Employer Refusing To Hand Over A Copy Of The Contract

[Deserted]

Hi all, I've been in Thailand a few months and recently was involved in a car accident. It is beginning to look like I cannot get the medical attention I need here unless I am prepared to foot a 300,000 baht bill, and unfortunately my employer won't hand over a copy of the contract I signed, so that I can see exactly where i stand, as I may need to go back home to get medical attention I need.

Do I have a right to have a copy of the contract I signed, what is the ruling on this please.

[thaicbr]

A couple of questions.

1) do you have a work permit

2) If yes. Are you paying tax and social security (approx 700b SS, tax depends on your earnings) You should have a tax number/card.

3) Do you have any medical insurance included in your initial contract, Bupa etc (you should have a card)

If the answer to all 3 is no then that's why your not getting the contract because You don't have a legal contract.

If 1 & 2 then you should be covered for treatment under the Thai health care system (which is NOT as bad as people say)

If the answer is yes to all three. then You can threaten your employer with Labour court if he does not give you the contract conditions.

And if it's 300,000b worth of treatment you must be well <deleted>+ked up (which is strange if you can travel). That's pretty expensive.

Edited July 21, 2011 by thaicbr

[Deserted]

It's only government health insurance. I am able to work but have lost full use of one of my limbs. There is no straightforward procedure to correct it, owing to its nature and I do not want to pick up a large bill when my employer hasn't got the decency to hand over a contract.. Work visa process is only 3 weeks old. Permit is coming next week, so they claim.

Edited July 21, 2011 by Deserted

[Ijustwannateach]

I'm sorry to say that until you get that work permit, you are in a bit of legal limbo. While it is not illegal to work IF the actual work permit has REALLY been applied for (a big if, if they are not showing you the contract), I have my doubts over how much support the labour department will offer you, or whether your employers have any other obligations to you to finish the process that will be enforced. At the moment, you are probably looking to them like a huge liability and they would probably want to dump you as soon as possible. (I'm sorry to say this, but that's how it probably is- you really had bad timing with that accident).

If the car was a company car on a working trip or something like that, you could probably sue for some kind of worker's comp (but not sure about this).

I think it will work out to a matter of math. Will it cost them more to pay for everything to get fixed for you, or to pay whatever fine might occur for failing to follow through, and then losing time until they find your replacement? Will it cost you more to pay legal fees for a lawyer to go through a court case to force THEM to pay your med bills (keeping in mind that if you don't get treatment soon it may make things more expensive as time passes), or simply to find the money somehow as soon as possible and swallow the loss, while *possibly* keeping your job in the process?

None of these are ideal choices for any of the parties involved, I know.

If *I* were you, I'd save the limb ASAP - just common sense, really. The risk of losing use of it permanently is just too expensive, priceless, even. Beg or borrow what you don't have from family (or even your employers- that should give them a conundrum... how to deny you the loan without admitting they intend to get rid of you...) and worry about redress and compensation later when your limb is working again.

[Deserted]

To expand, though I don't want to go into detail, I will have some use but not full use of the limb in question, unless I go through I rather expensive procedure, as mentioned. I can work but will not be fully able-bodied. I don't know know to do. I get the feeling that if I wait, I may be able to get some help but not much, it might be too late by then, there could be complications, as has already been pointed out, I was involved in a car accident, it was no fault of the employers. I have bones that are out of place and causing complications, again they won't stop me working but I won't be fully able-bodied.

Employer claims I must wait another 3 months for government insurance to come through.What I really want to know is why is my contract now being withheld? This can't be legal, surely. I am entitled to know what my rights are.

[Ijustwannateach]

Assuming the worst case- that there was never a legal contract and that they never applied for a work permit- you can *still* go to the labour department and sue. However, concurrently they will file a case against you for working illegally- it is still your own responsibility to ensure the proper papers are filed and that your status is legal (even if they make that pretty darn hard without the ability to read Thai to start with, which not all foreign workers initially have). So you might win one case but be deported because of the result of the other case- Catch-22.

To get the company to be completely honest and abide by all their obligations (or else admit fault and/or flee) I think you'd really need a lawyer working for you- and once again, is that the best use of your money? You're right about your rights, it's just that no one is in a position to help you against a hostile employer without either costing you money or potentially throwing you out of the country.

I don't know. Perhaps one of the legal and/or visa sponsors of the forum can give you some more in-depth advice- or the guys in the business subforum. Maybe there's a lawyer out there who'd do a little pro-bono work for you. This is not an issue specific to teaching, and seems to have some complex financial questions attached that I don't think most teachers deal with regularly.

[Scott]

There is generally a medical portion for the car insurance. Did you have insurance on the car?

If you decide to stay, make an agreement for a certain amount of your salary to go to the hospital until the bill is paid. It's not the best option, but it is possible.

Some years back, we had a teacher who had an accident on a bicycle and almost ended up losing his leg. It was a combination of things including poor medical treatment initially (and some bad luck along the way). It took a long time, but he did get everything sorted out and the bill paid. The school didn't make any assurances, but did talk to the hospital and he paid a certain amount every month.

His treatment wasn't a one-shot deal, it took quite a while, but it was with help from both sides that it got done.

No idea why they are holding your contract by the way.

[TerryLH]

"Employer claims I must wait another 3 months for government insurance to come through"

There is a 3 month waiting period before you can use Social Security health insurance.

If they are saying there is a 3 month wait now, that sounds like it wasn't applied for until recently, if at all.

As mentioned above, your monthly cost for Thai social Security will be 750 baht. That assumes you earn at least 15k a month. If you haven't been paying, assume you don't have it.

Thaicbr = "...you should be covered for treatment under the Thai health care system (which is NOT as bad as people say)"

Bad, but not as bad as people say?

IMO, the Social Security coverage is pretty good. I suppose it could vary, depending on what hospital you get assigned to.

"Work visa process is only 3 weeks old."

If a WP was really applied for, the Labor Office will have a copy of your contract. Ask them for it if your employer is holding out.

It will be in Thai, and may not be exactly what you think the deal is. Some places just send a generic bare bones contract to the LO. Just enough details to meet the requirement.

Good luck.

[SirDougless]

The only thing that seems to have 'deserted' you is your common sense.You get a copy of ANY contract after it has been executed. No matter what country you are in. If you didn't then don't whinge.The law in most countries helps those who help themselves.

[Scott]

Not true. Where I work, a person gets a copy of their contract if they request it. If not, it is kept on file and it is available should they need it.

[Arkady]

The key point here is that the employer is correct in saying that you can only claim medical benefits from the Social Security Fund 90 days after you were registered and started paying contributions that are deducted from your salary. That means that, if you need treatment urgently (and it sounds like you do) you need to get hold of some money to get it done. This seems a personal life crisis where you have to call in favours from any friends or family that will listen to give yourself the best chance of regaining as much use of the limb as possible. The Social Security Fund may be only a secondary source of help that you might be able to call on for follow up treatment, if your registration ever goes through. The Social Security Fund reimburses treatment to private hospitals who are members of the scheme (most are trying to bail out because they lose money on it). You have to register with a hospital that is a member of the scheme in the catchment area of where you live. The Social Security office will give you a list of the hospitals available to you.

Secondly, your employer's actions sound highly suspicious. It is outrageous not to give the employee a copy of their contract. Of course you have a right to get a copy of any legal document you have signed. Otherwise how are you supposed to know what your obligations are under the contract? Next off, it doesn't take three weeks to get a work permit. The Labour Ministry on its website guarantees a response to all applications that are complete within three days and they are able to keep within that. My latest WP renewal took only one day. If they claim it takes over three weeks, you have to realistically accept that they haven't bothered to apply for you and might have no intention of applying. Meanwhile, they are probably holding your passport. Contrary to what some posters claim you are not allowed to work until the work permit has been issued. So if you are already working, you are breaking the law and are liable to a fine and even a prison sentence. Thus, there would not be much point in seeking arbitration with the Labour Ministry as both you and the employer would be prosecuted for work permit offences, if it emerged you were already working. The Labour Court is quite fair in upholding the rights of foreigners but any benefit you might obtain from that route would be negated by the fact that you don't have a work permit. I think you need to have a heart to heart with your employer and find out, if he has any intention of employing you legally. If not, you should either look for a new job or return to your home country where you probably have a better chance of accessing good quality medical treatment at a reasonable cost.