URGENT -- Gunman kills 'at least' 80 at youth camp near Oslo

[Steely Dan]

More information is starting to come to light.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2011/07/23/uk-norway-killer-group-idUKTRE76M37M20110723

(Reuters) - A fringe European anti-Islamist lobby group said on Saturday the man suspected of Norway's gun and bomb massacre had tried to join their Facebook group on the Internet but had been rejected over his apparent neo-Nazi links.

It would appear a likely motivation is shown here. I also think it worth pointing out that he was barred from joining the anti-Islamist group, which should demonstrate that anti-Islamists are not by default neo-Nazis, to argue otherwise is both unwarranted and slanderous.

[endure]

More information is starting to come to light.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2011/07/23/uk-norway-killer-group-idUKTRE76M37M20110723

(Reuters) - A fringe European anti-Islamist lobby group said on Saturday the man suspected of Norway's gun and bomb massacre had tried to join their Facebook group on the Internet but had been rejected over his apparent neo-Nazi links.

It would appear a likely motivation is shown here. I also think it worth pointing out that he was barred from joining the anti-Islamist group, which should demonstrate that anti-Islamists are not by default neo-Nazis, to argue otherwise is both unwarranted and slanderous.

Would that be slanderous in the same way that assuming that Muslims are by default Islamists or is that a different form of slander?

Edited July 24, 2011 by endure

[Steely Dan]

More information is starting to come to light.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2011/07/23/uk-norway-killer-group-idUKTRE76M37M20110723

(Reuters) - A fringe European anti-Islamist lobby group said on Saturday the man suspected of Norway's gun and bomb massacre had tried to join their Facebook group on the Internet but had been rejected over his apparent neo-Nazi links.

It would appear a likely motivation is shown here. I also think it worth pointing out that he was barred from joining the anti-Islamist group, which should demonstrate that anti-Islamists are not by default neo-Nazis, to argue otherwise is both unwarranted and slanderous.

Would that be slanderous in the same that assuming that Muslims are by default Islamists or is that a different form of slander?

Yes it would indeed. As would any insinuation that other posters are either Islamists or racists.

[EvilDrSomkid]

After reading a lot of ABB's postings on document.no (they have set up a separate page with all his posting's) and watching his YouTube manifesto, his motivation for committing these atrocious acts is starting to become quite clear.

The video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAwp2FnRmsE&skipcontrinter=1

His postings (Norwegian): http://www.document.no/anders-behring-breivik/

[norwayeagle]

It happens because events are overwhelming.

On the other hand, the response to the Oslo bombing was immediate and well organized considering the situation.

The delay for getting to the island could be that all available personnel were sent to the bombing site. Trying to reorganize the distribution of forces had to be quite complex and confusing.

I would say this was unprofessional,,, /"homework not done by the "protecting force!

It would never happened if the "protectors did their "homework.

People do not take care of each other,so then Protecting force are needed.

and here we go !

[Moza]

OMG.

what next???????????????????.

RIP.All.

[TommyDee]

After reading a lot of ABB's postings on document.no (they have set up a separate page with all his posting's) and watching his YouTube manifesto, his motivation for committing these atrocious acts is starting to become quite clear.

The video: http://www.youtube.c...kipcontrinter=1

His postings (Norwegian): http://www.document....ehring-breivik/

Sadly its a bit like someone believing they are the reincarnation of Mickey Mouse, they too need pro help. reading this makes it even clearer that he was not qualified to be a mason and probably like dressing up in uniforms, and was a seriously sick minded individual.

[OzMick]

The actions of this Norwegian are reprehensible, without doubt. But that doesn't mean that resisting the spread (by more civilised means) of the only mainstream religion which advocates the killing of those who don't think the same way, is indefensible. If mult-culuralism is such a great idea, why is there not one muslim state that practises it? (Before you suggest Malaysia, understand that I have a bucket-load of examples to prove you wrong.)

Edited July 24, 2011 by Scott
off-topic references removed

[Scott]

I will be removing off-topic remarks. The connections to Islamic terrorism has thus far been shown to be unfounded.

References to his attitudes and behavior toward groups is permitted, but off-topic discussions will be deleted or edited out.

Let's stick to the topic and the ideology related to the situation.

[geriatrickid]

It happens because events are overwhelming.

On the other hand, the response to the Oslo bombing was immediate and well organized considering the situation.

The delay for getting to the island could be that all available personnel were sent to the bombing site. Trying to reorganize the distribution of forces had to be quite complex and confusing.

I would say this was unprofessional,,, /"homework not done by the "protecting force!

It would never happened if the "protectors did their "homework.

People do not take care of each other,so then Protecting force are needed.

and here we go !

There will be plenty of time for finger pointing, but I do not think 40 minutes to have a speciail response team arrive is unreasonable in the circumstances. Even in large metropolitan areas, a special teams response can take 10-20 minutes. Norway has a population approx. 5 million spread out over 385,000 sq.km. The police department only has 8000 uniformed officers of all ranks spread out over 27 regional districts. Every region has a special response team, Some regional districts might only have a small number of officers equipped and trained to deal with a serious incident. Once you deploy beat cops, the police are spread thin, but that is because Norway doesn't need a cop on every corner.

Utoya is in Buskerud, which has a land size of 13, 800 sq. km and a population of 253,000. The police contingent in this region is not going to be large to start off with. It is not much different in countries like Canada or Australia where a police substation might only have 2 or 3 officers out in the boonies. If a madman went on a killing spree in a small town in Australia's outback or Canada's outlying areas. the response time would most likely be hours. I don't think a comparison can be made with large urban cities with smaller land sizes. For example;

London approx 8 million, 1572 sq. km

NYC 8.2 million 1214 sq. km.

Metro Sydney 4.6 million 2000 sq. km

Metro Toronto 5.6million 7100 sq. km

These cities all have special response teams that can be deployed, but they are responsible for regions a fraction of the size of Norway.

Where criticism can be levelled is at the organizers. The lack of access to the island is questionable. What if there had been a tragic fire, how would have first responders been able to access the island or people be evacuated? There were 600-700 people on the island at the time. Transport to and from the island was by Ferry. However, the police and the medical responders had to rely on a quickly organized flotilla of small boats to respond. Look at this video and you will understand why the response was slow. There were no police boats aside from a small police zodiac.

[Chris Lawrence]

No one has all the details yet, but I don't think this is an Islamic terrorist thing.

Norway has it's own...well they are actually found in all of Scandinavia....white supremeist and Neo Nazi skinhead groups that preach a far right and white surpremist rhetoric.

They believe that thousands of years ago the "White Race" was the supreme race and the rightful rulers over all others. Due to a series of betrayals, they lost their rightful position as world rulers. They preach the supiority of the "White Race" (especially the Nordic "race") and feel the Nazis in Gemany were betrayed by the English and the Americans during WW2.

They also tell a fantastical story about how the old Nordic Gods were once the rightful rulers of the earth but have been "betrayed" by others and have had their power stolen by others...including "degenerate" Christian and of course Jewish followers.

These guys are truely delusional,often metally unbalanced, mostly poor or unemployed, and deeply dispise what they call the "degenerate Socialist governments" of Norway, Denmark, Sweden, and Finland today.

As of yet it's too early to tell, but I am personally guessing whoever did this has a connection to those groups.

We shall just have to see what it is when more details are revelaed.

But I repeat what I said before...it's really too early to tell.

Very poignant reply to what happened. Haven't read to much past this. Very sad day for Norway. Hard job for those now to pick everything up and deal with the post tragedy problems.

[EvilDrSomkid]

No one has all the details yet, but I don't think this is an Islamic terrorist thing.

Norway has it's own...well they are actually found in all of Scandinavia....white supremeist and Neo Nazi skinhead groups that preach a far right and white surpremist rhetoric.

They believe that thousands of years ago the "White Race" was the supreme race and the rightful rulers over all others. Due to a series of betrayals, they lost their rightful position as world rulers. They preach the supiority of the "White Race" (especially the Nordic "race") and feel the Nazis in Gemany were betrayed by the English and the Americans during WW2.

They also tell a fantastical story about how the old Nordic Gods were once the rightful rulers of the earth but have been "betrayed" by others and have had their power stolen by others...including "degenerate" Christian and of course Jewish followers.

These guys are truely delusional,often metally unbalanced, mostly poor or unemployed, and deeply dispise what they call the "degenerate Socialist governments" of Norway, Denmark, Sweden, and Finland today.

As of yet it's too early to tell, but I am personally guessing whoever did this has a connection to those groups.

We shall just have to see what it is when more details are revelaed.

But I repeat what I said before...it's really too early to tell.

Very poignant reply to what happened. Haven't read to much past this. Very sad day for Norway. Hard job for those now to pick everything up and deal with the post tragedy problems.

Unfortunately, he is wrong in that this was not a neonazi attack. He is not a White Power follower.

In fact, in his writings, he reject ethnocentrism and focuses on monoculturalism.

You know, it is ironic that my spellchecker does not recognize the word 'monoculturalism', It suggests: 'multiculturalism' as correct spelling.

Th perp's main gripe is with multiculturalism and its facilitators. He attacked a political indoctrination camp of a party which he regards as those facilitators.

How he managed to become a mason is a mystery.

[Travel2003]

It happens because events are overwhelming.

On the other hand, the response to the Oslo bombing was immediate and well organized considering the situation.

The delay for getting to the island could be that all available personnel were sent to the bombing site. Trying to reorganize the distribution of forces had to be quite complex and confusing.

I would say this was unprofessional,,, /"homework not done by the "protecting force!

It would never happened if the "protectors did their "homework.

People do not take care of each other,so then Protecting force are needed.

and here we go !

They have done their homework.

You have not.

All Police forces in the west have done their homework, with ineractions between the countries, lessons learned, etc.

The police procedures are getting more and more streamlined between many countries, with basically the same procedures for the various tasks.

Based upon what has been experienced within the different countries over time.

This particular case was on an island.

An island in a midle of a lake, out in the countryside 30-32 KM from Oslo.

As stated in media many a time, the main issue here was to find transportation for the police to the island.

They do not have boats on st.by all over the kingdom.

Surely mistakes were made, and will be made again and again, from the most professional people.

Tactical and sometimes strategic mistakes are made.

Let us wait for the reports and the lessons learned to be published.

[Travel2003]

From Police log:

17.27: Shots reported fired at Utøya to Nordre Buskerud police distrikt.

17.30: Operations central in Oslo police distrikt received the message as well.

17.38: Oslo police distrikt receives request for SWAT from Nordre Buskerud police distrikt.

17.52: First Police patrol arrive the area - must wait for prober boat.

18.03: Boat on it's way reported.

18.09: SWAT arrives.

18.25: SWAT land on the island.

18.27: Gunman arrested.

The entire operation takes exactly 60 minutes,

including waiting for boat and the SWAT to move from Oslo (prox 30-32 Km) to operations area.

[EvilDrSomkid]

OK, glad that has been cleared up.

[Lite Beer]

REU: NORWAY POLICE SAYS GUNMAN CLAIMS TO HAVE ACTED ALONE IN NORWAY ATTACKS, POLICE STILL INVESTIGATING/via@mpoppel

REU: Norway police say they have no other suspects/via@mpoppel

Oslo police said 30 people were injured in the bomb attack, 67 injured on Utoya/via@mpoppel

[Lite Beer]

Lawyer: Suspect in bombing, shooting wanted to attack Norwegian society to change it/via@BreakingNews

Norwegian Police: Suspect admits attacks but denies he has broken the law/via@SkyNewsBreak

[Jingthing]

Denies he broke the law? Is he building an INSANITY defense?

[Tanaka]

From Police log:

17.27: Shots reported fired at Utøya to Nordre Buskerud police distrikt.

17.30: Operations central in Oslo police distrikt received the message as well.

17.38: Oslo police distrikt receives request for SWAT from Nordre Buskerud police distrikt.

17.52: First Police patrol arrive the area - must wait for prober boat.

18.03: Boat on it's way reported.

18.09: SWAT arrives.

18.25: SWAT land on the island.

18.27: Gunman arrested.

The entire operation takes exactly 60 minutes,

including waiting for boat and the SWAT to move from Oslo (prox 30-32 Km) to operations area.

Norwegian police do not have helicopters?

[norwayeagle]

It happens because events are overwhelming.

On the other hand, the response to the Oslo bombing was immediate and well organized considering the situation.

The delay for getting to the island could be that all available personnel were sent to the bombing site. Trying to reorganize the distribution of forces had to be quite complex and confusing.

I would say this was unprofessional,,, /"homework not done by the "protecting force!

It would never happened if the "protectors did their "homework.

People do not take care of each other,so then Protecting force are needed.

and here we go !

There will be plenty of time for finger pointing, but I do not think 40 minutes to have a speciail response team arrive is unreasonable in the circumstances. Even in large metropolitan areas, a special teams response can take 10-20 minutes. Norway has a population approx. 5 million spread out over 385,000 sq.km. The police department only has 8000 uniformed officers of all ranks spread out over 27 regional districts. Every region has a special response team, Some regional districts might only have a small number of officers equipped and trained to deal with a serious incident. Once you deploy beat cops, the police are spread thin, but that is because Norway doesn't need a cop on every corner.

Utoya is in Buskerud, which has a land size of 13, 800 sq. km and a population of 253,000. The police contingent in this region is not going to be large to start off with. It is not much different in countries like Canada or Australia where a police substation might only have 2 or 3 officers out in the boonies. If a madman went on a killing spree in a small town in Australia's outback or Canada's outlying areas. the response time would most likely be hours. I don't think a comparison can be made with large urban cities with smaller land sizes. For example;

London approx 8 million, 1572 sq. km

NYC 8.2 million 1214 sq. km.

Metro Sydney 4.6 million 2000 sq. km

Metro Toronto 5.6million 7100 sq. km

These cities all have special response teams that can be deployed, but they are responsible for regions a fraction of the size of Norway.

Where criticism can be levelled is at the organizers. The lack of access to the island is questionable. What if there had been a tragic fire, how would have first responders been able to access the island or people be evacuated? There were 600-700 people on the island at the time. Transport to and from the island was by Ferry. However, the police and the medical responders had to rely on a quickly organized flotilla of small boats to respond. Look at this video and you will understand why the response was slow. There were no police boats aside from a small police zodiac.

Thanks for the reply..I have the knowledge to say what am saying!

There should have been a backup( or 3) !

If you are A and OR have been A special soldier for Yrs ,you would know what am saying!

1st.The government building(and surroundings) has not been secured well enough .

2nd When this happened they should know they had a big "event at Utøya ( and there might be an attack nr 2 (or more) (specially there)!

3rd It should not have happened in the first place if they knew their Job!

4ht do i need to say more?! All in all ,,"homework not done and security not maintained!

Ok i say this just to be polite : Professional Guards where not in place at Utøya,and to be that (professional)you live by it 24 hours a day yr in yr out,,,(practice /train every day)

Think Firefighters! But faar more

And please i know you say what you say is in the best meaning.But Though,don't make a coverup or excuses for the "lawmen ...

Job not done period !

[norwayeagle]

It happens because events are overwhelming.

On the other hand, the response to the Oslo bombing was immediate and well organized considering the situation.

The delay for getting to the island could be that all available personnel were sent to the bombing site. Trying to reorganize the distribution of forces had to be quite complex and confusing.

I would say this was unprofessional,,, /"homework not done by the "protecting force!

It would never happened if the "protectors did their "homework.

People do not take care of each other,so then Protecting force are needed.

and here we go !

They have done their homework.

You have not.

All Police forces in the west have done their homework, with ineractions between the countries, lessons learned, etc.

The police procedures are getting more and more streamlined between many countries, with basically the same procedures for the various tasks.

Based upon what has been experienced within the different countries over time.

This particular case was on an island.

An island in a midle of a lake, out in the countryside 30-32 KM from Oslo.

As stated in media many a time, the main issue here was to find transportation for the police to the island.

They do not have boats on st.by all over the kingdom.

Surely mistakes were made, and will be made again and again, from the most professional people.

Tactical and sometimes strategic mistakes are made.

Let us wait for the reports and the lessons learned to be published.

..You, for sure have no knowledge in what am talking about..and many few have !! Good day

[norwayeagle]

From Police log:

17.27: Shots reported fired at Utøya to Nordre Buskerud police distrikt.

17.30: Operations central in Oslo police distrikt received the message as well.

17.38: Oslo police distrikt receives request for SWAT from Nordre Buskerud police distrikt.

17.52: First Police patrol arrive the area - must wait for prober boat.

18.03: Boat on it's way reported.

18.09: SWAT arrives.

18.25: SWAT land on the island.

18.27: Gunman arrested.

The entire operation takes exactly 60 minutes,

including waiting for boat and the SWAT to move from Oslo (prox 30-32 Km) to operations area.

I answer you to be polite .The Specials should have been there from the day 1 they opened the gathering !

[OccamsRazor]

I answer you to be polite .The Specials should have been there from the day 1 they opened the gathering !

With that reasoning than I guess every gathering anywhere, anytime needs to have special forces/SWAT covering it. Didn't know Norway was a police state.

[norwayeagle]

From Police log:

17.27: Shots reported fired at Utøya to Nordre Buskerud police distrikt.

17.30: Operations central in Oslo police distrikt received the message as well.

17.38: Oslo police distrikt receives request for SWAT from Nordre Buskerud police distrikt.

17.52: First Police patrol arrive the area - must wait for prober boat.

18.03: Boat on it's way reported.

18.09: SWAT arrives.

18.25: SWAT land on the island.

18.27: Gunman arrested.

The entire operation takes exactly 60 minutes,

including waiting for boat and the SWAT to move from Oslo (prox 30-32 Km) to operations area.

Norwegian police do not have helicopters?

Hola Sensei...well they do,but am very glad asked and that you find this a "bit un professional !

Thanks for your awaken mind

[norwayeagle]

I answer you to be polite .The Specials should have been there from the day 1 they opened the gathering !

With that reasoning than I guess every gathering anywhere, anytime needs to have special forces/SWAT covering it. Didn't know Norway was a police state.

It has nothing to do with being a police state or not...it's about securing the people with professionals.Not by police

Ps: A police state we all have,every single country if u ask me! Guess you know what the Police has for job,,,Does it work? do they protect you or the wrongdoers? Do they come when needed? Puppies

[Lite Beer]

Norway suspect says attacks were 'necessary'

Anders Breivik defends youth camp shooting and Oslo bomb blast that left at least 92 people dead, his lawyer says

The man suspected of a bombing and shooting spree in Norway has called his deeds "atrocious but ... necessary," his lawyer has said.

In an interview with TV2 news on Saturday, Geir Lippestad, who is representing 32-year-old Anders Breivik, said his client was willing to explain himself in a court hearing on Monday.

Lippestad said: "He has said that he believed the actions were atrocious, but that in his head they were necessary."

A judge will decide at the hearing whether to keep the suspect in detention pending trial.

Source:

Al Jazeera and agencies--2011-07-24--

Continued http://english.aljazeera.net/news/europe/2011/07/201172475828109599.html?utm_content=automateplus&utm_campaign=Trial5&utm_source=SocialFlow&utm_term=tweets&utm_medium=MasterAccount

[OccamsRazor]

It has nothing to do with being a police state or not...it's about securing the people with professionals.Not by police

Ahh, mercenaries.

[Travel2003]

From Police log:

17.27: Shots reported fired at Utøya to Nordre Buskerud police distrikt.

17.30: Operations central in Oslo police distrikt received the message as well.

17.38: Oslo police distrikt receives request for SWAT from Nordre Buskerud police distrikt.

17.52: First Police patrol arrive the area - must wait for prober boat.

18.03: Boat on it's way reported.

18.09: SWAT arrives.

18.25: SWAT land on the island.

18.27: Gunman arrested.

The entire operation takes exactly 60 minutes,

including waiting for boat and the SWAT to move from Oslo (prox 30-32 Km) to operations area.

Norwegian police do not have helicopters?

Hola Sensei...well they do,but am very glad asked and that you find this a "bit un professional !

Thanks for your awaken mind

The issue regarding helicopters have also been covered in the Norwegian media (by the Police).

The desicion in regards to use the helicopter or not was taken, based upon time, logistics, etc.

Im not sure if Norwayeagle is Norwegian, but if you are, you should be able to read this in the Norwegian media.

SWAT or armed guards on every gathering.

How many must be gathered, before armed personnel should be present?

Name one single country, in the histroy of the world, where that has been feasable.

edit due to spelling

Edited July 24, 2011 by Travel2003

[Scott]

Inflammatory posts have been removed. Please restrict your comments to the thread and the information presented, not about the poster making the comment.

[Lite Beer]

BREAKING -- Norwegian media: Armed police carry out raid in north of Oslo in connection with attacks, no other details/via@mpoppel

Reuters: Local paper reports armed Norwegian police staging operation in Oslo linked to Friday's attacks/via@SkyNewsBreak

Police official tells local paper: "I can confirm that we have a response to an address in Oslo. This is related to the explosion Friday."/via@mpoppel

Reuters sources: Police counter-terrorism force 'Delta' carrying out Oslo operation/via@mpoppel

Norwegian paper: The area of the raid is not blocked off, quiet at the scene, but press asked to stay away/via@mpoppel