the consumer protection branch at the Justice Department. “Banks are in business to make a profit. Unfortunately, this is a moneymaking operation at consumers’ expense.”

The full NYT article is here:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/11/business/fraud-against-seniors-often-is-routed-through-banks.html?_r=1&

[Pib]

I'm only vulnerable after a couple three Chang beers.

[JimGant]

But hey, the Visa 30.70 rate is still better than the average Thai bank TT Buying rate of 30.41 as of a few minutes ago..

........ particularly when the baht is rebounding. But, sometimes the FX shuffle pays-off. I ACHed $20k Tuesday night, and it logged-in Thursday morning with the 30.91 TT rate. With the $10 up-front fee, and the 500 baht back-end fee, the effective rate was 30.87. Some FX good luck -- this time (as the Bangkok Bank closing TT rate the next day was down to 30.38). But, who knows -- maybe next week will show that I reloaded my account too soon.......but I'm not smart enough to successfully play the FX game.....and just send money when needed.

As I said in another thread, my wife likes to use her Be1st ATM card, while I use the Schwab card, for cash. If the baht never fluctuated, then, yes, the Schwab card would be superior over ACHing chunks of money. However, with the dollar trending downward over the 10 years we've been in Thailand, I bet the two methods of getting cash are a wash. Nevertheless, any sign of the dollar trending upwards (I won't hold my breath), then, I guess, I'll have to dust off the wife's Schwab card.

[Mike45]

but their rate for foreign MasterCard logo cards has recently increased to 180 baht per withdrawal... no explanation given.

Sounds like MC is leading the race to the bottom for lower "reverse interchange" fees paid to ATM machine owners.

http://www.digitaltransactions.net/news/story/3952

Several years ago (about the time we saw the 150 baht fee implemented) there was an article about MC's declining payments to ATM owners in contrast to Visa (although both were lowering these rates). Good bet that this is what's currently going on -- and ATM owners are upping their surcharges to compensate for MC's further decreasing interchange fees.

Interesting game. Card issuers are the ones ending up paying these fees to ATM owners (and why many issuers charge you, the ATM card holder, a fee for every ATM pull). Now, if the networks can lower what issuers have to pay out to ATM owners, the one with the lowest number has an advantage in having his logo attached to the financial institution's plastic.

Also interestingly, MC allows (encourages?) Dynamic Currency Conversion (DCC) for ATM transactions with its plastic -- while Visa doesn't allow DCC with ATM transactions (except for cards issued in EURO countries -- go figure??).

So far in Thailand, only the Bank of Ayudhya (at least from what I've seen) has DCC with their ATM pulls, using a MC logoed card. I bet MC would love to completely do away with all ATM interchange fees (as would their financial institution (FI) customers), leaving the ATM owner to make money solely through surcharges and/or DCC. It wouldn't cost MC any lost revenue (they'll still get the 1% foreign transaction fee -- and that's 1% of the higher amount you're paying by getting screwed by DCC) -- and, of course, the FI's would certainly love not paying any more interchange fees.

So, will we begin to see more ATM machines offering the DCC option? If so, the new 180 baht fee may make many have a knee jerk reaction, choosing DCC over paying a 180 baht fee (no flat fee with DCC by the ATM owner). However, the DCC screw job factor, i.e. the less advantageous FX rate, is around 4-6% -- so say 6% -- so any pull more than 3000 baht will cost more than the flat 180 baht fee (but less, if under 3000 baht). Thus, an interesting situation where DCC would actually be advantageous to the cardholder, i.e., with a low number baht pull. But, I bet most farangs with foreign plastic make pulls of greater than 3000 baht (well, maybe not backpackers....).

Regarding MC fees, today in an email a person was asking me for some info on foreign transaction fees said his bank had told him they do not charge any additional fees but MasterCard may charge a 0.2% fee. That zero point two percent (0.2 not 2.0) statement struck me. Now apparently the bank was picking up the typical 1% fee MC/Visa normally charge and not adding on any fee, but not a separate 0.2% fee (or a cost equivalent to a direct fee) was not covered. I thought to myself that this 0.2% is real close to how the MC exchange rate is almost always approx. 0.2% lower than the Visa exchange rate...and that is probably what the bank meant in there statement. It wouldn't show up as an individual/separate charge but shows up via a lower exchange rate.

When using my CapOne MasterCard (the one that pays 2%/1% cash back) I've noticed the exchange rate is always "approx." 0.2% lower than the Visa rate. And just before writing this post I checked the MC exchange rate...it was 30.77/USD...the Visa exchange rate was 30.87 or approx. 0.3% higher than the MC rate...and the Thai bank average TT/ATM rate was 30.36. Appears the baht has gained significantly strength since yesterday with the Bank of Thailand intervening in the FX market to support the baht. Since the Visa rate is still at 30.87 for today it will probably drop by tomorrow/for the next few days...seems the Visa/MC exchange rates usually lag local bank rates by around a day. So today I'm going to go visit my friendly AEON ATM, slide both of my no foreign transaction fee debit cards into its slot to withdraw 60,000 baht between the two card with absolutely no fees along the way, and then walk around the corner in the mall and deposit that money into a Bangkok Bank Cash Deposit Machine to recharge my Bangkok Bank account for my Bangkok Bank debit card/ibanking use purposes. I will look at the pretty bank clerks while depositing the money in the cash deposit machine...this way I can still deposit the money fast while viewing the scenery without waiting in line to fill out a deposit slip, show my passport, etc...etc...etc.

I thought I had understood about your Capital One foreign transaction free cards until this post. Your actually talking about debit cards/ ATM cards that allow you to withdraw cash. I had thought you were referring to the credit card which I have already.

I just looked on line at the capital one site and I would have to open a checking account to get a debit MasterCard with capital one 360????

Is this the product you are using and how do you get the visa debit card?

[vagabond48]

WARNING FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO USE SCHWAB DEBIT CARDS.

Last week, I received a real shocker from Schwab.

They abruptly closed my 6 years old account.

They refused to give me a reason.

I suspect they felt that I longer lived in the US even though I have given them a US address.

I have only used their debit cards to withdraw money from various overseas countries.

About 2 months ago, I for the 1st time did bank teller counter withdrawals at my Thai bank. I one per month. When I requested the 3rdone last week, it was denied.

To get larger sums of money, it had to be approved by their Visa risk management team. I guess I may have woken up that department in reviewing my account and perhaps they concluded that I did not live in the US. There was $21K in the account and I had to make several calls to insist that the funds be electronically transferred out rather than a check being mailed.

I really will miss their DCs.

I still have the Fidelity DC which currently has the same benefits as Schwab except that I can only withdraw $500/daily and they do not allow a temporary ATM withdrawal increase something I will sorely miss. The Fidelity reps as usually continue to advise that there is a 1% foreign currency exchange rate fee which in reality is still being waived.

I did attempt to get the State Farm debit card but was declined. I would need to show them proof that I have an active US address.

Any helpful suggestions in getting the State Farm card would be helpful.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

I thought I had understood about your Capital One foreign transaction free cards until this post. Your actually talking about debit cards/ ATM cards that allow you to withdraw cash. I had thought you were referring to the credit card which I have already.

I just looked on line at the capital one site and I would have to open a checking account to get a debit MasterCard with capital one 360????

Is this the product you are using and how do you get the visa debit card?

Ever since Capital One acquired the US operations of ING Direct, it appears they've changed some things. What used to be ING Direct has now been rebranded as Capital One 360.

I'm pretty sure Capital One used to offer VISA logo debit cards with some checking accounts, as well as regular ATM-only cards with a Cirrus logo for their money market accounts.

I believe the kind of accounts you can access via Capital One online still depends on what zip code you enter for your residence. If you enter a zip code for an area where they don't have branches, I believe you'll just get the Capital One 360 offerings.

But if you enter a zip code for an area where they do have physical bank branches, you'll get a broader arrange of accounts that apparently can also be opened online. For example, when I pick a zip code in Texas where Cap One has branches, I see checking options for Rewards Checking, Premier Rewards Checking and High Yield Free Checking, in addition to their 360 checking.

Unfortunately, all of those checking accounts now appear to come with MC logo cards, according to their website. I didn't see a single VISA logo debit card offered.

But when I enter a zip code for an area in California where they don't have physical branches, I get automatically referred to Capital One 360, and they seem to only have MC logo debit cards for their 360 checking accounts opened thru that route.

Re that MC logo debit card, it has no foreign currency fees from Cap One, but the MC exchange rate will be a bit lower than a comparable VISA debit card.

Other particulars:

• 360 Checking Card ATM withdrawal: $1,000 per day
• 360 Checking Card purchases using your PIN: $5,000 per day
• 360 Checking Card purchases not using your PIN: $5,000 per day

https://home.capitalone360.com/online-checking-account

However, I was surprised by one thing: When I looked at the details of Cap One's Rewards Checking and Premier Rewards Checking account, I was really surprised to see that Cap One has added foreign currency fees for ATM withdrawals from those two accounts -- perhaps to offset the rewards features. That's strange, because Capital One for many years has generally avoided FCFs for their debit and credit cards. I couldn't tell/see whether they also have added FCF's for debit card purchases.

Here's the details of the charges for those two accounts (see the bottom of each image) -- $2 fee plus 3% for foreign country ATM withdrawals:

So those two certainly would be accounts to avoid, regardless.

[Pib]

but their rate for foreign MasterCard logo cards has recently increased to 180 baht per withdrawal... no explanation given.

Sounds like MC is leading the race to the bottom for lower "reverse interchange" fees paid to ATM machine owners.

http://www.digitaltransactions.net/news/story/3952

Several years ago (about the time we saw the 150 baht fee implemented) there was an article about MC's declining payments to ATM owners in contrast to Visa (although both were lowering these rates). Good bet that this is what's currently going on -- and ATM owners are upping their surcharges to compensate for MC's further decreasing interchange fees.

Interesting game. Card issuers are the ones ending up paying these fees to ATM owners (and why many issuers charge you, the ATM card holder, a fee for every ATM pull). Now, if the networks can lower what issuers have to pay out to ATM owners, the one with the lowest number has an advantage in having his logo attached to the financial institution's plastic.

Also interestingly, MC allows (encourages?) Dynamic Currency Conversion (DCC) for ATM transactions with its plastic -- while Visa doesn't allow DCC with ATM transactions (except for cards issued in EURO countries -- go figure??).

So far in Thailand, only the Bank of Ayudhya (at least from what I've seen) has DCC with their ATM pulls, using a MC logoed card. I bet MC would love to completely do away with all ATM interchange fees (as would their financial institution (FI) customers), leaving the ATM owner to make money solely through surcharges and/or DCC. It wouldn't cost MC any lost revenue (they'll still get the 1% foreign transaction fee -- and that's 1% of the higher amount you're paying by getting screwed by DCC) -- and, of course, the FI's would certainly love not paying any more interchange fees.

So, will we begin to see more ATM machines offering the DCC option? If so, the new 180 baht fee may make many have a knee jerk reaction, choosing DCC over paying a 180 baht fee (no flat fee with DCC by the ATM owner). However, the DCC screw job factor, i.e. the less advantageous FX rate, is around 4-6% -- so say 6% -- so any pull more than 3000 baht will cost more than the flat 180 baht fee (but less, if under 3000 baht). Thus, an interesting situation where DCC would actually be advantageous to the cardholder, i.e., with a low number baht pull. But, I bet most farangs with foreign plastic make pulls of greater than 3000 baht (well, maybe not backpackers....).

Regarding MC fees, today in an email a person was asking me for some info on foreign transaction fees said his bank had told him they do not charge any additional fees but MasterCard may charge a 0.2% fee. That zero point two percent (0.2 not 2.0) statement struck me. Now apparently the bank was picking up the typical 1% fee MC/Visa normally charge and not adding on any fee, but not a separate 0.2% fee (or a cost equivalent to a direct fee) was not covered. I thought to myself that this 0.2% is real close to how the MC exchange rate is almost always approx. 0.2% lower than the Visa exchange rate...and that is probably what the bank meant in there statement. It wouldn't show up as an individual/separate charge but shows up via a lower exchange rate.

When using my CapOne MasterCard (the one that pays 2%/1% cash back) I've noticed the exchange rate is always "approx." 0.2% lower than the Visa rate. And just before writing this post I checked the MC exchange rate...it was 30.77/USD...the Visa exchange rate was 30.87 or approx. 0.3% higher than the MC rate...and the Thai bank average TT/ATM rate was 30.36. Appears the baht has gained significantly strength since yesterday with the Bank of Thailand intervening in the FX market to support the baht. Since the Visa rate is still at 30.87 for today it will probably drop by tomorrow/for the next few days...seems the Visa/MC exchange rates usually lag local bank rates by around a day. So today I'm going to go visit my friendly AEON ATM, slide both of my no foreign transaction fee debit cards into its slot to withdraw 60,000 baht between the two card with absolutely no fees along the way, and then walk around the corner in the mall and deposit that money into a Bangkok Bank Cash Deposit Machine to recharge my Bangkok Bank account for my Bangkok Bank debit card/ibanking use purposes. I will look at the pretty bank clerks while depositing the money in the cash deposit machine...this way I can still deposit the money fast while viewing the scenery without waiting in line to fill out a deposit slip, show my passport, etc...etc...etc.

I thought I had understood about your Capital One foreign transaction free cards until this post. Your actually talking about debit cards/ ATM cards that allow you to withdraw cash. I had thought you were referring to the credit card which I have already.

I just looked on line at the capital one site and I would have to open a checking account to get a debit MasterCard with capital one 360????

Is this the product you are using and how do you get the visa debit card?

In my first paragraph I was taking a CapOne/ING MasterCard "debit" card that someone had and customer service told that person that they didn't add an foreign transaction fees but MasterCard may add a 0.2% fee. That's when I started talking about maybe that small fee explains why MasterCard's exchange rate is almost always approx. 0.2% lower than Visa. Yes, a person would need to open a bank account to get the debit card.

Then is the second paragraph I started talking about my CapOne MasterCard "credit" card and how its exchange rate is almost always approx. 0.2% lower than Visa's rate.

So, I was talking CapOne debit "and" credit cards which generally have not had a foreign transaction fee but maybe they are now starting to let some creep in on some cards, especially if they carry the MasterCard logo.

And where I mentioned no foreign transaction fee Visa debit cards in the second paragraph also, that is debt cards I have from other banks--not CapOne.

Edited June 15, 2013 by Pib

[Pib]

I thought I had understood about your Capital One foreign transaction free cards until this post. Your actually talking about debit cards/ ATM cards that allow you to withdraw cash. I had thought you were referring to the credit card which I have already.

I just looked on line at the capital one site and I would have to open a checking account to get a debit MasterCard with capital one 360????

Is this the product you are using and how do you get the visa debit card?

Ever since Capital One acquired the US operations of ING Direct, it appears they've changed some things. What used to be ING Direct has now been rebranded as Capital One 360.

I'm pretty sure Capital One used to offer VISA logo debit cards with some checking accounts, as well as regular ATM-only cards with a Cirrus logo for their money market accounts.

I believe the kind of accounts you can access via Capital One online still depends on what zip code you enter for your residence. If you enter a zip code for an area where they don't have branches, I believe you'll just get the Capital One 360 offerings.

But if you enter a zip code for an area where they do have physical bank branches, you'll get a broader arrange of accounts that apparently can also be opened online. For example, when I pick a zip code in Texas where Cap One has branches, I see checking options for Rewards Checking, Premier Rewards Checking and High Yield Free Checking, in addition to their 360 checking.

Unfortunately, all of those checking accounts now appear to come with MC logo cards, according to their website. I didn't see a single VISA logo debit card offered.

But when I enter a zip code for an area in California where they don't have physical branches, I get automatically referred to Capital One 360, and they seem to only have MC logo debit cards for their 360 checking accounts opened thru that route.

Re that MC logo debit card, it has no foreign currency fees from Cap One, but the MC exchange rate will be a bit lower than a comparable VISA debit card.

Other particulars:

• 360 Checking Card ATM withdrawal: $1,000 per day
• 360 Checking Card purchases using your PIN: $5,000 per day
• 360 Checking Card purchases not using your PIN: $5,000 per day

https://home.capitalone360.com/online-checking-account

However, I was surprised by one thing: When I looked at the details of Cap One's Rewards Checking and Premier Rewards Checking account, I was really surprised to see that Cap One has added foreign currency fees for ATM withdrawals from those two accounts -- perhaps to offset the rewards features. That's strange, because Capital One for many years has generally avoided FCFs for their debit and credit cards. I couldn't tell/see whether they also have added FCF's for debit card purchases.

Here's the details of the charges for those two accounts (see the bottom of each image) -- $2 fee plus 3% for foreign country ATM withdrawals:

Rewards Checking.jpg

Premier Rewards.jpg

So those two certainly would be accounts to avoid, regardless.

I wonder if those cards now with foreign transaction fees were really ING cards which carried the fee before and the card just got rebranded to the new CapOne 360 name when CapOne bought ING. I haven't really read up too much about the Cap One and ING merger since I didn't have any bank account with CapOne or ING...just a couple of CapOne credit cards...one MasterCard and one Visa card. And since the bank unit and credit card unit are two separate business units within CapOne hopefully their fee polices will remain somewhat separated....of course, Mr CapOne could wake up one morning and decree fees on all cards, be them debit or credit cards regardless of MasterCard or Visa logo...that why I like to have backup cards with other companies in case of policy changes.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Cap One has their fingers in a lot of credit card pies...

At some point, they took over what used to be the GM Card portfolio from HSBC...

And just recently, I saw that Cap One is the card company behind the branded Sony credit card.

In terms of credit cards, I think Cap One and Pentagon Federal Credit Union probably have the largest portfolios of no FCF credit cards that I'm aware of it in the U.S.

[JimGant]

Regarding MC fees, today in an email a person was asking me for some info on foreign transaction fees said his bank had told him they do not charge any additional fees but MasterCard may charge a 0.2% fee. That zero point two percent (0.2 not 2.0) statement struck me. Now apparently the bank was picking up the typical 1% fee MC/Visa normally charge and not adding on any fee, but not a separate 0.2% fee (or a cost equivalent to a direct fee) was not covered. I thought to myself that this 0.2% is real close to how the MC exchange rate is almost always approx. 0.2% lower than the Visa exchange rate...and that is probably what the bank meant in there statement. It wouldn't show up as an individual/separate charge but shows up via a lower exchange rate.

Pib,

I've seen MC divide up their 1% fee into 0.8 and 0.2 percentages. Here, from an Oz bank site, is the explanation.

1. MasterCard ® International Incorporated charges us 0.8% of the transaction amount where a transaction is made using your MasterCard ® and the merchant or financial institution accepting the card is located outside of Australia. We pass this amount on to our customers.

2. MasterCard ® International Incorporated charges us 0.2% of the transaction amount for converting foreign currency transactions made using a MasterCard ® into Australian dollars. We pass this amount on to our customers.

Sounds like, if you had a DCC transaction, the total MC fee would only be 0.8%, since under DCC, MC is NOT doing the conversion, which would cost an additional 0.2%. Dunno, since I avoid DCC transactions, as well as MC transactions, at least lately. Maybe I'll have to make a test run........

But, several years ago, when I did a Visa vs. MC credit card transaction comparison, my USAA statements clearly showed the 1% International Service Assessment (Visa's language for foreign related fees) for both my MC and Visa credit cards. And it was this data that clearly showed -- on average -- that there was a 16 satang differential, with Visa averaging 8 satang better than the buying TT rate, and MC averaging 8 satang less. Now, it's possible MC is advertising to its issuer institutions that they -- MC -- build an additional 0.2% spread (vs. Visa) between what the cardholder pays -- and what is paid for the baht to reimburse the merchant -- as such a greater spread over Visa means more gravy to be shared with the issuer.

Just some more competition between Visa and MC -- akin to the reverse interchange on ATM transactions, discussed above.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Here's a summary of what ING announced last Nov re their policy change to stop charging foreign POS purchase fees for their accounts, prior to formally being absorbed by Cap One and becoming Cap One 360.

However, this article from November 2012 is silent on the companion issue of foreign fees for ATM withdrawals. And as I noted above, Cap One 360 certainly has at least several accounts (Rewards Checking and Premier Rewards checking) now that charge fees for foreign ATM withdrawals.

ING Direct said foreign exchange fees will be waived on debit-card purchases made internationally, starting Nov. 1.

Previously, the online bank charged a 2% foreign exchange fee for the conversion of currency plus a 1% fee charged by MasterCard/Visa for a total foreign transaction fee of 3%.

“The change is consistent with Capital One’s longstanding policy (as of Nov. 1, our legal entities are officially merged),” said Laura DiLello, an ING Direct spokesperson.

http://www.mybanktracker.com/news/streams/ing-direct-waives-foreign-transaction-fees/

Meanwhile, came across another summary website that attempts to give a comprehensive overview of what banks are charging (or not charging) in the way of foreign currency fees for both debit and credit cards... I think some of the detail is not up to date...but it's a pretty good overview, and the red (BAD) and green (GOOD) color coding makes it easy to see which ones to look at or avoid.

http://money.wikia.com/wiki/Foreign_Exchange_fees_on_bank_cards_and_credit_cards

The other similar site that we've often discussed and linked to is here:

http://www.flyerguide.com/wiki/index.php/Credit/Debit/ATM_Cards_and_Foreign_Exchange

Edited June 16, 2013 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

I wonder if those cards now with foreign transaction fees were really ING cards which carried the fee before and the card just got rebranded to the new CapOne 360 name when CapOne bought ING.

I don't think that was the case, based on my reading up on the subject...

It looks like Cap One did this on their own, launching those higher fee checking accounts in areas where they have physical bank branch locations, and then actually migrating customers who had been free checking account holders into their new higher fee accounts, back in mid 2012. It seems those higher fee accounts were added by Cap One in 2011.

See below:

“In our retail branch footprint, we’re migrating our customer accounts to our new checking products that we introduced last year: High Yield Free Checking, Premier Rewards Checking and Rewards Checking,” said Amanda Landers, a Capital One spokesperson, in an email.

To take place from May 22 to June 5, the conversion includes grandfathered free checking accounts, but it will not affect the free checking account that is offered by Capital One’s direct banking unit, which serves areas where there are no Capital One branches.

http://www.mybanktracker.com/news/2012/04/23/capital-one-convert-customer-checking-accounts/

http://www.depositaccounts.com/blog/2012/04/capital-one-moving-customers-out-of-free-checking-accounts.html

So the lesson to take from this is... Cap One cards are still MOSTLY no foreign currency fee cards, both on the credit and checking account ends of things... But NOT ALL of their checking accounts, especially if your address is in an area where Cap One has physical branches, are foreign currency fee free any longer.

[Pib]

Regarding MC fees, today in an email a person was asking me for some info on foreign transaction fees said his bank had told him they do not charge any additional fees but MasterCard may charge a 0.2% fee. That zero point two percent (0.2 not 2.0) statement struck me. Now apparently the bank was picking up the typical 1% fee MC/Visa normally charge and not adding on any fee, but not a separate 0.2% fee (or a cost equivalent to a direct fee) was not covered. I thought to myself that this 0.2% is real close to how the MC exchange rate is almost always approx. 0.2% lower than the Visa exchange rate...and that is probably what the bank meant in there statement. It wouldn't show up as an individual/separate charge but shows up via a lower exchange rate.

Pib,

I've seen MC divide up their 1% fee into 0.8 and 0.2 percentages. Here, from an Oz bank site, is the explanation.

1. MasterCard ® International Incorporated charges us 0.8% of the transaction amount where a transaction is made using your MasterCard ® and the merchant or financial institution accepting the card is located outside of Australia. We pass this amount on to our customers.

2. MasterCard ® International Incorporated charges us 0.2% of the transaction amount for converting foreign currency transactions made using a MasterCard ® into Australian dollars. We pass this amount on to our customers.

Sounds like, if you had a DCC transaction, the total MC fee would only be 0.8%, since under DCC, MC is NOT doing the conversion, which would cost an additional 0.2%. Dunno, since I avoid DCC transactions, as well as MC transactions, at least lately. Maybe I'll have to make a test run........

But, several years ago, when I did a Visa vs. MC credit card transaction comparison, my USAA statements clearly showed the 1% International Service Assessment (Visa's language for foreign related fees) for both my MC and Visa credit cards. And it was this data that clearly showed -- on average -- that there was a 16 satang differential, with Visa averaging 8 satang better than the buying TT rate, and MC averaging 8 satang less. Now, it's possible MC is advertising to its issuer institutions that they -- MC -- build an additional 0.2% spread (vs. Visa) between what the cardholder pays -- and what is paid for the baht to reimburse the merchant -- as such a greater spread over Visa means more gravy to be shared with the issuer.

Just some more competition between Visa and MC -- akin to the reverse interchange on ATM transactions, discussed above.

Yea, it sure looks like MC charges you a foreign transaction fee whether they did the conversion or didn't do the conversion. And this fee is occurring even before it hits the card issuing bank which may or may not absorb the MasterCard/Visa fees. Now many banks like Bank of America could care less if the foreign transaction involves currency conversion, what currency the transaction/withdrawal occurred in, etc.; their only concern is was a foreign transaction which means the bank's foreign transaction fee(a) gets applied...to quote from the BOA web site:

The exact fee

It's difficult to publish the exact fee because there are various factors involved. International transaction fees are calculated as a percentage of the total transaction amount, which takes into account the amount of the transaction plus the currency conversion rate in effect on the processing date. We recommend that you call the number on the back of your business card to discuss these issues before you travel or before you make an online or phone purchase from a merchant in another country.

*You should also be aware that even if a transaction is in U.S. dollars, this fee applies if the transaction is made or processed outside the U.S.

So even when doing a DCC where you are going to get around a 2-4% lower exchange rate (an indirect fee), then BOA heaps on its foreign transaction fee of 3%...end result that transaction just cost you 5-7% more due to bank/merchant fees....makes them smile to show their gold teeth.

And even in a international funds transfer where the sender messed up and allowed the sending bank to convert to baht before sending (make a nice little profit for that bank probably in the 2-3% ballpark), when it arrives the Thai bank they are still going to charge their "currency receipt/conversion fee" in the ball park of 0.25% (Bt200 min, Bt500 max) because they charge the fee just to "receive" the funds in any currency...now they would have really liked to have been able to also convert the funds because they could have made a little more indirectly through using TT Buying Rate exchange rate, but the home country sending bank has already grabbed that fee revenue option from them.

Banks and credit card companies can get you with fees on both the starting and endings ends.

Edited June 16, 2013 by Pib

[Pib]

Since a lot of folks might not read through a whole thread or jump to the end of thread when it gets large, I just wanted to mention that this FlyerGuide webpage on Credit/Debit/ATM Cards and Foreign Exchange provides a list of a lot of primarily U.S. banks/credit union cards and their associated foreign transaction fees. The Flyerguide website has been mentioned in this thread and others.

It's a good starting point when thinking about getting another U.S. debit/credit card and you want one with no foreign transaction fee...or at least a low foreign transaction fee. Please note that some financial institutions may apply a different foreign transaction fee depending on whether it was an ATM or a Point of Sale transaction.

[Langsuan Man]

I am still confused about which ATM / Debit card can still be used at AEON ATM's since they are the only way to obtain cash without paying the 150-180THB Thai Bankers Association foreign ATM fee

I was perfectly happy with E*trade and their $1000 limit at AEON until E*trad Bank started charging the 1% currency conversion fee (as did USAA Bank)

I then opened a Capital One Bank account because they didn't charge the 1% currency conversion fee at AEON but then they switched networks so my card would not longer work at AEON. Am very happy with Cap Ones Rewards Credit Card with their no currency conversion fee and points but that doesn't solve the AEON cash restriction

Was going to open a Schwab account but vagabond48's post above has me worried that they (Schwab) are moving in the direction of tightening up their ATM / Debit card issuance

Which seems to me that the only US Bank ATM/ Debit card that can be used at AEON is the one issued by State Farm Bank

Is this correct or is there another US Bank that is accepted by AEON and has no currency conversion fee ?

[Pib]

I am still confused about which ATM / Debit card can still be used at AEON ATM's since they are the only way to obtain cash without paying the 150-180THB Thai Bankers Association foreign ATM fee

I was perfectly happy with E*trade and their $1000 limit at AEON until E*trad Bank started charging the 1% currency conversion fee (as did USAA Bank)

I then opened a Capital One Bank account because they didn't charge the 1% currency conversion fee at AEON but then they switched networks so my card would not longer work at AEON. Am very happy with Cap Ones Rewards Credit Card with their no currency conversion fee and points but that doesn't solve the AEON cash restriction

Was going to open a Schwab account but vagabond48's post above has me worried that they (Schwab) are moving in the direction of tightening up their ATM / Debit card issuance

Which seems to me that the only US Bank ATM/ Debit card that can be used at AEON is the one issued by State Farm Bank

Is this correct or is there another US Bank that is accepted by AEON and has no currency conversion fee ?

There are other banks along with State Farm listed on the FlyerGuide webpage which show debit cards with no foreign transaction fee, but the qualification/membership requirements may be the roadblock depending on each individual. Would take review of the banks' websites for more details/the fine print.