Word To The Wise!

[chiangrai57020]

For all the 'farang' that have an interest in the postings to TV it would be advantages to learn one thing before moving to Thailand and spending your 'hard earned money' in Thailand.

A word to the wise! NO 'FOREIGNER' will have have his or her day in court. And as far as getting any sympathy from a Thai court - FORGET IT - It will never happen.

I recently read several case studies (copyright: Jeffrey Rice, Phd) involving land and property disbutes between 'Farang' and Thai co-owners. You would not believe the manipulations, falsifications of documents, false testimony, etc. etc. that goes on between the 'Thai people' and courts in these cases.

A 'foreigner' DOES NOT stand a chance in the Thai court system. I also have very serious doubts that ANY lease agreement, 2 or 30 years, with a 'Thai' would hold 'any water' if the Thai decided to take it to court. And, as to starting a business in the HOPES of owning land, DREAM on. You will be taking on a 'lot more Thai's' than a GF/Wife/etc. when it comes time for YOU to go to court to seek 'Justice'.

Again - For all those 'Farang' that are reading the postings to TV - If you remember nothing at all - Remember This - The day you arrive in Thailand YOUR assets (100%) will belong to your Thai GF/Wife/etc. No amount of legal documentation will protect anything 'You Think You Own'. In Thailand you own nothing (0%).

As I stated previously in other postings. If you are going to build that 'million' baht mansion on your Thai friends 'Owned' land, YOU have just 'kissed' your money GOODBYE.

Oh! But 'SHE' loves me, you say! Today maybe, Tomorrow Who Knows! JUST be prepared to Walk 'when' that time comes. And from what I have read and heard THAT TIME will come for a very large percentage of us.

I am not a lawyer, but I do have a capacity to read (both the written word and the unspoken 'or between the lines' words) and analyze what I read and hear.

[Jai Dee]

Wow... what a bitter post.

Having just scanned through your past posts on TV have you just lost it all?

[Heng]

Maybe you didn't take your shoes off before entering the court room? I think that's automatic relinquishment of assets under current custom.

[chiangrai57020]

Having re-read my previous posting, an explanation is in order.

I DO NOT like to see the 'farang' get scammed! Having lived in Thailand for 7 years, and, YES I do like living in Thailand and for the most part, a lot of the Thai people.

But in those 7 years I have personal knowledge of many, many 'farang' getting 'taken to the cleaners'.

During my long relationship and marriage to my previous wife I spent many, many 'millions of US dollars' on her behalf to 'try' and keep her happy! Result - divorce after 35 years (she found someone 'younger'). You see, it works both ways - girls seeking older men (perception of having money) and women seeking younger men(?) - not just Thai women.

Because so many of 'US' come here thinking that we have or will find 'paradise' in the arms of a Thai lady we sometimes forget that the Thai lady may have a completely different reason for seeking a 'farang' relationship. It is not too hard for any of us to understand the background of these Thai ladies - read the local English language newspapers, poor families, the perception that most, if not all Thai men are 'loose', feelings of being unwanted, etc.

There are many 'farang' that have that proverbial 'bundle of joy'. That 'bundle of joy' will always be 'Thai' and will be reared as a 'Thai'. Is that good or bad? You decide. And as much as I dislike saying it, in the event of a divorce from your spouse and you want to seek custody of that 'bundle of joy', no Thai court is going to allow it.

My concept of 'paradise' is simple - enjoy your life 'today' because 'tomorrow' may never come. I have many good experiences here in Thailand, have made many friends, both Thai and 'farang' and what I learned from them is this: Do Not worry about what tomorrow may bring because you may never see tomorrow.

Everyone of us are 'individualists' - we all see things in different lights. Enjoy life but do not be a 'sucker' and think that you are or want to be the 'nice' guy and end up getting the shaft!

Peace! And enjoy life. We only live once (although most Thai's will tell you differently).

[Jai Dee]

My concept of 'paradise' is simple - enjoy your life 'today' because 'tomorrow' may never come.  I have many good experiences here in Thailand, have made many friends, both Thai and 'farang' and what I learned from them is this:  Do Not worry about what tomorrow may bring because you may never see tomorrow. 

I think this is a good attitude... although it does pay to keep your eyes open and your wits about you.

We can all learn from other's as well as our own mistakes... reading about them here on ThaiVisa is one way to keep informed and be aware of the potential pitfalls.

[The_Moog]

During my long relationship and marriage to my previous wife I spent many, many 'millions of US dollars' on her behalf to 'try' and keep her happy! Result - divorce after 35 years (she found someone 'younger').

Thats the funniest thing i've heard all day ! Nice one, you pillock!

You've put a smile on my face

[Thetyim]

I agree with you Chiangrai57020.

Everyone should raed your posts and take heed but alas it usually falls on deaf ears.

I have lost two houses in LOS myself but still love it here and keep laughing .

[snoophound]

Hoary old chestnut

Whats interesting is the Burnt vs the Preburnt vs the No NEVER could happen to me?

So any real Thai legal advice on this site?????

During my long relationship and marriage to my previous wife I spent many, many 'millions of US dollars' on her behalf to 'try' and keep her happy! Result - divorce after 35 years (she found someone 'younger').

Thats the funniest thing i've heard all day ! Nice one, you pillock!

You've put a smile on my face

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[mpdkorat]

I agree with you Chiangrai57020.

Everyone should raed your posts and take heed but alas it usually falls on deaf ears.

I have lost two houses in LOS myself but still love it here and keep laughing .

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In my case a house a resort and several vehicles. I'm still having a ball. You hear that Thai woman are just out to rip you off in some cases thats true and you should be aware of that fact. In my case all my previous failed relationships were down to me. I'm just a big kid in a candy store. Sometimes I tell myself that I have grown up and all mature now; my friends tell me I still have a way to go. But I am doing my best not to loose anymore assets, but if I do I'm sure it will be my fault.

[chiangrai57020]

This is my final submission on the subject.

First, it is my understanding that a ‘forum’ is supposed to be ‘a source of information’. Not the only source. That is why there are ‘search engines’. The information I have provided was gathered from reading various sites on the ‘search engines’. Some of what I wrote is personal knowledge and opinion. The Thai Court ‘case studies’ I mentioned were extracted from ‘search engines’ - Not my opinion.

That said, it is my belief that the ‘more knowledge’ a person has the better is his or her ability to deal with ‘unfortunate circumstances’ that may arise.

Having read many of the postings on TV regarding the ownership of Land, and accomplishing some additional research into various subjects, I have learned that a ‘lot of the information’ provided is somewhat misleading. As an example: 30 + 30 Land Leases, establishing a business for purpose of purchasing Land, etc.

The Thai court ‘case studies’ indicate to me that we, the ‘farang’, have no legal rights in Thailand. Any ‘Lease’ that is drawn up is not worth the paper it is written on. OK! That said, all the lawyers in Thailand will be ‘on my case’! But, we cannot ignore the ‘facts’. There are good Thai lawyers, as the ‘case studies’ show, but they are at ‘the mercy of the court’. When a ‘farang’ is involved with any Thai, the Thai courts will favor the Thai in all cases even to the point of ‘doctoring documentation’ by the courts, local government, etc. The ‘case studies’ I mention are available on the internet BUT access is denied by (You no Who……….?). By doing a ‘search’ (gave you a clue previously) you will find them BUT you will need a ‘proxy server’ to download them - So much for ‘freedom of information - in Thailand’.

Reading the comments to this post I can see that I have ‘opened a can of worms’ and have some further explanation to do.

NO! I am not bitter. As a matter of fact I am happier today than I have been for a very, very long time. Hard to believe, you say!

Whether any of the information I have provided is of any value to anyone reading this post is for him or her to decide.

So, why the original posting? As some of you are aware, there is a site called ‘stickmanbangkok.com’ that have many, many reader submissions. I did not know of the site until I had been in Thailand for over 3 years. Some of the reader submissions are ‘eye openers’! And, as I have previously stated, I have personal knowledge of ‘foreigners’ that have come to Thailand and became very disillusioned and ‘gave away’ their hard earned cash believing they had found ‘their one true love’.

Some of us are financially well off and do not have a second thought about how or where our money is spent. There are many more ‘farang’ that have to be careful with the little money they do have. So, when I hear ‘stories’ about these ‘poorer’ farang getting ‘the shaft’ I start feeling sorry for them.

I do not hold any ill will toward the Thai girls that are ‘taking some farang to the cleaners’. All we have to do is look at their background. They are looking for a way out of their miserable life. They are taught by others in the same situation as to ‘the rules of the game’. In stating this I believe, that ‘we’ the farang that have lived in Thailand for a period of time owe it to the ‘newcomers’ to inform them about ‘the rules of the game’ and what to expect if they do not understand the rules. Like any ‘game’, you can ‘loose your shirt’.

Whether you that are reading this accept what I say is up to you. I have no ‘axe to grind’. Bottom line, I do not like to see anybody being taken advantage of - whether Thai or ‘farang’. Yes, the Thai girls have been taken advantage of their whole life and I feel sorry for them too.

[xbusman]

Another fine place for the first Rule

NEVER PUT MORE MONEY IN THAILAND THAN WHAT YOU ARE WILLING TO JUST WALK AWAY FROM

Perhaps we could pin it here, or better yet, make it a mandatory tattoo on arrival at Don Muang. The above is no joke, not funny, and I dont think any old asia hand would disagree with the above.

This is a third world country without any rule of law. Anyone who cannot figure this out in four weeks should not be playing outside the family home anyway.

[taxexile]

I recently read several case studies (copyright: Jeffrey Rice, Phd)

i have also read those case histories , and would be very afraid if i had to rely on the judicial system here for my rights or for some justice.

the website that posts those articles is usually blocked to thai isps due to the sesitive (honest) nature of the material ,but for those interested enough google

"adventures in thai justice" by jeffrey rice.

here is a sampler.

ADVENTURES IN THAI JUSTICE

PART TWO--CRIMEBUSTERS IN ACTION

by

Jeffrey Race

Copyright . 2003 by Jeffrey Race

This continues our series of case studies aiming

to clarify what might be done to restore

the Thai justice system to its former level of

international acceptance.

As before, identities are omitted.

What matters

is how fails a system on which the public

depends, what high officials do when they

learn of failures, and how this affects the perception

of Thai justice on the world stage.

As

previously noted, the writer is intimate with

the details of these events from his role in

preparing the documentation and in helping

conduct these cases on behalf of the foreign

victims.

The last article focussed on a civil matter; now

we look at a criminal case involving the public

prosecution service.

BACKGROUND

This case concerns a grand scheme to launder

property held in trust prior to a court judgment

dividing it between local and foreign coowners.

This type of laundering is apparently

quite common; what is remarkable here is

the lengths to which the principals were willing

to go to cover up their misdeeds and their

success in escaping the consequences.

The assets in question were ten rai of land

owned in common as part of a real-estate

development. Legislation and long practice

underlay the foreign party’s right in the land,

and a Supreme Court ruling confirmed this

right, giving the foreigner initial confidence in

the legal process by which he hoped to protect

his property and, ultimately, to repay foreign

loans he had contracted to make the

investment in Thailand. The problems

occurred only during the enforcement phase;

unfortunately they proved fatal. (Fortunately,

so far, only legally).

THE SCHEME T

he local co-owner holding the property in

trust planned to defeat justice by transferring

the ten rai to third parties prior to judgment,

using the proceeds to buy land in the names of

dummies unknown to the foreign victim. At

one point the local co-owner urgently needed

to transfer title in view of the foreigner’s

asserted legal claim to his share of the land

and impending court rulings.

The local co-owner succeeded completely in

this plan, except for a few loose ends which

later led to litigation. The aggrieved foreigner

obtained a copy of the transferred title deed

and petitioned the court to summon the

buyer.

Normally one rehearses testimony with a witness

so as to present the issues most clearly

and not waste the court’s time. However in

this case the foreign victim had only a name,

and no chance to meet the buyer beforehand.

Just as he feared, the buyer was a prominent

Bangkokian, furious at being summoned. In

the moments before the presiding judge

appeared, the foreign victim attempted to

placate her by saying that he had no issue

with her, wishing only that she recount the

facts as she knew them. Her mood improved

but the foreign victim remained anxious.

Lacking details the foreigner’s attorney was at

a disadvantage in questioning the hostile witness,

so he simply posed the broad question

how she had come to learn about the property.

She testified:

I know Defendant 1 because the Assistant

Prosecutor [from _____ province] told me that

Defendant 1 wanted to sell the contested land

because it was about to be seized [by the Court].

A Land buyer’s testimony implicating public prosecutor

This Assistant Prosecutor moonlighting as a

real estate broker turned out to have been a

close friend of the Thai co-owner; she had

learned about the contested property in the

course of official duties. The buyer’s testimony

showed that the Assistant Prosecutor well

knew the land offered for sale was already

under legal claim—prima facie evidence of

willing participation in a criminal case of

swindling and/or defrauding a creditor.

The foreign victim had already obtained an

injunction barring sale of the land. An official

of the provincial governor’s office informed

the foreign victim’s attorney that the named

Assistant Prosecutor had personally lobbied

to have the injunction revoked (now, the foreign

victim began to understand, so she could

market the land).

A STRANGE COINCIDENCE

At the same time a very strange set of events

began to puzzle the foreign victim, who had

filed a police report denouncing the laundering

of the co-owned assets. The police dutifully

investigated, found probable cause of a

criminal offense, and submitted the matter to

the Public Prosecutor for further action with

the court. However the Public Prosecutor did

nothing, refusing to provide the foreign victim

any explanation.

Suddenly it all became clear: the Assistant

Prosecutor mentioned above worked in the

very office to which the police had sent the

case file! As long as one of its own staff was a

witting go-between in a scheme to defraud a

foreigner, the office could hardly file a case

without exposing

the whole

matter and causing

a scandal.

THE FOREIGN VICTIM STRIKES A

BLOW FOR HONESTY

In April of 1998 the foreign victim requested

the Attorney General to investigate the role of

the Assistant Prosecutor whose duty it was to

uphold the law but who instead participated

in a scheme to launder his property. In the

same letter he requested investigation of suspected

prosecutorial misconduct viz. refusing

to prosecute a brazen crime for fear prosecution

would reveal a staff member’s role in

laundering contested assets.

The Attorney General moved quickly, inviting

the foreign victim to document the complaint

and deposing him for a total of six

hours over three days. After the exhausting

deposition the appointed investigator (a kind

ly senior prosecutor on the verge of retirement)

stated mournfully that he was sure the

foreign victim would receive satisfaction

because the case was so outrageous and the

documentation so complete. The foreign victim

was greatly encouraged.

ANOTHER AMAZING LETTER!

In February of 1999 the Attorney General

announced the conclusion of his investigation:

the buyer had denied the Assistant Prosecutor

had participated in the sale, so no action

would be taken. This startling letter added

that “the decision not to prosecute conformed

to the facts and the law”.

Since this conclusion directly contradicted the

buyer’s sworn testimony, the foreign victim

grew uneasy, so thought to contact again the

kindly senior investigator. Regrettably he had

now retired but the foreign victim was able to

talk to a staff assistant to the Deputy Attorney

General himself on March 4.

As soon as the foreign victim identified himself

the staff assistant said he knew all about

the case—apparently it had become quite

notorious among senior officials. The foreign

victim gently pointed out that the conclusion

Letter from Attorney General announcing result of intensive investigation

of his superior’s letter directly contradicted

the buyer’s sworn testimony. The assistant

stated that witnesses often lie in court, so one

could not rely on this testimony to implicate

the Assistant Prosecutor.

This struck the foreign victim as a rather odd

view given that prosecutors every day use

such testimony to send criminals to prison.

The foreign victim reluctantly concluded that

the Attorney General’s staff was determined

to whitewash this series of dishonest actions

no matter what the facts.

MORE UNEXPECTED TESTIMONY

At about this time a legal change moved

responsibility for this type of complaint to the

Prime Minister. Also by chance the Thai coowner

had the misfortune to be summoned to

testify in further litigation and was asked to

identify the middleman and the reason the

middleman gave the buyer for the sale’s

urgency. The co-owner confirmed the

Assistant Prosecutor had indeed been the gobetween

in the sale of the land and that the

reason she gave the buyer was indeed because

the land was about to be seized by the court.

In December of 2000 the foreign victim provided

a copy of this testimony to the Attorney

General and requested a re-investigation,

since now both buyer and seller had given

identical sworn testimony the Assistant

Seller’s testimony confirming role of the Assistant Prosecutor in the land sale

Prosecutor was the go-between in this dishonest

transaction.

When this request received no response after

a year’s patient wait, the foreign victim personally

visited the Attorney General’s office

near the City Pillar, where he learned that

the matter had been re-investigated and a

report sent to the Prime Minister. A phone

call confirmed the report was sitting on the

desk of a career civil servant in the Prime

Minister’s office. (The Prime Minister himself

had no reason personally to know of the

matter.)

This reinvestigation may have been another

whitewash. Or it may have been conducted

honestly, in which case the government

agency is on the hook for substantial damages

to the foreign investor. Either way it’s

a tough problem, and perhaps no wonder

that someone in the Prime Minister’s office

refuses to release the report to the victim.

THE VICTIM PLODS ON

Thai law provides one very big advantage to

victims like this intrepid foreigner. When

agents of the state refuse to perform their

duty, an aggrieved party may launch a private

criminal prosecution. The foreign victim

did exactly this, taking up the duty

(unfortunately at great expense) that agents

of the state refused. The local court accept

Publication of fair-use quotations for comment is welcome; please refer your readers for the full text to

<http://pws.prserv.net/studies>. For reproduction rights of any other type or for any other purpose please fax

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ed it and handled it in exemplary fashion,

even issuing an arrest warrant for the defendant

who at one point attempted to avoid

appearing.

On May 22, 2002, the court convicted the Thai

co-owner of swindling under Section 352 of

the Criminal Code, which shows that the

prosecutor’s decision not to litigate was at the

least suspect and at worst a criminal act. The

Assistant Prosecutor remains at liberty to collude

in frauds against other foreign investors.

The foreign victim remains convinced that the

prosecutorial staff in the small provincial

office where this occurred evaded their duty

in order to protect a criminal in their midst.

The truth may lie in the suppressed investigation

report now sitting in the Prime

Minister’s office.

Unfortunately the criminal conviction has

only token value, since the foreign victim’s

laundered assets are now irretrievably in the

hands of dummies.

CONCLUSION

Justice rides a slow horse everywhere. In fact

this type of criminal activity and criminal

coverup occur in the foreign victims’ homeland

as well. But there the perps in such

crimes and coverups go to prison, an outcome

foreigners find more congenial to their investment

decisions and which were optimistically

expected in Thailand as well. When the local

perps and their high-level protectors in this

case go to prison in Thailand, foreign

investors will surely take favorable notice.

NEXT INSTALMENT: A STATE-CONTROLLED BANK

INVOKES ITS OFFICIAL CONNECTIONS TO AVOID

JUDGMENT ON THE MERITS.

ADVENTURES IN THAI JUSTICE PART TWO—CRIMEBUSTERS IN ACTION PAGE FIVE

ADVEN_2.PDF ADVEN_2.QXD ADVEN_2.IDX October 15, 2003

[Heng]

Hoary old chestnut

Whats interesting is the Burnt vs the Preburnt vs the No NEVER could happen to me?

So any real Thai legal advice on this site?????

Before you jump in head first, buy yourself a condo, cash.... decorate it to your specifications (with present day goodies like LCD televisions, Playstation 2,3, X-Box, video phones, current top of the line PC and Mac, George Foreman grill, etc.) and then mothball it. If anything (or everything) goes wrong in the LOS, you'll at least have a roof over your head in your name and you'll still be able to live "the life" here (sure beats having to move back home and then spend the rest of your life whinging online on Thailand related forums). If nothing goes wrong in your 40-50 years here, then you'll have a pretty cool time capsule to sell on eBay.

[Nignoy]

This is my final submission on the subject.

First, it is my understanding that a ‘forum’ is supposed to be ‘a source of information’.  Not the only source.  That is why there are ‘search engines’.  The information I have provided was gathered from reading various sites on the ‘search engines’.  Some of what I wrote is personal knowledge and opinion.  The Thai Court ‘case studies’ I mentioned were extracted from ‘search engines’ - Not my opinion.

That said, it is my belief that the ‘more knowledge’ a person has the better is his or her ability to deal with ‘unfortunate circumstances’ that may arise.

Having read many of the postings on TV regarding the ownership of Land, and accomplishing some additional research into various subjects, I have learned that a ‘lot of the information’ provided is somewhat misleading.  As an example:  30 + 30 Land Leases, establishing a business for purpose of purchasing Land, etc.

The Thai court ‘case studies’ indicate to me that we, the ‘farang’, have no legal rights in Thailand.  Any ‘Lease’ that is drawn up is not worth the paper it is written on.  OK!  That said, all the lawyers in Thailand will be ‘on my case’!  But, we cannot ignore the ‘facts’.  There are good Thai lawyers, as the ‘case studies’ show, but they are at ‘the mercy of the court’.  When a ‘farang’ is involved with any Thai, the Thai courts will favor the Thai in all cases even to the point of ‘doctoring documentation’ by the courts, local government, etc.  The ‘case studies’ I mention are available on the internet BUT access is denied by (You no Who……….?).  By doing a ‘search’ (gave you a clue previously) you will find them BUT you will need a ‘proxy server’ to download them - So much for ‘freedom of information - in Thailand’.

Reading the comments to this post I can see that I have ‘opened a can of worms’ and have some further explanation to do.

NO!  I am not bitter.  As a matter of fact I am happier today than I have been for a very, very long time.  Hard to believe, you say! 

Whether any of the information I have provided is of any value to anyone reading this post is for him or her to decide.

So, why the original posting?  As some of you are aware, there is a site called ‘stickmanbangkok.com’ that have many, many reader submissions.  I did not know of the site until I had been in Thailand for over 3 years.  Some of the reader submissions are ‘eye openers’!  And, as I have previously stated, I have personal knowledge of ‘foreigners’ that have come to Thailand and became very disillusioned and ‘gave away’ their hard earned cash believing they had found ‘their one true love’.

Some of us are financially well off and do not have a second thought about how or where our money is spent.  There are many more ‘farang’ that have to be careful with the little money they do have.  So, when I hear ‘stories’ about these ‘poorer’ farang getting ‘the shaft’ I start feeling sorry for them.

I do not hold any ill will toward the Thai girls that are ‘taking some farang to the cleaners’.  All we have to do is look at their background.  They are looking for a way out of their miserable life.  They are taught by others in the same situation as to ‘the rules of the game’.  In stating this I believe, that ‘we’ the farang that have lived in Thailand for a period of time owe it to the ‘newcomers’ to inform them about ‘the rules of the game’ and what to expect if they do not understand the rules.  Like any ‘game’, you can ‘loose your shirt’.

Whether you that are reading this accept what I say is up to you.  I have no ‘axe to grind’.  Bottom line, I do not like to see anybody being taken advantage of - whether Thai or ‘farang’.  Yes, the Thai girls have been taken advantage of their whole life and I feel sorry for them too.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Guess I Am a real lucky guy, I was presented with a land lease that is valid for the length of my natural life, in recognition of my services to the village of Ban kud ko khan in amphur Leong Nok Tha, in 1965 the document I think it is called a chanote is registered in Yasothon and Ubon, I have not got a thai wife or girlfriend, and while not being a permanent resident in thailand we use our village property quite regularly, in the last 40 years we have had to go to court twice because the new puyai ban disagreed with the lease, we were dealt with fairly by the courts in ubon, but if we lose the lease one day, No Worries we got lots of thai village memories to look back on nignoy

[Gary A]

A fool and his money are soon parted. That is not only in Thailand. I do have a Thai wife and live in HER house. I keep a condo in Jomtien in my name for a safety net, my car is in my name and my main bank and investments are in the USA. I have westernized her house to suit me and if worse comes to worse I can walk away and not look back. No regrets as far as spending money on her property. I can assure everyone that a divorce in the USA and a split up that ended up as a common law marriage were FAR more costly. Live and learn. I am happier here than I ever was in the USA. Old men who marry young Thai women are setting themselves up to be taken to the cleaners. If you look for a wife use some judgement and think with the big head.

[Neeranam]

My concept of 'paradise' is simple - enjoy your life 'today' because 'tomorrow' may never come. I have many good experiences here in Thailand, have made many friends, both Thai and 'farang' and what I learned from them is this: Do Not worry about what tomorrow may bring because you may never see tomorrow.

Good advice. I agree with a lot of what you say - there are many guys on this forum who will probably lose a lot. I've met heaps, usually elderly guys who come to Thailand and get straight into marriage with a bar-girl. This is sad as they don't know the score. I always tell guys I know to live here for a while, at least 5 years before thinking about marriage.

I came here with 1000 pounds and no job years ago when I was in my 20's. I'm now middle aged and have had a great time here. I don't have material possessions to note but I am secure. If my wife decided to do a runner, what would I lose money-wise? Nothing.

It's a great journey.

Why not marry or find a girl with lots of cash? If your an ugly old sod, do you really expect a young beautiful girl to fall in love with you?

I still don't understand the guys who come here and marry in a year or so and then throw all there cash around.

[haha]

my take on marriage....

I know of many people who have good marriages. on the other hand, I also know of many that didn't work out. if you want scary stories, I could probably keep up with anybody. but there's something about a happy marriage that I would give my life for. if you find that right person, it is worth the risk.

ahhhh. but how to find that person? yes. the big question.

here's what I would do.

find someone who enjoys your company. someone who can sit with you for hours on end without complaining. someone who will make love with you everyday for as long as you want.

at the end of 2 years, if she is still with you - marry her on the spot.

if for some reason, it doesn't work out. ..it doesn't matter.

2 years of bliss is worth all the money in the world.

kids? ..well, I love kids. so, if kids popped up, I wouldn't mind taking care of them.

if it did turn out to be a "good" scam, I wouldn't mind. anybody that would put out for 2 years without complaining would be worth every penny. wouldn't you agree?

..imagine all the happy memories.

if you are worried about all the money that you will have to share with her if you separate, just don't show all your marbles on the table. most people don't. and that includes men and women both.

..to the audience in the back. yeah. I know. you are saying quote, "who would want to stay with me for 2 years???" my answer to that is - my parents did. so, there is hope. right?

..to the golddiggers in the back who can't wait to take this guy to the cleaners. give it your best shot.

..to the guys in the back who are wondering if I'm interested in guys. my answer is no.

my 2 cents...

Edited October 24, 2005 by haha

[Gary A]

I must admit that marriage wasn't part of my plan but things happen. I DID live with her for over a year and a half and she tolerated me without complaint. I'm quite content and hope it lasts until the end of my days. She is content living a simple life. She doesn't own even one fancy dress and has NO makeup. Not even a tube of lipstick. At 38 she is still fit and trim. She weighed 100 pounds when I met her and she still weighs 100 pounds.

[pnustedt]

As I stated previously in other postings.  If you are going to build that 'million' baht mansion on your Thai friends 'Owned' land, YOU have just 'kissed' your money GOODBYE. 

I built (or converted a Barn) on land in the UK worth about 35mill Bht - it was jointly owned by me and my ex-wife. Guess who owned it after the split?

It's not just the Thai courts that show favour and in Thailand you know the score up front - a least the "investment" can be substantially less in LOS

[alesypalsy]

As I stated previously in other postings.  If you are going to build that 'million' baht mansion on your Thai friends 'Owned' land, YOU have just 'kissed' your money GOODBYE. 

I built (or converted a Barn) on land in the UK worth about 35mill Bht - it was jointly owned by me and my ex-wife. Guess who owned it after the split?

It's not just the Thai courts that show favour and in Thailand you know the score up front - a least the "investment" can be substantially less in LOS

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Aint that the truth! The law in the UK can be an As_s at times.

[Godders]

Things may be worse than even Gary A imagines. As I understand it, under Thai law his wife is entitled to half of ALL "his" property acquired after they were married, whether it's in Thailand or Tiimbuktu. That includes the condo and the car, unless you owned both before tying the knot. Even more scarey, your wife will also have a claim on any interest on your bank accounts generated after the marriage and ditto returns on your capital investments. Scarey, ain't it. Now we know why Thais are always smiling. . .

[steveromagnino]

Things may be worse than even Gary A imagines. As I understand it, under Thai law his wife is entitled to half of ALL "his" property acquired after they were married, whether it's in Thailand or Tiimbuktu. That includes the condo and the car, unless you owned both before tying the knot. Even more scarey, your wife will also have a claim on any interest on your bank accounts generated after the marriage and ditto returns on your capital investments.  Scarey, ain't it. Now we know why Thais are always smiling. . .

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Generally this is whole matrimonial property works everywhere... am I missing something?

So... Thais must always be smiling because the law here is the same as matrimonial property law elsewhere?! Man, as a Thai I must naturally just be really stupid to not understand this phrase.

Anyway, there are MANY ways for anyone other than a total idiot to get around this; placing assets in a trust is a simple way to manage an estate; the trust would be operated as a separate entity...alternatively a prenuptual agreement... that sort of thing.

If, as I keep reading in boards like this, that Thai people are so frustrating and stupid, it sure is amusing that an uneducated bargirl with minimal non-bar girl skills is so easily able to end up with citizenship, matrimonial property and so on so easily from supposedly "smart people".

FYI I can think of a few westerners marrying wealthy Thai ladies/men that have done extremely well out of a divorce.... this idea that the court system is stacked against you.

NO.

The court system is a known quantity; do you homework...and get a decent lawyer...and maybe... just maybe you will get close to what you deserve. BUt courts worldwide are a bit of a lottery.

[Noel]

Before you jump in head first, buy yourself a condo, cash.... decorate it to your specifications (with present day goodies like LCD televisions, Playstation 2,3, X-Box, video phones, current top of the line PC and Mac, George Foreman grill, etc.) and then mothball it.    If anything (or everything) goes wrong in the LOS, you'll at least have a roof over your head in your name and you'll still be able to live "the life" here (sure beats having to move back home and then spend the rest of your life whinging online on Thailand related forums).    If nothing goes wrong in your 40-50 years here, then you'll have a pretty cool time capsule to sell on eBay.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There are other pragmatists around!

Not so sure about the mothballing/time capsule aspects, but having a fallback position that only you know about slots very nicely into my way of thinking.

Heng, I second the fundamental logic behind your post in spades.

[Heng]

Before you jump in head first, buy yourself a condo, cash.... decorate it to your specifications (with present day goodies like LCD televisions, Playstation 2,3, X-Box, video phones, current top of the line PC and Mac, George Foreman grill, etc.) and then mothball it.     If anything (or everything) goes wrong in the LOS, you'll at least have a roof over your head in your name and you'll still be able to live "the life" here (sure beats having to move back home and then spend the rest of your life whinging online on Thailand related forums).    If nothing goes wrong in your 40-50 years here, then you'll have a pretty cool time capsule to sell on eBay.

There are other pragmatists around!

Not so sure about the mothballing/time capsule aspects, but having a fallback position that only you know about slots very nicely into my way of thinking.

Heng, I second the fundamental logic behind your post in spades.

I was just playing about the toys. But yes, serious about the condo thing. There's something for everyone, from 400,000 Baht studios (concrete boxes) to 20 million Baht homes in the sky. Given the nature of a plan B home, nothing wrong with buying on the cheaper side (since all the while, you're going to be paying maintainence fees... might be best to keep them on the lower end).

[cobra]

A fool and his money are soon parted. That is not only in Thailand. I do have a Thai wife and live in HER house. I keep a condo in Jomtien in my name for a safety net, my car is in my name and my main bank and investments are in the USA. I have westernized her house to suit me and if worse comes to worse I can walk away and not look back. No regrets as far as spending money on her property. I can assure everyone that a divorce in the USA and a split up that ended up as a common law marriage were FAR more costly. Live and learn. I am happier here than I ever was in the USA. Old men who marry young Thai women are setting themselves up to be taken to the cleaners. If you look for a wife use some judgement and think with the big head.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Good advice indeed,

Personally, being horribly non-committal, I'm of the mind that renting, be it property or a relationship can be the more practical route. Live with someone, contribute to their household, rent or lease a flat, ...

I like the idea that at any time, for any reason, I can pull the plug, don't have to worry about being an absent landlord or the headache of liquidating some asset or going thru a messy divorce..

Sure, monetarily it's always better to own than rent, but if you have the money it's the more flexible option IMHO.

[jrincon17]

During my long relationship and marriage to my previous wife I spent many, many 'millions of US dollars' on her behalf to 'try' and keep her happy! Result - divorce after 35 years (she found someone 'younger').

Thats the funniest thing i've heard all day ! Nice one, you pillock!

You've put a smile on my face

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Many of Millions huh ? what are you doing in Thailand , should be in the Caribbean .

[Nignoy]

Things may be worse than even Gary A imagines. As I understand it, under Thai law his wife is entitled to half of ALL "his" property acquired after they were married, whether it's in Thailand or Tiimbuktu. That includes the condo and the car, unless you owned both before tying the knot. Even more scarey, your wife will also have a claim on any interest on your bank accounts generated after the marriage and ditto returns on your capital investments.  Scarey, ain't it. Now we know why Thais are always smiling. . .

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Cant understand all this worry about divorce I,m happily married with wife number 3, the ashes of wife number 2 are sat in an hourglass eggtimer on my computer desk, on a base of her melted credit cards, does me really good sometimes just to shake her up a little bit, having her cremated saved me the job of having to dig her up and nail her gob shut!! exwife number 1 is happily married and living in chicago,abit of advice dont worry about divorce Patience!! Cremate them everything comes to those who waits by the way wife number 3 for the last 15 years is brilliant, good cook , good housekeeper ,brilliant with cash, as we are both over 60 the looks are starting to go, but she is my soulmate and she will beat the crap out of anyone who says different!! Nignoy

[RDN]

...at the end of 2 years, if she is still with you - marry her on the spot....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Whoah! It was precisely after two years that I decided to ditch my g/f.

[Gary A]

I DID own the condo as well as the car before we married. She owned her house and land before we married also and since marital assets are supposedly split during a divorce she has more to lose than I do. That said it is always a good idea to be worth more alive than dead. She takes GOOD care of her walking ATM machine. The money comes from the USA monthly and without me all she would have is my condo, car and a small Thai savings account. YES! I'm worth far more alive.

EDIT:

After reading my post I thought it sounded a little flippant. I would not be happy to lose what I have here but as it wouldn't financially affect my lifestyle I would get over it. The hardest part would be losing the happiness I now have with her. I'm sure life would go on but I like it just like it is.

Things may be worse than even Gary A imagines. As I understand it, under Thai law his wife is entitled to half of ALL "his" property acquired after they were married, whether it's in Thailand or Tiimbuktu. That includes the condo and the car, unless you owned both before tying the knot. Even more scarey, your wife will also have a claim on any interest on your bank accounts generated after the marriage and ditto returns on your capital investments.  Scarey, ain't it. Now we know why Thais are always smiling. . .

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Edited October 31, 2005 by Gary A

[mijan24]

Was going to post this in the thread PI investigation but condider it fits here more appropriately:

Yes be wise in Thailand but don't forget you had also be wise in your own country ## as evidenced by the introduction of pre-nuptial agreements but in the main - high divorce rates and many a male is then hung out to dry by the courts which often leads to (him) being more wary on the second or third attempt. (hopefully)

Earlier on another thread I quoted the 80/20 rule and the 20% applies to business deals, marriages etc that go sour you don't read about the 80% because they are not sensational and wether they be Thai, American, European or Australian means nothing as it happens everywhere - You will hear about the 20% more here as peoples are more inclined to whinge and air their moans rather than come on this forum for example and say:

My wife is Thai I am into my 8th year of marriage and very happy of course we have our ups and downs - (more ups than downs) - we have lived in Australia and of course Thailand - we have a house in Nonthaburi (in my wifes name) We have a house in Australia (in both names). The cars & motor bike are in my names (for no particular reason if wife wanted her name on rego papers no probs).

Currently we are apartmenting in Khon Kaen wifes aunties live (look after) in our Nothaburi residence (notice the our residence). The wifes oldest son (my step son) lives with and works for my brother in Australia etc etc etc -bored yet hope ypu get my point.

Thats us (Mr & Mrs M24) in a nutshell we are married and also good friends ( I still look at young Thai girls and think how beautiful they are) although would not change places with anyone, wait a moment might get a PI to check on wifey as I had to make my own cup of tea this morning she (the one to be obeyed) is having a sleep-in shhh.