Thailand Vs Cambodia

[cardholder]

perhaps you'll have a bit more respect for the Thai people you choose to live amongst.

I have the utmost respect for them, thank you very much.

Good to hear. I don't want to get in an argument with you - I happen to agree with the vast majority of your posts, but that one did come over a little condescending. At the time of the Khmer empire nobody was Thai. The country didn't exist. My wife has remarked in the past that if the border was 50km north of where it is now she would be Cambodian, and our house would be in that country. She does so with relief - not out of any scorn for Cambodians, but simply because her family escaped the horrors of recent Cambodian history. Conversely, if the border was 50km south of where it is, all those people would be Thai. No one has "come from" anywhere else. Their families have farmed the same land for many generations. They all speak the language that history has given them, and they all have the nationality that history has given them. A Khmer speaking Thai has as much right to be Thai as one whose ancestors came from Sukhothai, Chiang Mai, Nakorn Panom or Songkhla.

I agree with you completely, and apologise if my earlier post was taken the wrong way, it wasn't meant as in insult, it came from actual real experience of what happens when you ask a local a thought provoking question, and not just an unknown perception.

The topic title is flawed "Thailand vs Cambodia" .... at grass roots level there is no conflict between these two nations, I have a border crossing just up the road from me where Cambodians are allowed through to get medical treatment at our local hospital as the facilities on their side are dire, and its no questions asked. We used to have a weekly market in no-mans-land for the Thai locals to buy Cambodian produce and they mixed together just fine, as they are just people getting along with their lives as best they can.

The only "Thailand vs Cambodia" that goes on is caused by the machinations of the real or wannabe power brokers of both countries.

I actually disagree. This is not about respect, it is about realism.

I respect many Thais, there are many I do not.

Some of those that I do not respect are the 3 wives who refused to accompany their partners on the upcoming Angkor Wat trip.

One of those is the missus' sister who has taken the pig-headed, brain-washed, ignorant approach of "Cambodia is bad, it wants to take Preah Vihaar from Thailand and it shoots at our soldiers".

I know for a fact that she is not an isolated case so please do not preach respect. Respect has to be earned and my missus, for example and amongst others, earned my respect by agreeing to go to Cambodia with an open mind and judging things as she found them.

She is 100% Thai (or part Khmen in my book ) and as blindly loyal as anyone. However, there were a couple of instances in Siem Reap where she said "Why can't my country do this/be like this?". She even suggest looking at the option of employing Cambodians.

Do not ask or expect me to show respect to anyone with an ignorant, bigoted perspective - Thai or Falang !!

[thequietman]

If you want to get one of the locals around these parts stuck in a logic loop, ask them if they are Thai or not, they will insist quite vehemently that they are to the bone, 100%.

Then ask them why they speak Khmen.

They really can't stand being reminded of where they come from and all that it entails, hence the animosity.

What do you mean "where they come from"? Chances are they, and their ancestors for thousands of years back, have come from within a few km of the same place they are now in. You might try asking an Irish person, living in Ireland, if they are Irish or not. And if so, then why are they speaking English? When you get out of hospital then perhaps you'll have a bit more respect for the Thai people you choose to live amongst.

[poanoi]

What do you mean "where they come from"? Chances are they, and their ancestors for thousands of years back, have come from within a few km of the same place they are now in.

Chances are good that their ancestors were kidnapped from Cambodia and relocated into Thailand as little as a couple of hundred years ago.

[IMA_FARANG]

No. but if you even have a basic idea of the history of the three areas that are now called Myammar (Burma), Cambodia, and Thailand you will know that armies marched back and forth across what is now Thailand either from Burma (the west) or Cambodia (the east) for at least a thousand years.

That's because the land is basically flat and the east-west direction (or vice versa)is the natural route for armies to travel.

It just depends who was strong and who was weak at any particular time.

And Thailand was always in the middle, so whoever was going where ran over the Thais.

The memory of those times is still there for the Thais.

To be fair however, there were periods when the Thais (even if they didn't call themselves Thais then) were strongest...and the Cambodians and Burmese had to watch out for the Thai armies.

[Thaddeus]

I respect many Thais, there are many I do not.

Some of those that I do not respect are the 3 wives who refused to accompany their partners on the upcoming Angkor Wat trip.

One of those is the missus' sister who has taken the pig-headed, brain-washed, ignorant approach of "Cambodia is bad, it wants to take Preah Vihaar from Thailand and it shoots at our soldiers".

I know for a fact that she is not an isolated case so please do not preach respect. Respect has to be earned and my missus, for example and amongst others, earned my respect by agreeing to go to Cambodia with an open mind and judging things as she found them.

Oops, sorry if I scratched a sore spot my friend.

Unfortunately the brain-washed xenophobes do exist, I'm probably just lucky not to be in close contact with most of them.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to the up-coming expedition to fill in some gaps.

[DP25]

However, there were a couple of instances in Siem Reap where she said "Why can't my country do this/be like this?". She even suggest looking at the option of employing Cambodians.

What instances were those?

[cardholder]

No. but if you even have a basic idea of the history of the three areas that are now called Myammar (Burma), Cambodia, and Thailand you will know that armies marched back and forth across what is now Thailand either from Burma (the west) or Cambodia (the east) for at least a thousand years.

That's because the land is basically flat and the east-west direction (or vice versa)is the natural route for armies to travel.

It just depends who was strong and who was weak at any particular time.

And Thailand was always in the middle, so whoever was going where ran over the Thais.

The memory of those times is still there for the Thais.

To be fair however, there were periods when the Thais (even if they didn't call themselves Thais then) were strongest...and the Cambodians and Burmese had to watch out for the Thai armies.

I think we are all debating the same point - which is (I think) that borders are artificial boundaries i.e. the last thousand years will have seen many changes to those 'borders'. I think this will have resulted in Thais near Cambodian borders having some (blood) connection with Khmers - also true of other border areas. I can accept that Cambodians near the Thai border may be very different to those in central Cambodia - although I have no personal knowledge of this.

[cardholder]

I respect many Thais, there are many I do not.

Some of those that I do not respect are the 3 wives who refused to accompany their partners on the upcoming Angkor Wat trip.

One of those is the missus' sister who has taken the pig-headed, brain-washed, ignorant approach of "Cambodia is bad, it wants to take Preah Vihaar from Thailand and it shoots at our soldiers".

I know for a fact that she is not an isolated case so please do not preach respect. Respect has to be earned and my missus, for example and amongst others, earned my respect by agreeing to go to Cambodia with an open mind and judging things as she found them.

Oops, sorry if I scratched a sore spot my friend.

Unfortunately the brain-washed xenophobes do exist, I'm probably just lucky not to be in close contact with most of them.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to the up-coming expedition to fill in some gaps.

Thad, not your scratch mate .

I took exception to ballpoint who seemed to be suggesting that we, as humble, unworthy Falang, should automatically respect our Thai hosts with whom we are so fortunate to co-habitate.

(I accept a degree of poetic licence in the above statement).

When minded to be so, the Thais are the worst xenophobes I have come across - usually because it is xenophobia borne out ignorance, lack of education and indoctrination. An unjustified superiority complex is unattractive in any race.

I will add the usual caveat that I am here because of the many things that I do love about Thais and Thailand.

Interesting thought from a good friend - "I wonder what would have happened if I had discovered Cambodia before Thailand ?

[cardholder]

However, there were a couple of instances in Siem Reap where she said "Why can't my country do this/be like this?". She even suggest looking at the option of employing Cambodians.

What instances were those?

One was to do with cleanliness where there were several gangs of municipal workers going round tidying up litter and rubbish.

I think the other was to do with the ability of young Cambodians to speak English (and recognise that there was a commercial advantage in being able to do so). I cannot be sure but I had taken the inference to relate to the Cambodian kids' willingness/enthusiasm/encouragement to learn English - something that my missus claimed that many Thais were too lazy to do.

I will stand corrected but I believe that some schools in our locality still teach Khmen.

[mario299]

I will stand corrected but I believe that some schools in our locality still teach Khmen.

Cardholder

My step-daughter is being taught Khmer in school in Prasat,, some 25 km from Chang Chom border.

[cardholder]

Cardholder

My step-daughter is being taught Khmer in school in Prasat,, some 25 km from Chang Chom border.

Hi Mario,

It was a pleasure meeting you at Starbeams last week.

What benefits do you see of your step-daughter learning Khmen or (Khmer?).

Can I ask how old she is and is she taught English ?

[ballpoint]

...

I took exception to ballpoint who seemed to be suggesting that we, as humble, unworthy Falang, should automatically respect our Thai hosts with whom we are so fortunate to co-habitate.

(I accept a degree of poetic licence in the above statement).

When minded to be so, the Thais are the worst xenophobes I have come across - usually because it is xenophobia borne out ignorance, lack of education and indoctrination. An unjustified superiority complex is unattractive in any race.

I will add the usual caveat that I am here because of the many things that I do love about Thais and Thailand.

Interesting thought from a good friend - "I wonder what would have happened if I had discovered Cambodia before Thailand ?

No, what I said about respect needs to be taken in conjuction with my comments on calling an Irishman English, because he speaks the language. You've got to respect someone who doesn't kneecap you when you say that to them. I must therefore conclude you are a lousy poet and your licence should be confiscated.

I believe that treating fellow human beings with dignity and respect should be the default condition, and it is disrespect that is "earned". Granted, some earn it very quickly, but I see no reason to treat, say, an elderly stranger with anything other than respect simply because other members of his race/nationality are ratbags. Once disrespect is earned, however, is another story.

[Kilgore Trout]

At the time of the Khmer empire nobody was Thai. The country didn't exist. My wife has remarked in the past that if the border was 50km north of where it is now she would be Cambodian, and our house would be in that country. She does so with relief - not out of any scorn for Cambodians, but simply because her family escaped the horrors of recent Cambodian history. Conversely, if the border was 50km south of where it is, all those people would be Thai. No one has "come from" anywhere else. Their families have farmed the same land for many generations. They all speak the language that history has given them, and they all have the nationality that history has given them. A Khmer speaking Thai has as much right to be Thai as one whose ancestors came from Sukhothai, Chiang Mai, Nakorn Panom or Songkhla.

I think you are trying to blur the line between national identity and ethnic identity. National identity is based on lines drawn by modern countries whereas ethnicity is based on DNA. Thai and Khmer are certainly different ethnically and their languages are completely different just as German is to French.

Whether or not they have a Thai passport, they may or may not be ethnically Thai. Thailand has nationals from many different ethnicities, Mon, Malay, Baman or what have you.

So at the height of the ancient Khmer empire, there certainly were ethnic Thais even though they may not of had a nation at the time.

[cardholder]

...

I took exception to ballpoint who seemed to be suggesting that we, as humble, unworthy Falang, should automatically respect our Thai hosts with whom we are so fortunate to co-habitate.

(I accept a degree of poetic licence in the above statement).

When minded to be so, the Thais are the worst xenophobes I have come across - usually because it is xenophobia borne out ignorance, lack of education and indoctrination. An unjustified superiority complex is unattractive in any race.

I will add the usual caveat that I am here because of the many things that I do love about Thais and Thailand.

Interesting thought from a good friend - "I wonder what would have happened if I had discovered Cambodia before Thailand ?

No, what I said about respect needs to be taken in conjuction with my comments on calling an Irishman English, because he speaks the language. You've got to respect someone who doesn't kneecap you when you say that to them. I must therefore conclude you are a lousy poet and your licence should be confiscated.

I believe that treating fellow human beings with dignity and respect should be the default condition, and it is disrespect that is "earned". Granted, some earn it very quickly, but I see no reason to treat, say, an elderly stranger with anything other than respect simply because other members of his race/nationality are ratbags. Once disrespect is earned, however, is another story.

Noted - and I confirm that I am more of an artist than poet. :jap:

[bangkokburning]

Some funny observations :-)

Anyway - about your trip.

Outside Mouldanakiri and Ratanakiri provs, Cambodia can be sort of barren. The roads now are much, much better - but still.

Lao might be a better BUT its just one trunk road and the trucks might get intense around UdomXai. I think that road is really busy nowadays. Maybe try the road that runs from LP down to HuayXai.

Vietnam, crazy - forget it.

[Ulysses G.]

Vietnam, crazy - forget it.

Vietnam is my favorite place to travel in SE Asia. We all do not like the same things.

[mario299]

Cardholder

My step-daughter is being taught Khmer in school in Prasat,, some 25 km from Chang Chom border.

Hi Mario,

It was a pleasure meeting you at Starbeams last week.

What benefits do you see of your step-daughter learning Khmen or (Khmer?).

Can I ask how old she is and is she taught English ?

In our small village it is mostly Khmer spoken by the villagers, but only Thai is spoken at school (in classes). My wife speaks Khmer all the time, so daughter, Nam, is constantly exposed to it. She is also taught English in school. She is going to be 15 in September, currently in 9th grade. She is very shy about speaking English, I think afraid to make mistakes, but understands a great deal.

We had a great time at Starbeams, glad to have met you as well. I'm sorry to say I've not used the term "Khmen" for the language, only Khmer or Issan.

This has been an interesting post, I love learning history.

[cardholder]

Cardholder

My step-daughter is being taught Khmer in school in Prasat,, some 25 km from Chang Chom border.

Hi Mario,

It was a pleasure meeting you at Starbeams last week.

What benefits do you see of your step-daughter learning Khmen or (Khmer?).

Can I ask how old she is and is she taught English ?

In our small village it is mostly Khmer spoken by the villagers, but only Thai is spoken at school (in classes). My wife speaks Khmer all the time, so daughter, Nam, is constantly exposed to it. She is also taught English in school. She is going to be 15 in September, currently in 9th grade. She is very shy about speaking English, I think afraid to make mistakes, but understands a great deal.

We had a great time at Starbeams, glad to have met you as well. I'm sorry to say I've not used the term "Khmen" for the language, only Khmer or Issan.

This has been an interesting post, I love learning history.

Mario,

I agree 100% about interesting post.

One comparison (this is not anti-Thai, it is what I have seen).

We have a 15/16 year old Thai girls helping out at our business. My missus (despite trying) cannot get them to to say "Goodnight, see you tomorrow".

They are capable but lack confidence to speak the words.

Two examples from Cambodia:-

8/9 year old girl approaches after one of the wats at Angkor - "Mister, you but 4 post cards for one Dollar". I say, no thank you, not want, She says, I sell you 6 post card for 1 Dollar. I smile and tell her mai mi Satang - my wife has the money. She says, without breaking stride. "no problem Sir, you can borrow from her".

She got a Dollar.

Late one night after sharing 3 carafes of red wine, with a good friend, a boy of 12/13 approached our table (at a respectable distance) and said "Excuse me Sir,would you like like to buy a book ?".

No thank you, I replied.

"Excuse me Sir, can I ask you where you are from ?"

At this point the answer can go 2 ways. Feeling mellow I said England.

After a 5 second pause the boy said....

... England,your prime minister is Mr David Cameron... and before him was Mr Gordon Brown".

He got a Dollar and, frankly, I am not sure I would have know the answer so quickly.

All slightly irrelevant - except for Mario and his family (and many like him) - how would the Thai kids at those ages compare ?

I am not trying to advocate a generation of 'Fagins' but I am suggesting that Cambodians (in tourist areas) have realised that a grasp of the English language ( as required by the ASEAN grouping) has a commercial advantage.